Author Topic: What is a Paradox?  (Read 8449 times)

Offline JBRam

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2009, 12:52:40 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

Offline Jungle Otter

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2009, 01:07:50 PM »
Speaking of paradoxes... what are they doing with the Dead Guy in the Orchid? Maybe experimenting with the time/space fly chamber on a cadaver ala Expeimental Bunny #15 that went 200ms into the future? ???

perhaps they are going to test the effect of temporal "radiation" on the recently deceased....channel the dead so to speak

Offline stimpygato

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2009, 01:13:47 PM »
If Miles has to go back in time to save his dad so that Chang meets his mom and he is born that would be a paradox



I don't like calling two of the same people occupying the same space a paradox....Plus I don't think anything would happen

I think the producers of LOST are going to pursue this time/space angle in a very geeky way (I hope), maybe calling on some cool quantum physics such as SPOOKY ACTION...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_(physics)

PS: "The Third Policeman" was a ridiculously fun forray into theoretical physics... one of my favorites of the LOST LIBRARY. Everyone who likes theorizing here should check it out! (Flan O'Brian's other book "At Swim Two Birds" is also a great, and makes your brain turn inside-out)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 01:18:33 PM by stimpygato »

Offline Walkabout V.2

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2009, 01:57:33 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.

Offline Shakey

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2009, 02:00:42 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2009, 02:11:09 PM »
Yes.  Time travel works in a fictional setting as long as the  concept remains true to the rules of its existence - just like any other fictional construct. 

Offline Walkabout V.2

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2009, 02:15:50 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.

Offline Creflo

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2009, 02:19:40 PM »
A paradox will have only occurred if a decision made by, say, the 1977 characters alters what has already been established.  For example, if Hurley was successful in changing the script to Empire Strikes Back, then his motivation for doing so would not exist.

Every action that every character is making in 1977 has always been the way it always happened.  Miles always saw himself as a baby.

There is no vagueness about W.H.H.  It's a great way to avoid paradox and complication.  Sayid always shot Ben in the chest (because he thought he could change history) and Ben was always taken to The Temple for brain washing.  If anyone makes any effort to change history, they are just playing their role in history.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2009, 02:20:51 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.

This is possible but I think in the context of lost what they are trying to present is that hey will die by Gassing not some other means,

Desmond was able to prevent charlie dying a certain way even though he would still die,  If our losties attempt to change the outcome then yes I would think that the DI would still be killed off, perhaps in a gun battle and not gassing (ms hawking saud fate course corrects)  but in this case the universe cant course correct because its course has already played out,  In mrs hawkings example (Mr red shoes) he did die by getting crushed, had she attempted to prevent that he would have been hit by a Bus, but alas she did not try that. Desmond saving Charlie was in the (desmond and charlies) present,  so he could change the way charlie died but charlie ultimately still died, and the purge (for our losties is in the past) already happened or will happen and cant be changed no matter what they do we know this because in 2004 they had been dead for 12 years.


Offline Shakey

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2009, 02:35:53 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

Offline BurkRoyer

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2009, 02:48:58 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2009, 02:53:00 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

Why did he have to be a baby without his older self seeing him,

he always did, obviously if baby miles were old enough to think coherently he would remember had he seen miles thru the window.
Thee is no looping around,

Think of it like this,

This is what happened and what they mean by whatever happened happened. they are just showing what happened.

Instead of a Loop lets just say that they have come back from 2007 and are an active part of history, perhaps they get back to the future (ha) at some point, I am not one of the writers but from what I have been shown since the show started is that we are only seeing what happened
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 02:58:47 PM by SQUIRT199 »

Offline Creflo

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2009, 02:53:36 PM »
Quote
I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.

Not according to Lost story-telling.  In 1976, baby Miles is conceived.  In 1977, he is nursing and some older guy who nobody knows is staring into the window and crying.  30+ years later, Miles is taken back to that place and time to fulfill his role in history.  It always happened.

Another example, if Sayid had not shown up in 1977 and shot Ben, Ben would've never been taken to The Temple for indoctrination to become the sneaky bastard he always was to have become.

History is written and cannot be changed.  There's nothing complicated about the fact that the established history includes displaced time travelers playing their part.

Quote
So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

That's a good point and the reason for his trepidation remains to be seen.  Seeing oneself is often cited as a dangerous proposition in time travel sci-fi, but it is not necessarily a paradox unless one tries to change history.

Offline tonysee200x

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2009, 02:55:28 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Maybe because they were just learning and did not really understand it yet? Better safe then sorry???

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2009, 02:59:53 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Maybe because they were just learning and did not really understand it yet? Better safe then sorry???

Took the thought right out of my head.