Author Topic: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?  (Read 6605 times)

Offline jphimself

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Just after Locke convinces the Others to follow him to see Jacob, the following dialog between Richard and Ben occurs:

"RICHARD: [To Ben, confidentially] I'm starting to think John Locke is gonna be trouble.

BEN: Why do you think I tried to kill him?"

(Thanks to Lostpedia for the transcript.)

I take this exchange to mean that Richard and Ben are together manipulating John into this leadership role for some unknown reason, and are now wondering if he will be more trouble than he is worth.  Perhaps this is a conclusion that Ben had already reached.

Ben, then, despite outward appearances, remains in the driver's seat, at least as master manipulator in chief.

Any thoughts on what is really going on from Richard and Ben's perspective?

Offline grizn0

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 02:51:22 PM »
Ben and Richard do have a kind of weird relationship. It being RIchard who decided to take Ben to the temple and save his life. And even before that, telling him he can be an other in the woods.

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 02:57:29 PM »
Richard is the advisor to the Leader; Ben used to be the Leader.

Offline grizn0

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 02:59:48 PM »
But I think jp is saying there is more to their relationship than just that. And I agree.

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 03:01:15 PM »
Maybe they have a special relationship because Richard saved his life?  Or caused his life to be saved?

Offline WhatThe

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 03:03:22 PM »
I don't think they're manipulating Locke into a leadership role. Richard went and visited Locke as a child before Ben was even born, which hints at him always having an interest in having Locke on the island. I do think, though, that Ben himself was trying to manipulate Locke's natural ascension to leader to his own advantage.

I think the exchange between Richard and Ben was more a reflection of Richard momentarily confiding in his past leader than a peek into some ulterior plan they have going on concerning Locke. It could also point to maybe they both knowing something about Jacob that they don't want known. That could be their shared conspiracy, I suppose.

Offline grizn0

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 03:12:45 PM »
I just keep thinking back to Walt's dream he said he had about a group of people surounding Locke about to "harm" him.

Offline opgelost

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 03:26:23 PM »
Ilana's group is there too and Widmore mentioned a big war.

Offline jib22

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 03:53:32 PM »
I think that, since John's return to the island, things are quite different between these three men. Locke oozes self assurance and determination. This leads me to think he may know more (for whatever reason) than either Richard or Ben. He is telling them exactly how things are going to be, rather than the other way around. He seems to be not only in control of things, but one step ahead of them. It's apparent they are a bit shaken by it.

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 04:25:35 PM »
Well, Richard stole his innocence, so...  ::)

Offline RM

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 05:18:06 PM »
Yeah, if Locke 2007 is the one who told Richard when/where to find time-jumper Locke with the bullet wound and what to tell him about the compass, then what does Richard really know on his own?  His previous notions about the specialness of John Locke only come from being visited by him in 1954 and having him disappear before his eyes.

They're hinting that Jacob might not even be real.  No conclusive evidence that Richard even used the name Jacob before Locke visited him in 1954 (only that the name didn't seem to surprise him).  (But somebody was sitting in the chair and somebody said "Help me" to John.)

I mostly got the impression that at least Richard knows what he's got with Ben, like it or not.  This new purposeful Locke is certainly a different persona than either of them has encountered at any other time period.

Not that Richard or Ben ever completely knew everything that was always going on, but at least they were the ones who knew more than anybody else.  Now, for the first time, there's somebody who knows more than they do.

Offline jphimself

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 05:29:17 PM »
I don't think they're manipulating Locke into a leadership role. Richard went and visited Locke as a child before Ben was even born, which hints at him always having an interest in having Locke on the island. I do think, though, that Ben himself was trying to manipulate Locke's natural ascension to leader to his own advantage.

I think the exchange between Richard and Ben was more a reflection of Richard momentarily confiding in his past leader than a peek into some ulterior plan they have going on concerning Locke. It could also point to maybe they both knowing something about Jacob that they don't want known. That could be their shared conspiracy, I suppose.

Let's not forget that when Richard tested Locke as a child, he failed the test.

Others may have a sharper memory of events in Locke's life than me, but I can't think of an independent source that in any way confirmed Locke's leadership qualities.  Mostly, the source of this is Ben.  He told John he was to be the new leader, later confirmed by Richard.  It was Ben who told him his father must die first and that he would have to die to bring everyone back to the Island.

Suppose Jacob does not exist.  That he was totally a fiction of Ben and other leaders used to keep the group in line.  Suppose further that when John "sees" Jacob, that tells Ben that he is the most susceptible person to Ben's constant suggestions of his leadership qualities.  As we all know, until this return to the Island, John was never a leader.  He learned his leadership skills during his time on Island as he grew into his new Ben-given identity.

I still think that the short conversation between Ben and Richard could not have occurred if they had absolutely no control over John's assent to leadership.  Saying that he is going to be trouble for them implies that they had other choices and that somehow they still have control over the bigger picture and may be using John as the figurehead who will be available to be sacrificed in whatever conflict lies ahead.

Offline jphimself

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 05:37:08 PM »
One further thought...When John says he is going to kill Jacob, he may be telling us that he knows there is no Jacob and that he is going to become the supreme Jacob-killing Leader par excellence.  That is, even though he was manipulated into leadership, he has now assumed the full kick-all potential to truly become the real leader of this Island band for this epoch.

Offline Shivy

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 06:19:03 PM »
I don't know where this show is going with these 3

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What Is The True Nature of Richard and Ben's Relationship?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 06:25:03 PM »
I just keep thinking back to Walt's dream he said he had about a group of people surounding Locke about to "harm" him.
Didn't he say "men in suits," griz?
We also know Jacob exists because we saw him!  Locke has aways had a special connection to the island.It kind of reminds me of how leaders in ancient times were connected to the land.  You could not be leader if you were lame or crippled, because your health was the health of the land.  That is why they had seven-year kings; the older king had to die for the good of the land, because the leader needed to be young and strong.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 06:27:24 PM by Novashannon »