Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x09 => Topic started by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 11:36:59 AM

Title: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 11:36:59 AM
The no time travel brigade on this board must be shucking and jiving all over the place today trying to explain last nights episode, which was awesome, and it showed what I've believed to be all along:

-Ben uses time travel to affect current and future events to his own ends.  It's the ultimate power high- to be able to change events- but how can he do it if the Universe always course corrects? Is it a temporary solution until the Universe gets it right- buying Ben some more time?  Or is the Universe not as smart as it thinks it is, and Ben can outsmart it with his time hopping? (meaning, he's the only one who has this ability?)
-It's 'good night, Irene' for the "there is no time travel on Lost" contingent.  They'll have to come up with another explanation, even the "mind time travel only" theory was debunked last night.
-Ben CLEARLY time traveled from the island to the Sahara desert in 2005.  They SHOWED YOU, and he verified the dates, so there should be no more denying and debating on this.  (no, he did not take a boat and a plane from Fiji  :D) It's amazing what people will still believe, (or not) even when they've been shown directly something that is happening. 
-Ben DID NOT mind travel, he body traveled.  If he only "mind traveled", why then the Sahara? Why would he choose that and not Tunisia or Iraq, where he ended up to do his dirty work?  He time traveled, and got his body as close to where he needed to be as he could.  They clearly do not have so much control over the time travel that they can get it exactly right, but close to the intended destination.
-Ben was wearing an Arctic style DHARMA jacket, if he knew he was going to mind travel to the desert, he wouldn't need that jacket, and if he knew exactly where he was going to end up, he wouldn't have worn it.  Clearly something happens during time travel where a cold weather jacket is needed.
-Since the reason for Ben's traveling to Iraq or Tunisia was to meet Sayid and possibly try to change events, there was no mind traveling that would make sense.  Desmond 'mind traveled' back to his flat in London where Penny was, but that was his connection to another timeline.  Ben has no connection here, other than to try to change events in the future that will affect the present, or change events in the past that will affect the present. There is no other explanation.
-There ARE multiple timelines in this show, just accept it. The timelines may not be months or even years off, they may be days difference, but there are multiple timelines.  The doctor is DEAD with his throat slit on the beach, but he is also alive on the freighter.  How can that be?  I still believe that the Oceanic 815 at the bottom of the trench COULD BE (and I stress could be) another version of the 815 that went through a time warp and duplicated itself.  I think the writers are playing with us on this idea, and they feel like they can go either way with it, depending on what the audience will accept.  It could be a setup by Widmore, or it even could be- GASP! - another version of the plane.  This would explain the tortured version of Jack, Hurley and Sayid ("we have to go back") in 2005, realizing that they are supposed to be dead and that somehow they are not synched with the rest of the Universe, a Universe that wants them, (and has fated them)to their deaths on Oceanic 815 in 2004.

All in all a fantastic episode and one which IMO sets up things in such a way that the denial theorists must play nicely in the sandbox or take their toys and go home to pout. ;D

Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: opgelost on April 25, 2008, 11:55:52 AM
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Ben CLEARLY time traveled from the island in 2004 to the Sahara desert in 2005.
?? I thought he travelled from the island on 24 october 2005 to the Sahara on 24 october 2005, just a flash froward, like all the others.

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Ben DID NOT mind travel, he body traveled.
Teleportation not time travel.

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Since he had never been to Iraq or the Tunisia before
?? He was a preferred guest in the hotel. His name was in the books.
I think he was teleported to that spot in the Sahara many times before and maybe
he has his own room in that hotel.

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The doctor is DEAD with his throat slit on the beach, but he is also alive on the freighter.
And he has weird stitches on his face, where there first was nothing and later a healed cut. I think he travels like Desmond did.

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I still believe that the Oceanic 815 at the bottom of the trench COULD BE (and I stress could be) another version of the 815 that went through a time warp and duplicated itself.
I believe it is the 815 that duplicated itself like the bunny in the orchid. But not by traveling through time.




Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: lostfan777 on April 25, 2008, 11:57:46 AM
-Ben CLEARLY time traveled from the island in 2004 to the Sahara desert in 2005.  They SHOWED YOU, and he verified the dates, so there should be no more denying and debating on this. 

I'm not here to debate your entire post, but I wanted to comment on this part.  It was MY impression that the opening scene was a flash forward.  It had nothing to do with the compound being under attack in 2004 other than his warning to Widmore that he would kill Penny to avenge Alex.  But that isn't why he went into his secret room.  He went to somehow summon Smokie.  The desert scenes are in the future (after the O6 go home) and Ben appears to have teleported, probably from the Orchid station (because he is wearing the Halliwax parka) or he may have made other stops along the way that we haven't been shown yet (that would require a parka).  But from the attack in 2004 to the desert in 2005, I don't think so.  I think you may have misunderstood the inference.

With that said, I'm not saying you're wrong about the time travel theory itself, other than that the producers have said it will be mind travel only.  But who knows, I trust them as much as I would trust Ben.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Fallybear on April 25, 2008, 12:00:53 PM
Well stated TMack. The anti time travel people are quiet today..  I wish Puff was still here. He would body slam people with this info

Puffy.... if you're lurking, come on back!!!
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
Could be different times, I'm not debating that...because we haven't been given enough info to suggest it was from 2005 to 2005 or what year he came from...but my larger point was that he "teleported" as you say, I say time traveled but at this point it's just terminology, use whatever term you want.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 12:09:02 PM
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?? I thought he traveled from the island on 24 october 2005 to the Sahara on 24 october 2005, just a flash froward, like all the others. 
Ummm...that wouldn't be a flash forward, it would be a flash present.

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Ben DID NOT mind travel, he body traveled.
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Teleportation not time travel.

As you wish.

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Since he had never been to Iraq or the Tunisia before
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?? He was a preferred guest in the hotel. His name was in the books.
I think he was teleported to that spot in the Sahara many times before and maybe
he has his own room in that hotel.
  You are correct about that, but what I was trying to say was he had no 'constant' or other mind travel connection to that area.  He went there because of Sayid, and trying to "out course correct" (i.e., outwit) the Universe
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The doctor is DEAD with his throat slit on the beach, but he is also alive on the freighter.
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And he has weird stitches on his face, where there first was nothing and later a healed cut. I think he travels like Desmond did.
No, his body is in two places at once, this is physically impossible unless you are duplicated in two timelines somehow, someway.  I don't know the answer to this but it is what the show is telling us.

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I still believe that the Oceanic 815 at the bottom of the trench COULD BE (and I stress could be) another version of the 815 that went through a time warp and duplicated itself.
Quote
I believe it is the 815 that duplicated itself like the bunny in the orchid. But not by traveling through time.
There would be no other way to do it.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 12:10:21 PM
Well stated TMack. The anti time travel people are quiet today..  I wish Puff was still here. He would body slam people with this info

Puffy.... if you're lurking, come on back!!!
Oh, he's here.  No worries, just under an assumed name! ;>)  He's time traveling on the boards.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: The Boy on April 25, 2008, 12:27:04 PM
What is the explaination behind the bullet wound in Ben's right arm when he teleports to the desert?  Anybody?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: jugdish on April 25, 2008, 12:28:08 PM
Not time travel but teleportation. There is a big difference. He used the orchid station to do it. He is not going to the future and coming back and changing events. There is zero evidence of that happening.

The doctor is dead and the boat people lied about it.

Ben went to the cave to get smokie not to travel to the desert.Even Sayid asked him when he got off the island.  Sayid knows he left him on the island, sometime in early 2005

WHo said it was a bullet wound, all we know is he is hurt.

Jumping many logic steps to push a theory you believe in. Most times the simple answer is the best answer.

It may be semantics, but it is not timetraveling to the future or past and back.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Fallybear on April 25, 2008, 12:38:32 PM
Not time travel but teleportation. There is a big difference. He used the orchid station to do it. He is not going to the future and coming back and changing events. There is zero evidence of that happening.

The doctor is dead and the boat people lied about it.

Ben went to the cave to get smokie not to travel to the desert.Even Sayid asked him when he got off the island.  Sayid knows he left him on the island, sometime in early 2005

WHo said it was a bullet wound, all we know is he is hurt.

Jumping many logic steps to push a theory you believe in. Most times the simple answer is the best answer.

It may be semantics, but it is not timetraveling to the future or past and back.


Jug...... why does Ben ask for the present date from the desk clerk? If he just teleported, wouldn't he know what year it was?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: jugdish on April 25, 2008, 12:43:01 PM
Good question there.

I think it has to do with the problem with time and leaving the island. It was the time frame he thought it was. So he was not "lost in time". But there is time issues with leaving the island but it does not land you in the future, just like the helicopter leaving the island
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 12:43:30 PM
Not time travel but teleportation. There is a big difference. He used the orchid station to do it. He is not going to the future and coming back and changing events. There is zero evidence of that happening.

The doctor is dead and the boat people lied about it.

Ben went to the cave to get smokie not to travel to the desert.Even Sayid asked him when he got off the island.  Sayid knows he left him on the island, sometime in early 2005

WHo said it was a bullet wound, all we know is he is hurt.

Jumping many logic steps to push a theory you believe in. Most times the simple answer is the best answer.

It may be semantics, but it is not timetraveling to the future or past and back.
thank you jug.  you read MY mind.  lol.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: lostfan777 on April 25, 2008, 12:45:40 PM
I believe he teleported from one place (that we haven't been shown yet, but somewhere that required Halliwax's parka from the Orchid) to another place at the same time.  He checked the date with the woman at the counter, but I think that was for our benefit so that we would know WHEN it was (a flash forward).  On the other hand, we haven't gotten to the Orchid station yet, so we don't yet know what the potential for time travel is or how much control they have over it.  They didn't seem to have total control over bunny #15, so maybe that's why Ben needed to double check the date.  But so far, we have yet to see someone physically leave a point in time and go forward or back, except during the actual travel through whatever barrier surrounds the island (the helicopter arrived a day or so after it left).  
On a similar note, I think this explains the Doc's body.  He will be alive on the ship until someone kills him and then his body will wash ashore after travelling through the warped time to arrive before he actually dies.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 12:48:48 PM
Not time travel but teleportation. There is a big difference. He used the orchid station to do it. He is not going to the future and coming back and changing events. There is zero evidence of that happening.

The doctor is dead and the boat people lied about it.

Ben went to the cave to get smokie not to travel to the desert.Even Sayid asked him when he got off the island.  Sayid knows he left him on the island, sometime in early 2005

WHo said it was a bullet wound, all we know is he is hurt.

Jumping many logic steps to push a theory you believe in. Most times the simple answer is the best answer.

It may be semantics, but it is not timetraveling to the future or past and back.
Excellent rebuttal, Jug.

I'm also curious why he asked the year. This may suggest time travel, but I seriously hope not.

Again, teleportation is not equal to time travel.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 12:50:30 PM
I believe he teleported from one place (that we haven't been shown yet, but somewhere that required Halliwax's parka from the Orchid) to another place at the same time.  He checked the date with the woman at the counter, but I think that was for our benefit so that we would know WHEN it was (a flash forward).  On the other hand, we haven't gotten to the Orchid station yet, so we don't yet know what the potential for time travel is or how much control they have over it.  They didn't seem to have total control over bunny #15, so maybe that's why Ben needed to double check the date.  But so far, we have yet to see someone physically leave a point in time and go forward or back, except during the actual travel through whatever barrier surrounds the island (the helicopter arrived a day or so after it left). 
On a similar note, I think this explains the Doc's body.  He will be alive on the ship until someone kills him and then his body will wash ashore after travelling through the warped time to arrive before he actually dies.
I'm still thinking that the freighter people lied.

I agree that the teleportation thing has its bugs. I'm wondering if he brought the parka cause he wasn't sure where he'd end up.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 12:52:18 PM
i think the teleportation thing probably rattles you a bit.  maybe he was just making sure it was the same day and not a different one.  i don't teleport and sometimes i have problems remembering what day it is.  and year.  right now i'm working on 2009, so i cought myself writing a check for april 23, 2009 the other day. 
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: lostandfree on April 25, 2008, 12:55:20 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 12:57:17 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.
i like this idea even better. 
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Fallybear on April 25, 2008, 01:15:28 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.


Why would Ben ask what YEAR it was if there was not time  travel. I"m pretty sure that is  what the writers are indicating by that statement.

I think he asked her "2005?" when she told him the date.  To me, this means he did not know what year he had teleported to.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Shakey on April 25, 2008, 01:18:14 PM
Why would Ben ask what YEAR it was if there was not time  travel. I"m pretty sure that is  what the writers are indicating by that statement.
Wasn't there also the absence of footprints around Ben in the desert?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: hackgrid on April 25, 2008, 01:21:53 PM
I think he asked her "2005?" when she told him the date.  To me, this means he did not know what year he had teleported to.

Sounds for me he wasn't to sure if something went wrong and he traveled space AND time.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: IFP on April 25, 2008, 01:31:36 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.

Ben opened his eyes, teeth chattering, gasped for air, lying in the middle of the desert in an arctic coat, sat up, disoriented, and puked. I think that's what suggests teleportation. Then the fact the he asked what year it was suggests time travel. It COULD all be a clever illusion though.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 01:32:05 PM
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Not time travel but teleportation. There is a big difference. He used the orchid station to do it. He is not going to the future and coming back and changing events. There is zero evidence of that happening.
This is just semantics.  He traveled from one location to another.  It can't be at the exact same time, or there would be 2 of him (a twin or duplicate), so if it's one second later or 15 minutes, earlier, he's time traveling.
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The doctor is dead and the boat people lied about it.
This is pure speculation by you, and just as you say there is "zero evidence" for my theory, there is indeed zero evidence for yours as well.  You say trust the simplest theory, the simplest was one that was shown to us, i.e., the doctor is not dead on the boat, but he's dead on the beach.

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Ben went to the cave to get smokie not to travel to the desert. Even Sayid asked him when he got off the island.  Sayid knows he left him on the island, sometime in early 2005
I didn't say Ben went to "the cave" to travel.  But certainly he is using some way to get on and off, whether it's inside the special room or from some other bunker or station.  Interesting that Ben didn't know what "time" he had ended up in at Tunisia, so if he didn't know, then he obviously doesn't have as much control over it as you would think. 

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Jumping many logic steps to push a theory you believe in. Most times the simple answer is the best answer.
You have assumed several steps also my friend, it seems to me that you allow yourself to do this to push your own theory, but don't allow others the same freedom.

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It may be semantics, but it is not time traveling to the future or past and back.
As you wish.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 01:35:27 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.
OMG.  Are you serious? :o
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 01:39:39 PM
Good question there.

I think it has to do with the problem with time and leaving the island. It was the time frame he thought it was. So he was not "lost in time". But there is time issues with leaving the island but it does not land you in the future, just like the helicopter leaving the island
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Could you explain?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 02:07:16 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.

Ben opened his eyes, teeth chattering, gasped for air, lying in the middle of the desert in an arctic coat, sat up, disoriented, and puked. I think that's what suggests teleportation. Then the fact the he asked what year it was suggests time travel. It COULD all be a clever illusion though.
It was December, 2004 on the island when we were watching our episode.  It was October 2005 when Ben was shown in Tunisia at the hotel counter.  Either it was a clever ruse to disguise forward time travel, or they conveniently left out and entire year and just moved the storyline to 2005.  This is very confusing to average viewers IMO.  They seem to be tapdancing around the idea of time travel.

We are nibbling around the edges, and I want to take a big bite out of it.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Austruck on April 25, 2008, 02:13:20 PM
No one would ask what year it is -- especially to a stranger -- unless they were unsure themselves. And to say the writers did it "for our benefit" makes no sense. If they wanted us to know what year it was, the worst thing to do on THIS show is to have a character ASK what year it is.

In shows and movies, to tell JUST THE VIEWERS what date it is, they often just put a crawl/subtitle on the screen: "Tunisia, October 2005."

Having Ben ask what date and then year it is was supposed to be significant. It was SUPPOSED to give us INFORMATION about SOME aspect of the show. If it's not time-travel of some variety, why else would he ask?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: opgelost on April 25, 2008, 02:17:48 PM
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It was December 2004 on the island when we were watching our episode.  It was October 2005 when Ben was shown in Tunisia at the hotel counter.  Either it was a clever ruse to disguise forward time travel, or they conveniently left out and entire year and just moved the storyline to 2005.  This is very confusing to average viewers IMO.

This is what Lost does for 4 years now. Flashes back/flashes forward. We see events on the island in 2004 and suddenly we go 20 years in the past or 2 years in the future. Were they all timetravels?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 02:19:54 PM
There is something in why he asked the year. Time travel, teleportation, what ever. I am going to retrospectively falsify any previous statements I may have made for or against the ideas, and just say that this opened a side chapter on the story.

To outright just say "no" is a bit close minded, though they that be the writers said no time travel, they did say they weren't averse to time "bending"...that implies what it says.
There is no "Heroes" time travel, but there is something more than mere Star Trekian teleportation...circumstantial evidence has been presented to assert such.


Come on, join me on the fence for this one, I've got some iced Dos Equis, hostess cherry pies, a pit going with some Cabrito slow roasting and homemade corn tortillas, just bring yer own change of underthings, we'll ride this one out... ;D
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 02:24:34 PM
Come on, join me on the fence for this one, I've got some iced Dos Equis, hostess cherry pies, a pit going with some Cabrito slow roasting and homemade corn tortillas, just bring yer own change of underthings, we'll ride this one out... ;D
i'll bring the salsa!
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 02:26:44 PM
woo hooo! could ya grab a bag of ice on yer way?


I really like the direction this epi is going, unexpected...and I'm happily spoiler free.... ;D
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Petey on April 25, 2008, 02:27:57 PM
Just throwing this out there.

Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 02:30:29 PM
Come on, join me on the fence for this one, I've got some iced Dos Equis, hostess cherry pies, a pit going with some Cabrito slow roasting and homemade corn tortillas, just bring yer own change of underthings, we'll ride this one out... ;D
Throw in some cold Heineken lites, a few Chipotle burritos, and a cuban, and I'm there!
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: opgelost on April 25, 2008, 02:34:03 PM
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Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?

Hurley was drawing eskimo's in the mental institute and Penny's people were in a cold place.
Sawyer conquered Siberia with Risk.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 02:36:27 PM
Just throwing this out there.

Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?

That is something to be addressed with some sledgeweb mind melding here...was he preparing in case he set the transmorgifier wrong?
Or is it really cold down there in his hidden room/Smokey pit?

Lets put our minds together like the Wonder Twins do their fists and ponder.....


got the Heinies etc. come on, all are invited, tis a big fence.....
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 02:39:55 PM
Just throwing this out there.

Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?


Maybe somewhere closer? The Antarctic?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Petey on April 25, 2008, 02:40:46 PM
Just throwing this out there.

Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?

That is something to be addressed with some sledgeweb mind melding here...was he preparing in case he set the transmorgifier wrong?
Or is it really cold down there in his hidden room/Smokey pit?

Lets put our minds together like the Wonder Twins do their fists and ponder.....


got the Heinies etc. come on, all are invited, tis a big fence.....

I don't think the teleportation is in the secret room...but I do think it has to be somewhere cold.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 02:42:05 PM
Come on, join me on the fence for this one, I've got some iced Dos Equis, hostess cherry pies, a pit going with some Cabrito slow roasting and homemade corn tortillas, just bring yer own change of underthings, we'll ride this one out... ;D
Throw in some cold Heineken lites, a few Chipotle burritos, and a cuban, and I'm there!
okay, but staggerlee has to sit between us!
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 02:42:42 PM
Quote
Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?

Hurley was drawing eskimo's in the mental institute and Penny's people were in a cold place.
Sawyer conquered Siberia with Risk.
Nice tie in.  That was a sweet catch.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 02:43:34 PM
Come on, join me on the fence for this one, I've got some iced Dos Equis, hostess cherry pies, a pit going with some Cabrito slow roasting and homemade corn tortillas, just bring yer own change of underthings, we'll ride this one out... ;D
Throw in some cold Heineken lites, a few Chipotle burritos, and a cuban, and I'm there!
okay, but staggerlee has to sit between us!
Come on over to the darkside.  Time travel is so much fun, I do it all of the time (in my head).  Imagine the possibilities!
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Shoeless on April 25, 2008, 02:48:14 PM
brought s'more makings  :P

I's jus' wondering how can teleportation thingie be so far away from the island??

*pokes fire with a stick*

.... an another thing ... what happened to Ben's glasses, he doesn't need them anymore?

Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 02:57:27 PM
Yay S'mores!


if it's in the S. Pacific, go to the Antarctic I say....

*swigs beer, scratches knee*

Maybe he went to Tiger Woods' Lasik guy?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 03:02:56 PM
Come on, join me on the fence for this one, I've got some iced Dos Equis, hostess cherry pies, a pit going with some Cabrito slow roasting and homemade corn tortillas, just bring yer own change of underthings, we'll ride this one out... ;D
Throw in some cold Heineken lites, a few Chipotle burritos, and a cuban, and I'm there!
okay, but staggerlee has to sit between us!
Come on over to the darkside.  Time travel is so much fun, I do it all of the time (in my head).  Imagine the possibilities!

Sittin' on the fence is not the dark side, we bridge the gap here, fence sittin', like drunken elfish mediators with discerning wit and no social graces save for our ability to converse nonsensically about topical current events in a learned yet uneducated manner, and we've horrible taste in clothing...
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 25, 2008, 03:06:54 PM
Quote
Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?

Hurley was drawing eskimo's in the mental institute and Penny's people were in a cold place.
Sawyer conquered Siberia with Risk.
Nice tie in.  That was a sweet catch.
Just throwing this out there.

Polar bear on island, Polar bear in Tunisia. Ben on island, Ben in Tunisia. Polar bear has a winter coat, Ben had a winter coat.

Maybe the teleportation station is in the Arctic?


Maybe somewhere closer? The Antarctic?


No Polar bears in Antarctica

Only penguins
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Shoeless on April 25, 2008, 03:10:22 PM
if it's in the S. Pacific, go to the Antarctic I say....
What I think I meant was, why the layover? Why not just beam directly (as close as possible) to desired location?  They're on the island before they transport, right?

Maybe he went to Tiger Woods' Lasik guy?
oic

*blows out flaming marshmallow   :'(
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 03:17:21 PM
.... an another thing ... what happened to Ben's glasses, he doesn't need them anymore?
maybe he timewarped to the past and ate more carrots to help make his eyes healthy.

**actually, he's probably just farsighted, and only needs them when he reads.  and since not much reading has been going on lately, he's without the specs.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 03:19:42 PM
good point squirt, lest it was one of Dharma's P bears, but point taken...


on the island...hmmm? them unanswered questions what's keeps us comin' back for more to the street corner that is Lost.....hehehehe ;D
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 25, 2008, 03:23:48 PM
good point squirt, lest it was one of Dharma's P bears, but point taken...


on the island...hmmm? them unanswered questions what's keeps us comin' back for more to the street corner that is Lost.....hehehehe ;D

I think it was indeed one of Dharma polar bears, it did have the collar with a station emblme on it.

But I just dont think the teleportation/time machine is actually located in a cold climate but rather going throgh it at some point it gets cold, "Like back to the future", remember the car came back thru time covered in ice?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: fieldy32 on April 25, 2008, 03:25:03 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.

Ben opened his eyes, teeth chattering, gasped for air, lying in the middle of the desert in an arctic coat, sat up, disoriented, and puked. I think that's what suggests teleportation. Then the fact the he asked what year it was suggests time travel. It COULD all be a clever illusion though.
It was December, 2004 on the island when we were watching our episode.  It was October 2005 when Ben was shown in Tunisia at the hotel counter.  Either it was a clever ruse to disguise forward time travel, or they conveniently left out and entire year and just moved the storyline to 2005.  This is very confusing to average viewers IMO.  They seem to be tapdancing around the idea of time travel.

We are nibbling around the edges, and I want to take a big bite out of it.
There was definitely teleportation that happened in this episode... time travel is still a maybe, but definitely possible. As for the December 2004/October 2005 thing, that was just because it was a flashforward. Simple as that. This was definitely an awesome episode tho.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Shoeless on April 25, 2008, 03:26:54 PM
maybe he timewarped to the past and ate more carrots to help make his eyes healthy.

 ;D  ;D  ;D  :-*
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 03:32:53 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.

Ben opened his eyes, teeth chattering, gasped for air, lying in the middle of the desert in an arctic coat, sat up, disoriented, and puked. I think that's what suggests teleportation. Then the fact the he asked what year it was suggests time travel. It COULD all be a clever illusion though.
It was December, 2004 on the island when we were watching our episode.  It was October 2005 when Ben was shown in Tunisia at the hotel counter.  Either it was a clever ruse to disguise forward time travel, or they conveniently left out and entire year and just moved the storyline to 2005.  This is very confusing to average viewers IMO.  They seem to be tapdancing around the idea of time travel.

We are nibbling around the edges, and I want to take a big bite out of it.
We've seen flashforwards many times this season already and in the last episode of S3.

No one would ask what year it is -- especially to a stranger -- unless they were unsure themselves. And to say the writers did it "for our benefit" makes no sense. If they wanted us to know what year it was, the worst thing to do on THIS show is to have a character ASK what year it is.

In shows and movies, to tell JUST THE VIEWERS what date it is, they often just put a crawl/subtitle on the screen: "Tunisia, October 2005."

Having Ben ask what date and then year it is was supposed to be significant. It was SUPPOSED to give us INFORMATION about SOME aspect of the show. If it's not time-travel of some variety, why else would he ask?

I agree. To say it is for our benefit is denial.
.... an another thing ... what happened to Ben's glasses, he doesn't need them anymore?
He only needed them for reading before.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Fallybear on April 25, 2008, 03:34:00 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.

Ben opened his eyes, teeth chattering, gasped for air, lying in the middle of the desert in an arctic coat, sat up, disoriented, and puked. I think that's what suggests teleportation. Then the fact the he asked what year it was suggests time travel. It COULD all be a clever illusion though.
It was December, 2004 on the island when we were watching our episode.  It was October 2005 when Ben was shown in Tunisia at the hotel counter.  Either it was a clever ruse to disguise forward time travel, or they conveniently left out and entire year and just moved the storyline to 2005.  This is very confusing to average viewers IMO.  They seem to be tapdancing around the idea of time travel.

We are nibbling around the edges, and I want to take a big bite out of it.
There was definitely teleportation that happened in this episode... time travel is still a maybe, but definitely possible. As for the December 2004/October 2005 thing, that was just because it was a flashforward. Simple as that. This was definitely an awesome episode tho.

Fieldy....I hate to say the same thing again BUT...if it was just a flashforward, why is Ben unsure of the year. He clearly asks the hotel clerk "2005?"  
In all the other flashforwards, the characters know what year they are in.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 03:41:30 PM
tis the crux right there Fally. I agree.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: jugdish on April 25, 2008, 03:52:42 PM
Quote
Not time travel but teleportation. There is a big difference. He used the orchid station to do it. He is not going to the future and coming back and changing events. There is zero evidence of that happening.
This is just semantics.  He traveled from one location to another.  It can't be at the exact same time, or there would be 2 of him (a twin or duplicate), so if it's one second later or 15 minutes, earlier, he's time traveling. When I drive my car to go somewhere, I do not get there instantly. Traveling time does not mean Time traveling, HUGE DIFFERENCE
Quote

The doctor is dead and the boat people lied about it.
This is pure speculation by you, and just as you say there is "zero evidence" for my theory, there is indeed zero evidence for yours as well.  You say trust the simplest theory, the simplest was one that was shown to us, i.e., the doctor is not dead on the boat, but he's dead on the beach. A guy being alive at the same time his dead body is washing ashore is not the simplist answer. I know I have no evidence for this, but it is what I believe and what makes sense to me.

Quote
Ben went to the cave to get smokie not to travel to the desert. Even Sayid asked him when he got off the island.  Sayid knows he left him on the island, sometime in early 2005
I didn't say Ben went to "the cave" to travel.  But certainly he is using some way to get on and off, whether it's inside the special room or from some other bunker or station.  Interesting that Ben didn't know what "time" he had ended up in at Tunisia, so if he didn't know, then he obviously doesn't have as much control over it as you would think. 

I never said how much control he had over it. All I have said so far is that teleportation (if that is what he did) looks like a rough ride.

Quote
Jumping many logic steps to push a theory you believe in. Most times the simple answer is the best answer.
You have assumed several steps also my friend, it seems to me that you allow yourself to do this to push your own theory, but don't allow others the same freedom.

I am not stopping you, just pointed something out. I saw evidence of teleportation, but non yet of time traveling. That is how I see it.  
Quote
It may be semantics, but it is not time traveling to the future or past and back.
As you wish.


I may very well be wrong, but this how I see it now. I can only call it as I see it.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 04:04:45 PM
"It may be semantics, but it is not time traveling to the future or past and back."

if you  follow a linear construct, yes...

Australian* Aborigines have circular time beliefs...



"Australia is key..."
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Shoeless on April 25, 2008, 04:26:55 PM
"It may be semantics, but it is not time traveling to the future or past and back."

if you  follow a linear construct, yes...

Australian* Aborigines have circular time beliefs...



"Australia is key..."
*teleported from another thread; stuffing as many marshmallows as I can in my mouth so I don't implode*   (((Stag)))   ;)

Edit: *chews & swallows* am in right thread  :o  *heads back to beach & continues search for shoes*  :-[
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: lostfan777 on April 25, 2008, 04:30:35 PM
Alright, forget I mentioned the 'for our benefit' comment, that was absurd.  I do think they haven't got the bugs worked out at the Orchid station yet and he needed to double check the time.  My opinion, final answer (for now!).
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: KateReallyLovesJack on April 25, 2008, 04:30:51 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.


Why would Ben ask what YEAR it was if there was not time  travel. I"m pretty sure that is  what the writers are indicating by that statement.

I think he asked her "2005?" when she told him the date.  To me, this means he did not know what year he had teleported to.

I see way too many holes in this whole time travel theory. I think that there is some form of teleportation going on, but absolutely not time travel. Just think about it... if your time travel 'machine' (whatever it is, at the Orchid, who knows? whatever it is) is soooo inaccurate that a) you don't know where you're going to end up and b) you don't know when you're going to get there, who in their right mind would use it? You're basically using it to get you to an unknown place at an unknown time... whats the point? That's not going to accomplish anything.

I believe that Ben dropped that line about 2005 simply to clue us, the viewers, in. Yes, we know it's after they got off the island, and yes we find out that it's right before Sayid started to work for Ben... but other than the line about 2005, we have NO time reference. Not even in the Sayid episode (4-4, The Economist) there isn't really a time frame given. It could have been 10 years from now, for all we know. The girl in it (name?) even mentions how her boss is a little old fashioned, or something to that extent, which explained the out of date pager that she used...

So, I'm still on the anti-time travel wagon, it's going to take something a LOT more solid than that to convince me.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 04:33:00 PM
"It may be semantics, but it is not time traveling to the future or past and back."

if you  follow a linear construct, yes...

Australian* Aborigines have circular time beliefs...



"Australia is key..."
*teleported from another thread; stuffing as many marshmallows as I can in my mouth so I don't implode*   (((Stag)))   ;)

Edit: *chews & swallows* am in right thread  :o  *heads back to beach & continues search for shoes*  :-[


find my spats will ya ?

not widely known, but m'mallows were the first successfully teleported objects, they're spongy! (twinkies get squished :'()...next came bunnies....they lifted them from a cosmetics lab... ;D
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: LostGirlDeb on April 25, 2008, 05:05:50 PM
I just wanted to make a very small point about what "Darlton" said about dead doc
They said not to worry to much about "who" it is but  rather "when" it is...as far as the body was concerned
This leads me to beleive that once again they are showing us that something weird is going on with time. (duh)
Faraday also says AGAIN that time is  ummmm relevant. relative

My opinion about Ben is that he is teleporting or somehow has a double ending up on the other end of the wormhole  (I don't really buy the double thing but who knows...)

But then again...I also think that the sequence of events that they showed us could be misleading
For example it "appears" that Ben walks into the secret room and ends up in the dessert in Tunisia.
I'm guessing that the two events may not be related, but just a sequence made to throw us off. (They did that in Jin Yeon as well)
On the other hand, he steps into the secret room and all of his "travel stuff" is in there....so....

ok that was my two cents  :P
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 25, 2008, 05:26:23 PM
Where are you people getting the idea that he time traveled or teleported.  It looked to me like any other flash forward.  I saw no evidence of time travel in this episode.  The only thing we don't know is how he got in the middle of the desert but we don't have any evidence of time travel yet.  You all just seem so sure that this episode proved time travel but I didn't see that proven.  I'm not trying to start a debate and I'm not anti time travel either, I'm just wondering what is suddenly making everyone so sure.  It just looked like a flash forward.


Why would Ben ask what YEAR it was if there was not time  travel. I"m pretty sure that is  what the writers are indicating by that statement.

I think he asked her "2005?" when she told him the date.  To me, this means he did not know what year he had teleported to.

I see way too many holes in this whole time travel theory. I think that there is some form of teleportation going on, but absolutely not time travel. Just think about it... if your time travel 'machine' (whatever it is, at the Orchid, who knows? whatever it is) is soooo inaccurate that a) you don't know where you're going to end up and b) you don't know when you're going to get there, who in their right mind would use it? You're basically using it to get you to an unknown place at an unknown time... whats the point? That's not going to accomplish anything.

I believe that Ben dropped that line about 2005 simply to clue us, the viewers, in. Yes, we know it's after they got off the island, and yes we find out that it's right before Sayid started to work for Ben... but other than the line about 2005, we have NO time reference. Not even in the Sayid episode (4-4, The Economist) there isn't really a time frame given. It could have been 10 years from now, for all we know. The girl in it (name?) even mentions how her boss is a little old fashioned, or something to that extent, which explained the out of date pager that she used...

So, I'm still on the anti-time travel wagon, it's going to take something a LOT more solid than that to convince me.


Sayid said something about 8 years looking for his true love?

I was wondering the sigifigance their,  if its 2005, he has been looking for Nadia since 1997?

the war and her escape with Sayids help was back in 91 or 92 no?

Anyone think anything to this? I dont even know what I am getting at here.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 25, 2008, 05:27:59 PM
I just wanted to make a very small point about what "Darlton" said about dead doc
They said not to worry to much about "who" it is but  rather "when" it is...as far as the body was concerned
This leads me to beleive that once again they are showing us that something weird is going on with time. (duh)
Faraday also says AGAIN that time is  ummmm relevant.

My opinion about Ben is that he is teleporting or somehow has a double ending up on the other end of the wormhole  (I don't really buy the double thing but who knows...)

But then again...I also think that the sequence of events that they showed us could be misleading
For example it "appears" that Ben walks into the secret room and ends up in the dessert in Tunisia.
I'm guessing that the two events may not be related, but just a sequence made to throw us off. (They did that in Jin Yeon as well)
On the other hand, he steps into the secret room and all of his "travel stuff" is in there....so....

ok that was my two cents  :P

Relative was the term used,  I believe (semantics)
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Maxor127 on April 25, 2008, 06:09:59 PM
There's a big difference between time travel and teleportation.  I don't think Ben can time travel, I think he can just teleport.  I could be wrong, but there was nothing to prove or even support any time travel theories.  The producers made the rules of time travel clear.  That only consciousnesses can time travel and that you can't change the future.  I think they're going to stick to those rules.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: LostGirlDeb on April 25, 2008, 06:16:02 PM
I just wanted to make a very small point about what "Darlton" said about dead doc
They said not to worry to much about "who" it is but  rather "when" it is...as far as the body was concerned
This leads me to beleive that once again they are showing us that something weird is going on with time. (duh)
Faraday also says AGAIN that time is ummmm relevant.

My opinion about Ben is that he is teleporting or somehow has a double ending up on the other end of the wormhole  (I don't really buy the double thing but who knows...)

But then again...I also think that the sequence of events that they showed us could be misleading
For example it "appears" that Ben walks into the secret room and ends up in the dessert in Tunisia.
I'm guessing that the two events may not be related, but just a sequence made to throw us off. (They did that in Jin Yeon as well)
On the other hand, he steps into the secret room and all of his "travel stuff" is in there....so....

ok that was my two cents  :P

Relative was the term used,  I believe (semantics)

LOL yes and thanks (sorry)...I knew that!! I did it on purpose to see if you would catch it. ;)
I was wondering why it wasn't sounding right to me LOL 
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 25, 2008, 08:15:40 PM
There's a big difference between time travel and teleportation.  I don't think Ben can time travel, I think he can just teleport.  I could be wrong, but there was nothing to prove or even support any time travel theories.  The producers made the rules of time travel clear.  That only consciousnesses can time travel and that you can't change the future.  I think they're going to stick to those rules.


This dead horse is gettin' it's beating today...

They did say they were not averse to time "bending"....take it as we may
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 25, 2008, 10:22:04 PM
My best guess (and I'm just agreeing with others who have said similar things).

Ben teleported to Tunisia. A side effect of teleportation is, or can be, time travel. They can't control the side effect. So he's not sure what date he arrives and has to ask.

He didn't teleport from the secret room, at least not in yesterday's episode. He just went in to invoke Smokie. (Can't believe I used "just" in that context). More likely he teleports from the Orchid station sometime later.

As for the parka, somebody suggested that maybe the teleportation equipment has to be really cold. Alternatively maybe there are bugs in the teleportation properties as well. Like you could end up in any number of fixed locations. If one of them's cold (wasn't the Orchid video found in Norway?) then dress warmly. You can always remove the parka if you don't need it.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 25, 2008, 11:45:09 PM
I just wanted to make a very small point about what "Darlton" said about dead doc
They said not to worry to much about "who" it is but  rather "when" it is...as far as the body was concerned
This leads me to believe that once again they are showing us that something weird is going on with time. (duh)
Faraday also says AGAIN that time is  ummmm relevant. relative

Time and the manipulation thereof, has been mentioned now COUNTLESS times in Lost by both the producers, the actors, in mobisodes, youtube videos and on the show itself.  I can't figure out what more needs to be said to convince people that don't believe.  It's almost like they just don't want to, so therefore they don't.  I'm not pushing the theory on anyone, but it's what I BELIEVE.  Just to be clear, I think teleportation would also be a very cool avenue for the show to explore, and I would love to see how they pull that off.

I  just don't get how it's so believable to some that a dude could "teleport" himself to another place and time, but he couldn't time travel there...how is one more believable than another?  They are both far out and impossible to do as we know it, so they are both skirting the boundaries of realism by introducing either on the show.  Have you or one of your friends ever 'teleported' over to the local movie theater or to New York City for the evening?

Maybe we can all just agree that time is being manipulated, and clearly Ben has found a way of mastering this through time travel, teleportation, or some other means.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 26, 2008, 12:35:50 AM
TPTB have said emphatically in interviews, and it makes perfect sense from having suffered through so many bad Star Trek time travel stories, that time travel opens up a can of worms.  Once the audience knows that the future can be changed, then nothing characters do in the present will have any meaning for us, the audience, as we know it could just be changed by a bit of time travel.

I'd come across in an interesting notion in a Star Trek novel.  Seven of Nine and Neelix end up in an alien spaceship that is a time travel ship. By accident they travel 50,000 years into the past.  The problem is, the aliens who built these time travel ships have carved up time into, like, 250,000 year blocks, and thus opened up travel between blocks of time, such that the number of people in their 'civilization' could number in the trillions, yet live on just one planet.  However, they had made it their number one crime to travel to a year within the same time block, as they've learned that it opens up the threat of paradox, and requires the intervention of their 'time police' to return things back to the original timeline. 

TPTB have surely absorbed many of these lessons from past sci fi, and I believe they're smart enough not to make time travel a reliable thing.  Where they seem to be going with it is that time travel is an aberration that is very, very BAD.  When done with one's consciousness, it gives you a nasty aneurysm, unless you've got that constant thingy working well.  When done with one's physical body, it apparently, according to the Orchid Video, opens up some cataclysmic potentiality. That Ben asked what the date was, and was relieved to find out he didn't time travel, shows that he was taking a risk in teleporting.  And it wasn't exactly fun, from the vomitus and disorientation he evinced upon waking up like a snow, er..., sand angel.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: JBRam on April 26, 2008, 12:42:57 AM
Not a bad thought at all, Lion.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: opgelost on April 26, 2008, 06:30:00 AM
Ben said to Sayid: "Go away. Once you let your grieve become anger it will never go away. I speak of experience." I guess Ben was talking about Alex. If he travelled from december 2004 to october 2005, he wouldn't have had the time to let his grieve become anger and to plan to kill Charles' daughter out of revenge. That's why I think it is a flash forward and not time travel.
Maybe teleportation has the same side effects as leaving the island in the wrong direction and your consciousness could end up in the wrong time and Ben asked the date to be sure not to need to contact his constant.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 26, 2008, 10:08:15 AM
It just hit me in another thread that the time dilation effect in leaving the Island might be exacerbated by teleportation. So perhaps Ben needs to ask the date because, though it's only been a few seconds to him, it may have been much longer in the world.

Opge, there's no reason to think Ben traveled from December, 2004, unless I missed something.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: fieldy32 on April 26, 2008, 01:49:36 PM
It just hit me in another thread that the time dilation effect in leaving the Island might be exacerbated by teleportation. So perhaps Ben needs to ask the date because, though it's only been a few seconds to him, it may have been much longer in the world.

Opge, there's no reason to think Ben traveled from December, 2004, unless I missed something.
Bingo! I think this is why Ben asked the date.  He teleported, and due to the "time bubble" that surrounds the island, he just wanted to double check that he hadn't "time traveled" instead.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Writers_Strike on April 26, 2008, 03:02:18 PM
The episode stared like Season 1 of Locke or Jacks episode, looking at him laying on the ground, a little dazed. So what if Ben was in a plane crash that was transporting dry ice to the refrigerators of the nomads in the desert. It has just as little evidence as Time travel, so that means it has merit right?
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 26, 2008, 03:48:15 PM
It just hit me in another thread that the time dilation effect in leaving the Island might be exacerbated by teleportation.

Another great possibility.  Plus, it may be unclear, even to Ben, what the proper setting of the teleporter would be, if the implosion of the Swan did impact the time dilation between the island & the real world.

The episode stared like Season 1 of Locke or Jacks episode, looking at him laying on the ground, a little dazed. So what if Ben was in a plane crash that was transporting dry ice to the refrigerators of the nomads in the desert.

Nice comparison.  However, neither Locke nor Jack woke wearing Halliwax's coat from the Orchid Station.  And intrepid Ben himself was rather dazed from the teleport, which he wouldn't have been had he rode the slowboat to the desert like the polar bear.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: lostfan777 on April 26, 2008, 09:55:25 PM
I can't understand why this is such a huge debate.  They've made it clear that time can be affected when attempting to leave or approach the island and the Orchid video made it clear that they were doing experiments involving teleportation and that time can be affected during that process.  So why isn't it obvious that Ben teleported and needed to double check the time to make sure that he didn't screw something up?  Sounds simple enough to me! (Especially when you consider that we all must be out of our minds to be this involved in this discussion!  ;D )

On a side note, maybe Dr. Candle/ Halliwax or whatever his name is accidentally teleported his left arm somewhere!  I've gotten careless with power tools a couple of times myself and I know how quickly accidents can happen! Just ask the nice nurses at the ER!  :-[
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: jugdish on April 26, 2008, 10:00:17 PM
I can't understand why this is such a huge debate.  They've made it clear that time can be affected when attempting to leave or approach the island and the Orchid video made it clear that they were doing experiments involving teleportation and that time can be affected during that process.  So why isn't it obvious that Ben teleported and needed to double check the time to make sure that he didn't screw something up?  Sounds simple enough to me! (Especially when you consider that we all must be out of our minds to be this involved in this discussion!  ;D )

On a side note, maybe Dr. Candle/ Halliwax or whatever his name is accidentally teleported his left arm somewhere!  I've gotten careless with power tools a couple of times myself and I know how quickly accidents can happen! Just ask the nice nurses at the ER!  :-[

I can agree with every word you posted. Perfectly stated, even the part about power tools. My disagreement with people is when they try to go farther than you said. I do not see the evidence in the show to support that jump
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Creflo on April 27, 2008, 03:31:45 PM
Of course it has been and will continue to be a huge debate . . . probably the most important debate regarding this show.  If there is a deliberate method of time travel existing on The Island, it helps to explain innumerable concepts integral to the show:

- Same-age Richard Alpert recruits a prepubescent Ben
- Ben always seems to know where to be and what to do/say...confident in his own safety (until threatened by the forces of fellow time-lord Widmore).
- Operatives (oh no, better call them coincidences!) are positioned in the past to manipulate the Losties before the ill-fated flight
- The Island has a value so extreme that deaths and huge outlays of cash are put forth in the battle for control
- What Ben "can do"
- People who are dead in the past reappear in the present and future
- The friggin cave door behind the secret metal door is covered with mystical glyphs!  It's unlikely that there's a joystick that pilots Smokey in there.

These concepts are only the ones I can pull up offhand.  There are SO many others that are easily explained by either Ben time-travelling physically or by Desmond going back to the mind of his younger self.  These concepts are difficult to explain without some sort of time travel.

Quote
The producers made the rules of time travel clear.  That only consciousnesses can time travel and that you can't change the future.

This is NOT what the producers have said, at least not in anything I've read or listened to.  They only stated that they take great pains to avoid paradox.



As for the folks who continue to deny time travel in the show, I'm not going to say those people are foolish or blind.  I'm just saying that The Temple is "not for them" and they should stick with Jack and his Team of Science.   ;)
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 27, 2008, 05:36:17 PM
I don't see how these are proof of time travel.  Alternative, simpler explanations exist.

- Same-age Richard Alpert recruits a prepubescent Ben
Explained by the island's healing properties & Dharma's anti-aging experiments, butressed by Ben's crack in the tent about Richard never having a birthday. I.e. he is indeed ~200 years old.

- Ben always seems to know where to be and what to do/say...confident in his own safety (until threatened by the forces of fellow time-lord Widmore).
Like any charlatan, snake-oil salesman, and psychic (e.g. John Edward on Crossing Over), Ben is a master manipulator able to strategize several moves ahead.

- Operatives (oh no, better call them coincidences!) are positioned in the past to manipulate the Losties before the ill-fated flight
That these time police manipulated the Losties onto Flight 815 doesn't mean they had to time travel to do so.  Rather, they could have been merely implementing a plan, within a single timeline.

- The Island has a value so extreme that deaths and huge outlays of cash are put forth in the battle for control
- What Ben "can do"
- The friggin cave door behind the secret metal door is covered with mystical glyphs!  It's unlikely that there's a joystick that pilots Smokey in there.
Which doesn't require time travel to be so.

- People who are dead in the past reappear in the present and future
Explained by Smokey's ability to read minds, as seen with Juliet in Left Behind, and then create physical manifestations of those memories.

I'm with TPTB.  Time travelling is a crutch, diminishing the consequences of any/all previous actions.  The audience would lost interest, as the story would merely become the latest whims of the writers.  That's why I think it's a much smarter approach to make teleportation possible, if dangerous, with time travel as a harmful side effect that is to be avoided at all costs (as shown by Ben's relief to find he hadn't time travelled in this week's episode). 
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: jugdish on April 27, 2008, 08:14:29 PM
DOC JENSEN: Another popular theory making the rounds is that we're dealing with alternate realities. For example, there are people who think the flash-forwards are merely possible future scenarios, not written in stone.

CARLTON CUSE: We want people to believe in the stakes of the show. The problem with alternative realities is that you never know when the rug is going to be pulled out from under you. We want the audience to believe that the jeopardy is real. Postulating alternative realities would be an escape valve that would be damaging that as a narrative value.

DAMON LINDELOF: You can get away with it in Heroes, where there is an apocalyptic future you want to avoid. But we're doing the opposite. We want to work toward a future where Jack is absolutely miserable and wants to go back to the Island. Everything we present to the audience has to be factual.

CUSE: We want the audience to believe that is THE future. We don't want people thinking, ''Well, since there are five iterations of this, I'm not going to invest in what's happening to the characters.''

LINDELOF: We're not going to tell you that we're against bending the time-space continuum. We are very for it. Carlton and I are PRO time-space continuum bending! But we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues. In Heroes, Masi Oka's character travels back from the future to say, ''You must prevent New York from being destroyed.'' But if they prevent New York from being destroyed, Masi Oka can never travel back from the future to warn you, because Future Hiro no longer exists. Right? So when we start having those conversations at Lost, we go, ''This show is already confusing enough as it is.'' To actually have characters traveling through time has to be handled very deftly.

CUSE: For example, the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel and operates in different time periods. It was a tough story to break. But we adhere to our rule: no paradox.

Here is the complete discussion on MPU. I know this thread is about time travel but I believe much of it if realative to the discussion.

We all know there is some kind of time issue on lost, Desmond episodes have proven it. Where I come into disagreement with people is that they try to explain everthing with time travel. It just is not gong to be that big a part of the show. IMHO.

To me the key is NO PARADOX. PEople traveling to the future and coming back causes a paradox.

I like what others have been saying, Time is screwed with, some time may be "lost" but that does not mean jumping to the future and past to me.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 27, 2008, 10:17:23 PM
Hear, hear. Although at one point I was hoping MPUs would be utilized, as they're on the edge of theoretical physics currently (and who doesn't love an underdog?), I came to realize how impossible they'd be from a storytelling standpoint.  The same problem exists with Time Travel.  Teleportation, if used sparingly and with consequences, doesn't create any paradoxes, so is kosher.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: LouE68 on April 27, 2008, 10:20:28 PM
Hear, hear. Although at one point I was hoping MPUs would be utilized, as they're on the edge of theoretical physics currently (and who doesn't love an underdog?), I came to realize how impossible they'd be from a storytelling standpoint.  The same problem exists with Time Travel.  Teleportation, if used sparingly and with consequences, doesn't create any paradoxes, so is kosher.
and it's been the underdog for what? 40 years? come on think out of the vortex people...
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 27, 2008, 11:26:33 PM
I can't understand why this is such a huge debate.  They've made it clear that time can be affected when attempting to leave or approach the island and the Orchid video made it clear that they were doing experiments involving teleportation and that time can be affected during that process.  So why isn't it obvious that Ben teleported and needed to double check the time to make sure that he didn't screw something up?  Sounds simple enough to me! (Especially when you consider that we all must be out of our minds to be this involved in this discussion!  ;D )

On a side note, maybe Dr. Candle/ Halliwax or whatever his name is accidentally teleported his left arm somewhere!  I've gotten careless with power tools a couple of times myself and I know how quickly accidents can happen! Just ask the nice nurses at the ER!  :-[

I can agree with every word you posted. Perfectly stated, even the part about power tools. My disagreement with people is when they try to go farther than you said. I do not see the evidence in the show to support that jump

this is a safe place to be in the discussion until further evidence is proffered up pointing either direction...
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Creflo on April 28, 2008, 01:31:45 PM
Quote
We all know there is some kind of time issue on lost, Desmond episodes have proven it. Where I come into disagreement with people is that they try to explain everthing with time travel. It just is not gong to be that big a part of the show. IMHO.

Yes.  This is certainly a safe fence rail to sit on . . . until such time as even more is revealed about the exact nature of the "time bending"

It's perfectly alright to change opinions based on further revelations during the show.

No time travel, but still believe in some time manipulation. people in the same place but at differnt times.

I am not even sure desmond traveled back in time. It very well could of been a lucid dream.


The Doc Jensen interview posted by Jug is one of the most important reveals by the producers so far.  I have scrutinized it numerous times, and my opinion is that it:

- confirms that there is indeed time travel
Quote
the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel

- minimizes paradox as it is harmful to storytelling

Quote
we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues.


Sure, it's a crutch to try to explain all of Lost's great facets with a catch-all time travel solution.  I am not of that camp.

What I will say is that time travel most certainly exists in the show and those folks who didn't believe it must surely now acknowledge that it's there.  Also, at least two characters have almost certainly been shown to have been traveling time in one form or another.

Because Ben has at least some control over when he initiates his travels and at least a vague idea of when and where he's headed, it makes him extremely powerful . . . and this concept is surely a big part of the show.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 28, 2008, 07:24:11 PM
Quote
Where I come into disagreement with people is that they try to explain everthing with time travel.
  And yet no one in this thread is trying to do that except you.  Perhaps you are having an argument with yourself?

Quote
It just is not gong to be that big a part of the show. IMHO.
Time travel, teleportation, mind travel or whatever the hell we are calling it today is a part of the show. In fact, it might be the reason why the island is so important and valuable to rich old men like Widmore and Paik.  It also might be the reason the events that we see unfolding on our screen are happening in the odd way they are.  To not see or realize this is missing a fundamental element of the show and to me really questions the ability of that viewer to understand the show properly. ;)
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: Staggerlee on April 28, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Tis nothing more than a cool minor plot device, bending or whatever, the story is the people and the conflicts.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: LostGirlDeb on April 29, 2008, 09:24:30 PM
and on another note........

  what about that puke?

  LOL :D

Same color as Juliet's drink that they gave her before boarding the submarine for her journey to the island.

Also I wanted to mention one thing.
Darlton also said in one of their podcasts that you can't listen to everything "they" say
Only the show tells the truth..... so quoting an article or an interview from them doesn't convince me at all
 
And as far as paradoxes go....didn't Desmond's "mind" traveling actually alter something in the future?



 
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: T Mack on April 29, 2008, 11:12:47 PM
and on another note........

  what about that puke?

  LOL :D

Same color as Juliet's drink that they gave her before boarding the submarine for her journey to the island.

Also I wanted to mention one thing.
Darlton also said in one of their podcasts that you can't listen to everything "they" say
Only the show tells the truth..... so quoting an article or an interview from them doesn't convince me at all
 
And as far as paradoxes go....didn't Desmond's "mind" traveling actually alter something in the future?

Indeed it did, however inconsequential.  I think the consequences of the paradox are when one meets oneself in another timeline, or you kill your grandfather, or something silly like that, which we know can't happen anyway.  I think people are getting caught up in 'degrees of believability', using things like paradoxes to explain away good reasoning.  In other words, we can still have time travel or whatever, as long as we don't create a paradox.  Things can be changed, but they must be inconsequential to the overall story. 

Ms. Hawking was right, the Universe does course correct, but only when it's absolutely necessary to do so.
Title: Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
Post by: JBRam on May 05, 2008, 07:44:09 PM
Ben said to Sayid: "Go away. Once you let your grieve become anger it will never go away. I speak of experience." I guess Ben was talking about Alex. If he travelled from december 2004 to october 2005, he wouldn't have had the time to let his grieve become anger and to plan to kill Charles' daughter out of revenge. That's why I think it is a flash forward and not time travel.
Maybe teleportation has the same side effects as leaving the island in the wrong direction and your consciousness could end up in the wrong time and Ben asked the date to be sure not to need to contact his constant.
My thought was that he was talking about Annie, not Alex. However, either way is definitely possible.