Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x07 => Topic started by: E-Rich on February 08, 2007, 08:55:46 PM

Title: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: E-Rich on February 08, 2007, 08:55:46 PM
I can't believe no one wants to talk about this....

Why does Karl get to leave ont he boat, but not Alex.  This seems weird to me.

Also - Juliet SHOOTS Pickett...my gosh!  Is he dead?  Is it a hoax shooting?  Is this not important at all?

Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 09:00:40 PM
He's dead. Most definately
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 08, 2007, 09:06:47 PM
LOL E-Rich
I think they let Carl go because he was not needed and he is close enough if they do need him.  But Juliette had to play it just right to save Ben.  Alex was not allowed to go because Ben who we are assuming is her dad would be mad.
Picket needed to be shot, because it was important that Sawyer and Kate get to safety
(Again to save Ben)
Picket got in the way of that and got shot.

Why what are you thinking? Do you have any other ideas? Would like to hear them

Everybody has been saying what did Carl do to deserve the brainwashing room?
My opinion is that he is a sort of a rebel and this is their method of making him comply
He was already in the cage and then he tried to free Sawyer.(shows us that he had "issues" before our Losties arrived) and just maybe they have been trying to keep him away from Alex for some reason so maybe it is actually better if he is not around

But aren't they afraid that he will reveal their secrets?  Does he know anything that would shed some light on some of this?  That is my burning question
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: LouE68 on February 08, 2007, 09:27:33 PM
Kinda my thoughts are, he(Ben) wants to have Alex closer to him. Hence the, "did she ask about me" question from the other epi. Ben wants Alex there, Karl is a distraction for her.

I did think it was funny, how the perception of the calm community, everyone has meetings book readings society, to Ben said let them go ,boom boom boom, kill Pickett. That was just crazy! You are only as important as the moment, something bigger than all of them is in the works. 
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 10:15:48 PM
I thnk Juliet was just wanting to take her anger out on something, and Picket got in the way. Well, he wasn't having a great day anyways.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2007, 10:57:29 PM
Juliette warned Picket and told him that ben told her to let Kate and sawyer go. He refused to listen and was going to shoot them. SHe had to do it to save Ben.

For whatever reason Carl and ALex can not be together, Ben does not want that.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: ChellyKins on February 08, 2007, 11:23:13 PM
Honestly, what dad approves of their daughter's choice in young men? Not many. It's a "daddy's girl" syndrome IN MY OPINION. So he wants the trouble maker removed even if just remotely removed. And it's a way for Ben to show Alex he cares for her feelings for him, will respect that but won't allow them to be together.

As for Pickett....he was a live wire. He was making his own rules. He was hellbent on killing Sawyer...keep in mind, he did NOTHING to cause Colleen's death!!...for some unknown reason. So possibly they knew he was a walking time bomb.

Again, just my opinions.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: airdudei on February 09, 2007, 12:52:59 AM
LOL E-Rich
I think they let Carl go because he was not needed and he is close enough if they do need him.  But Juliette had to play it just right to save Ben.  Alex was not allowed to go because Ben who we are assuming is her dad would be mad.
Picket needed to be shot, because it was important that Sawyer and Kate get to safety
(Again to save Ben)
Picket got in the way of that and got shot.

Why what are you thinking? Do you have any other ideas? Would like to hear them

Everybody has been saying what did Carl do to deserve the brainwashing room?
My opinion is that he is a sort of a rebel and this is their method of making him comply
He was already in the cage and then he tried to free Sawyer.(shows us that he had "issues" before our Losties arrived) and just maybe they have been trying to keep him away from Alex for some reason so maybe it is actually better if he is not around

But aren't they afraid that he will reveal their secrets?  Does he know anything that would shed some light on some of this?  That is my burning question

About carl - I don't think Juliet cared about Carl leaving the island or any of it. She finally gets to leave the island, so why not. It's not her problem any more.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: Cardacct on February 09, 2007, 02:18:37 AM
In my opinion, they don't want Alex to go to the other island because DANIELLE, her birth mother, is there.  She may not know that Danielle is her birth mother, and I'm sure if she doesn't, they don't want her to be running into Danielle.

Just my opinion, though.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: ChellyKins on February 09, 2007, 06:44:20 AM
In my opinion, they don't want Alex to go to the other island because DANIELLE, her birth mother, is there.  She may not know that Danielle is her birth mother, and I'm sure if she doesn't, they don't want her to be running into Danielle.

Just my opinion, though.


Ya know...I remembered Danielle saying the baby was taken from her and all of that stuff, but NEVER did it dawn on me that the Others lied to Alex and led her to believe that Ben was her father. I just went with "o my God, did Danielle and Ben have a baby together!?!?!" ...thanks Cardi...u slapped me back into "reality".
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on February 09, 2007, 06:52:53 AM
These people have been doing all kinds of fertility work.  Maybe Karl and Alex are too close genetically to be allowed to have children together, so they're being kept apart.  I have no foundation for this.  Just speculating.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: BlackrockBob on February 09, 2007, 07:54:53 AM
Has anyone else noticed there are diffenitely different types of Others?

There are the more civilized book club people (Juliette).
There are the mysterious mess with your mind, but calm people (Ben, Mrs. Klue)
There are the followers/gophers (Tom)
There are the anger issues/crazy people (Ethan, Pickett)

Then you have Alex and Karl. They are the rebelious teenagers and of course don't fit into any clear group. Karl was being conditioned to behave. I agree they don't want any uncontrolled reproduction going on, but I think it is more that Alex and Karl do what they want to do and can't be controlled. In the past, I don't think the Others really cared what Karl and Alex did so much. Now with the Surviors of 815 running around causing trouble, they don't want to add any fuel to the fire.

PIckett did have to be killed, he was out of control. He wasn't going to listen to Ben.

Do most of the Others kill? From my point of view it is only the people with anger issues.
Yes, Tom did shoot Sawyer, but that was more of a self defense thing. Ethan just killed a random Red Shirt and about killed Charlie. Goodwin broke that guys neck to avoid detection.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2007, 09:56:38 AM
Juliette kills also...now.

What society does want uncontrolled teenage reporduction going on!!

SOL I like your theory, they may be to genetically identical to be together.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: MaxsDad on February 09, 2007, 10:14:56 AM
What I found interesting is how easily Juliette can kill someone and it doesnt seem to bother her. 3 years before she was tore up over her Ex getting hit by a Bus. Now she can kill without batting an eye. What happened to her in the last 3 years?

Killing seems to come natural to this group.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2007, 10:24:15 AM
Living on in psychville for 3 years can change a person.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: Ladybug on February 09, 2007, 12:37:56 PM
In my opinion, they don't want Alex to go to the other island because DANIELLE, her birth mother, is there.  She may not know that Danielle is her birth mother, and I'm sure if she doesn't, they don't want her to be running into Danielle.

Just my opinion, though.
i agree with you cardi.  i think that is EXACTLY why they don't want alex to go with the losties, and EXACTLY why they DO want karl to go there.  it is a way to separate them.  for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: uofapiglet on February 09, 2007, 12:57:30 PM
Thanks for bringing up this subject E-Rich... I've been talking in different threads about Karl, but this is the first time I think I've actually considered Karl and Alex's relationship...

I've already asked about why Karl was being brainwashed or why they let him go with Kate and Sawyer... but I haven't exactly thought about why Karl and Alex's relationship is discouraged or why they are being kept apart. One one side, I agree with some of you that Ben is probably just being protective of his so-called daughter. On the other hand, SOL brings up a great point about what if they are too close genetically to have children, meaning they could be siblings or just share some hybrid DNA or whatever fertility experiment either of them might have been exposed to... I mean, they're the only teenagers we've seen so far in the Other's community (and BRBob might also be on to something here given the different classes/types of Other's we've een so far). So unless they give us another backstory about what happened to Rousseau/Alex, we won't really know if Alex thinks she's Ben's biological daughter, if she knows she's adopted, or if she is even aware of the fact that her mom is alive on the other island... but it's fun to speculate, huh?

Oh ya, Pickett is most definitely dead, but we have yet to find out if Juliet must suffer the consequences of having killed him. Sure Ben said she could go home, but they haven't really divulged whether or not she has to atone for his murder. Since we didn't get to hear any part of Juliet and Ben's convo, all we know is that she was supposed to help Kate & Sawyer escape, killing Pickett may or may not have been part of the plan.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2007, 01:05:59 PM
I like SOL theory on the genetics of Alex and Carl. But officially I am going with the simple answer of the father just wanting his daughter away from someone he feels is unworthy. The others are not happy with Carl so they tried to retrain him. Until more information, the most obvious is most likely the correct belief. It just isn't as fun as SOL theory :D
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 09, 2007, 05:52:19 PM
Yeah I like Sol's idea too, but yes not enough info on Carl yet
but that would make perfect sense
So I too stay with the idea that he was just being punished because he tried to free Sawyer and was not in compliance with whatever rules they have (prior to trying to free Sawyer)
But I would like it if Sol idea played out
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: JBRam on February 09, 2007, 06:02:31 PM
Yeah I like Sol's idea too, but yes not enough info on Carl yet
but that would make perfect sense
So I too stay with the idea that he was just being punished because he tried to free Sawyer and was not in compliance with whatever rules they have (prior to trying to free Sawyer)
But I would like it if Sol idea played out
If he was sent to the Fun Fun room for doing something like helping Sawyer get out (when it was impossible for him to escape) then what did he do to deserve being set in the cage? It must have been something minor.

And why doesn't Alex get in trouble?

Did Waldo say "Your father will kill you if he finds out you're here"? Was he being literal?
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: Foxyschic on February 09, 2007, 07:21:16 PM
Good point.  I was actually wondering why Alex didn't go ahead and get on the boat?  I don't think Juliette would have killed her.  Ben certainly wouldn't have let her off of the island. And even if Alex didn't know this piece of information.  She has seen that they wouldn't shoot her, even when she was "attacking" their camp with a slingshot.  Why not just leave and go with your boyfriend and the strangers?  Does she really secretly care about her father that much too?  Or, more likely, does she know that her father's power is that far reaching and that he could still have Carl killed, even if he is with the Losties on the other island?  Or did she think Juliette would have killed him right then and there?  (I think I would have given it a shot--haha no pun intended--and just hopped on the boat with them.) 
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: gakhandal on February 09, 2007, 07:45:00 PM
Pickett was going to Kill Sawyer and Kate no matter what anyone said to him. He didn't believe Juliette when she told him Ben's orders. Juliette had no choice, Pickett was in her and Ben's way. Juliette couldn't risk Pickett killing Sawyer and Kate, she needed proof that they were alive and well so that Kate would radio in to Jack. If Pickett Killed them, that means she failed Ben. If she failed Ben that means its her head on the line, not to mention her goal to get off the island.


Now about Karl, As Juliette tells Alex, Ben would-could order to kill Karl at anytime, the only way he would survive is if Alex stayed behind. This shows he isn't really needed by the Others. This looks more like a favor for Alex, since Alex is supposedly the [adopted] daughter of Ben and can be useful. Also she isn't completely heartless... I think.
____________________________
It also shows something to make Kate and Sawyer trust her (both killing Pickett and letting Karl go with them..) leading something to a future plot??
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: E-Rich on February 09, 2007, 08:00:26 PM
This is all just too interesting.

SOL - your theory is/could be very viable.  I don't think the reason that Alex and Karl are not to be together is simply because Ben is a protective father.  He's proven to be quite untraditional in other areas of his life...why be so traditional with Alex.  I do agree, however, that letting Alex go to the Lostie's island would be detrimental if she should run into Rousseau.  BUT, why won't Karl tell Rousseau and all the rest of the Losties of Alex, and the other procedures/protocols/intricate ways of the Others being led by Ben. 

I believe we will truly need a Rousseau flashback, or a BEN flashback to get more information of this strange triangle.  We've had our first "Other" flashback with Juliette...and the only way to go is to get more info about the Others through THEIR flashbacks.  I know we are up for a Jack-centric epi soon...but I really think we will get a Ben flashback (or at least another Other) in the near future. 

I still am not trusting of Juliette.  She killed Pickett...and although  he neede to die I'm sure there is some alterior motive for Juliette (like you all said of her going "home"). 

A prediction:
Alex is a very strong-willed young gal.  She desperately loves Karl and I think she will find a way to get off the smaller island to go find Karl with the Losties. 
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: ChellyKins on February 09, 2007, 09:30:09 PM
What I found interesting is how easily Juliette can kill someone and it doesnt seem to bother her. 3 years before she was tore up over her Ex getting hit by a Bus. Now she can kill without batting an eye. What happened to her in the last 3 years?

Killing seems to come natural to this group.


Exactly!

I realize this is a fictional show on TV, but they are trying to portray it as a wicked reality. Well how many of us have killed someone? (Show of hands please...) NONE (I hope.)...So if we were in an intense situation where it was a do or die...wouldn't you be shaking, crying?? SOMETHING??

I would. (Future Angry Others Camper ;) )
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: JBRam on February 09, 2007, 11:45:31 PM
What I found interesting is how easily Juliette can kill someone and it doesnt seem to bother her. 3 years before she was tore up over her Ex getting hit by a Bus. Now she can kill without batting an eye. What happened to her in the last 3 years?

Killing seems to come natural to this group.


Exactly!

I realize this is a fictional show on TV, but they are trying to portray it as a wicked reality. Well how many of us have killed someone? (Show of hands please...) NONE (I hope.)...So if we were in an intense situation where it was a do or die...wouldn't you be shaking, crying?? SOMETHING??

I would. (Future Angry Others Camper ;) )
I'm sure that the first three or four people that Juliet killed made her break down and cry afterwards.

If they haven't killed much before, I think they go through some sort of desensitizing traing, sorta like police do.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: jugdish on February 10, 2007, 01:57:08 AM
Can we not just make stuff up please. No information that Juliette has killed before.

Juliette can be trusted until her needs change. She will betray the losties at some point.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: ChellyKins on February 10, 2007, 10:05:39 AM
Can we not just make stuff up please. No information that Juliette has killed before.

Juliette can be trusted until her needs change. She will betray the losties at some point.

I think you're referring to Jon's post, but just in case...I was agreeing with rick...I assumed it was her first "kill" but how she reacted is what i got stumped on lol
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 10:50:16 AM
Can we not just make stuff up please. No information that Juliette has killed before.

Juliette can be trusted until her needs change. She will betray the losties at some point.
I suppose that we have no proof of it, but as Michelle is saying, a person doesn't just kill and walk away. They usually need to be desensetized... There's two major ways of doing it: One, to put them through a training camp, and two, to have them kill.

I'm leaning towards one, personally.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: firemanandlostfan on February 10, 2007, 11:29:53 AM
Really if you think about it they really didnt show much of Juliette after they shoved off she might look over at Pickett and see the reality of what she did and start crying.  They may show this or they may not.  Sometimes Lost jumps around a bit and the producers may just leave it open to speculate if Juliette is a cold blooded person (as Sawyer speculated) or is kind hearted as we have seen from flashbacks.  There might be more to her story which has hardened her to be as she is.  Remember in the first episode we see her alone in her house crying so she has had some trauma before the plane crashed and she had this new "company" to deal with.  Her backstory with Ben is the real key to understanding what Juliette is all about and I am sure the they will touch on that, preferrably in a Ben flashback as we need to know more about that dude.  Especially the whole adopting Alex part.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 11:31:55 AM
Very good points, Fireman.

I personally would go with Sawyer on this. I think he would know what makes a hardened killer, since he transformed into one.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 02:56:18 PM
One of the reasons I love this site is so I can read the speculations. But really at this point to speculate why or why not she reacted the way she did is kind of irrelevant.  The point was that Pickett was standing in the way of what needed to get done at that point and time.  Pickett needed to be stopped and he was.
I think we will later see more on Jules and what made her a "harder" person
Who knows maybe she went through a "brainwashing" session herself.
I think the reasons that Juliette gave Alex for staying behind were sufficient for now
The key was to get Sawyer and Kate off safely and Carl was really not planned for, and Juliette had to go for that in order to save Ben.  She was not at all mean or authoritative towards Alex, she just stated a fact and Alex understood. Plus I think Alex can probably get to the other island if she really wants to, she already had a boat...
I can't wait for more flashbacks on Juliette and Ben and Alex...and Danielle
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: mindsparkle on February 10, 2007, 04:32:27 PM
I don't believe that Ben told Juliet that he'd let her go if she helped him get his operation, I think he blackmailed her with a you do this or I'll do that...

Ben did need the operation to happen so certainly completing his operation was imperative, that said, I think he was willing to let Sawyer, Kate and Carl go because he can always get them back if he needs them and Carl being with the losties assures that at least Alex and Carl won't be together.  As for what Carl may tell the losties, Ben still feels he has the upper hand and the losties are at his beckon call if need be regardless of what they may think they know

I think that shooting Pickett was not in the discussion.  Juliet made a decision to kill him, I think she hates him and all that he represents with regard to her own sense of being a hostage... she will have to pay the consequences for this!

Why would Juliet lie to Jack about what Ben said... she may still need an ally and isn't destroying any bridges... her goal is to get of the island and to that end she will do whatever she feels is necessary.  The answer she gave to Jack solicits sympathy...  and she knows Jack is a caring man.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: Wishbone on February 10, 2007, 06:11:18 PM
I don't think Karl and Alex are genetically linked. Not sure if it's just an over protective dad thing either though. Not made my mind up about Carl yet.

With regards to Juliette, her backstory showed that the thing she cared about was her sister and since her ex died when Ethan and his buddy didn't get what they wanted she may feel she has to comply and is therefore desensitized to it. I have thought she seemed like a cold hearted cow in previous episodes anyway and Sawyer said he thought she would have killed Kate in a previous episode - something has toughened her up and I reckon 3 years on a creepy island could do that.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: firemanandlostfan on February 10, 2007, 08:32:45 PM
cold hearted cow??? lol
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 08:46:56 PM
I agree with MS
I don't think she told Jack the truth about what her and Ben discussed
and I agree with you also on the Pickett issue
He should have just stayed away, this was not planeed but needed to be done at that moment he got in the way of the plan
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: jugdish on February 10, 2007, 11:04:12 PM
Fireman, thanks for refreshing my memory on Sawyers comment on Juliette that sure was dead on correct. Sawyer has some people reading skills. There is still so much missing from Juliettes back story, namely the 3 years on the island. We will find out some day.

Mindsparkle most likely has the situation well described. Ben sure could of threatened Juliettes sister. Juliette knows they will follow through on their threats.
Title: Re: Juliet Kills Pickett? and Karl can Go?
Post by: E-Rich on February 12, 2007, 07:46:25 PM
Absolutely.  I think this is a very valid arguement on what Juliette and Ben talked about...