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Messages - T Mack

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soooo many long posts... i'm never coming to this thread

Your brain is like a muscle, if you use it more it will grow, and grow, and grow... :D

Thanks Cowboy, I think we have to be careful though, with this time theory, to not try to apply it to too many instances of what could be otherwise explained as 'prop mistakes', 'continuity errors', or just simply filming mistakes.  Also plot devices such as Jack asking Kate to "tell me the story I told you when you know you are safe", are just instances of Jack trying to 'out think' the Others, because they have been lied to so many times.

When presented with it just right in our face like we witnessed in "Flashes" the other night, I think we have to give some credence to the theory.  I don't think that it explains all, nor do I think the theory is perfect, but some fishy is going on with time on/off our island.

One other thing to watch out for- later this season, the producers have claimed that they will factor in the Tsunami of 2004, which affected the Indian Ocean and South Pacific.  If they do observe this weather event, that WILL establish time as being the same as time on other parts of OUR Earth.  It is rumored that the Losties will have to experience the Tsunami on the island, making it occur roughly some time in late Dec. 2004.  Which as you remember the Tsunami struck on Christmas Day.  By all indications then this would establish time as even (on the show) with time on Mother Earth.  There is no way that time could be any different for the Losties than it is for anyone else, if the Tsunami is shown later this season.  That is a huge weather event that could not be altered by man, the Others, DHARMA or Hanso.

I think we have been shown that the only instance time is altered, is when one of the Losties is NOT on the island- in a flashback or in a parallel universe.

OK that last comment made my head hurt again!! ;)  I'm not gonna EVEN ask how that can be... :D
Sorry to clarify maybe?

The threads of time I suppose could all be ongoing at once, in other words they are happening at the same time, but to be simultaenous would imply to me that events were all "synched up" together so that the time was traveling along the same thread or line in just exactly the same continuum, on the same day or even the same clock hour.  We saw Desmond's mind 'travel', but it was into both the past and present, so the time wasn't synched up along the same time/date/day.   But hey, I have no idea really, it's just all healthy speculation at this point.  Headache to be sure! :-\

Oh I see so you are saying that we can change the course and it doesn't always have to
conclude the same way.
Yes, I changed my theory to reflect this, I realize now that part was a bit confusing.  However, Ms. Hawkings and others who may control things don't want us to believe this (or know this).  Because it would interfere with their plans- the end of time.

I was thinking that no matter what you do the final outcome will always be the same because it is "destiny" or...."fate" or "predetermined" which would make me want to live the journey the best way possible and stay out of the outcome.
I think this exact line of thinking has been setting up a major plot element between Locke, Desmond, Jack and maybe the Others to determine "the one true way".  Do you have to accept your fate, or can you change it, thus 'course correcting' the way of the universe?

Interesting...Thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions
I am a MPU believer!! ;D ( I think I always was)
NP, I think I am too! 8)

OK one more question, how does MPU relate to time as in past present and future? Do they in fact happen at the same time in a different dimension /thread?  simultaneously?
If I only knew I might be as smart as Mr. Hawkings. ;)  But I'm betting that they are all happening 'at once', but not simultaneously.

I loved this theory the most
Thanks you are very kind. :-*

My only problem with this is that the "average viewer" will not be able to grasp this and it is hard for even me to wrap my brain around it entirely.
I've thought about this as an 'excuse' as to why the writers would not do this, but it's a cop out either way.  You can't have a guy (Desmond) say "I saw into the future and Charlie died".  And then have Desmond go back in his past and remember events from the future and then turn around and say, oh well, sorry we didn't mean to do that.  I think that's what the producers meant by saying "this is a game-changer", because they can't step back from this without losing all credibility.

Unless they have written this in layers sorta like the dream explanation will suffice for the average viewer and for those who want to take it one step further there is the MPU theory or something similar.
  That said, you may be correct - and for those "SKATE" lovers and Jack's tattoo obsessors there may be a way they can wriggle out of this and just provide very superficial answers that they can live with.  Personally I don't think the casual viewer matters, they will accept anything.  It's the critical viewers- those of us on this site and others- whom they have to satisfy with a home run.  They can hit a single or a double for the casual viewer.

Another question that I have is this, If the final outcome is predetermined then, How do we alter events in hopes that the outcome will change?  It seems that if the outcome is already predetermined then nothing can be changed, or if it is, then in the end the outcome will still be the same No?
That's what the universe, the island consciousness, Ms. Hawkings or Smokey or whoever is pulling the strings want us to think.   If we can't change things, then we must accept our fate.  But what if we can?  What if Locke didn't lose faith and stop pushing the button? What if Desmond didn't follow Kelvin out of the hatch and cause the 'system failure'?
What if Desmond is able to change enough events (or that one specific key event) that causes the Valenzetti Equation to change.  Will he save the world?  If you were given a chance- just a sliver of a chance - to save the world, or just accept your fate and keep doing what you were told, what would you do?  What do you have to lose if the world is going to end anyway?

I really really loved this post and the way you thought it out and explained in such a simple manner.  I wish you had not waited a year to come and post on this site ;)
Great post!!
  Thanks, I guess I shouldn't have spent so much time on that ABC board where all of the trolls, slackers and losers muck the place up! :D

Thanks, I appreciate it!

The thought first crossed my mind when Cindy the flight attendant disappeared as the Tailies were taking the Rafties back to their "people." Now you see her, now you don't.

Cindy did in fact have a strange disappearance.  I want to be careful though not to pin each dissapearance of a person on MPU's or a time warp until we see some evidence.  With Desmond, we saw that evidence.  It was right in our faces- the producers were saying, "Ok, you wanted some answers, here's some answers".  This guy Desmond is consciously aware of things that he did 'in the future', while he is living his past.  We were also shown several instances of things where Desmond had clearly remembered more than one 'thread of time', where events in time differed slightly from each other.  It amazes me that people here and on other boards- in the face of this raw evidence- still don't beleive it.  "Oh, he was dreaming, or he got knocked out" or some nonsense like that.  If the writers can't come up with a better storyling than Desmond is dreaming his existence, then we have collectively all wasted the last two years of our lives on Wednesday night.  It's almost like people don't want to believe something so fantastic, that's right in front of their eyes.

I, too, thought about the voices in this context. After reading the transcripts of the voice whispers, many of us thought it sounded like people were watching what was happening. Again, to me it was almost like someone was watching from another plane of existence.

Cindy is in fact quoted as saying in this weeks upcoming episode in response to Jack's question- "What are you doing here"?  Cindy- "We're here to watch". 

I like this theory A LOT. Someone said of 3X8 that it was almost like Desmond was living in the past, present, and future at the same time. Maybe they were just a little off. Maybe he is living in multiple dimensions at the same time (or at least, has glimpses into them).
  Remember, the producers said- "This week's episode is a game changer".  Desmond having a dream isn't a 'game changer'.  Neither is Desmond having flashbacks or Desmond getting hit in the head and being unconscious thereby causing his fantastic visions.  Whether smokey enabled it, caused  it,  or created it is up for debate. But I firmly believe that Desmond's 'mind', possibly his 'soul' was able to traverse the fabric of time, and bring to 1997 his AWARENESS that he was not supposed to be there. With that awareness he brought his life experiences FROM 2004, his present, into his past.  Just look at his face as wakes up in his flat after falling from the ladder.  He is clearly disturbed at the fact that he know realizes that he is not on the island in 2004, then he shows relief as he feels like maybe he has gotten off of the island- somehow.  Then look at his face when he realizes, after waking up in the jungle, that he is back on the island and his fate is sealed.  Total desperatation and despair, and he asks for 'one more chance' to "make it right".

Time travel is scientific theory and goes beyond all credibility- the ability for your BODY to be in two dimensions of time at once. However, MIND TRAVEL- the ability of the mind to be aware of two seperate threads of time in your life- maybe 3 threads- your past, present and future- is in fact something that could probably be explained with PSEUDO science, not real science by the producers.  The real kicker here is AWARENESS.  To be aware that you are no longer in your past (or your future) and are able to make different decisions which may affect the future is the real key point I believe in this whole story.

So do you think Desmond is the central character of this twisting plot?   Now he is, yes.  I don't beleive he was originally slated to be.  Even Jack was supposed to be killed off in the first episode.  I think Hurley and Charlie were supposed to be central characters, but Hurley is just too hard to look at and Charlie is a boring character who's storyline is played out. The show is evolving as we are watching it.

We now are going to see him battle Widmore or Dharma or whoever to right the ending of the universe?  Change the numbers or what have you?   No he is not battling them, he is battling himself and the Universe.  You will find that DHARMA and Widmore etc. are 'the good guys'.  They have been trying to do the same but with no real success.

Are the other characters' lives just distractions?  YES.  Especially Sun/Jen, Charlie/Claire, Ana Lucia etc.  They have to have other characters for filler episodes.  Otherwise you could tell the story in 2 hours.

I feel that there has been a few seasons of wasted character development is that is the case. You would be right but that's a TV show for ya.

Maybe more characters will now be able to warp Desmond style now that the Swan is toast?  We shall see. So far none are showing pre-cog abilities.  No one was as close to the EMP as Desmond. Even Charlie is still his same old stupid self.

Not attacking by the way ;D I liked your well thought out theory.   THANKS!  ;D

I just wanted a little more meat.  Well if that small novel that I typed above isn't enough, 'fraid I can't help you.  I spent 2 or 3 hours on the above theory. :-X

[quote Bottom line:  I don't think I buy the MPU or the time travel theories.  I think Desmond just had a vivid dream or vision and is now somehow able to see "flashes" of the future.  Not the strangest thing on the island yet by any means![/quote]

Man, that would be really boring and a letdown if people were just having dreams.  I beleive I could have concocted a better story than that and sold it to the networks!

MPU....explain.... i have no idea!

Multiple Parallel Universes.  You don't read very thorougly do you?   ::) That's the title of the thread.  Yes, to the other poster some people must be able to 'mind travel' between the multiple parallel universes, like Ms. Hawkings.  This is different from time travel, as the whole body doesn't go, as in there are now two Desmonds in his past.  But his mind, from the island, is able to traverse the fabric of time, complete with his memories of other experiences in other dimensions.  Sorta creepy, but fun, isn't it?  :o

sounds great! i just wish i had a longer attention span...
:D  Just read it in spurts.  Take a few paragraphs, then come back and read more, and so on.

New here so be gentle.  ;D I 've been listening to Sledge's podcast and reading the site for over a year now, thought I would contribute a theory I have now after watching "Flashes Before Your Eyes".  It's long and I did post it on but thought some here might appreciate it.  It's long so bear with me. My theory involves Multiple Parallel Universes.(MPU's)

Multiple Parallel Universes.

There are actually multiple 'threads of time' all going on in parallel universes all at the same time, we are just not aware of them. While there may be an infinite number of threads- for our purposes, think of 3 strings, all of them seperate threads of time, all side by side. Events are taking place in each of the "strings" or threads, in parallel but not exactly in the same way. You as a person exist in multiple threads of time, but you are conducting and influencing events somewhat different in each. You are only 'self aware' in the event that you are currently in. In other words, you aren't aware - in normal conditions- of what is going on in your life in the other parallel universes or strings of time. Desmond has encountered something fantastic that has not only made him self aware of the multiple threads of time, but to exist in them and possibly influence all of them with slightly different occurences and outcomes.

Somehow Desmond was able to 'live' in another string of time, if for but a short period- after being exposed to the huge EMP discharge combined with either being struck on the head or because Smokie took him there, I'm not certain. In this way, Desmond gets transported to 'one' of his parallel universes, the one in which he DOES buy the ring, and DOES leave Penny in the end- he also doesn't join the military, and DOESN'T give Penny the picture. As you will recall, Desmond DOES join the military, leave Penny, and keeps the picture to himself in another 'thread' in time- the one we saw initially.  In still another, it appears Desmond gave PENNY the photograph.  So we may be looking at at least 3 different threads of time here, 3 multiple parallel universes- all coexisting without our awareness.  Our intrepid hero, however, has now become aware of the other MPU's, and this changes the game considerably.

As further proof, remember the jewelry shop lady Ms. Hawkings said "NO! you aren't supposed to buy the ring, you are supposed to walk out that door! (note the words 'supposed to' because he DID do this action in another parallel universe, in a simultaneous thread of time that was happening at the EXACT same time, only in another time, another universe.)

Charlie's Dead

Another example is Charlie's death. In one thread of time, Charlie drowns. Desmond told him so- "Charlie it was you who drowned". Note he used past tense. He didn't say "you will drown". He said you drowned already. Now did Des save him, or did he die? In another, Charlie is struck by the lightning, in still another, he is saved (he MUST have been saved, because there he is on the beach talking to Desmond about saving CLAIRE, not himself- so we must assume he is still alive in OUR thread, the one we are watching) In the thread that we saw, CLAIRE is saved, not Charlie. So Desmond saved Charlie by saving Claire.  So Charlie is really dead in various other threads of time, but not in the particle thread of time that we are just NOW watching on the island. However, Charlie's destiny is TO DIE ("cause to die" from the glyphs in the hatch), so Charlie WILL DIE no matter what Des tries to do to alter the thread of time (or will he?). He will die in ALL OF the threads of time, because no matter what Des does, the universe will 'course correct' and kill Charlie somehow. If it fails once it will try and try again.  Can Desmond do anything to save him?

The hatch implosion 'caused' Desmond to be aware of the multiple threads of time (either through Smokey or through EMP discharge or whatever)- ripped the fabric of time, and allowed him to 'travel'- not his body but his mind, back to a time BEFORE when he was on the island (Nov. 2004) to circa 1997 London. He was in another thread of time, however, he was 'self aware' that he had been on the island at one time 'in another life'- another thread of time. ("See you in another life").

Time Travel or MPU's?

It's one thing to 'time travel' but quite another to be 'alive' in mulitple threads of time. The kicker is that if you are self aware of the multiple threads. That's because you then know that you can 'influence events' (or not) by your actions (Mr. Eko saying "don't confuse coincidence for fate"). This awareness would create, in my opinion, a mental illness that would ultimately drive the person crazy. Sorta like knowing what was going to happen to you before it happened and being able to predict your own demise, etc. You could try to change it and you might do things differently in multiple threads of time, but your ultimate destiny would be the same (push the button, etc.).  Look for Desmond to start going crazy in future episodes.

One other thought- when Desmond leaves Widmore Industries and sees Charlie it triggers a flood of memories (flashbacks or flash'forwards'?) of actions he took in exactly that same spot in another 'time'. Was Desmond remember before or after the island? Or both?  Des said:

- He told me I was not worthy of his daughter
- I took off my tie
- I threw my tie on the ground
-Penny said "what happened to your tie" (all flashbacks)
-I saw you (Charlie) standing here and recognized you (flash forward)
- and then it began to rain (flash forward)

Note that Penny was no where in the sequence of events that we saw on the street corner. But in 'another sequence' of events in a parallel universe, in another thread of time, Penny did say this. Des was aware of the multiple instances of time and the different sequences of events, and in his confusion, got them mixed up together. The sequence was slightly altered but it didn't have any effect on the outcome, Des still went to the island, pushed the button, and met our Losties.  Perhaps at that time he was not 'self aware' of the MPU's and therefore did not try to do anything major to affect them.

Time Loop?

A 'time loop' would imply only one reality, in which one set of 'tasks' are lived and re-lived day in and day out until the magic task is completed or changed in order to break the loop-  A "Daybreak" sort of loop if you will.

This isn't what Desmond described. He has actually seen several versions of Charlie dying, and Ms. Hawkings described a different version of Desmond's reaction to the ring. Since Desmond had his own reaction, that makes 2 versions of the ring incident. Desmond also described a different version of encountering Charlie on the street corner, one which involved Penny (see above). But Penny was not present in the reality that we witnessed. To me this implies several versions of reality, several universes, or several 'threads of time'.  I suppose a loop would involve only one thread of time that keeps repeating over and over, until some sequence of events is changed.  But the events would all have to happen (loop) in exactly the same way over and over again for it to qualify as "a loop".  Only you can change the loop by changing the events.  However, we see different instances of loops going on here, different realities, different time threads.

The "Game-changer":
TPTB described in their podcast that this episode was a 'game-changer', "either the audience is going to buy into it or they are going to leave in droves". MPU's are a game-changer, if there ever was one.  There can be no other reason to describe the episode this way by the writers.  A dream is not a game changer, nor is a mental patient having delusions.  These have all been done ad nauseum in a TV series or movie before.

"Suspension of reality":
MPU's obviously require a healthy suspension of reality, and are definitely pseudo-science, maybe even science fiction. This game changer is going to delight all of the 'geek' watchers of Lost, but will alienate all of the casual viewers who want Kate and Sawyer to kiss, and are worried about who Sun's baby daddy is, and other sorts of PG-13 nonsense. These events are nothing more than distractions. I would even go out on a limb and say DHARMA is also a distraction to what is really going on in island time. Just a vehicle in which to weave a story, but not the real story.  The secret of the island lies in its mystical powers, not the DHARMA Initiative or the Others.  The true secret to the show is "what is going on with that weird island?"

The Whispers

It could be surmised that Ms. Hawkings and the whispers are somewhat the same. I saw another post that said the whispers are simply people in another dimension (maybe trapped in between dimensions) of time, who, via the rip in the fabric of time are speaking and who's voices are heard in our dimension, the one we are witnessing, on the island.

Ms. Hawkings comes through loud and clear however. Or maybe it's Desmond himself who is coming in loud and clear, with the ability to mind travel in between the two different threads of time, to see and speak with people, with the self awareness that he has been in another time thread. It seems the Losties aren't able to clear the hurdles to get to other time threads, other MPU's, and therefore can only pick up bits and pieces (the whispers) of people in other dimensions.

What will be interesting to see will be that now that the walls have been broken down, the barriers to entry  lowered -(due to the EMP discharge and implosion of the hatch)- will the Losties (other than Desmond) be able to reach out to these other universes where the whispers are, or are they limited because they aren't "special"- like Walt and Desmond?  Will the whispers get louder now or go away that the EMP discharge is complete?  No more pushing buttons that cause small releases of magnetism- the full blast happened, ripped open the fabric of time, and now we wait for the consequences.

Course Corrections

As it stands right now- I believe that it matters not what they try to do to 'course correct' themselves, the end result will always be the same. Ms. Hawkings told us that. (or is she bluffing?)  However, if Desmond can "course correct", can he change the course of events, the ones that do spell out "the end of times"?

The way it is explained by Ms. Hawkings (a take on physicist Steven Hawkings by the way) is that while Desmond may try to alter events by for instance, saving Charlie over and over again, eventually the universe will course correct and kill Charlie. It's not about the process, but the results. All events in all threads of time will eventually lead to Charlies death utlimately, but with slightly different scenarios. It's not about them 'completing the tasks until they get it right' as much as it is about them allowing fate to control their destiny, and allowing the events to play out as they are supposed to. Only Desmond so far has been able to "look behind the curtain" and see what is going to happen- but he still can't change the ultimate outcome- at least that's what we are lead to believe.

Another example as mentioned before is Desmonds encounter at Widmore Industries and then again at the pier:

- he gives Penny the photograph (we KNOW this because we see it on her nightstand in the present, and we know there is only one copy)
- and yet still another (which is the time thread that we witness) we see Desmond keep the photograph and it's in the hatch

In both of these scenarios, he still ends up on the island pushing the button. It's his destiny.

The Numbers

We know that the numbers are the makeup of the Valenzetti Equation, the numerical predictor of the end of time. Only one number in the sequence of numbers needs to be changed in order to alter the equation and 'save the world'.  If Desmond or one of the Losties can 'change their fate', perhaps this affects the equation and saves the world. The question is, can he?

Destiny vs. Fate vs. Free Will

But if what Ms. Hawkings says is true, Desmond must push the button or 'they will all die'. Which is true? Fate vs. free will...which is the right choice? If they allow fate to happen w/o changing events, does this ensure the safety of the world? Or if our Losties (can) use free will to change their fate (and hence change the numbers) does this alter the course of world destruction and "save us all". (Locke said destroying the computer "just saved us all", while Desmond said "no, you just killed us all".)

Perhaps the island is the "consciousness of the universe" and wants to be destroyed, maybe it is the 'destiny' of the universe to destroy itself. Perhaps ol' Smokey is the protector of that consciousness, trying to influence events and keep man from intervening on this path of destruction. But what if man can alter events and intervene, thus saving the world? Only one number in the equation needs to be changed to make this happen, and perhaps Alvar Hanso and even DHARMA are on to this, but just don't have the right technology (mind power?) to pull it off.

Only by seeing the other 'threads of time' and observing what happened in them, can man attempt to change them, and thus change the final outcome (the numbers) and perhaps save the world.

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