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Messages - thwgt

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Episode 3x08 / Re: Time viewing / manipulation theory
« on: February 20, 2007, 11:33:49 AM »
Why not an even simpler explanation-
Desmond is brainwashed or has memorys force fed to him.
The others/them then are simply manipulating events - eg - they produce the lightning , they produce the undertow that claire starts to drown in.
Desmond knows these things in advance because hes already got the events in his head put there.

Perhaps the others/them either want desmond or the losties to believe he can see the future?
Only problem with that is that he also knew about Locke's speech.

Episode 3x08 / Re: Where did the "flashback" end?
« on: February 15, 2007, 11:51:15 PM »
WhatThe's quote:
The lady in the jewerly store kinda contradicted herself by first saying that it was impossible to change your path (the guy who dies would have died anyway) and that the Universe has a way of "course correction"...but she also tells Desmond that if he doesn't do things the same way he did before, he wouldn't end up on the island and wouldn't be pushing the button or turning the failsafe key, and thus everyone would die. She gave the impression that his choices could effect the outcome, but also tells him that it doesn't matter what choices are made because the Universe woud correct everything if it went off course anyway.

Very VERY valid point "whatthe" my brain can't handle it...

I'm curious about this too... If Des can't change the future, then how can he... change.. the future...???
OK, now we're getting somewhere.  Fionnula (or Ms. Hawking, apparently) is saying, "You can't change the future" while at the same time saying, "Go back and turn the key or you'll change the future (kill us all, or words to that effect)."  Why the paradox?  Because something/someone wants the key turned.  Playing on Des's conscience to accomplish the task while at the same time preparing him for the precognition that is a side effect of being at ground zero of the failsafe.

Here's a thought.  Picture the Swan station as a pressure cooker.  The steam builds up to a less than critical point and gets released, starting the cycle all over again.  The two other options?  Don't release the steam gradually and it builds to an explosion (or implosion in this case, since we're apparently dealing with some form of magnetism); this is the result of not pushing the button and concludes with the destruction of everything.  OR Remove the lid altogether and let the steam go free, i.e. activate the failsafe.

Pushing the button and activating the failsafe are not equivalent, obviously, or else why not just turn the key and be done with waking up every 108 minutes.  The result of NOT pushing the button and activating the failsafe are equally not equivalent, or else why would Kelvin and Desmond keep pushing the button?  SO, who wants the button pushed?  Whoever set up the Swan station and/or got Kelvin to man it (Hanso, Dharma, Widmore).  Why?  To prevent the ex/implosion and keep the "steam" controlled.  Why provide the failsafe?  Because the consequences of the ex/implosion are worse than taking the lid off?  I don't know.

To me, everything points to the Island (whatever that means) wanting the key turned -- release the "steam".  What was the result of Eko climbing the cliff to find Yemmi?  The discovery of the Pearl station.  What did that accomplish?  Locke became disillusioned with pushing the button and forced the failsafe.  The "Island" (smoky?) wanted the failsafe enacted and knew that Desmond was its ace in the hole.  Get Locke to stop pushing the button and Des would turn the key.  But Des hesitated and hence the time travel bit.

Episode 3x08 / Re: Where did the "flashback" end?
« on: February 15, 2007, 05:04:59 PM »
That's exactly it.  Either the "time travel" is real or it all occurred within Des's mind (or both, if you want to get all Cartesian :)).  If it occurred within his mind, then you're left with two possibilities - a) it was entirely internal to Des and reflects his own conflict as E-Rich believes; or b) something (the island, Smoky) is creating it to get him to turn the key.

I think the failsafe is the key (no pun intended).  Something, or someone, wanted that key turned.

Episode 3x08 / Re: Where did the "flashback" end?
« on: February 15, 2007, 02:58:11 PM »
Then why the struggle over whether or not to return?  Something wanted Des on the island to do "the only great thing" he'll ever do.  If just a dream, that would negate the urgency of his decision.

BTW, nice juxtaposition of avatars, don't you think?

Episode 3x08 / Re: Painting in Mr Widmores office?
« on: February 15, 2007, 02:43:13 PM »
So why so many Buddist angles from "Christian" writers?

But are they Buddhist or Hindu?  Namaste and Dharma are common to both religions.  Didn't someone say that the statue in the painting and brainwash film was Shiva, rather than Buddha?

Episode 3x08 / Re: Where did the "flashback" end?
« on: February 15, 2007, 02:06:43 PM »
The flashback was actually started when Des was choking Charlie for the first time, and it ends when we see Hurley pulling him off.  Everything in-between is a flashback.

This doesn't address whether or not there was time travel, or another embedded flashback, or a dream, etc.
Sorry, that's what I'm talking about - the flashback/dream/etc within the flashback.  In other words, when Des "comes back" to the island from "the past" was it pre- or post-failsafe?  Did his time-travel experience occur before he turned the key?  Or do we even know from the evidence?  I'm working from memory here, as I don't have dvr and my vhs is not working.

Episode 3x08 / Re: TIME
« on: February 15, 2007, 01:59:10 PM »
Time is limited to the relativity of the finite. The infinite does not experience time linearly, and thus, is exposed to all time at once. The infinite has no beginning and no end, so if Desmond were able to escape the linear time-space continuum, he would experience the infinite. In that space, he would experience all time together as one, since Desmond himself would have no end and no beginning while being within the infinite.

Whether or not this is what Desmond experienced is still up for debate. This notion of a finite being touching the infinite was very well expressed in "12 Monkeys", in which Bruce Willis' character starts to experience things from different times at the same point and time in space after enduring time-travel. Characters from his past and future all collide in what he perceives to be the present. The result of this (in 12 Monkeys) is insanity, as the finite brain cannot handle the multiple dimensions of time as represented by the infinite.

The best way I've heard it explained is to picture time as a ruler.  Man perceives time as moving along the ruler from Point A to Point B.  God perceives time as if looking at the ruler from the end instead of the side.  Therefore past, present and future are together.

This is key to understanding the Calvinist principle of predestination (a theme seemingly touched on in the episode).  Calvinist=Presbyterian=Church of Scotland.  Desmond is Scottish...hmm.  Probably reading way too much into that. :)

Episode 3x08 / Where did the "flashback" end?
« on: February 15, 2007, 01:48:05 PM »
Or rather when?  I can't remember, but think it's crucial to understanding Des's experience.  After getting hit by the bat I'm pretty sure he popped back to right before turning the key.  Is this right or did he return to a post-failsafe island?

If it was pre-key turn, then I believe the flashback/time travel/do over was concocted by the island because he was hesitating.  There's precedence for this type of "island intervention" to get a character to do or go what/where it wants: Eko/Yemmi, Jack/Christian, Locke/Boone, etc.

If the island wanted the failsafe used, this would tie in nicely with theories about the Swan station being designed to rein in some natural force already on the island.

If Desmond's thing occurred between turning the key and waking up naked, then we're dealing with some sort of time travel, which would suck because it's sort of a cop-out.  I'd rather the whole series be some sort of Gilligan's Island dream sequence than to be based on time travel.  Time warping or displacement as a result of whatever power (magnetism? psychokinesis?) is driving the island would be okay, and I think there is something of that sort going on, but straight-up time travel?  No thanks.

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