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Messages - WhatThe

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31
Episode 6x16 / Re: Jack is a smoke monster?
« on: May 24, 2010, 06:28:50 PM »
So you think just the sheer amount of time that passes between your "deed" and the "facing the music" can somehow diminish the severity of the deed?  That doesn't seem right to me...

If the Smoke Monster was created/born from the existing anger, rage and hatred that existed in Jacob's brother at the time, then yes, the amount of time that passes can indeed play a vital role.


Quote
Had none of that simply because he never had a chance to have that, because Jacob threw him in there right away!  I guess a better choice of word rather than "weird" would be "unfair."  It didn't feel very fair to me.

We don't know if that's the only reason Jacob's brother had none of those things that Jack did. We can tell ourselves that every single person on Lost would have gone through the same transformation that Jack did if "given enough time", but who's to say that would be the case? Ben definitely seemed WAY behind Jack in terms of time needed to change his ways and his beliefs.

Besides, wouldn't it seem just as unfair if everyone who entered the cave was turned into a Smoke Monster regardless of the level of goodness or evil present within them? Would it really be more fair if, say, Aaron had accidently fallen into the stream, floated into the cave, and became cursed as a Smoke Monster in the exact same way someone who just killed 10 people and ran into the cave to hide would have?

32
Episode 6x16 / Re: The stained glass at the church
« on: May 24, 2010, 03:21:30 PM »
Speaking of diversity, noticably missing from "heaven": Eko, Michael, Walt.

my take on Eko was that he moved on with his brother. Yemi meant more to him than the 815ers. That's why we saw him and his brother walking away arm and arm right after he died in "Cost of Living". Michael already told us he can't move on, hence he couldn't be there. Walt grew up and went on with his life and hopefully met other people and had other family it was more important with whom he moved on.

Exactly my take as well. Eko killed a man as a child because he wanted to save his brother, Yemi...he meant that much to him. We got to see Eko walking once again as a child with his brother right after his death...he moved on. Michael told us in no uncertain terms he was stuck on the island, so no ALT "moving on" for him, either. They didn't show Walt...but they didn't show Aaron, either. Or Sun and Jin's daughter. These three had lives full of love, obstacles, highs, lows and redemption that had zero to do with the island or the people on it. They will each have their own version of an ALT to help them move on with those they have connected with the strongest and shared their life obstacles with.

I would have loved seeing Eko in that last scene, definitely...but I get why he wasn't there. And that last scene would have felt extremely weird seeing Michael there. Hell, even seeing Ben inside the church wouldn't have felt right. I'm glad they decided to keep him outside. The ones who were there, were the ones who made the most sense, emotionally.

33
Episode 6x16 / Re: Not Happy......
« on: May 24, 2010, 03:12:25 PM »

Jack's mullet kid... Although I am perfectly capable of understanding that the entire show was really JACK'S test and HIS moving on, not about anyone else, and it was exclusively told from HIS PERSPECTIVE, it was still a crock of ....

I didn't wait six flipping seasons to find out that DrDrunk really wasn't as bad as Jack thought he was, and how in the heck was Bernard more important in Jack's life than, say, his FIRST wife?  What about his mother?  You know she must be dead by now.  She looked half dead the last time we saw her--

The bottom line is:  the writers got carried away with their red herrings and DIDN'T TELL THE STORY AND GET OUT.... They got high on their horses and thought the show would last much longer until ABC pulled the plug and told them to shove the entire story into the last 2 seasons, which left them with no choice but to cram it all into the last 2.5 hours.  Poor planning, writing, and execution.


blech
*Des8

Sorry ya hated it, and apparently didn't get it Des. This was not all about Jack. They all crossed over with each other. With the most important people in their lives. Jack crossed over with the people that helped him come to grips with his pre-island life. He had no relationship with his first wife. The Losties meant more to him than she ever could have hoped too. His father was THE most important person in his life. Hence him flashing after he touched the coffin.

As for your assertion that ABC made the call for them to wrap it up, that is plain not true. The Writers stated their own end date. This was ended exactly the way they wanted it to end, and it was perfect.
Sorry, darling.  ABC told the writers to wrap it up.  The ratings were so far down, the costs were still enormous.  They didn't end the show the way they wanted to, either.  Just do a Lexis Nexis search and see what the writers had to say when the show began, and how their attitude started changing over the years.  You, my friend, are wrong.

"Of course, few would argue that allowing the series to end when it did was at once risky and genius. In an industry where strong ratings almost always mean more episode orders, Lost’s show-runners Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse along with ABC entertainment chief Steve McPherson recognized an open-ended run would prove challenging--if not futile--for a series as narrow in premise and complex in storytelling as Lost. Instead, the decision in 2007 to put an expiration date on the critically-lauded show would give its creative team the freedom to end the series on its terms, the fans an incentive to stick with the demanding series and the network an event to promote at every turn.

What the legacy of a series that challenged both viewers and production budgets in an otherwise ailing broadcast era remains to be seen. As we’ve said before: to some, Lost will be remembered for its ability to generate water cooler buzz (or at least collective theorizing and frustration) and award show acclaim (some 60 awards to date, and an Emmy appears likely); and to still others (the network bean-counters), what will likely stick is the drama’s power to generate what Kantar Media estimates at more than $1 billion in advertising revenue over the course of its run."

- Forbes

34
Episode 6x16 / Re: LOST: For dummies
« on: May 24, 2010, 02:57:36 PM »
when did everyone else die?  when did they begin the afterlife?  What caused them to die?

some before Jack, some after Jack.
The afterlife is timeless, they all met at that place, not time.
Some of them you saw die. The ones that died after Jack, could be anything, including old-age.

BJ and AJ instead of B.C. and A.D. lol :)...

35
Episode 6x16 / Re: Plane Flying Over Jack
« on: May 24, 2010, 02:53:33 PM »
Absolutely.

The biggest bit of evidence here, and I've said this in 4 different posts, is what Christian said to Jack in the last 10 mins of the episode: "Everyone dies kiddo, some before you some long after."

SOME LONG AFTER!!

And if they all died in the crash then of what significance is Ben and his story, or Danielle, or any of the freighter people.

It is utterly ridiculous to assert that they all died in the crash.


Not to mention Kate saying to Jack "I've missed you sooo much" when she talked to him one-on-one in the ALT...that pretty much speaks to her having missed Jack for all the years after she left the island without him.

36
Episode 6x16 / Re: Why was the island underwater in the Alt.?
« on: May 24, 2010, 12:58:27 PM »
The "Flash Sideways timeline" was the eternal meeting place. They'd decided that it was the crash that brought them together so they engineered a reality whereby the island sunk, thereby explaining the flight not crashing, Desmond not being on it etc etc. Retrospectively, I would suggest that the bomb didn't sink it. That just caused The Incident and nothing more.

I thought the "incident" was caused by not pushing the button, and that's why it was emphasized in the training video to be so diligent?

37
Episode 6x16 / Re: Jack is a smoke monster?
« on: May 24, 2010, 12:44:35 PM »
My original post got lost.

Jack was in the light, the light that Desmond was uniquely immune to, the light that caused MIB to be turned into the smoke monster.  Shouldn't Jack have suffered the same fate?  He was expelled from the cave the same way MIB's body was.  It seems like a causality rule got turned off there.

I had a problem with that, too, sobrien.  If we knew that the Smoke Monster wasn't what MIB was turned into, but rather something that was released by MIB from under the cork, then it would be OK, but they told us flat-out in the pop-ups when they re-aired the pilot episode Saturday that MIB turned into Smokey.

All I could come up with was that Jack was "good" or "redeemed" or whatever you call it?  And MIB still had his mother's blood on his hands so he was "evil"?  I dunno.  I still think he was perfectly justified in stabbing his fake mother so I don't see why he was evil enough to be turned into Smokey, but whatever...  I mean, Jack tried to shoot Locke -- he absolutely would've if the gun hadn't jammed because Locke was a Candidate.  Isn't that intent the same kind of "evil" as MIB taking out his mother in a murderous rage? 

Jack's moment of possible "murderous rage" happened before he left the island, stayed away from the island for 3 years, then returned to the island in 1977, THEN flash-forward to the present 30 years lol. A hell of a lot of time passed in between that moment and when he entered the light-less cave. Compare that to Jacob's brother, who entered the cave within minutes of killing his mother. Significant difference.


Quote
It would be weird if the only difference between Jack and MIB is that Jack's murder didn't actually happen (through nothing he did himself, but only because of a protection Jacob had decreed), and MIB was pushed over the waterfall by Jacob before he had a chance at redemption for his misdeed.

Not weird at all, actually. That's the whole basis of Christianity: the idea that, no matter the sin or the sinner, they can be saved and redeemed and renewed and reborn through a sincere change of the core of one's being, a baptism, and an acceptance of Christ as one's savior. Jack met all three: definitely had a sincere change of his being down to his very core, the drinking from the stream can be said to symbolize a baptism of sorts (an inner baptism, that is), and he accepted "Christ" (the island) as his savior.

Jacob's brother? He had none of that.

38
Episode 6x16 / Re: Jack is a smoke monster?
« on: May 24, 2010, 06:35:40 AM »
One of the few things I was OK with was the way they killed MIB.  Kate shot it before letting it speak to her.


Nah, even if it WAS still Smokie, he had talked to Kate numerous times in past episodes, so the time for striking "before he talks to you" had long passed.

39
Episode 6x16 / Re: Jack is a smoke monster?
« on: May 24, 2010, 06:32:55 AM »
One of the few things I was OK with was the way they killed MIB.  Kate shot it before letting it speak to her.

I don't think it was that.  I think removing the cork made Smokey vulnerable (hence Jack was able to cut him when he punched him).

Yep. The moment Desmond removed that stopper thing, FLocke became human and, thus, vulnerable. When Jack started pounding on him like Jacob pounded on his brother and FLocke realized he was bleeding, the look on his face was "Oh, s**t" lol...

And by the way...that side shot of Jack and FLocke on the cliff facing each other, with Jack high up on the left and FLocke lower on the right...what a fantastic shot!

40
Episode 6x16 / Re: Not Happy......
« on: May 24, 2010, 06:29:22 AM »
The part I find inconsistent is Boone and Shannon.  Shannon was important really only to Sayid and to Boone.  And I've no idea who Boone was important to.

Well, Boone WAS important to Shannon. She was devastated at his death on the island. And I guess Boone was important to Locke..and ultimately, all of them were important to each other to various degrees, which may be why they were all together instead of just coupled up. I think they needed the people who they connected with the strongest to connect with them once more in the ALT, but then also needed to all be together to "leave" the ALT (as opposed to all being together to leave the island).

41
Episode 6x16 / Re: Dan, Penny and Lipidas...???
« on: May 24, 2010, 06:22:02 AM »
aaah!  the missing link for me was that i didn't hear Christian say that to jack. (which is weird because I usually  hang on to every word in this show  )  so everyone could have died at different times even 40 yrs later. ok. that's huge. now i see. thanks everyone!
 
but im still disappointed in what they did with Desmond. I'll have to think about this for a bit because i don't see how he was important in the end. (as of right now that is. I still have to let all of this sink in,) but  Jack could have done what he did... and he did in the end.. sooo...  :(

thoughts on this??? ...
Mrs. H!!!  I think Desmond was special.  He made defeating MiB possible.  He killed the island (briefly) and made the MiB mortal... and I think only Des could have done that.  And like the good doctor, Jack healed the Island.  But it was all possible because of Desmond.

Add to that the fact that Desmond did all the manipulating in the Alt timeline to get everyone to finally realize the truth and "let go". Desmond was actually incredibly important and special.

42
Episode 6x16 / Re: Favorite Lines from THE END
« on: May 24, 2010, 05:37:30 AM »
Kate (to Flocke): "I saved you a bullet!" *applause*

Lapidus: "In case you haven't noticed...I'm a pilot."

Miles: "I don't believe in much, but I do believe in duct tape."

Juliet (to Sawyer, after his candy dropped): "It worked."


43
Episode 6x16 / Re: I cried
« on: May 24, 2010, 05:21:13 AM »
Wow. Seriously, that's almost all I can say lol. Wow...

I was definitely disappointed in the last two episodes, but this episode kicked my ever-loving ass lol. Wow.

I no longer care that there were questions left unanswered. This ending "felt" right emotionally and spiritually. Kudos to TPTB, I didn't think you could pull it off, but you did.

Wow.

44
he did get banished and put on the sub, the only way they would get them out of there.  Funny someone once thought it was a time machine roflmao.
It had to be after the purge because Ben would not have been able to "command" DI folks to let him go, in my opinion

Since Widmore got banished from the island for having a child with an outsider/someone from the mainland, I assumed that child was Penny...and I assumed that Ben and the Others found out about Penny relatively soon after her birth. So unless Penny was something like 19 when flight 815 crashed or unless the Others didn't find out about her until she was graduating high school, it would seem that they banished Widmore before the purge occurred. But, eh, maybe not lol. But how did Widmore get to leave the island to HAVE a child with an outsider before the Others had the sub?

45
I don't think they're trying to be arrogant, I just think that some viewers want EVERYTHING to be part of the mythology/mystery and Cuse/Lindelof didn't necessarily intend for everything to be interpreted as it was. 

Yeah, I mean the whole show wasn't written out back in 2004. They have had a general idea moving forward, but the show has evolved fairly organically. I mean they had to deal with "real life" issues like Walt having a growth spurt, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje wanting off the show, Michelle Rodriguez getting booted, Michael Emerson being such a HUGE hit, etc. etc.

There's really 2 styles of movie making, the Alfred Hitchcock way where you have every shot and every gesture clearly scripted before you even build the sets, and then there's the kind where you just roll the cameras and let the chips fall where they may. When you make a show like Lost, some new ideas are going to come forward and some old ones are going to fall back.

Is LOST perfect? No, but it is the best I've ever seen.

But Lindelof didn't say any of what you're saying.

He didn't say the show was "organic" and changed as it went along. He said that the only reasons fans want to believe Aaron was "special" was because the psychic said so...and since the psychic said in a later season that he was a fraud we should have just dropped the idea that Aaron was important. Then he went on to make fun of the idea that fans have of Aaron being "special" by making the "lasers shooting from his eyes" comment...

Nowhere in his response did Lindelof even slightly acknowledge that he understood why fans still believed Aaron was important. Nowhere in his response did he acknowledge that the show leaned strongly towards making the audience believe Aaron was important. He just acted like he was tired of hearing about Aaron and somewhat incredulous that viewers still thought he was. THAT'S what makes it arrogant, not the fact that every question won't be answered.

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