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Messages - puff6962

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1
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 12, 2008, 10:49:54 AM »
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."

I have always hated the use of forwards or backs, because--as you point out--the physics and the paradoxes mount quickly.  Instead, think of the whole deal as "Slaughterhouse Five" where time is  irrelevant or, at least, arbitrary.  If you have a device that can "jump" realities along the lines of the Hugh Everett model, then you have an infinite number of worlds/realities.  Such worlds would not be forward or back in time as they coexist beside our own quantum formulation but are, in everyday life, invisible.  If one has a magic box allowing transition to such realities, then--from the perspective of the traveller--time continues on as if along a numbered axis.  The traveller may be back in a reality very similar to our 1930's and may return minutes later an old man.  But from his--the traveler's perspective--seventy years have past.  Is that time travel?  The one difficulty that every work on time encounters is the twin paradox.  No, not the Einsteinian spaceship clock stuff, but instead the notion that there may be two of you there and, if there is not, then how did you enter your twin's head.  That's always where storylines diverge from science and you end up with Dr. Sam Beckett in front of a stage entering the body of a stripper.  Not the usual way that one enters the....well, you get the point.

Anyway, don't worry about the time travel stuff if you've bought into the Hugh Everett model and you don't want to change history.


2
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 12, 2008, 10:29:46 AM »
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.
shall we sell tickets for the Cage Fight? mebbe we can do a live podcast...??

;)  I'm on CBW's side

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Allow me to theorize.

These were all flashbacks. Flashbacks for the four boaties. Flashbacks from a time before they were "recruited" and after flight 815 had originally crashed. A time before we saw the the boaties meet the Losties and after they themselves first left The Island. [dum dum duuuuuum!]

No one on this board inspires me more than Puff. I thoroughly enjoy his wild a creative speculations. They inspire me to think outside the box. Speaking about the boaties: "...some purposeful duality has been introduced in their characters". Boy, are you right.

These four boaties find themselves exactly where our Oceanic 6 are destined to arrive (if they all survive). They managed to escape from The Island and would now give anything to get back. What better group of people to send on a mission back to the Island? Ben knows them. And they know Ben. They know him very well. They didn't have to be tricked into going. They didn't have to be coerced. The obvious cover up attempt hit a little too close to home for all of them and they have their own personal missions to accomplish.

Charlotte first learned of Dharma and their ways when she was first on the island. Now that she has returned to civilization, it is her obsession to learn more about this group. She was not surprised to find the polar bear in the desert. It was just another piece of the puzzle that she has been piecing together for years. She was happy to see that Dharma logo. And did you see how happy she was to be back swimming in the waters of The Island?

The found wreckage of flight 815. It's happening all over again for Dan. He's not as strong as the rest. It's still very fresh in his mind. And it still hurts. He parachuted with a box of gas masks. I think I know why those might come in handy on this island. Just ask Ben's dad.

Frank wasn't the pilot of Oceanic 815. But he was supposed to be. He wanted to be! But he hadn't flown since that first fateful flight that he piloted. You know, the one that crashed on The Island the first time.

Of course Miles wasn't all that surprised to see the Losties or The Island. He had seen it all before. And Miles can see dead people. WTF? You know what? He wasn't able to see dead people before he first landed on the Island. Neither was Jack. Or Hurley. Or Locke or Eko or Ben. But they can now. Miles Straume. Say that 3 times fast.

The only question left in my mind is why were they dressed so wonderfully casual. Franks' Hawaiian shirt is a nice touch, but Dan was actually wearing a tie. A tie!
 

Good reasoning often leads to more questions.  Many in life are uncomfortable with that notion, but I choose not to be.  This is the first attempt I have seen to provide a schema, a broad paradigm, for why these people were shown acting the way they did off--and on--the island.  Congratulations, Mr. Joshzam, you have restored my faith in this board (Also, I would like to thank Mr. Creflo, my producer, my agent, and or course mom and dad....gettin ready for the Oscars you know).

3
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 11, 2008, 11:57:35 PM »
If she were working for Dharma or Abaddon at the time of the bear scene, then she wouldn't be moving about with a neophyte.  She would have been secretive and certainly wouldn't suggest that TPTB (acronym) were faking the crash.  She would behave like any good Dharma operative....weird and quiet.

4
Theories & Speculation / Re: theory on numbers
« on: February 11, 2008, 11:30:00 PM »
the numbers refer to the producer's favorite episodes of "The Family Guy."

5
Theories & Speculation / Re: Have we had a sneaky flashforward already?
« on: February 11, 2008, 11:26:54 PM »
I have often wondered if some of Locke's experiences were forwards....particularly when he was a home inspector....or were a mixture of realities.

6
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 11, 2008, 11:23:33 PM »
Forward:
Dan crying without reason.
Charlotte knowing to look for a Dharma belt on a dead polar bear in the desert.  (Remember, if you believe it to be a flashback, then Charlotte had yet to be recruited and would have been baffled by the bear/belt).

Unknown:
Frank
Miles

Back:
Naomi

Now back to the Family Guy mini marathon on TNT

7
Episode 4x02 / Why Only Six?
« on: February 11, 2008, 10:31:55 PM »
How many originally went with Jack?  What happened to the rest?  The helicopter can't carry eleven (the six, boaties, and Ben), so there must be over one trip or another way off.

8
Episode 4x02 / Re: Hurley's comment to Jack
« on: February 11, 2008, 09:38:46 PM »
I think that the more important part of the conversation took place earlier.  Hurley says that he should have went with Jack.  I wrote about this in another thread, but to paraphrase....that doesn't make sense.   Something bad is going to steer Hurley towards the Jackets. 

9
Episode 4x02 / Re: Purpose of a Cow?
« on: February 11, 2008, 09:26:15 PM »
The cow sounded like a dietc fur.  Very strange.

10
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 11, 2008, 09:02:28 PM »
Infidels, beware the wrath of Puff! 

Under the premise of AIRHEAD, there are no flashbacks or flashforwards.....there are just flashes.  Desmond time travelled or went to an alternate reality.  Things may have been slightly different, memories of the island came back slowly, and he went back to a situation that he most wanted to change (only to find he couldn't). 

The flashes of the boaties were short, targeted, and all pointed to some intuition that the crash was a cover up.  Again, none of their responses make sense (except perhaps Frank's).  Since everybody has always been introduced by flashbacks, you assume that these are what you are watching.  Additionally, since we have been getting used to flashforwards, you assume they'll switch back to flashbacks. 

The real answer to all of this is that we don't know.  Poll away. 

If the mechanism to get off the island takes you to a reality and time for which you most wish to return, and memories of the island return slowly, then it all makes sense and it is brilliant storytelling.  It doesn't mean anything to me whether the boaties were introduced by backs or forwards (except Naomi), but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.  Program terminated.

11
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 11, 2008, 03:45:52 PM »
There already has been a parallel reality on Lost so your wager doesn't make sense.  Desmond already made the leap of which I have spoken and yet you question the logic of AIRHEAD.  Infidels!  What for my logic you challenge?  How will I get to 14000 posts and reach posting nirvana like Mr. Jugdish.  Let us see you post a complete description of your ideas, Mr. CBW, explaining everything....everything....along with the reasoning that you applied at each step.  For that matter, let Juggy show us what he has figured out playing critic on this board for so long.  Give us your encompassing theories and let us all see how clever you are.  Post a new topic, each of you, and give us what we've missed.  The show will finally make sense.  Oh bliss, to be a skeptic. 

12
Episode 4x02 / Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
« on: February 11, 2008, 01:09:47 PM »
earlier airplane toys have had the third engine. 

13
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 11, 2008, 01:08:15 PM »
How does one account for the food drops?  What was the most recent "dated" food on the drops?  

If light can bend, then "the island" could be in Kansas.  Where are we Vincent

If food drops are made, then how come the losties don't notice the sound of the airplane or helicopter?

Why is all the food still in Dharma packages when A1 steaksauce is now owned by a cigarette company?  Surely the producers turned down some nice little product placement spiffs in order to keep the packages generic.

Getting to the island is doable.  We saw that with Juliet.  But, why the need for drugs on the way?  Is the trip across infinity (as in a Stephen King short story)?  Are memories changed?  Are realities shifted?  Do you have to be asleep along the journey to remain in an equal reality?

The most telling evidence that something is not right can be found in Faraday's crying.  He is now married.  (I didn't see a ring on his finger when he is on the island).  His wife doesn't understand his emotional response so this must not be his norm.  And, he is oblivious to his own connection to 815.

If these were flashbacks, then you have to premise that Faraday is a total nutcase who is emotionally labile.  In that event, when he did find the survivors, he would have been estatic and wouldn't have made the "not our primary objective" statement.  (He would have been balling instead).

What unites three of the four boaties is that they did not believe that the crash of 815, as seen on the television, was true.  

Why would these three people have such a response?  Well, you say, "that is why they were recruited."  But, again, if that were the case, then these three would be estatic and hugging the losties.  Well, you say, they are more concerned with their mission....Ben.  Well, that may be, but how does a little statement such as, "I knew that wreckage was fake," interfere.

Well, it doesn't.  Hence, their behaviors are inconsistent with the scenes off of the island if such scenes are flashbacks.  Ergo, they are behaving irrationally or the scenes are flashforwards.  Since we have not seen gross irrational behavior out of the four, we are left only  to conclude that the scenes are flashforwards and that the writers love to f bomb our minds.  

These guys, along with the Oceanic 6, have had a Desmond like transition.  The Oceanic 6 have obviously gone to a different reality the the boaties, but the ten have made it off the island.

If Charlotte finds a polar bear and Dharma belt in the desert, then she's gonna want to publish.....why participate in the cover-up?

If Frank should have been the pilot of 815....why participate in the cover-up?

If seeing the news of 815 makes Daniel cry.....why be complicit?

Again, the three wouldn't.  In fact, they would fight any cover-up.....and this is what we are seeing in the flashFORWARDS.

Parallel universes, Desmondland, alternate realities....we're already seeing them.  We're not the only ones on this island and we all know it!

14
Episode 4x02 / Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« on: February 10, 2008, 08:12:37 PM »
The producers said that it is inevitable that the time-bending story of Lost will continue to use looks both backward and forward. "It's absolutely inevitable, not to migrate completely away from flashbacks, but at least to find a new paradigm for storytelling that changed up the nature of the show," Cuse said. "Moving forwards, you'll get a mix. Every week will hopefully be a guessing game as to not just who will be focused on, but when we're focusing on them. Flash-forwards will be a part of season four, yes."
 
Just found this on the sci-fi channel.

It appears that we are supposed to question the timing or the reality of the scenes.

15
Episode 4x02 / Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
« on: February 10, 2008, 07:43:21 PM »
The airplane from the pilot episode is a lockeed L-1011.  You can see this due to the third engine at the tail rudder.  In the opening scene this week, the airplane identified as O 815 lacks that third engine.  It is a Boeing 777. 

Prop error?
Bad cover-up job?
Wrong jet crash?
Different reality?

You know my thoughts on this one.  There was no reason for the model used in the opening scene not to have matched a L-1011.  The difference was purposeful.  Magic box, new reality.

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