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Messages - simeean

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Episode 5x16 / Re: You found your loophole
« on: May 17, 2009, 03:59:36 PM »
first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.

I do think that's what each one is representing, but the rules don't quite work.... If each has to play by the other's rules, then there's no way Jacob could ever "win", unless #2 was destined to die, in which case there would be no game to begin with.... Though that would pretty much guarantee that he DOES win, by dying and proving his free will argument..... Also, if #2 were to find this as the loophole, then he'd basically be proving himself wrong.... Actually, now I kind of like this idea, it ties my brain in knots, and that's always fun...  ;D

Episode 5x16 / Re: You found your loophole
« on: May 17, 2009, 02:57:07 PM »
maybe everyone is over complicating it.  good vs. bad, god vs. devil.  Jacob wants people to exercise free will and deal with it..but blackie dude is the one who tells them to do something bad.  Take young kate stealing..maybe it was blackie whispering in her ear so to speak, saying steal it! and we only see jacob, fixing the problem.  you know the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other...

I was thinking this too, we've only just met Jacob, maybe the next season will show us the flashbacks where #2 went to visit everyone...

No!  You're right. It's too late.  I'm going to bed.  Good night.  :D

Haha, but it IS a good story... I like it much better than anything O'Connor wrote  :-X

Good night! I hope you don't have lottery nightmares....

She is more about the nature of the human beast - and its possibility to transcend itself.  That was about one of my favorite book nods on the show yet.  Her story The Lottery can still give me nightmares!

She didn't write The Lottery, that was Shirley Jackson.

and Flannery O'Connor was all about catholicism & morality.... and segregation, if you want to read black & white into it.... and her stories usually had some sort of obvious foreshadowing, making them more about the characters than the story...

Episode 5x16 / Re: You found your loophole
« on: May 15, 2009, 04:53:33 PM »
That's what I really want to know. How Ben got healed.
Jacob asked Ilana for help, Ilana helped him bringing Sayid to the island,
Sayid tries to kill young Ben, Ben is brought to the temple by Richard.
What happened in that temple?

I would say Jacob's enemy healed Ben, because Ben is the one that will kill Locke,
take his body, keep it safe and bring him back to the island and Ben is the one who will
kill Jacob.
But why would Richard do that if he is on Jacob's side.

If Jacob healed Ben, why would he do that? He doesn't like him, never wants to see him,
gives him cancer and Ben will kill him.

Widmore was right when he told Ben that Jacob wanted baby Alex to be killed. She is Ben's weakness
and now Jacob's enemy used her to make sure that Ben would listen to him (fake Locke).

Maybe Ben doesn't know? He's pretty pissed at Jacob for never speaking to him, never appearing to him, when Jacob is actually the entire reason Ben is even alive.... More daddy issues for Ben? There's got to be a reason they haven't gone back to Ben's healing after so many episodes... That may be the loophole, Jacob can only be killed by someone who was... whatever-was-done-to-Ben.... by Jacob?

Episode 5x16 / Re: Paradise Lost
« on: May 15, 2009, 03:19:39 PM »
well actually, paradise lost ripped off the bible in a fictionalized sensationalized sort of way, they say they had the whole story mapped out from the beginning, and they DID call it lost.... TPTB have a Milton-complex?  :)

Episode 5x16 / Re: Jacob a god?
« on: May 15, 2009, 03:11:58 PM »
I can see that, but what are the two's connection to it? They seem to be a bit more human than human....

Maybe they've just been involved with humans for too long... Their whole interaction reminded me of the book Good Omens (Neil Gaiman/Terry Pratchett), if anyone's read that.... Angels who have been hanging out on Earth for too long pick up some silly human traits...

Episode 5x16 / Re: So is this Locke's 'Bad Twin'?
« on: May 15, 2009, 03:05:54 PM »
It's the guy form the beginning since near the end they have another conversation at the end which proves it....

and I get the feeling he's been at this for a long time now, he's pretty good at assuming others' identities...

Episode 5x16 / Re: the ashes around the cabin
« on: May 15, 2009, 03:04:19 PM »
I was seeing a pyramid too. It also looks like the statue is on a boat/canoe in the water. I see what looks to be a boat with waves. Or it just could be the statue is on a big rock.

yeah, it kind of looks like it's surfing.... it made it all the way up the Nile and around to the other side of the world, only to get smashed on that silly island...?

Episode 5x16 / Re: the ashes around the cabin
« on: May 15, 2009, 02:15:43 PM »

PS What is that weird diagonal wall of pillars next to the statue? Hmm

I was wondering that too, what IS that, in the shadow of the statue???
It almost looks like 2 pyramids, if you look closely... One for each of our weird friends....?

Episode 5x16 / Re: Jacob a god?
« on: May 15, 2009, 02:10:14 PM »
Well, Jacob definitely had the whole "suffering savior" look at his execution - like he was thinking, "I have to die because they want me to die."  But I say the island isn't done.  The island was not what was trying to kill Jacob.  Jacob is not the island.  Smokey is not Jacob.  Jacob is Jacob and the island is the island.  I am thrilled with that.  Let the bad guys come in all their manifestations.  It only takes one to stand up against them.

Where is the island as of late in this? Not navigationally, but story wise? Are we sure that they are not the Isle, in and of themselves?  Locke (Pleather and Leather version) talk of the Isle's healing properties, as we saw to heal lil' bespectacled ben, Ricardus took him to the temple, where smokey lives, whom has all but been named as Man#2's alter ego...there is where a crux lies to be answered or has it been...Is it of it's own volition (the Isle), or are these two manifestations of it or vice versa...are they "beings" merely harnessing it in a primitive nay different manner than what the DI want to....

Maybe the island is just a decidedly neutral playing field, like a controlled laboratory for their experiments.... It keeps anyone from dying of "natural" causes, and lets the only VARIABLES be the players themselves... That would also explain the need for course correction...

Episode 5x16 / Re: Jacob a god?
« on: May 14, 2009, 02:22:30 PM »
You can't spell Scientology without Lost.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT diminish tha value of LOST by equating it with scientology.

Not quite going there, but I vote for aliens.   ;D

I'd rather not think about bible stories, so to tie in all the religious elements, I'm leaning toward the idea that "aliens" (or something) showed up and gave everyone all the ideas that led to similar stories in different religions. That's why Jacob keeps bringing people (like the ones on the ship, on 815, etc) to the island even though they always destroyed each other, they ended up with the same result but came up with different interpretations for what was going on every time... I guess what I'm saying is that it's not about religion, but about where religion came from, and how it's all just kind of an accidental development resulting from human nature...

(just not a fan of organized religion, sorry...)

Episode 5x16 / Re: You found your loophole
« on: May 14, 2009, 02:04:34 PM »
That's what I'm trying to figure out, this whole time it's been Widmore vs. Ben, but now where do they fit into anything? Are they still opposing sides? Or are they just part of Jacob's plot to prove #2 wrong? Is their little war just an educational strategy game, like tic tac toe in Wargames?

Episode 5x16 / Re: "Still trying to prove me wrong..."
« on: May 14, 2009, 04:23:39 AM »
Just rewatched the opening scene.... What is Jacob trying to prove? He says that regardless of what happens (happens), everything leading up to the inevitable destruction is "just progress". The other guy (I can't call him Esau, too biblical for TV) seems to think that everything always ends the same, so they shouldn't bother playing the game again. Not Destiny vs. Free Will, they both agree that the end result is the same. Are they fighting over the nature of humanity? Whether we're worth dealing with at all? Kind of like Lucifer not thinking that God's creation was as cool as he said it was... But now that's getting too biblical again.... I think I'll go read Paradise LOST  :P

I liked the time travel stuff, I hope this doesn't get all religion-y now  :-X

in one way or one religion or another it has already always been religious.. i think they are prollyheading into the mythilogical spiritual side now... like the personified good/ evil are living all eternty in a loop so they make wagers knowing that each time it will end the same but each time the "rogress" gets them closer to the right decsion to make.. or finding that "loophole" they spoke of... variables??? nobody was really killed this episode... i thought there was going to be a death... i doubt jacob dies.. not yet anyway...

not exactly.... it was never about religion, it was about morality with a little mythology thrown in.... religion is just one way of teaching good & evil, right & wrong, etc.... that's all well and good, but if it's turning into a re-enactment of bible stories i'm not a happy camper.... i really don't see it going that way, i'm just panicking at the end of the season....

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