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Topics - nomteticus

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Episode 6x16 / Life after Death
« on: May 26, 2010, 09:30:09 PM »
I just saw the finale. I have a few things that are not clear to me, maybe we can all create a reality that makes sense (just like our losties tried to do with the ALT world).

So LOST, while being a pluri-mythological creation (just watch all the symbols on the church window), has this one axiom: There is Life after Death, and it has at least two levels - purgatory and enlightment.

All characters experience some sort of consciousness after death. We all knew that because Miles could apparently "hear the dead" and Hurley (and even Ben or MIB) could speak to them. This consciousness expresses itself differently. We know of at least two ways:

I Whispers - people who died on the island, did bad things and didn't leave anyone caring for them turn into whispers, and their punishment is to (eternally?) guide the living who are on the island.

II ALT Worlds - if a larger number of people share the same period as a reference point to the peak of their lives, by meaning a lot to eachother they can create their own purgatory/fake-paradise where their dreams can come true (find their loved ones, be successful/lucky in life, have the child they never had, etc.). Apparently it doesn't matter as much if you were good or bad, as long as you struggle for redemption (see Ben)

The world we see after the "LAX" episode is one of the millions of Alt Worlds collectively created. In these worlds, although emulating "the golden period" , time doesn't really run in a linear fashion. These worlds contain different types of people:

A. The people who created the world(s):
1) people ready to move on to the next level: all the people at the Church
2) people NOT ready to move on to the next level who know where they are: Ben, Miss Hawking, Daniel (partially), Rose/Bernard(?)
3) people who haven't yet figured out the nature of the world they live in: Charlotte, Ana Lucia, Miles, Dr. Chang, Alex, Rousseau

B. Fake people - now these are people who populate the ALT-worlds without their soul actually being inside them. They are made up by the people at point (A) to maintain a world consistency. They include:
1) random people you see on the street or the people required to run things to maintain the illusion of a real world (doctors, lawyers, engineers, workers, etc.)
2) people who the losties knew but aren't themselves part of this Alt World, they are maybe part of a different Alt World but also appear in this world as triggers for the (A) people: Minkowski, Rose/Bernard(?), Helen, Locke's dad(?), Hurley's mom, Keamy (it doesn't make sense for Keamy to be killed unless he doesn't really exist in this purgatory and he is just used as a device to get Sayid, Sun and Jin on the path to enlightment). They are like NPC's (Non playing characters) in a computer game, helping the actual characters to move on.

This theory would explain why some people get enlightened (as in "find their constant") and some do not (the B people who are really just triggers) and also some would still choose to stay even though they are enlightened. Ben for example couldn't leave because he still had to enlighten Alex and Rousseau that they are really dead (mostly because of him). It was his duty and he sticked to it. Daniel didn't leave because he wasn't fully enlightened and because he still needed to patch things up with Charlotte and his parents before moving on.

Richard, Jacob and MIB are not in the ALT because they are in different ALT's. Richard is probably with his wife somewhere in Tenerife, MIB is probably with his real mother and Jacob probably with the crazy mother (speculation of course).

The people who the Losties know prior to LAX are not their constants and cannot enlighten one another. So Juliet isn't Jack's constant, Miles isn't Sawyer's, etc.

So when the Church people leave, this made-up world still exists, up until the people I described at A2 and A3 also move on. This would also explain why some people can die (Omar, Keamy) and never be enlightened (they don't really exist here).

If this is correct, there are still some questions:

1) Are Rose and Bernard A2's or B2's? I mean they seem enlightened (Rose helps John, Bernard helps Jack) but they don't move on, so either they have unresolved business (unlikely), or they are not really in that world (since they spent most of their time on the island and with each other, they probably have a different Alt-World that only the two of them created).

2) Why would Juliet dream up a world where she has a son with Jack if she really loves Sawyer? Now we may answer this question thinking that David is more Jack's creation than Juliet's. If the Alt world actually begins in 2004, Jack and Juliet are already divorced, so there is no actual romance involved.

3) Is Nadia actually a Non-Playing-Character (B2) ? Because I would not imagine Sayid wouldn't go enlighten her after being enlightened by Shannon, unless she is just a part of the setting and her soul is not really in the AltWorld. But where would her soul be? She wasn't on the island, so she is not part of the collective creation, but wouldn't she be in a world with Sayid, since he seems to be the only person she ever cared about? So where exactly is Nadia's soul?

4) Penny is part of the Church team even though she is only connected through Desmond. Why is she the exception? Sayid didn't get Nadia and Locke didn't get Helen because they weren't real. But why is Penny real and those others are not?

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Episode 6x14 / Valenzetti equation vs "The Light"
« on: May 13, 2010, 12:28:18 PM »
The writers said in many interviews this year that they didn't want to go into the specifics about what the island is because they were afraid that it would be like the midchlorians in Star Wars or like the discussion between Neo and The Architect and that it would be cheesy and unnecessary. I understand that.
They also said that the numbers-are-candidates reveal is better than the numbers-are-core-values-of-Valenzetti equation, because it can better relate to the characters we all know and love (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, JinSun, Sayid). Do you agree with this? I think the way they handled the numbers and the cave of light was pretty lame and illogical.

1. The Valenzetti theory - a scientist somehow discovered an equation that predicts when the end of the world will happen (highly unlikely, but not impossible). He finds out the core numbers to the equation (4 8 15 16 23 42) and Dharma is built in order to change them. They find the island, a place that has strange electromagnetic properties and do their experiments untill finally meeting their end. The numbers, since they are basically the key to our existence, spring out everywhere, including in Hurley's lottery ticket. The Others are the original inhabitants of the island, lead by the mysterious Jacob, and they are trying to stop Dharma because they believe in destiny. They know what they're doing, just like Dharma know what they're doing.

2. The current theory - there is a cave with light in it. The light is both good and bad. A small part of it is in every soul, but if you want a lot if it it can corrupt you. It must not go out, since that will mean total annihilation. There must always be a guardian to protect the light. He has the power to make it invisible to the human eye (MIB not finding the cave). He can choose his successors by bringing people to the island as candidates. There are 360 candidates, probably from 1850 to present day. Jacob watches the candidates throughSomehow (we don't know how and probably never will) some candidates are crossed out from the list. Only 6 of them are important, and, coincidence, all six of them were on the same flight (makes you wander why Jacob bothered with "The Others", DHARMA, etc if only those 6 people mattered).  The Others, Dharma etc were just manipulated by Jacob to come to the island so he could get his replacement and they are not important to the story. Neither Dharma or the others knew what they were doing. Dharma was doing silly experiments while the others followed a guy they never saw and that eventually got them all killed, Jacob choosing only to save Hurley and Jack.

I for one prefered the first story. I find "the audience don't care about Valenzetti" line the writers are giving us total BS, just like the current "cave of light" theory, that is kind of lame. The numbers don't make any sense anymore (like they did with Valenzetti) and it's all one big mess. Does anyone prefer the current story to the initial Valenzetti thing? Do you think this makes more sense/ is better writing? Do you not feel cheated by making all the groups we cared about in the first five seasons not important??

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Episode 6x14 / Time of Jacob & MIB's birth
« on: May 12, 2010, 02:43:10 AM »
I am very courious about one thing: what year (or at least what period) did the ship with Jacob & MIB's mother crash on the island?
Since they were speaking a rather American English and there were ships big enough to cross the ocean, I assume it was not too far away from when the Black Rock crashed. If so, why the latin? And what about those egyptians???

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Episode 6x10 / Original vs Alt timeline - what will they choose?
« on: April 07, 2010, 06:17:53 PM »
It was a very confusing episode, but what I got from it through "plot device reborn-Charlie" and "plot device reborn-Daniel" and "all-knowing Eloise" was that this alternate world is a place where everybody gets to have their (almost) biggest wish come true (Desmond being accepted by Widmore, Nadia alive, Claire raising Aaron (Kate and Claire's wish), Jack's son, Alex alive (Ben's wish), Miles living with dad, Charlotte alive and musician-Faraday, lucky Hurley, Sun and Jin running away together without Sun's affair, etc. (not sure about Sawyer though, maybe Juliet alive and not-killing-fake-Sawyer?). And this seems to point out that the ATL is the result of MIB's promises (he did promise Nadia to Sayid), so as me and some other folks were saying for a couple of weeks now, MIB apparently won the battle, killed Jacob for good, sunk the island and gave everyone a second chance to live out their dreams without Jacob ever interfering.

BUT

Apparently, some people believe that this new reality is PHONEY. Charlie wants to die so he can be in the other timeline with Claire, not knowing that he died there. Desmond seems to want to get back to the timeline where he and Penny have a child, because he feels that the new reality is fake, and probably most of them feel the same. So the show could end by them all meeting (since Desmond will try to bring them together) and merging the two realities back into the original one. But that doesn't make any sense, since most or them are DEAD or MOURNING their dead in this bloody timeline. They would be better off trying to live their best in the ATL (Sawyer finding Juliet, Des marrying Penny and having Charlie, Daniel fulfilling his love for Charlotte etc). So why would they go back, unless it is a necessary sacrifice to, ahem, save the world (cough). Maybe MIB is free in the ATL and the evil starts spreading, and they will stop it, but the whole cork thing makes no sense to me since the world is already a frakked up place.

In conclusion, I think that MIB initially wins, creates the ATL, but memories from the OTL slip into our losties minds and make them want to reject ATL, return to OTL and re-insert the cork, once again trapping Smokey, as Jack/Hurley/Sun/Kate becomes the new Jacob and history loops once again. But I still see no immediate reason to reject ATL, just because "it doesn't feel right". If you had a chance to be with your loved one (after a supposed deal with the devil), wouldn't you chose to? And what would change your mind except for the threat of Armageddon?

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Episode 6x08 / The devil betrayed me. He took my body
« on: March 24, 2010, 12:51:21 AM »
MIB said this line to Richard talking about Jacob. He's probably lying, but what if he is not? What does that mean? MIB keeps insisting that he was a man, that he had a life, friends, a crazy mother, and now that Jacob took his body. We know he can change bodies. He was in MIB's body, now he is in Locke's body. But did he have an original body and did Jacob disposess him? Is it like when God banished Lucifer to Hell?

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Season 6 / They WILL answer the FOOD DROPS !
« on: March 21, 2010, 02:19:46 PM »
In the latest podcast, Damon and Calrlton said that they will answer how those food drops arrived at the island in Season 2, but that the answer might not be in the show itself. While I am thrilled to get an answer to this old question, I wonder if there will be some sort of post-Lost ARG where they will try to tie all the loose threads, and how would you feel about that? I would be glad if they did, even though it's not as fun as doing it in the main storyline. Maybe that's how they will fit the Valenzetti story in too.

Podcast here: http://abc.go.com/shows/lost/podcasts , the audio podcast from March 11th

P.S. For all Annie lovers, they will not tell us more about Ben's childhood love, Annie. Too bad.

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Episode 6x07 / (almost) answer! - boat from season 5
« on: March 17, 2010, 03:58:22 AM »
I think it's safe to assume that the boat that Juliet, Sawyer, Miles, Locke were shooting and being shot at while time travelling last season was filled with Widmore's guys (the "IT department"). We will probably see it in a later episode...

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Episode 6x06 / THE RULES = Separation of Powers
« on: March 10, 2010, 08:40:37 PM »
 OK, I just wrote the same thing in another post, but I am writing a new topic because it's a new idea (I think). We know there are rules, but we're not sure what they are. The rules imply that the island has some sort of Constitution, that describes the structure of the "political system", and the relationship between its parts. If you view Jacob, MIB and the Others as a political system analogy, it makes sense to think that the rules describe the separation of powers. The constitution has this basic principle: the purpose of this arrangement is to "protect the island", just like the purpose of any state is to protect its people. The powers invested in order to do that are the following:


1. Jacob is the legislative power (aka Parliament, Congress etc). He sets the general rules and guidelines that all must follow, and he can't be judged or challenged (read: killed) as he has imunity. A one party Congress may seem bizarre, but most totalitarian systems had a general assembly, so it's not that far fetched. Richard is also part of the legislative power, as his purpose is to name the Prime Minister, with Jacob's consent and following the strange Dalai Lama rules. Jacob(via Richard) has the power to name and dissolve the executive (as some Parliaments do in Europe). Like any parliament, he is elected, but not periodically, just when he dies, the island (the people?) chooses one of the candidates, by means of natural selection (survivor takes all). So the remaining candidate takes all of the Congressional seats for as long as he lives (twisted democracy, but still).

2. The Others are the executive power (aka The Government). The Prime Minister (The President in USA), elected with the help of Richard, builds his cabinet of Ministers (Ellie had Widmore, Ben had Tom - external affairs, Ethan, Juliet - Health etc). They have to follow the general guidelines set by the legislative, but they may choose their own path of acheiving the main goal of protecting the island. Widmore (probably) chose to purge Dharma, Ben chose the 'save the babies' path and adopted a hostile "hawk" attitude towards the 815 survivors etc. The legislative can relieve the Prime Minister of his role, just like Widmore got the boot by Richard. Before a new Prime Minister is selected, Richard takes over the leadership role, just like in some European Countries the leader of the Senate takes over the President's role.

3. Smokey is the judiciary power. He can judge members of the executive and people outside the political system, and they accept him as such (Ben was going to be judged). He cannot judge the legislative since they have immunity, but neither can the legislative (Jacob) touch the judiciary.

Now this system was all going fine, until corruption arised both in the Executive and in the Judiciary. Smokey used a former Prime Minister to turn against his own party, lifting Jacob's immunity (by means of dagger :) ) so that the Judiciary can judge him (by means of boot in fire). Therefore, the legislative was dissolved (The President can dissolve the Parliament in some countries), and the people (The island) must choose a new Congress from the candidates. But since MIB is corrupt, he tries to create anarchy by gradually making the candidates change their mind about participating, and that's when the spirit of the island (the people?) warns him that he broke the rules. But since he is the judiciary, who will judge him? Who watches the watchmen? That's the question of Season 6, and we will probably find out.

Some of these comparisons may seem forced, and some of it is speculative, but they do shed some light on the possible nature of the RULES. What do you think?


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Episode 6x05 / MIB is the winner
« on: March 03, 2010, 06:17:39 AM »
I said this in another post, but I think we're close to getting one BIG answer to the questions "who wins the war between Jacob and MIB?" and "what are the flashsideways"?

In the flashsideways, the island is buried underground, but the world still goes on, negating the importance Jacob has put on protecting the island. So we know that Jacob is wrong. The world may not be better without the island, but it's obviously not worse. Now, how can the flashsideways world be connected to the big war? Simple. What we see in the alternate time is what happens if MIB wins. The island is gone, Jacob isn't there to influence the Others' lives anymore, Sayid gets what he is promised (Nadia alive) and so on. It is a remodelled world without Jacob, and guess what, it's not a disaster!

Now you ask me how did MIB manage to sink the island and negate all the on-island Lostie experience? Well, he may have used the donkey wheel, or even the numbers in a way, who knows? But the point is, he is not evil, just a man who wants to go home.

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Episode 6x04 / Hurley not noticing the NUMBERS
« on: March 01, 2010, 08:44:56 PM »
So how come Hurley is in this strange new lighthouse, and he doesn't even notice the names on the wheel?
I can undestand Jack not giving a damn, but Hurley? He doesn't seem to care that much, he seems more like Jacob's puppet. Is he controled by Jacob and not just influenced?
He should have noticed the numbers (since he is apparently obsessed by them) and yet he didn't shriek when Jack said "turn it to 23". Why wouldn't he look at the other numbers?

I think the whole numbers story is rebranded as Jacob's candidates, while initially being the core numbers to Valenzetti's equation. In this new light, their former relevance (bad luck to Hurley, Swan hatch) is lost, so the writer's aren't insisting on it. A shame, since the first explanation was way better.

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OK, this title is way too pretentious for my current level of knowledge, but I hope it got your attention at least.  :)
Like all of us, I am trying to make sense of the whole Jacob/Esau thing, and I'm thinking it may not be as simple as Locke put it ("Two players, two sides — one is light, one is dark."), as in there may not be a God vs Devil sort of battle after all. Bear with me.

I believe that Jacob and Esau are meant as two representations of the same God, sort of like the way The Holy Trinity is meant to be seen as faces of the same God. But whereas in Christianity, God represents 'the good', leaving all of 'the evil' to the devil, some schools of gnosticism have thought God to represent both good and evil. Such a form is in the shape of the god Abraxas. The nature of Abraxas is contradictory, depending on your gnostic source, but Carl Jung tried to give it a more definite form:

"God and devil are distinguished by the qualities fullness and emptiness, generation and destruction. Effectiveness is common to both. Effectiveness joineth them. Effectiveness, therefore, standeth above both; is a god above god, since in its effect it uniteth fullness and emptiness.
This is a god whom ye knew not, for mankind forgot it. We name it by its name Abraxas. It is more indefinite still than god and devil.

Abraxas is the sun, and at the same time the eternally sucking gorge of the void, the belittling and dismembering devil.
The power of Abraxas is twofold; but ye see it not, because for your eyes the warring opposites of this power are extinguished.

Abraxas begetteth truth and lying, good and evil, light and darkness, in the same word and in the same act. Wherefore is Abraxas terrible. It is love and love’s murder. It is the saint and his betrayer.  It is the brightest light of day and the darkest night of madness.

It is the mightiest creature, and in it the creature is afraid of itself."

Carl Jung - The Seven Sermons to the Dead (1916)

In popular culture, Abraxas entered through Santana's 1970 album with the same name, Therion's 2004 song from the album 'Lemuria', and Charles Manson's claims of being Abraxas. From Therion's lyrics:

"Eros and Thanatos are brances on the same old tree
Rooted in the soil of shadow and light

If God was seperated from the dark twin, the Devil
Could he ever know the soul of mankind?"
Therion - Abraxas (2004)

So what if Jacob and Esau are faces of the same entity, similar to the God Abraxas? That would explain why one can't kill the other, as they need one another to be whole. And that may also be why Smokey (The Holy ghost?) has to judge the Others, even though Smokey seems closer to the man in black than to Jacob. They are afraid of eachother and they want to kill one another, but they can't. So (let's call him) Abraxas wants traps his dark side (kaos, maybe) in 'Jacob's cabin', and then goes on with his plan to change history. But the dark side escapes and finds a way to 'exorcise' Abraxas, using Locke and Ben as pawns.

And if that wasn't confuzing enough, another question arises: why would God have trouble with changing history? Why would the man in black find it pointless to interfere? What if LostAbraxas isn't a God, but an angel, put there by the real God to observe mankind, not allowing him to change mankind's destiny. We now turn to Walter Benjamin, a prominent member of the Frankfurt School:

"This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet. The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the angel can no longer close them. The storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress."
Walter Benjamin - Theses on the Philosophy of History (1939)
Benjamin was refering to this painting http://felixgilman.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/klee_engel.jpg.

So maybe it's not Abraxas after all, but the Angel of History. And part of him (Jacob) would like to change the destiny, to 'make whole what has been smashed'. But the other part (Man in Black) reminds him that 'They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same'. And that they can't do a bloody thing about it, since the storm of time is blowing in the angel's wings. But, as the dialectic spiral progresses, Jacob reminds his dark half that it's not all for nothing, and all that happens during this storm is progress.

So what do you think? Abraxas, the Angel of History, or both? Or is the analogy far-fetched? Do you think the writers had these two concepts in mind or was is just a coincidence?

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Episode 5x16 / Saving the World
« on: May 14, 2009, 09:20:53 PM »
What if DHARMA and the Hostiles tolerated eachother because they held the same purpose: to save the world from the upcoming holocaust.

1. According to the ARG, Dharma's purpose on the island was to change the core numbers in the Valenzetti equation (4,8,15,16,23,42) in order to change the outcome - the end of the world. The show never confirmed this, but Damon and Carlton said that the ARG is mostly canon (esp. Valenzetti and Hanso). Today we find out from Radzinsky that the Swan needs to be built, since he spent 8 years planning it in order to 'change the world'. So we can probably assume that the Swan was the key to at least changing one of those numbers. But they failed. The incident happened, and The Swan could not be used for its official purpose.

2. We don't know much about the others, but we do know that they believe they are the 'good guys', trying to do what's best for the island and the world. We know that 'the one who will save us all' is in the Shadow of the statue, and Jacob seems to be the one referred. Jacob, unlike his nemesis, believes in people and in the progress they can achieve. They also talk about loops. What if Jacob is trying to change the world so that it doesn't end anymore, breaking the loop apart? In that case, he would instruct his people to apply his plan.

So DHARMA arrives on the island. Jacob is not thrilled, but he gives them a chance, since they're both aiming the same goal. But when DHARMA fails, Jacob thinks that the scientific method is doomed to fail, and orders the Purge. Meanwhile, being the Taweret that he is (speculation, I know), he tries to prevent the death of his people by trying to solve the 'birth on the island'. Since his statue is destroyed, he doesn't have the power to do it himself, so he sends out for Juliet. When that doesn't work, he gets mad, again  blaming the scientific method, and arranges for Ben (the appointed leader) to die.

So they could all be working to save the world. This makes a lot of conflicts seem like children fights. Locke vs Jack - irrelevant. Widmore vs Ben - just a medium level power struggle with no important consequences. The appearance of Jacob in this episode really diminishes the importance of most of our 'leaders' (Ben, Richard, Widmore, Eloise, Locke).

That's why Widmore and Eloise and Ben were trying to get all of the people on the island. They hate eachother, but they are on the same side. The real conflict, or war, as Widmore put it, is between Jacob and The Black Clothed Dude. And that's season 6 for you  ;D Will they join the Others and 'save the world', or will they choose the other side and end the loop as usual?

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Episode 5x15 / Faraday and... Obama ???
« on: May 12, 2009, 08:28:16 PM »
I watched the episode for the second time today, and I noticed something very strange.
When Eloise looks through Faraday's journal, you can get a glimpse of two pages of it, and on the left page you can clearly see "OBAMA" written with red ink. Over "Obama" you can see the word "TIME", and below "Obama" it seems to read "FUTURE", but I'm not sure about that one.
Wow! That's a shock!
We could dismiss it as an easter egg, but since they are in 2004 when Faraday last sees the mainland, Bush is still president and Obama is not even in the picture (Since Kerry was his contender back then). So does that mean that Faraday knew the future? Or is it just an unintended mistake?



I'm sorry if this has been discussed already.

P.S. Whatever happened to Sledgeweb's famous sceencaps? My screencap is pretty bad, but it will have to do.

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Episode 5x15 / Amy not an Other?
« on: May 07, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »
I know it's not related to this episode, but in the last Lost official podcast D&C answered the "what's up with amy and her husband in hostile territory" question in the following way: they were just having a picnic and they accidentally stepped slightly over the line. So I guess it's no mystery here. They didn't confirm that she is not an other, but the response seems to indicate that it all was just a coincidence. I'm making this post since a lot of us were speculating on Amy's loyalties.
A question remains how come Ethan went with the others, but the answer may be a simple one: he didn't like his parents (happens) and he wanted to get away, apparently not caring that they will all die. Or maybe he's been smoke-washed.

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General Spoiler Talk / Little Juliet ?
« on: April 23, 2009, 06:24:10 PM »
Hey there, I just looked at The Variable's cast list on IMDB and I found out that someone will play Juliet as a child.
Wow! I didn't think that little Juliet would have any play in this...
Where do you think she will appear? On the island in 77 or somewhere on land, since Faraday was in Ann Arbour?
Why would her child story be relevant to the overall story? Was she born on the island? Is she special?
Please speculate...

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