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Messages - Thomas

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Episode 6x16 / Re: Did Locke have to die?
« on: May 28, 2010, 11:28:37 AM »
I think sometimes people miss the bigger point.

Locke died when Ben strangled him.    The smoke monster died when it was trapped in human form after the island was uncorked.    If the smoke monster had left the island as a human, he couldn't have caused that much trouble, but to keep him human would mean leaving the island uncorked.    That was destroying the island, and we can assume the rest of the world would have followed suit.   

Jacob's brother also died, although some part of him was changed into the smoke monster "the fate worse than death", the rest of him died.     Jacob's brother just wanted to leave, that wasn't bad in itself, but for the smoke monster to leave was a very bad thing.    If you didn't notice, the smoke monster had the tendancy to kill a lot of people.    Maybe if crazy momma had just told her son that she loved so much she didn't give a name that when he left the island he couldn't tell anyone about it, and then explained why, we wouldn't have had all the drama.    But she was crazy.   

The smoke monster was bad and had to die.   The light was good and needed to be protected.     The protectors went about their jobs in different ways.    Jacob did some bad things, we can assume that Hurley and Ben tried a kindler, gentler approach.   

Episode 6x15 / Re: Now you're like me
« on: May 19, 2010, 10:01:42 AM »
I think being "like" Jacob brings a lot.    Jacob had the ability to pull ships to the island, maybe he could control weather.   His mother; also "like" Jacob, destroyed MIB's camp and well.   I don't think she became a smoke monster, I think she just used powers over nature to destroy them.

Episode 6x15 / Re: Is Widmore dead?
« on: May 19, 2010, 09:56:43 AM »
Immediately thought that Ben was trying to do good by killing Widmore.  (overall good that is).  He didn't want Widmore to tell Smokey what Smokey needed to know.  I'm thinking in the end, Ben IS a good guy.

Agreed.  Ben seemed like he wanted to silence Widmore before he could help Locke.   Now he's staying close, pretending he wants to help, but hoping to set Locke up for the kill.

Episode 6x14 / There must be another power source....
« on: May 12, 2010, 12:27:29 PM »
As far as I can tell.....there are two forces on the island.    The first we saw last night is shared in part by everybody.    If everybody got hold of this power bad things would a protector of the power was needed.    That's what the crazy lady was there for.   We can assume that she got the job from someone else and so on.   Since it would be strange for a power that wants to get out to assign a protector to keep it in i'm going to assume that the other power is the island itself.    So the Protector is linked with the island power.       Jacob became the protector, so he's linked with the island.   

Then we have the "Brother"....he has some special abilities and knowlege.   Maybe the knowlege is just his dead mother coming and explaining things, maybe some other source was talking to him (the golden light)....either way, that brother's dead body is in a cave.    He was thrown into the light and smoke was released.    Smoke came out of the light.    The smoke, with characteristics of the "brother" came from the light and the light.   So Smokie is aligned with the golden light, which is to be kept from the world by Jacob, acting as an agent to the Island power.   

It's not which person is good which one is evil.   for the most part they are making choices and doing what they think is right.   It seems to me that the light power source is evil.    Everyone has a little, but if you throw a whole person in, you get a whole smoke monster of evil out.     If more people could get to the light, more evil smoke would come out...I think that is the risk......People can't be allowed to get to the golden light.   The smoke monster is the mobile form of the light, so he can't be allowed to get to more people.   If he does, maybe they'll be able to get back to the source and become like him.   When Brother dug up the light, crazy mom stopped them.   When Dharma started getting too close, they got wiped out too.    That's the protector's job.   That's what the island wants them to do, keep people away from that light at all costs.     

That being said, the original MIB seemed like a pretty cool kid that was stuck in a bad situation.    He was smart, and wanted to leave.    That wouldn't have been such a bad thing.    But he was knocked in the head by his over protective crazy mom because he was exposing the light to the world.    Jacob made things worse by throwing him into the light.    That formed the smoke monster who kept Brother's personality (maybe his soul).   Now instead of just having to keep people away from the light, he also has to keep the smoke monster from escaping.   More problems Jacob made for himself.   

Jacob has the power of the island, and can do some stuff, but smokie's no slouch either.    It seems to me that smokie, just like the island can talk to people and manipulate them.   The light could talk to Brother and used him to try to build the wheel, the island talks to Jacob and tries to keep smokie and the light under control.   The light told brother how to make the donkey wheel (why would the island power do that and who else could have known how to use the wheel power except one of the two powers).     Crazy mother stopped that plan, but Jacob in his anger gave the power even more ability as smokie.    I'm guessing someone else on the island, or someone else that comes will reopen the well, and aided by the smoke monster will install the wheel and give it a turn.  The island may jump back to egyptian times and get some more residents, who will build the temple and statues.   Some people will work with Jacob, but some will be manipulated by smokie.    Jacob and his smokie brother are at odds, because Jacob's job is to keep the light from the people and Smokie brother wants it released.   

Widmore is just your average greedy person that wants to get on the island and use the power.     He knows that smokie can't be released, but he will probably need to be stopped by the Island protector as well.     

All that being said, it would seem that Smokie and that Golden light need to be kept from getting off the island and the island gives people power to do this task.   The people themselves may handle things in a good way or a bad way, but it doesn't seem they have a lot of choices.    Whoever takes on the role of protector will have to deal with both Smokie and Widmore.

Desmond is linked with the Island power, so he's probably getting more than the rest who have to rely on what they hear and see.   He isn't afraid of Locke because he knows more about what the island can do to stop him. 

Episode 6x13 / Problem with the bomb.....
« on: May 11, 2010, 01:13:56 PM »
If Jack can't light a stick of dynamite to blow himself up, why can sawyer (also on the candidate list and touched by Jacob) pull a wire and ignite a bomb to kill himself.    It would seem that if Jack was right, then the bomb couldn't go off as set by Locke, then it should have also been true that none of the candidates should have been able to trigger the bomb that would kill themselves either.    Michael couldn't kill himself....but Saywer could?   Seems like a hole to me.   

Episode 6x12 / Re: First There Was The Monster
« on: April 26, 2010, 03:58:42 PM »
Soneone here once gave an analogy, I'll see if I can find it,

Basically Good/Evil like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder,

You may not think it evil to step on a spider or an ant, even if it bites you or fills your lawn with anthills, whatever your justification.
Someone else on the other hand may consider you evil for doing just that no matter the reason.

the reason given before was:
If someone told you that one of two things would definately happen depending on a choice you were to make.

A)  three million people will die instantly if you do not kill your neighbors kid by 3 pm.

You may not like the nieghbors kid so it wont matter to you if he dies and since three million people are at stake would it be evil or heroic for you to kill him if it meant saving those 3 million people?

B)  three million people will die instanty if you do not kill your child by 3 pm

Now obviously your child means alot more to you than any of those 3 million people.  So if you decide not to kill your son, you have effectivly sentenced 3 million others to die,
would you say if you do not kill him you are evil since you let 3 million die? yet killing your sone is pretty evil too.

Its not written here quite as well here as the original poster but I think you get the idea.

    To get a little biblical here.     Abraham was told to sacrifice his son Isaac.    Some people say "what a horrible thing for God to ask him to do"....    For all intents and purposes, Isaac was as good as dead, right up to the point where Abraham was stopped and given a Ram to take the place of his son.     Some might argue that God was being Evil.    What they don't think about is Abraham's faith.    He believed that the God that created the world from nothing, could bring his son back to him.    Abraham is known as the man of faith for the Christian, the Muslim and the Jew.   And for those that believe in God, Abraham was right.   Even if he had sacrificed his Son, God could have fixed it.

Now to apply this to Lost.  Jacob has said he can't offer absolution, he's not God.    Since it's a gray area with who is good and who is bad, the question is "Who can deliver on their promises?".   Who is really working for the force for good, what ever it is for the story.    If Smokey could get off the Island and restore order to the timeline and bring some kind of balance to the universe...then maybe he's the good guy.   If Jacob sees a bigger plan where all of our Losties are really dead anyway and by following his plan, they can all live happily ever after by moving on from this Island limbo then maybe he's the good guy.     I tend to lean toward Jacob, cause the smoke monster is just a killer and proven liar, but who knows.    For all we know, everyone on the island is dead.   Maybe when they "escaped" from the island...they were really just in some other reality that wasn't any more real than the sideways flash we're seeing now - maybe that's why Christian could show up there, but says he can't leave.    Maybe that's why they had to go back to the island.   They have to fix things and move on.   Maybe when smokie is dead, all the voices can move on along with our heroes...leaving someone behind to protect the Island gateway to the Lost after life.    Who knows....but just like in a's the winner that writes the history.    I think until then, we won't be able to say for sure who was right.   Hopefully at the end, it will be clear when the big picture is revealed.   That's what makes it a good story.

Episode 6x12 / Re: Was Desmond following Claire?
« on: April 26, 2010, 03:38:37 PM »
Yeah, I know, you're right.  It's just one of those things that frustrates me because it seems like it could've possibly been answered pretty satisfactorily with a ten-or-fifteen second scene, so why not go ahead and do it?  But that's why I don't do TV, I guess. 

I think you're bailing on the writers way too soon. There's still time for them to explain what it is that's happening with him.

Agreed. LOST has always been a show that likes to hol out on its mystery for a while. May be the case here too.

I agree there is hope for the writers, but if Desmond is "all seeing" he wouldn't need the manifest in the first place.   Since he did, he would need a way to find Claire.   Maybe he's getting some help from someone or something we don't understand.   Maybe he was going to see Illana and this really was a coincedence.

Episode 6x10 / Near Death Experience
« on: April 09, 2010, 09:32:28 AM »
Didn't notice any comments on this, so forgive me if it's been covered.

Did anyone make a connection between Charlie's near death experience on the plane and seeing across to the "true" time line and Juliet's actual death experience...where she was in and out....telling Saywer "it worked"... It seems like in death they are getting the big picture.   

If we go with that as a working idea, then Juliet comforts Sawyer with the information that maybe they did the right thing...she didn't say....we screwed up....she worked.     Then you add Charlie and Desmond seeing that they are in the wrong place, maybe they want to get over to Jack's current timeline and end the ALT. 

The piece that doesn't fit with this line of thinking is Daniel saying that the bomb caused the ALT, since he seems to agree that the ALT is a bad outcome.    This could be a case of Daniel not understanding the big picture, or it could be that the ALT is the result of something else, but Daniel is attributing it to the bomb.   

Just some random thoughts.

Episode 6x09 / Re: Why does Locke want the plane...
« on: April 05, 2010, 03:54:20 PM »
Wallace is MIB... dun dun dun.  Or maybe not.  I completely agree, there's no way that plane is going anywhere since they'd have to turn it around.  Even if MIB had force powers to do that, it would still need repairs.  No way I'd want to fly that thing.  And unless MIB knows how to fly planes, he better recruit Frank, which means besides blowing the plane up, the best way to prevent MIB from leaving is to kill Frank.

I don't understand why people think the plane is unusable.    Jake and Kate helped build the runway.   Lapidus landed it safely on a runway.    If there is a runway, all you have to do is turn the plane around and head out.   This seems to fit with the idea that it's been smokie, not Jacob manipulating the others most of the time.    They were building a runway, so the plane with lockes body could land and ultimately convince Ben to kill Jacob.   Locke can remove shackels without touching them, I have to guess he could also make the plane work.

Not that I think anyone's gonna fly away...I'm just sayin....

Episode 6x09 / Re: If Jin and Son are not married...
« on: April 01, 2010, 11:07:29 AM »
The "enhanced" episodes make it clear that the flash sideways shows us "what would have happened if flight 815 did not crash on the island".  This takes us back to the chicken vs. egg causality discussions that happened so much last season, but to me it essentially means:  every difference they show in the flash sideways can be causally linked to 815 not crashing on the island.

I think it goes further back than that.  Reason being, the island was under water during flight 815.  So something happened before the flight even took place to change things.  What and when, remains to be seen.

I guess I didn't state my position clearly enough.  It has been shown pretty well in previous seasons that there is a definite difference between the chain of causality and the sequence of time.  I am not saying that the differences in the flash sideways *started* (in a time sequence sense) with Flight 815 not crashing on the island -- there are lots and lots of things that have already proven this wrong.  I am saying that the differences in the flash sideways are *causally linked* to Flight 815 not crashing.  It leads to all sorts of interesting questions, but I think many of them are fruitful:

For example, we already know one.  Flight 815 not crashing started a causality chain that ends with Ben being a history teacher instead of the leader of the Others.  This goes something like:  Flight 815 doesn't crash, therefore Sayid doesn't come to the island, therefore Sayid doesn't travel back in time, therefore Sayid doesn't shoot young Ben in the stomach, therefore young Ben is never taken to the Others' temple to be healed, but instead leaves the Island peacefully with his father and goes back to the mainland where his intellectual bent eventually leads him to become a history teacher.  Because of the timeline disruptions, the chain of causality explains all sorts of differences that pre-date the plane crash (or lack thereof), even though they were caused by it.

Another example, Jin and Sun.  (The topic of this thread.)  Flight 815 does not crash, therefore Jin does not come to the island, therefore Jin does not travel back to 1974 Dharma, therefore something does not happen that would have convinced Sun's father to let her marry Jin, therefore Jin and Sun (when they eventually meet) become lovers instead of husband and wife, therefore Sun's father contracts to have them killed.  In the original timeline, there was no $25,000 in Jin's luggage; there was no contract on their life; and they were married (albeit unhappily).  I'm saying that, from a certain perspective, those differences were *caused* by the plane not crashing.

This is fun!

Lastly, the mother of all the crazy causality chains... Flight 815 did not crash on the island, therefore (what?) and therefore the island is underwater long before Flight 815 ever passes over it.  I have a feeling we'll learn what this chain of causality is in the upcoming episodes, and that Widmore's geophysicist will have something to do with it.

While the pop-ups are showing what happenned if the plane had not crashed....they are also showing a lot more.    The event that changed everything isn't the plane, it was the bomb.   The bomb happened way before the flight.    Because Ben and father were evacuated from the Island and never returned -> Ben grew up to take care of his father and become a teacher.   That has noting to do with the plane not crashing, it has to do with the bomb.    The threads go back to before Jin and Sun even met.   Something happened differently so the didn't get married, that also happened before the plane even took off.    So to say the flash sideways is just "what happened if the plane didn't crash"  seems to be understating it.       

Episode 6x08 / Re: Richard's Visit to Young Locke
« on: March 29, 2010, 08:34:10 AM »
Keep in mind that Richard's visits to Locke seemed to be tied to time traveling Locke showing up at camp back in the olden days with the compass given to him by Richard by the plane wreckage after removing the bullet.   Also, keep in mind that Richard was being manipulated at the time by Smokey/Locke.    It seems to me that Richard's visits were more part of the MIB's plot to kill Jacob.   He wanted to establish Locke as the leader, so when he took Locke's body, he'd be able to get Ben close enough to Jacob to kill him.    All the time Ben (who has admitted never speaking to Jacob) was most likely also being manipulated by the MIB.   

Episode 6x07 / Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« on: March 18, 2010, 08:28:31 AM »
When Christian appeared to junkie Jack at the hospital, he set off the SMOKE detector.
Excellent thread.
Brilliant observation.  In that scene Christian was wearing a suit and glow-in-the-dark white shoes.  MIB or not MIB?  I think not MIB. 

I don't know if Christian appearing off island is the same as Christian appearing on Island.    All of the on island appearances support that he was the MIB manipulating to get Locke's body.    It could have been Jack's imagination or even the real Christian's ghost that appeared to Jack.     Kind of like how Claire in Kate's dream isn't in sync with Island Claire.   

Episode 6x07 / Re: So Was Christian Really The MIB?
« on: March 17, 2010, 05:10:12 PM »
The assumption is that he was...that every manifestation of a human being was smokie doing his thing. But there are some inconsistencies (kinda):

- Christian appeared in the cabin with Claire right after she disappeared. When asked about Aaron, Locke was told "He's where he is supposed to be" (or words to that effect). Claire seemed completely content with that knowledge. Now, however, MIB is saying that Claire was unhinged due to not knowing what happened to Aaron, and he told her the people in the temple had him to "give her something to hate". If that was really MIB as Christian in the cabin with Claire, why did he calm her so much and reassure her about Aaron being "where he's supposed to be", then later tell her that basically Aaron is NOT "where he's supposed to be" and fester her anger and hate?

- Christian in the cabin ended up telling Locke that he had to move the island in order to save it. Yet MIB keeps telling everyone that the island doesn't NEED saving or protecting. Why would he tell Locke what to do to save the island, and then do all he could to convince everyone NOT to bother trying to save the island?

- Christian appeared to Jack early in season one, and seemed to almost guide him to the cave and fresh water, as well as show him that his coffin was empty. Why would MIB want to aid and assist Jack in any way by posting as Christian?

- MIB keeps saying that he just wants to leave the island. Yet Christian appeared to Jack off the island, while in the lobby of the hospital, as well as to Michael on the boat. If MIB can leave the island to pose as Christian, then what's keeping him from leaving the island now?

- When Christian appeared to Locke after he fell down the well and told him to turn the "donkey wheel", he mentioned to locke to "tell my son hello" (can't remember if he said this on camera or off). Once Locke is off the island and ends up in a car crash, he is taken to Jack's hospital, which Locke considered fate. While trying to convince Jack to return to the island, and Jack is severely blowing him off, Locke says "Your father says hello". He then goes on to tell Jack that he said his name was Christian, etc, etc. If Christian was really MIB, why would he be giving instructions to Locke to help him get Jack back to the island? I'd think he'd want to keep Jack away from the island, especially seeing how Jacob wants him there.

- Christian told Locke he has to turn the donkey wheel in order to leave the island and get everyone to return--basically, to get all the candidates back on the island. But who has his men waiting there for Locke the split second he is "transported" back off the island? Widmore. It's as if "Christian" sent Locke deliberately back to Widmore. Yet as we saw in today's episode Widmore and MIB are on opposite sides. So did Widmore somehow "know" Locke would eventually appear there, or did "Christian" tip him off to Locke's arrival in order for Widmore and his men to protect Locke from dying (as Widmore said he was intent on doing)? MIB needed Locke to return dead, why would he send Locke into Widmore's waiting and protective arms?

- Why would MIB be helping Sun find Jin? In the episode "Namaste", Christian appeared to be helping and guiding Sun in her quest to find Jin. And as he's talking to her you can faintly see some dark "fog" enter the room in the background. If Christian was/is the MIB 1) why would he be helping Sun, and 2) why would smoke enter the room after he's already taken Christian's form?

MIB as Christian seemed to be doing almost everything in complete contradiction to what MIB as Locke is doing. So is it possible that Christian is someone/something else altogether?

I'm going with Christian = MIB.

Christian got Claire away from the others to turn her, then lied to her again and said the others took her baby.   

Christian guided Jack to the cave, probably hoping to gain his trust and turn him in time as well.

I wouldn't say Dream Christian is the same as smokey/MIB Christian..but maybe.

Christian wanted Locke - not Ben to turn the wheel, because MIB (Christian) wanted Locke to leave the island, get killed, then have his body shipped back so he could become him and use him to kill Jacob....the loophole.    This wasn't to save the island, that was a lie told to manipulate Locke.    MIB wanted all candidates to return, so he could turn them to his side and prove Jacob wrong.

Sun hasn't seen Jin in a long time.   If she's getting help, it hasn't been much.    If he was helping, he already knows where Jin is and could lead her to him.   Most likely just another manipulation that he will try to use to turn them as well.

In summary... I don't think their actions have been contradictory.    I don't think we'll be seeing Christian again, Smokey can't become him anymore.

Episode 6x07 / Re: So, does that mean Widmore is with Jacob?
« on: March 17, 2010, 04:59:53 PM »
Widmore sent his merceranreis to get Ben. Ben kicked him off the island for following in love with an off island woman (Penny's mom), all this being done under the name of Jacob.  Why would Widmore want Unlocke dead, he would want Jacob dead. Or hmmmmm doe she some how know that Jacob is dead?
Widmore wants to control the island he has the secrets of the island form Hanso's journal, as far as we have  been led to believe. Maybe wants both dead

I'm starting to think it's the MIB against everybody.     I think Widmore thinks he's working for Jacob, but in reality he's just working for himself trying to get the Island power for himself.     Just like Ben was working for Jacob, but in reality, he had never heard one word from him and really wanted to be powerful.     Ben would call himself on Jacob's side, so would widmore, but they are more likely all being manuplated by Smokey in some way or the other.    Not even Richard seemed to talk to Jacob that much.    Smokey appears, pretends he's a good guy, then turns into the smoke monster and plays the bad guy.    Last night when Locke told the people that the smoke monster came and killed everyone in the temple, he was acting like he saved everybody from the smoke.    He's ok with saywer knowing the truth, but he wants to play both sides with most people.   

Episode 6x06 / Re: Claire and UnLocke three years?
« on: March 10, 2010, 05:45:19 PM »
But Claire was with MIB/Christian right away after she died/was claimed.  She didn't refer to him in the cabin as "my father"; all she said to Locke was "I'm with him."  So she maybe able to perceive that it wasn't really her father and that this isn't really Locke but she knows it's the same entity who has been "her friend" for the past 3 years.

That's my take on it.   Clearly Claire knew that Lock was Smokey when he flew over the pit she was in.     She was lured off by Christain-smokey, and then later she started hanging with Locke-smokey.   

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