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Messages - cookieshoes

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Whatever you say dude.   :D

If you can't understand the points I'm making, I'm not gonna dumb them down for you. You're running yourself in circles about who knows what. I'm talking about things that are allllll over the net, felt by many many fans.  You're obviously emotional about the show, and are happy with the way it ended, so don't let me ruin it for you.  But, after you come down from your "truth fighter" commando high, you should read the lunacy in some of your posts on here sometime.  For a show that ended with some wonderful unanswered mysteries, and a lot of sloppy misfires, you conveniently have figured them all out and fit them all together perfectly. It certainly helps that you're apparently the only one around here allowed to use the phrase "I think...." and then follow it up with your own theories that you insist are facts about the show.  Everyone else is "dense" and doesn't "get it" with their "gripes".  It's "unfair" to hold the writers to certain expectations. Okaaaay.

Keep on fighting the good fight, soldier! It must be lonely up there on the top having to explain your wisdom to the rest of us all the time.

P.S. It was just a tv show. You realize that, right?

Sorry to say it bud, but it appears we DO know more than you. You want a scene of backstory on the Egyptians? Where would you have put it without devoting a whole Ep to it? It doesn't fit with our story.

"Walt, Michael, Eko, Libby in the asylum, Paulo and Nikki, the whispers, Eloise, Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, Dr Chang, Dharma, the NUMBERS." Aside from Paulo and Nikki, (Which is the episode referred to as why they gave themselves an end date and 16 episode seasons) The fact that you dont understand why this stuff either became less important over time, (Walt +Eko) or was important makes me doubt we were watching the same show. You thought Michael was unimportant? Hardly. He was a person that acted in his own self interests, and was therefore damned to be stuck on the island  until he could redeem himself. Libby in the asylum is a tiny detail of the story which would have been told had she not gotten clipped for a DUI. The whispers were explained directly and everyone hated it. Eloise used to be an Other and killed her own son. After leaving the island she assisted people wanting to get back. In the ALT she gained realization soon after her entrance into it, and did not want to move on so she could have a life with her son she squandered.  Daniel (Tried) helping all of us understand some of the physics behind the timetravel of the show. Ultra important. Charlotte was Daniel's love interest. That's seemingly what Lost was all about. Miles Had great purpose, with his father issues AND his power to hear the thoughts of the dead. Dr. Chang was Miles' father needed for the Father issues that were an underlying theme to the show. Dharma showed the lengths Jacob would allow people to go to before he could no longer allow their presence on the island. Also Dharma were the ones who made possible the conditions giving Desmond his gift. Without the Losties time traveling to them, that all never would have happened. As for the numbers, I can understand why some people are upset with the way they handled them. As a writer I can see the probability that they knew what the numbers would be used for, but could not tell us enough about the circumstances for us to understand the importance of them. So they conveyed the dire importance of them and then left us to take them where we did.  Some people can't get that and that's fine. I don't hold a grudge on that.

So there you go. These are not Theories. These are facts about the same show you watched. If you have problems with it that's fine, but don't start numerating lists like that which are so obviously forced you really only have one valid gripe in there.

Again, more of the same.  ;D

Don't get upset, dude. It's not my fault that all you've got are your own interpretations, and that you want them so badly to be "the truth". It's a tv show, not a competition.  Besides, 99% of your theories are the common knowledge in the show that was brought up here and elsewhere, so it's bizarre that you claim some kind of ownership of them. The only "forcing" here is when people write that their theory/opinion is better than someone else's. 

You confuse the concept of people discussing the errors in the show with some notion of people "not getting it" or not really having been fans of the show.  What's worse is that you continue to the point that apparently no one "got it" as good as you did.  I got the show just fine. It didn't keep to it's own standard of storytelling and style with the way they handled Seasons 5/6 and the finale.

Again, the show wasn't obligated to answer every single moment, or spend time explaining things that in the end didn't matter. No one is asking for that. But therein lies the task of good storytelling.  It was up to them to keep us going, answers or not, and to keep us hooked with those things that in the end, DID matter. In many ways they botched that. We were all invested in this show until the very end, and were in awe of it for so long. Only for them to give us rushed answers, flat revelations, and a "and they all went to the big bright light and lived happily ever after" cliche finale.  Was it emotionally pulling? Did it technically resolve characters? Yes to both questions. We had been with the writers/producers/characters for so long, we couldn't possibly turn back. So, they could've resolved the show an infinite number of ways, and I promise you that we would still have been moved. They could've just as easily used the "St Elsewhere" ending of the show all being in someone's head and there would still be an overwhelming number of people who would've said that they loved it and that it all made perfect sense. Same goes for how we can look back at the characters that in the end did/didn't matter. They could've dumped half of the cast and shifted around the necessary elements between the people that they had left. In fact, that's exactly what they ended up doing.

They did an overwhelming number of things well for a tv show. But within that appeal was hours upon hours of plot elements, and style elements as well. And with Season 5 and Season 6 that quality dropped significantly. Doesn't matter what the back story of the production of the show was. I don't really care about the writer's strike or the sidegames that filled in the missing holes here and there. They had a task of effectively getting from Point A to Point Z, hitting all the letters along the way. Some would remain mysteries, and some would be explained in detail. They got 3/4 the way through the alphabet, and then the writers ran out of time.  So, after they had so painstakingly embellished and elaborated on so many things, they dumped a good quarter of the plot in favor of creating a new storyline that started and resolved within 3 episodes.  Sayid with Shannon? Gimme a break. They may as well have started a new plot line where he started banging Kate midway through the 5th season and it still would've "made sense" in the end, what with how they explained and resolved other things.  Ben killing Jacob still made him good enough for afterlife redemption, but Michael sacrificing himself for the people on the helicopter wasn't good enough to cancel out his own bad deeds?  Without Michael, the candidates would never have survived and would've died on the freighter. Walt appearing as a whisper? And so on and so forth.

Everyone has their theories and revisionism on how these things, and the many other holes, now fit together. But it sounds like most people are taking the path of least resistance and just giving the writers a free pass on the sloppy job, since they did such a good job with the emotional impact. That's great, that's what this show was about. It's all about taking from it what you want. But there is no quick fix, grand scheme to resolve the inaccuracies, that we're all going to agree on, no matter how much anyone wants there to be. 

3 there an echo in here? That's the very point I was making.

I think the irony is that the real frustrated types around here are those who keep posting about how much it bothers them that some of us just "won't accept" that the answers in the finale were perfect, and that we should stop banging our heads....just as those people start giving us all of their "perfect" theorys.

Analyzing is one thing. Repeatedly banging your head against the wall about things that A: Didn't matter to the story, or B: Have already be answered, maybe not as concrete as you like, is another.

See, more of the same.

Just because you've decided to write up countless answers that you've made up for yourself, and are fine with them, doesn't mean anything. That's fan-fiction.

Because, no, we didn't need a 3 hour episode on the Egyptians. As I've read elsewhere, we didn't need a scene showing them reading over blueprints for the statue, or actually carving in all of the writing on the temple walls.  But funny that they did all of that extensive pushing of hieroglyphics, buildings, statues, symbolism, names, characters for six years.  And they gave us not one single scene giving any background on any of the egyptians elements of the show. But, thankfully they gave us Paulo and Nikki, right?  THAT part of the story just had to be told, apparently.

Because it is that very perception that certain things "didn't matter to the story", that is the problem.  Because with that kind of logic, where exactly does the pecking-order end? Why have a show at all?  Why not just start with the crash and cut right to the part where Jack dies protecting the island and watches his friends fly away?

You know what else didn't really matter to the story in the end?  For starters....Walt, Michael, Eko, Libby in the asylum, Paulo and Nikki, the whispers, Eloise, Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, Dr Chang, Dharma, the NUMBERS.  While we're at it, why did the writers bother introducing Jacob and MiB's fake mom at all then?  That was history that the writers could've played numerous ways, and ignored just as they did the Egyptians. They didn't even introduce the idea that Jacob and the MiB even had a mother until what....3 episodes before the finale?  Did we really need to see Jacob and the MiB play out that miserable episode, with the hack explanation of the donkey wheel, or the cave of light and the smoke monster shooting out?  Watch it again. We didn't, did we?  It didn't really matter to the story in the end.  In fact, we probably would've all been better off if they had kept ignoring it and only brought in the cave of light at the very end of the finale, with Desmond and Jack going into it.  At least we would've been spared by only having to see that terrible cgi job only once.

It's all perspective. It's just that some of you are more inclined to pretend like you actualy know more than those of us who were watching the show with you.

i literally can't read anymore bad reviews by angry fans.

Then don't read them. Your happiness with the finale is no better/worse than those of us who thought it had some annoying problems.

I think the finale (and Season 6) was far from perfect. If you think it was perfect, power to you.
Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the hell out of it, or that I don't like the show anymore.

But what gets me is the sudden shift in character of so many of the people who spent the last 6 years enjoying the show like I did. Yet now so many of them are throwing tantrums because we're still discussing a show that only just happened four days ago. This show was ALL ABOUT analyzing every last detail of every scene. This site, and many others like it, wouldn't have existed if the show didn't encourage discussion and digging deeper.  So, for anyone to now try and say "That's it, the show's over, stop analyzing!", and accusing people of being angry because they didn't get the same experience out of the finale as you did, is about as antithetical to the spirit of Lost as you can get. 

Episode 6x16 / Re: Nadia
« on: May 25, 2010, 06:45:46 PM »
This wasn't the only inconsistency in the finale (or Season 6), but imo I think it was definitely one of the biggest.

It was the writers trying to fool the larger audience into thinking that the entire 6 seasons mattered, when they didn't. Really, only seasons 5 and 6 mattered, what with the way they junked most all of the early plot lines in favor of Jacob.  So, when the finale came, they picked and choosed which of the old characters and plot lines they would resolve, and which ones they'd leave on the cutting room floor.  As a consequence, they were heavy-handed with pretty much everything they revealed, including the delivering of the "Adam and Eve" explanation, complete with the clip from the 1st season.  Shannon and Boone reappearing was just another stab at trying to make viewers think that the writers knew what they were doing all along, even though we know that they didn't.  Why not bring back Paulo and Nikki while they're at it?

The actor who played Mr Eko was apparently offered a big sum to make an appearance in the finale. According to the story out there right now, he asked for 5 times the amount from the producers and was turned down. So, what if he had accepted their initial offer? My guess is that he would've shown up as a quick-fix cameo, nothing more. 

Episode 6x16 / Re: Questions?
« on: May 25, 2010, 03:57:23 PM »

The numbers were assigned to each potential candidate. When Jacob learned that a plane would crash on the island he started watching the plane's inhabitants. He selected from that group, 42 potential candidates and went around touching them to signify they were candidates. The connection between the numbers being on the hatch, and Hurley playing the numbers, and the guy muttering the numbers over the airwaves and whatnot, that is all part of the same fateful Story. Dude hired by Dharma to be the first person to push the button. He does it for a very long time. Goes a bit insane. Makes it to the radio tower to broadcast the numbers as that is now all he knows. Heard by Hurley's guy in Santa Rosa. Plays them in the lottery. If they would have told us that each of the survivors was given a number and then told us that one would be selected to replace the Protector of the island in the first season, those numbers would have fit very well together and we would go on wondering who every number belonged to. They just played the suspense backwards for us, which made us create all this extra wonder behind the numbers.

All of your answers above are good theories, but they're still just your theories.  Plenty of people won't agree with them, because the show never explained them. And the explanations they did give oftentimes avoided the significance we were led to believe they had. Not in the form of being clever, but because we know the writers didn't know what they were doing at times, and that they had some obstacles in making the show.  So, sure, you can say "the actor who played Walt got too old".  That's precisely the point. You know this because it's just a tv show. And tv shows are filled with actors who themselves have lives and careers. When the actor who played Eko wanted to leave, it had to be written off bizarrely. And the writers had no idea what to do with Walt, so when he got too old they had to fit him in as best they could, which left inconsistencies and errors. But yet they couldn't avoid the "whispers" explanation undermining Walt's character in the end. He was not dead, yet he appeared as a whisper. It doesn't matter what one thinks the reason for this is. The writers made a point of saying that the whispers were people who died on the island. They connected this to Michael and all sorts of references to those who died on-island. That was the answer. Yet on the show they had Walt, who didn't connect with that. What about Libby and Ana-Lucia dying on the island? They were allowed to "move on", but Michael wasn't?  Sure, Michael killed them both on island. But he saved all of the rest of the people on the copter by doing his sacrifice play, isn't that worth his redemption? I thought Christian said he could "go now"? Who was that? I thought the MiB couldn't leave the island? How did he get on the freighter to appear as Christian?

And on and on and on....

I may happen to like your answers, and I've thought the same as you on about pretty much all of them. However, that's because we've decided to view those topics that way, especially in light of what we know of the background of the show. Doesn't make the "swindle" here any different, especially for the viewer who attempts to take the show for it's storytelling merits alone. The point about Hanso being resolved in the side game is a proof of this.  For anyone who didn't play the side game, they would still be wondering about Hanso and what the big deal was early on. And there are many many other areas like this. Sure, we may know why the writers had to throw certain characters and details overboard when they did, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still questions that were left unanswered due to botched storytelling. So, given what we know, the producers don't get to tell people like us "Hey, we left a bunch of things unanswered on purpose, because it's the magic of storytelling!".  The reality is that they were faced with real problems in the logistics of making the show, and didn't have the ability to resolve things that they had kept us on the hook with. So, they copped-out by changing to a new hook and ditching plotlines altogether.

In particular, using your answer above about the numbers...

We know that the writers had no idea what they would use the numbers for when the show started. Which is why the resulting usage of those numbers is so messy, and they eventually downplayed the premise entirely as the show entered the 5th season, as evidenced by the arrival of Jacob's character into the mix.  The numbers were now explained as being Jacob's tracking system for his candidates, yet never in the show did it imply that Jacob could time travel. He was living his own "what happened, happened" life on the island, even as protector. And as the protector, he didn't age. It was made clear that his life was linear. He was born, protected the island, and died. Just as his mother did, and just how Jack did. Yet, Jacob visited Kate when she was a child. Besides the obvious, "How did Jacob leave the island?", in Season 6 Jacob explains that he chose the candidates because they were "flawed". How was this little girl Kate already "flawed"?  How exactly did he have the premonition to choose that way?  We all know that they all lived "linear" lives, so how was he able to see into the future and know that Kate's life would be flawed? And if Jacob was the one causing Kate's life to end up that way, doesn't that undermine the value of the characters if all he's essentially doing is just wrecking the lives of all of these people just to find the one replacement candidate?

All of these questions.....It becomes one enormous mess, which most of us stopped caring about as soon as we got used to what the writers started revealing. And, ultimately, the writers always had the ability to tell us "Hey, we can do what we want, because it's our story to write",  and that's it, end of argument.  That's the "get out of jail free" card that the writers always had.  Doesn't change that they ignored huge questions and resorted to a series of watered-down cop-outs and inconsistencies to explain things when the time came that they finally had to deliver on the promised "All will be answered!" promos.  Because if you're going to make the end of the series "they all go to heaven", spend six years doing it, and then tell us that most of the things that we were shown along the way had no meaning, why should we care about the journey in the first place?

Episode 6x16 / Re: Questions?
« on: May 25, 2010, 01:08:33 PM »
Every time I ask someone for specifics on questions they still have on the show I am left with another explaination about how the show left questions unanswered.

Here are some of mine: Walt (how was he communicating to Michael in the Hatch and then appearing as a whisper when he wasn't dead), the numbers (lottery, candidate numbers, hatch numbers - now it's all just a coincidence? That's a cop out. Apparently if Jacob can control all that, why couldn't he just send one perfect candidate over to take his place?), Egyptians (why is it just THEIR writing everywhere? And what about the timeline errors with them appearing before Jacob/MiB?), Eloise (how was she skipping through time advising Desmond in the ring shop?), Why Juliet got "marked" and the point of that, why Jack's tattoo made him stand apart from others, Jack seeing Christian off-island, Kate having nightmares of Claire, why was Penny looking for electromagnetic occurrences with her station, Jacob's cabin moving around (why was he living in the statue then?), why the hell Shannon was supposed to matter all of a sudden to Sayid in the finale as opposed to Nadia, the Dharma food drops, Hanso, the Others in jungle outfits, why the wheel dumped in Tunisia, the Temple, what happened to Ben to bring him back to life (why could he be brought back but no one else could?), etc. etc. etc.

The problem is that any answer that any viewer can give to the above will only be their opinion. These were all huge moments/people in the show that were bombshells when they appeared, and which the writers started ignoring, starting during the 4th season. So, by Season 5 we started seeing new questions arise that we had never cared about before (Jacob, anyone?), most of which were all sloppily connected to the hasty answers given in Season 6. So, we the viewer were left with 4 seasons worth of intrigue and obsession over details, and then given 2 seasons of quick and underplayed one-liners to explain a handful of questions that would give the appearance of tying up the "loose ends".

So, to try and state now that there aren't any questions that didn't get answered, or which apparently aren't important anymore is ridiculous.  This is how the writers/producers got us all hooked, by giving us questions and an obsession with details. They kept going on and on and on about the significance of things, and then it all came to a halt. They built a show around the intrigue and the mystery and the coincidences. They explained a TON of things, but left even more things unexplained, only to give us "don't worry about all those questions" and a line of logic that they had invented in Season 5 when they brought in Jacob.    

No, they didn't have to answer everything. It would've completely ruined the show for a lot of people if they did.  Personally, I'm glad that they didn't, to a degree. But that doesn't mean that we should be expected to ignore the inconsistencies between the things that they didn't answer and the things they did (i.e. timeline errors, character oddities, significance/insignificance of things).

I thought the Senet game was a hint that Mother was from an ancient Egyptian group that crashed there long before the Roman group...

See, that's what I had initially thought, but that creates some continuity errors then.  Because, if the mother was part of the Egyptians, and she was the only one left by the time Jacob/MiB's real mother washed ashore....then how could her people have been the ones who made the drawings of the smoke monster and the vent for him in the underground, as well as created the drain to release him?  Because if there weren't any Egyptians left by the time of Jacob/MiB arriving on the island, then there wouldn't have been any Egyptians to have been around after the MiB had turned into the smoke monster.

Of course, throw some island moving and some time travel in there and voila!  Problem solved!  ;D

Cookieshoes...I think you will likely only get the last 2

We'll see.  Given the hasty way that they've gone about answering pretty much every other big secret on the show this season, I'd say that they could manage answering all of the questions I've asked in about 12 minutes. ;D

I think that the Egyptians connection is a must, though. Out of all of the unanswered questions and such, their connection to the island has been an unanswered theme the longest, from the hatch to the temple, and as recent as Jacob/MiB's fake mother and the Senet game. Likewise with Widmore/Penny/Eloise's story.  Sure, we may never get full and developed answers on the "whys" of Hurley/Miles/Walt. But for them, I think that they'd be just as similarly explained as any number of other "revelations" of late: quick and without much fanfare.

I'm predicting that the finale will comprise of the following, which are pretty much the only questions I've got left:

- Brief history of the Egyptians involvement with the island (too many things about them still unanswered)
- Charles' and Eloise's backgrounds, and their falling out
- How Eloise left the island, how she knew all about the time travel and island-tracking
- Penny's mystery mother, and what Penny knew about the island
- Christian Shephard: What did he really have to do with anything?
- Walt: What did he really have to do with anything?
- Why Desmond, Hurley, and Miles have the powers that they do
- Resolution of the ATL
- The "end" of the conflict between MiB and the Losties currently on the island

Episode 6x15 / Re: What happened to Claire Bear?
« on: May 19, 2010, 06:55:49 PM »
I figure that Claire is now gone for good. Being left behind once was bad, but now twice?

I dunno. Something drastic. I see her making her own uprising and taking out a couple of the Losties as payback.
Also, her role of wanting to leave the island makes her the anti-Jack, who now wants to stay.
Maybe she takes her brother out in the finale? A la Jacob/MiB style?

Episode 6x15 / Re: As a father, I'm a little offended!
« on: May 19, 2010, 06:10:34 PM »

I guess I just found that explanation a little weak in light of everything else they've told us.

Sure, but at this point, that's par for the course. Pretty much ALL of the explanations this season have been weak, imo.  And with the chances that the writers have had to hit a home run with some of the answers we've gotten, they've actually managed to do the opposite, killing the impact by either underwhelming the viewer (Michael's explanation of the whispers, Jacob around the campfire, the cave of light), or overplaying the moment by doing something that completely breaks with the show's presentation style (doing the "replay" of the scene from Season 1 when we learn who Adam and Eve are). 

Episode 6x15 / Re: As a father, I'm a little offended!
« on: May 19, 2010, 03:25:00 PM »
It's funny you mention this, because even though I know you're joking, the thought only recently came to mind about how potentially "unfair" the show has been to women.  A critic recently wrote a really good article on how the producers have taken the same sort of "women are powerless and weak" slant that so many other shows/books/movies/religions do when it comes to women. They're never the hero, instead they're the ones who suffer most and who oftentimes cause many of the problems in the story in the first place, while not ever having the ability to do anything about it. At the very least, their roles and storylines are always a level or two below the men in the plot, who at least have the ability to try and change things that are out of their control.

Kate, Juliet, Sun, Eloise, Rousseau, Claire, Claire's mom, Jack's mom, Kate's mom, Miles' mom, Shannon, Rose, Penny, Charlotte, Nadia, Ana Lucia, Libby, Ben's mom, Jack's ex-wife, Locke's fiance, Jacob/MiB's real mother...all of whom have been portrayed as completely helpless in one way or another while the relative men in their lives ruin things for them.  

Who says Women's lib is dead?  :D

Episode 6x15 / Re: Jack will fix Locke in ATL....
« on: May 19, 2010, 02:23:11 PM »

I don't think so.  Jack's enemy on the island isn't Locke, it's MIB/Smokey who just happens to look like Locke.  Locke is dead and gone.  No need for him to die in the ATL.

Maybe that's the point. By Jack fixing Locke and giving him the ability to walk again, Locke is freed from his reliance on the wheelchair, and therefore would never have an allegiance to the island for "fixing him", even if he ended up there somehow in the ATL.  So, perhaps his survival and ability to walk again in the ATL prevents him from ever being able to be used by the MiB.

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