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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x16 => Topic started by: moyboy on May 14, 2009, 09:39:53 PM

Title: he "watched them die"
Post by: moyboy on May 14, 2009, 09:39:53 PM
last episode, Richard told Sun that he knew the Losties back in 1977 because he "watched them die".

but... he didn't? he wasn't there when the nuke was detonated, if thats what he was referring to.
or if he was referring to a past that was changed, what was he speaking of?
ben gassing them with the other dharma people, but that timeline changed?
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: lostlady on May 14, 2009, 09:45:51 PM
No, he didn't watch them die and if this blast brings them to 2007 then Richard never watched them die and so lied for some reason to Sun.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: nomteticus on May 14, 2009, 09:52:03 PM
If he was talking about the Purge, he did watch Dharma die. Hurley didn't ring a bell, but he should of remembered Jack and Kate...
So
a) he's lying
b) he doesn't remember them and thinks the purge killed them
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: vickilynn on May 14, 2009, 09:56:45 PM
Did the blast not happen before in the loop? Or did the blast happen before and Richard just assumed they died because "everyone" died around him?
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: lostlady on May 14, 2009, 10:00:36 PM
Before the Losties came there was an incident of some sort that may have killed some people. However, the majority of DI died during the purge which came much later.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: vickilynn on May 14, 2009, 10:04:10 PM
So, Juliet's blast could not have been the "incident" spoken of previously (on Lost)?
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: lostlady on May 14, 2009, 10:07:06 PM
It depends. The blast may have always happened like that if you believe 'what happened, happened' or if you believe that there are variables and the future can be changed by Jack & co then perhaps this is a new type of incident.  ???
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: CaseyMac on May 14, 2009, 10:20:19 PM
Where was Richard Alpert for the shoot-out at the Swan corral?

Since we don't know the answer to that question, I think it's premature to say that he lied. Remember, the Swan was "deep in Hostile territory" so he may have had a vantage point.

Also, we don't know what happened when Juliet sets off the nuke. All we saw was "Fade to white...LOST...roll credits."
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: toadsage on May 14, 2009, 10:21:13 PM
we dont know that he lied. they could still die, maybe we just havent seen it happen yet. im stil kind of on ritchies side here, hes been kind of a neutral guy so far. he hasnt done anything overtly bad or good that we have seen so far
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: rhythm on May 14, 2009, 10:34:30 PM
Or, Richard could quite simply have thought they died because he did see an explosion....
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: BobBX542 on May 15, 2009, 12:50:37 PM
I think we need to take into account that some of our assumptions might be wrong. Like the bomb changing things, for example. Let's say that the bomb did go off and the future was altered. Who's to say that what Daniel said about HOW the future would change is right?? Maybe when Richard said he watched them die, it was a few years after the incident, and it was something else completely.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: toadsage on May 15, 2009, 12:58:08 PM
I think we need to take into account that some of our assumptions might be wrong. Like the bomb changing things, for example. Let's say that the bomb did go off and the future was altered. Who's to say that what Daniel said about HOW the future would change is right?? Maybe when Richard said he watched them die, it was a few years after the incident, and it was something else completely.

BOBS DA MAN!!!!
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: bastor on May 15, 2009, 01:11:05 PM
I think the deaths haven't happened yet....lets face it everything seems to be going the way it went normally (the hand incident, the fact that the hatch guy (ughm....i always forget his name....the guy who is in the shaft before Des) is still alive...I am laying this out on the table-there was no real purge...the Dhrama Intiative evacuated the whole island fast, left the dude in the hatch and went off without touching the corpses of the people who died form the big explosion. Then the others/hostiles just took over their camp and started using it and got all the bodies of the dead dudes (from the shootings and explosion) in a big ditch....Ben was just trying to sound like he is actually capable of something which is sort of his phobia (every time he is helpless he turns into a weird pissed off useless mess so he is trying to show that he is scarya nd knows everything)
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: toadsage on May 15, 2009, 01:18:22 PM
I think the deaths haven't happened yet....lets face it everything seems to be going the way it went normally (the hand incident, the fact that the hatch guy (ughm....i always forget his name....the guy who is in the shaft before Des) is still alive...I am laying this out on the table-there was no real purge...the Dhrama Intiative evacuated the whole island fast, left the dude in the hatch and went off without touching the corpses of the people who died form the big explosion. Then the others/hostiles just took over their camp and started using it and got all the bodies of the dead dudes (from the shootings and explosion) in a big ditch....Ben was just trying to sound like he is actually capable of something which is sort of his phobia (every time he is helpless he turns into a weird pissed off useless mess so he is trying to show that he is scarya nd knows everything)

but we say ben kill his dad with the gas, and all the dead bodies after the purge. i dont think that we'd be lied to with a flashback.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: bastor on May 15, 2009, 01:22:02 PM
Yeah...the flashback....good point....xD But anyway the fact remains that things seem to be happening exactly as they should to lead to the 815 crash and i don't think Richard would just lie to Sun about watching them die...I mean sure lie that he could find a way to bring them back-ok but about them actually dying-no point in that lie...I mean let's see it form a different angle-How many times has Richard told a lie?
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: nomteticus on May 15, 2009, 01:43:34 PM
Yeah, maybe something changed, and they die later. Since they butchered Dharma, maybe they join the Others for a while in season 6. Do we know for sure that they will flash back to 2007?
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: lostlady on May 15, 2009, 01:50:01 PM
Yeah, maybe something changed, and they die later. Since they butchered Dharma, maybe they join the Others for a while in season 6. Do we know for sure that they will flash back to 2007?

No we don't know they flash to 2007. It's assumed they will since Jacob whispered 'they're coming'. Of course Jacob may have been referring to another group coming--who knows. The Losties may not flash to 2007 and spend more time in 1977. I assume (and never assume!) that eventually they will flash forward to present time so that Sun and Jin will be together again but that could be on the last episode!

Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: BobBX542 on May 18, 2009, 11:21:06 AM
Okay, I'm going to just come out and say it, I didn't hear Jacob say "They're coming". I did hear him say "coming" twice, but not "they're coming". If anyone can tell me how they know for sure what he said, I'd appreciate it. I'm sure it's possible that I got an audio burp or something, but twice in a row, at the exact same moment that a character says something??
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: fulcigento on May 18, 2009, 11:31:12 AM
Darlton said that the time traveling is over.  It's pretty safe to assume the Losties flashed back to '07 at the end of the finale.  Then again, this is Lost. 
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: vickilynn on May 18, 2009, 11:37:25 AM
Okay, I'm going to just come out and say it, I didn't hear Jacob say "They're coming". I did hear him say "coming" twice, but not "they're coming". If anyone can tell me how they know for sure what he said, I'd appreciate it. I'm sure it's possible that I got an audio burp or something, but twice in a row, at the exact same moment that a character says something??

I've watched the episode twice now, and I swear he said "They're coming."

I don't have closed caption...which I guess is what you really need to confirm.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: devenezy on May 18, 2009, 12:44:28 PM
Okay, I'm going to just come out and say it, I didn't hear Jacob say "They're coming". I did hear him say "coming" twice, but not "they're coming". If anyone can tell me how they know for sure what he said, I'd appreciate it. I'm sure it's possible that I got an audio burp or something, but twice in a row, at the exact same moment that a character says something??

I've watched the episode twice now, and I swear he said "They're coming."

I don't have closed caption...which I guess is what you really need to confirm.

To answer your question, Jacob does in fact say "They're coming" both times.

ABC.com's Full Episode Player has the option to turn closed captions on. Just start playing the video and then click on "Settings" on the top right-hand side of the window. You might have to close your browser and restart the video for them to appear.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 18, 2009, 12:57:10 PM
I agree with bastor that Richard wouldn't lie to Sun about that.  Unless that wasn't really Richard.

There are theories floating around that Richard is inside appearing as Jacob, so RIchard is the the one who was stabbed and then rolled into the Fire.  Perhaps the Richard we see talking to Sun is Jacob appearing as Richard. Or not. hehe.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: Wishbone on May 18, 2009, 02:37:46 PM
I've always found Richard a confusing character. He has always seemed good and reasonable - in comparison to everyone else - but he hasn't always been good, remember Juliettes husband. I'm not sure he would openly lie but I don't think he saw them die either. If Jacob is white and the other guy is black then Richard is grey to me - I can't work out what side he would be on
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: BobBX542 on May 18, 2009, 04:03:50 PM
Okay, I'm going to just come out and say it, I didn't hear Jacob say "They're coming". I did hear him say "coming" twice, but not "they're coming". If anyone can tell me how they know for sure what he said, I'd appreciate it. I'm sure it's possible that I got an audio burp or something, but twice in a row, at the exact same moment that a character says something??

I've watched the episode twice now, and I swear he said "They're coming."

I don't have closed caption...which I guess is what you really need to confirm.

To answer your question, Jacob does in fact say "They're coming" both times.

ABC.com's Full Episode Player has the option to turn closed captions on. Just start playing the video and then click on "Settings" on the top right-hand side of the window. You might have to close your browser and restart the video for them to appear.

Okay, that's all I needed. I believed it, but didn't hear it with my own ears, so I had to question it.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: SawyerLove on May 18, 2009, 05:30:49 PM
So... You're Jack. The doubting Thomas.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: BobBX542 on May 19, 2009, 01:23:37 PM
So... You're Jack. The doubting Thomas.

But I turned around A LOT FASTER than he did.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: Adriana on May 20, 2009, 01:48:29 AM
I've always found Richard a confusing character. He has always seemed good and reasonable - in comparison to everyone else - but he hasn't always been good, remember Juliettes husband. I'm not sure he would openly lie but I don't think he saw them die either. If Jacob is white and the other guy is black then Richard is grey to me - I can't work out what side he would be on

This is my thinking on Richard, too.  I've been skeptical of his "goodness" since he angrily picked up the pieces that little John Locke didn't correctly identify and made John's mother mad at him.  Mean Richard! Poor John!

But -- he always seems to be good when he needs to be. So ... definitely gray for me too.

I'm thinking that the SERIES finale (God forbid) involves a big Richard-centric plot twist.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: Maxor127 on May 20, 2009, 01:57:25 AM
Richard could've just been hiding in the jungle watching and laughing at the Dharma people shooting each other, saw the explosion and flash and Jack and them may have disappeared and he assumed they were vaporized in the blast maybe.
Title: Re: he "watched them die"
Post by: jamesl on May 20, 2009, 02:33:03 AM
I thought "They're coming" obviously referred to the flight 316's who just arrived on the beach and introduced themselves to Richard

of course, with LOST, the obvious is usually incorrect