Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x16 => Topic started by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:06:09 PM

Title: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:06:09 PM
So... the opening scene. Jacob catches a fish. That fish was a herring. And it was RED! Just thought I'd share that lol.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Austruck on May 14, 2009, 12:08:46 PM
Okay, that's pretty funny.

Snaps to you for that one.   ;D ;D
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: BobBX542 on May 14, 2009, 12:09:08 PM
You know, that might be a bigger clue than you think Griz. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie or play called "Ten little indians" but there is a scene that mentions a character getting eaten by a red herring, and that character is the one behind all of the murders. Hmmmmmmm
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: ericd543 on May 14, 2009, 12:12:07 PM
Finally a theory that I can get behind.  :D

Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau) Esau... is also called "Edom", which means red. Genesis relates this directly to his selling his birthright for some "red lentil stew" (Gen. 25:30), and the book also makes a point of mentioning that he was red when he emerged from the womb (Gen 25:25). Nevertheless, this may be an example of retroactive nomenclature, as the land which was supposedly inhabited by his descendants, Edom, contains a great abundance of red rock.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:14:25 PM
Nice! So it was probably red for a reason. More clues that it is in fact Jacob and Esau?
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:15:33 PM
Oh by the way, I can't take credit for this on my own. A friend pointed it out to me. And he might be here soon lol...
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 12:23:56 PM
here i am!
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:26:53 PM
Yes there he is. Welcome buddy. I finally convinced you haha.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: opgelost on May 14, 2009, 12:33:14 PM
Welcome.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 12:34:55 PM
yes i am now a member of the site I have been telling people about for YEARS! It all started with my insatiable need to view the investigations and read squad car numbers. Now, Ive seen Jacob, I've seen the statue, and I finally feel the need to post. This show rocks and I look forward to discussing and dissecting it further than it need be.
Bring it on.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: opgelost on May 14, 2009, 12:38:12 PM
So, you don't need the 7 months to read all the posts.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:42:09 PM
Forget it. I didn't. I just read over the season 5 stuff.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: vickilynn on May 14, 2009, 12:46:49 PM
grizn0, you're a genius!  ;)
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 12:50:48 PM
grizn0, you're a genius!  ;)
Haha thank you vickilynn. But again, I can't take credit for this.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Jas0n on May 14, 2009, 12:57:49 PM
very funny, but if i hear the name esau one more time im going to explode.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: opgelost on May 14, 2009, 12:59:09 PM
very funny, but if i hear the name esau one more time im going to explode.

Thank you !
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: AstroJones on May 14, 2009, 01:03:25 PM
I prefer to refer to him as "Loophole John"
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Jas0n on May 14, 2009, 01:04:57 PM
I prefer to refer to him as "Loophole John"


I would go with that, I would even go with Mr. Black for now, until we get an official name.

Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 01:05:26 PM
Love it or hate it, we are going to be hearing Esau, smokey, blackshirt, loophole john and other names being brandied about for the next 7 months! Esau will most likely be the most commonly used name, so let's all get used to it.

Esau 4 Prez
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Des on May 14, 2009, 01:13:01 PM
Why the flip are we calling him Esau though? Just because of the name Jacob? Or is there something more that I'm missing. That is WAYYY too obvious for Lost. I think they might pull symbolism from the Jacob/Esau biblical account, but for it to actually BE that, nooo.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 01:14:51 PM
Like I said elsewhere. We gotta call him something. Mr. Black-shirt isn't that apealling to me. If we're wrong then we're wrong. Not a big deal. People called the statue the statue of Anubis forever too. That was wrong.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 01:15:27 PM
I doubt that his name will be Esau, I just need to call him something and it seems to upset a few people here so that's cool too. What's in a name really? Would a Henry Gale by any other name be just as sweet?
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Des on May 14, 2009, 01:19:05 PM
I doubt that his name will be Esau, I just need to call him something and it seems to upset a few people here so that's cool too. What's in a name really? Would a Henry Gale by any other name be just as sweet?

That is true. We need a name to refer to the man who has an unknown name so that we all know who we're talking about. I just didn't understand WHY Esau was chosen, other then the name Jacob. But, whatever works, I suppose.

You know what irked me even more? "Benry"
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 01:23:18 PM
I doubt that his name will be Esau, I just need to call him something and it seems to upset a few people here so that's cool too. What's in a name really? Would a Henry Gale by any other name be just as sweet?

That is true. We need a name to refer to the man who has an unknown name so that we all know who we're talking about. I just didn't understand WHY Esau was chosen, other then the name Jacob. But, whatever works, I suppose.

You know what irked me even more? "Benry"
The only reason Esau was chosen was because of the biblical story of Isaac's (son of Abraham) sons Jacob and Esau. The conditions of the story closely reflect what we've seen between these two. I think we can safely assume that Mr. Blackshirt (just for you Jay lol) has been Smokey and the dark side all along. In the sotry Esau was the follower to Jacob. And Isaac, on his deathbed, made him swear not to kill or harm Jacob. Which is why I would say he wants to kill him but he can't. So he manipulates Ben all his life to do it.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 01:25:01 PM
Esau = Spiders that killed Nikki and Paulo.

Now the big question looms....how did those spiders die?
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: BobBX542 on May 14, 2009, 01:26:29 PM
IMDB affectionately refers to him as Man #2. So I'm all up for that. LOL, or maybe Deuce.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: DaveJohnson on May 14, 2009, 01:26:57 PM
So... the opening scene. Jacob catches a fish. That fish was a herring. And it was RED! Just thought I'd share that lol.
I might add, Jacob offered him the food, and 'Esau' didn't take it. Perhaps he learned from his original mistake?  :D
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: BobBX542 on May 14, 2009, 01:27:33 PM
Esau = Spiders that killed Nikki and Paulo.

Now the big question looms....how did those spiders die?

Correction, Medusa=spiders that knocked Nikki and Paulo unconcious/into a coma, Sand=what killed nikki and paulo.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 01:27:38 PM
Exactly.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 01:28:14 PM
lol Bob as technical as always.   :D
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 01:28:34 PM
Maybe we should create a poll on what we should call him.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Jas0n on May 14, 2009, 01:29:03 PM
Maybe we should create a poll on what we should call him.

excellent Idea, do it up, griz
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 01:29:49 PM
It has to be either Esau or Clifford
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 14, 2009, 01:32:05 PM
For choices I've got

Nemesis
Mr. Black
Mr. Blackshirt
Esau
Man #2

Any more I should throw in?

It has to be either Esau or Clifford
Why Clifford? ...Huxtable?
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 01:33:44 PM
There just needs to be a completely random name in there. Also, add Loophole Larry.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Sammy_G on May 14, 2009, 01:35:08 PM
Definately not a red herring fish.  that fish was a red rock fish common in the pacific ocean along the reefs of coastlines.

I think Esau or Jacobs rival is smokey.   Smokey is black, the rival wears black, Esau in the bible is subserviant to Jacob (Jacob can likely control smokey, or at least esau suggests that he can not kill jacob), Smokey visited lock in the Jungle back in season one, and Lock lived.  I think that is when Esau found his loop hole.  He found a person that can be easily manipulated (as we were shown in all of locks flashbacks).
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Jas0n on May 14, 2009, 01:35:54 PM
those are good choices, maybe even mr. smokey.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: stillhaventfound on May 14, 2009, 02:00:11 PM
Um, how about "Bad Twin"???
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: rhythm on May 14, 2009, 02:03:28 PM
IMDB affectionately refers to him as Man #2. So I'm all up for that. LOL, or maybe Deuce.

Deuce- I like it!
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: lostlady on May 14, 2009, 05:01:04 PM
Why the flip are we calling him Esau though? Just because of the name Jacob? Or is there something more that I'm missing. That is WAYYY too obvious for Lost. I think they might pull symbolism from the Jacob/Esau biblical account, but for it to actually BE that, nooo.

my thought exactly
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: opgelost on May 14, 2009, 05:13:38 PM
I just call him Jacob's enemy.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: CameronLee on May 14, 2009, 05:25:27 PM
I saw a comment in one of the articles that calls him "Unlocke" ;) I like that. Other than that my votes either to Esau or Man 2.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: CameronLee on May 14, 2009, 05:31:53 PM
Oh also, about the red herring... I also saw a comment about a quote from the god Sobek (what people now think is the statue). It goes:

I am Sobek, who dwelleth amid his terrors. I am Sobek, and I seize [my prey] like a ravening beast. I am the great Fish which is in Kamui. I am the Lord to whom bowings and prostrations are made in Sekhem. And the Osiris Ani is the lord to whom bowings and prostrations are made in Sekhem.

Kamui means a divine or spiritual being...

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: John Major on May 14, 2009, 05:51:41 PM
Oh also, about the red herring... I also saw a comment about a quote from the god Sobek (what people now think is the statue). It goes:

I am Sobek, who dwelleth amid his terrors. I am Sobek, and I seize [my prey] like a ravening beast. I am the great Fish which is in Kamui. I am the Lord to whom bowings and prostrations are made in Sekhem. And the Osiris Ani is the lord to whom bowings and prostrations are made in Sekhem.

Kamui means a divine or spiritual being...

Just some thoughts.


Just to add something to your mention of Sobek, perhaps Sobek is Jacob and smokey is Apophis. You can read more on Apophis here http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/apep.htm. There are conjectures that say Sobek is the avatar of Ra rather then his own deity, Apophis is the nemesis of Ra.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Zinzi on May 14, 2009, 06:47:05 PM
As long as we don't call him Focke I don't mind what else it is!  ;D

Where have I seen the guy that played him in the opening scenes before?!  (I must check IMDB if I can drag myself away from this forum!)  I found it quite distracting that both Jacob & Unlocke/Deuce were hotties!  ;)  ;D  Some great ideas and theories flying around.  It's interesting that we can apply many different religions and beliefs to Lost.  I think maybe it's not so much about any one religion, but all of them.  In all faiths there are always 2 sides, good and bad.  I just wish I could work out who's who!
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on May 14, 2009, 07:59:46 PM
As long as we don't call him Focke I don't mind what else it is!  ;D

Where have I seen the guy that played him in the opening scenes before?! 
Deadwood?  He played Silas Adams.
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: nomteticus on May 14, 2009, 08:01:07 PM
Enough Esau already, I think the Man In Black is Anubis. He's friends with Smokey (Thoth?) and they both judge and play with dead men.
Jacob is Taweret or Sobek, and he has a different view.

Heck, maybe they're both Jewish and Egyptian. Maybe they are the essence of all religions, who knows?

Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 14, 2009, 10:51:44 PM
So... the opening scene. Jacob catches a fish. That fish was a herring. And it was RED! Just thought I'd share that lol.

Griz, you are a freaking genius. Awesome observation!!
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: ericd543 on May 15, 2009, 03:25:17 AM
I like Blackshirt Man or Man #2 instead of Esau. We do know he was wearing a black shirt and was credited as Man #2 (tv.com (http://www.tv.com/Lost/The+Incident+(2)/episode/1260048/cast.html)).  Esau assumes too much, if you ask me. Though talking with some friends tonight about Lost we referred to him as Esau.

EDIT: Looking for source on the Man #2 credit I noticed Lostpedia has an entry for Jacob's enemy (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob%27s_enemy).
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: wjang on May 15, 2009, 03:47:15 AM
Quote from: Ben Linus
We don't even have a name for it. But I believe your people call it the monster.

I actually like the name "Jacob's Enemy", or JaCoBseNeMY for short
Title: Re: A red herring... litteraly!!
Post by: grizn0 on May 17, 2009, 02:26:46 PM
So... the opening scene. Jacob catches a fish. That fish was a herring. And it was RED! Just thought I'd share that lol.

Griz, you are a freaking genius. Awesome observation!!
Apperantly someone said it wasn't a herring... something called a rock fish. Whatever, close enough haha.