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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x16 => Topic started by: DigitalOSH on May 14, 2009, 01:20:58 AM

Title: Jacob and Esau
Post by: DigitalOSH on May 14, 2009, 01:20:58 AM
I feel as though i may be going on a red herring here but here's a thought.

The two at the beginning of the finale have been referred to as Jacob and Esau... which is a Biblical reference.

In Genesis 25:23 we see this:

 23 The LORD said to her,
       "Two nations are in your womb,
       and two peoples from within you will be separated;
       one people will be stronger than the other,
       and the older will serve the younger."

Esau was the older and Jacob (which, in Hebrew, means 'supplanter' or one who takes power 'illegally'). According to Genesis 25, at one point the elder came home from 'the country' extremely hungry to find Jacob cooking stew. Esau asked for some stew, but Jacob said 'swear to me that you will give me your birthright'. When Esau swore that, Jacob gave him something to eat. Esau despised him for that, and wanted to kill him. Dunno how it ties in, but run with it.


Also, 'Esau' say 'You know, one day WE will find a loophole' as opposed to I will find a loophole. Significant?



I also heard that if you play the intro backwards you'll hear all the answers to all the questions.... IN SATAN'S VOICE
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: hyperform on May 14, 2009, 01:24:36 AM
WE are legion
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: DigitalOSH on May 14, 2009, 01:27:15 AM
Brilliant.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 14, 2009, 01:36:28 AM
Jacob "stole" Esau's birthright. He was out for vengeance then, he is out for vengeance now.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: arkay on May 14, 2009, 02:05:25 AM
Also, the Jacob/Esau thing is obvious, but has anyone brought up cain and abel? 
Cain killed abel, but then Cain was not allowed to be killed.
Maybe Jacob is Cain or something like that?
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 14, 2009, 02:07:00 AM
Yep. But Abel was dead. Does that make Jacob (Cain) and Esau (Seth)? All these bible references confuse me.
Title: "Esau"
Post by: losttill0208 on May 14, 2009, 02:13:34 AM
Is he smokey? During Ben's judgement faux-locke was out of sight the whole time.. could he have been the one who scared the crap out of Ben and gave him specific orders to do what Locke said by taking Alex's form.. So that when the time came to convince Ben to kill Jacob, he wouldn't need that much convincing?
Title: Re: "Esau"
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 14, 2009, 02:17:41 AM
It looks that way.

I wonder if we will find out what REALLY happened when Locke first met the monster. All he said was that it was beautiful.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: arkay on May 14, 2009, 02:20:21 AM
When Lock and Walt were playing chess in Season 1, what did he tell him about the Black and White pieces? 
Wasn't it something about good vs. evil? 
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 14, 2009, 02:22:22 AM
Yessir. It was a pretty powerful theme at the beginning, and it has remained still, even if a little more hazy now. Good, evil, two immortal bastards playing chess with innocent people--it's all good.
Title: Re: "Esau"
Post by: BadRobot64 on May 14, 2009, 03:53:40 AM
It looks that way.

I wonder if we will find out what REALLY happened when Locke first met the monster. All he said was that it was beautiful.

i thin kthat both jacob and esau are both "smokies" esau is being the Cerebus .. the missionary .. violent side... jacob being the one who takes shape and assists and recons... esau did wear black.. jacob wore white...
Title: Re: "Esau"
Post by: Blitz Wing on May 14, 2009, 04:02:57 AM
Is he smokey? During Ben's judgement faux-locke was out of sight the whole time.. could he have been the one who scared the crap out of Ben and gave him specific orders to do what Locke said by taking Alex's form.. So that when the time came to convince Ben to kill Jacob, he wouldn't need that much convincing?


I kind of suspected something was up with Locke during Ben's Judgement: http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=9234.0
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: ConstanceM529 on May 14, 2009, 04:26:57 AM
How do we know his name is Esau? Only Jacob's name was mentioned in the opening.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: The_Hatch_Monkey on May 14, 2009, 04:40:48 AM
Also, the Jacob/Esau thing is obvious, but has anyone brought up cain and abel? 
Cain killed abel, but then Cain was not allowed to be killed.
Maybe Jacob is Cain or something like that?

Cain was also banished by God after killing his brother Abel.

Thought that was interesting since "Locke" talked about how Ben had been 'banished.'
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: bastor on May 14, 2009, 07:22:37 AM
In the Book of Jubilees (which is neither part of the Jewish nor most Christian canons), Esau's father, Isaac, compels Esau to swear not to attack or kill Jacob after Isaac has died.

Hmm...
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Schmokey on May 14, 2009, 12:35:20 PM
okay, I'm just taking great liberties in stretching out this Jacob/Esau idea, but since it came to my mind I'm throwing it out here: 
After 'stealing' Esau's birthright, biblical Jacob goes to work for his uncle Laban and falls in love and later marries Laban's daughter Rachel.  Juliet's sister's name was Rachel, right?   Are there any other Lost names that would go along with the biblical account of Jacob and Esau?   (Isaac & Rebecca were Jacob & Esau's parents, Leah was Rachel's sister, who Jacob had to marry first).   
 
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: opgelost on May 14, 2009, 12:42:50 PM
I know nothing about the bible.
But why would the biblical Jacob weave the eye of Horus
and live in an egyptian statue and write greek instead of hebrew?
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Des on May 14, 2009, 12:49:36 PM
Yep. But Abel was dead. Does that make Jacob (Cain) and Esau (Seth)? All these bible references confuse me.

Who's Seth?
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Staggerlee on May 14, 2009, 12:53:27 PM
I know nothing about the bible.
But why would the biblical Jacob weave the eye of Horus
and live in an egyptian statue and write greek instead of hebrew?

There's a lot of Egypt in the Bible, and the mention of Moses by Ben and the look in Faux Locke's eye when he did so was.....interesting to say the least.

Perchance the roles are reversed and the man in the black (tunic) is the good to the oft mentioned white = good actually = bad...man in black = Moses (like figure)....
Title: Re: "Esau"
Post by: BobBX542 on May 14, 2009, 04:08:43 PM
Is he smokey? During Ben's judgement faux-locke was out of sight the whole time.. could he have been the one who scared the crap out of Ben and gave him specific orders to do what Locke said by taking Alex's form.. So that when the time came to convince Ben to kill Jacob, he wouldn't need that much convincing?


I kind of suspected something was up with Locke during Ben's Judgement: http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=9234.0


I didn't want to believe that theory because it seemed kind of cheesy, but now I don't think I can't believe it.
Title: Re: "Esau"
Post by: Captain Falafel on May 14, 2009, 04:18:57 PM
It looks that way.

I wonder if we will find out what REALLY happened when Locke first met the monster. All he said was that it was beautiful.

Yeah, I really want to know what they see when they meet the Smokemaster General. Remember the Frenchies that Rosseau capped? They had that same blissfully peaceful demeanor after their meeting with Sir Smokesalot. Maybe Danielle wasn't as crazy as we thought. She knew they were "different" post-Smokey and had to be dealt with.
Title: Jacob and Esau
Post by: blondie on May 14, 2009, 06:24:59 PM
So did anyone else notice the fact that Jacob touched every single one of the losties he came in contact with? He touched young Kate’s nose, both Jin and Sun’s shoulder, he brought John Locke back to life by touching him, and he grazed Jack’s hand when he gave him the Apollo bar. I feel they were trying to bring attention to this, but I don’t really know why. Any ideas? Jacob visiting them obviously means that he’s the reason they came to the island, but why did he want them?

I also think that the cabin was never Jacob’s cabin, that it was Esau’s cabin and the ash was what kept him locked inside. I’m not sure how he got out though. Because it wasn’t that cabin that Richard took Esau to to meet Jacob. And Esau was the one that told Richard to tell Locke that he had to die so he could take form of his body.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: RM on May 15, 2009, 12:46:09 AM
But why would the biblical Jacob weave the eye of Horus

(Well, clearly Jacob is multicultural speaking all those languages fluently.)

I didn't have a detailed view of the tapestry, but what I thought it was was a disc in the sky with wings, which was the way Egyptians depicted the Sun/Sun god/(Ra?)  The Greek made me think of the Greco-Roman sun god, Apollo, and we see Jacob with two Apollo bars, one for himself and one for Jack.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on May 15, 2009, 12:54:18 AM
I'm thinking Jacob guides the living and Essau guides the dead.   
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: BobBX542 on May 15, 2009, 03:19:19 PM
When Lock and Walt were playing chess in Season 1, what did he tell him about the Black and White pieces? 
Wasn't it something about good vs. evil? 

Backgamon, not Chess. not a big deal, but maybe it has more meaning.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: opgelost on May 15, 2009, 04:02:26 PM
He told him that it was a game they allready played in ancient Mesopotamia
and it was older than Jesus Christ. Two players, two halfs, one light, one dark.
Locke wears black shoes and Walt white shoes.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: razzle-dazzle on May 15, 2009, 04:10:38 PM
He told him that it was a game they allready played in ancient Mesopotamia
and it was older than Jesus Christ. Two players, two halfs, one light, one dark.
Locke wears black shoes and Walt white shoes.

Christian wore white Shoes, but Jack put dark shoes on Locke's body. Very interesting opgelost!
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: JBRam on May 15, 2009, 04:35:40 PM
Yep. But Abel was dead. Does that make Jacob (Cain) and Esau (Seth)? All these bible references confuse me.

Who's Seth?
Seth is the third son of Adam and Eve. The lesser known brother of Cain and Abel.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: JBRam on May 15, 2009, 04:36:57 PM
I know nothing about the bible.
But why would the biblical Jacob weave the eye of Horus
and live in an egyptian statue and write greek instead of hebrew?
The vast majority of the New Testament is originally written in Greek.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: lostandfree on May 15, 2009, 04:51:53 PM
How do we know his name is Esau? Only Jacob's name was mentioned in the opening.

His name isn't actually Esau...that's what we are calling him based on Jacob and Esau from the bible.  In reality the character has not yet been named.
Title: The rules for Jacob and [Esau]
Post by: RM on May 17, 2009, 02:05:41 AM
So is this is all two higher beings playing some kind of game?  That fits in very much with the way the Greeks saw "fate" and the will of the gods -- that the misfortunes of man were often just consequences of the whims of the gods (i.e., not necessarily some pre-scripted plan that leads to individual salvation/damnation based on how pure is your faith).

If that's what this is, what are the rules they're playing by?

Jacob seems to visit our Losties as himself (but incognito), touches them, and plants a suggestive philosophy about which way to choose to act, but he is very much leaving them to exercise their free will.

[Esau] seems to appear as a supernatural apparition giving a specific direct order leaving them to believe that there's a particular way they're "supposed to" go, "giving up" their free will by doing what they think the gods want.

The nature of time/history (the prepressed record that course-corrects any small free will changes) seems to be a given that exists outside the control of Jacob and [Esau].

[Esau]'s finding a way to kill Jacob just seems to be an out to stop playing the game altogether.  For whatever reason -- I can believe it's an oath -- he can't do it directly himself.
Title: Re: The rules for Jacob and [Esau]
Post by: mushermellon on May 17, 2009, 02:17:50 AM
ok, read somewhere on here that the tapestry Jacob was weaving said at the top something like may the Gods give you your heart's desire...thinking of how this links with what Ben said when he had Locke's father with him about the anaology of a big box where you could have whatever you imagined (paraphrase).  Could some of this be that the island is lke The Secret, that the people coming manifest what they think/dream/fear?
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: BobBX542 on May 18, 2009, 12:52:34 PM
ok, read somewhere on here that the tapestry Jacob was weaving said at the top something like may the Gods give you your heart's desire...thinking of how this links with what Ben said when he had Locke's father with him about the anaology of a big box where you could have whatever you imagined (paraphrase).  Could some of this be that the island is lke The Secret, that the people coming manifest what they think/dream/fear?

You know how mad that would make me if LOST was just some big allegory for "The Secret." LOL
Title: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
Post by: griffinx1 on May 18, 2009, 09:28:51 PM
Ok, so we know from the opening scene that Jacob and "the man in black" (who some of us refer to as Esau) are at odds with one another. They are talking about the coming of the ship, how they found the island, proving each other wrong, mankind and progress, "the man in black" wanting to kill Jacob, the loophole, etc.

I've been concentrating so hard on the Egyptian tie-ins that the Greek Mythology tie-ins never came up - until now. We have seen the tapestry that Jacob was weaving, some have noted Greek and Egyptian writing. Plus, there is the whole Latin speaking deal...interesting.

It seems like the producers, in an attempt to keep people digging and looking, have almost made us focus on the Egyptian symbols and tie-ins. We've seen glyphs, writing, statues, etc from the beginning. We've heard Smokey "the black smoke monster" referred to as "Cerberus" (in the Lost Experience ARG). But what about Greek Mythology?

So I started doing some digging and cracking all those old Greek Mythology books. It turns out (and remember the candy bar kiddies - Apollo) that there is a story of two brothers - Prometheus and Epimetheus. It's kind of ineteresting in that Epimetheus (meaning literally hind-thought, but in the manner of a fool looking behind, while running forward) and Prometheus (foresight, literally fore-thought), were a pair of Titans who "acted as representatives of mankind". They were the inseparable sons of Iapetus (sounds a lot like Lupidas), who in other contexts was the father of Atlas. While Prometheus is characterized as ingenious and clever, Epimetheus is depicted as foolish.

These twin Titans were entrusted with distributing the traits among the newly-created animals; Epimetheus was responsible for giving a positive trait to every animal, but when it was time to give man a positive trait, lacking foresight he found that there was nothing left. His brother Prometheus then bestowed upon man the image and stature of the gods.

The story goes on that Prometheus stole fire from Olympus and was punished by Zeus. He was immortal so they chained him to a mountain and each day an eagle ate his liver. Of course he never died. As punishment to Man, Zeus created Pandora, the first woman, for Epimetheus, knowing that he would fall in love with her despite the warnings of his brother, the embodiment of "foresight", who told him never to accept a gift from the Olympian gods, with whom the primordial Titans, sprung from Mother Earth, were ever at odds.

I'm a firm believer that these two, whoever they are, have been around a long, long time going back and forth and are at odds with one another. I do not know who is "good" and who is "evil" since they both have a sort of calm demeanor about them - both kind of sure and cocky. They have most likely been here since before the Greek and Egyptian times. Almost like time travelers or aliens from another planet that crashed here many, many years ago.

Bottom line - they have powers we have only seen a glimpse of and the inhabitants of the island have kind of worshiped them for years. They have built statues, temples, etc and and been blessed with "gifts from the gods".

Then there is Smokey "the black smoke monster". I don't know exactly his role, whether he is the "man in black" or not but I suspect he is a guardian of some sort, almost like a pet to these two Titan like characters.

So - what do you think? Let's hear it! Let me know if you think I'm way off, on, hot, cold or just a helpless Lost addict like the rest of us on here! :)
Title: Re: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
Post by: james_sawyer on May 19, 2009, 03:29:07 AM
really nice story ..there are so many glimpses of religious aspect in lost , but thats is what they are glimpses, the creators want everyone to dig deeper and make a mountain out of anthill ...coming to jacob and other guy are they god ..i dont think so if jacob is god why will he die from a stabbing ..yes i agree both of them seem to have other power and i truly believe if anybody knows everything about the island then its these two guys ...these two also seem to be playing everyone (maybe for selfish motives or greater good) but i just wish lost sticks  to scientific explanation rather than supernatural stuff  :o
Title: Re: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
Post by: LouE68 on May 19, 2009, 03:49:14 AM
it's similar too, Rush's Hemispheres song, about Dionisis an Apollo....I'm sure there are alot of similarities the writers took bits and pieces from...
Title: Re: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
Post by: Maxor127 on May 19, 2009, 06:50:03 AM
Cerberus is a Greek mythological connection, btw.
Title: Esau
Post by: Novashannon on May 19, 2009, 03:31:12 PM
I know LOST has sort of been mainly following Egyptian mythology, but the Israelites did build the tombs and left Egypt.  In Judeo-Christian tradition, Esau was the twin brother of Jacob.  Jacob tricked Esau into giving up his brthright as eldest son.  Jacob received their father's blessing disguised as Jacob, who was a hunter.

I don't knoe if this is significant; nothing in the show seems to be an accident.

If someone else has already posted this, sorry, I have not come across it.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: BobBX542 on May 20, 2009, 11:04:51 AM
I know LOST has sort of been mainly following Egyptian mythology, but the Israelites did build the tombs and left Egypt.  In Judeo-Christian tradition, Esau was the twin brother of Jacob.  Jacob tricked Esau into giving up his brthright as eldest son.  Jacob received their father's blessing disguised as Jacob, who was a hunter.

I don't knoe if this is significant; nothing in the show seems to be an accident.

If someone else has already posted this, sorry, I have not come across it.

Don't take this the wrong way Nova, but if you haven't come across it yet on the site, you must be going through it with your eyes closed. LOL
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Staggerlee on May 20, 2009, 11:13:44 AM
For that eloquent, polite dismissal of another's idea/theory Bobbx, you get an early morning Irish Pop Tart*!!!






*only half a pint o' Guinness for the early birdies....full pints only after 10:30....
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: BobBX542 on May 20, 2009, 11:41:37 AM
For that eloquent, polite dismissal of another's idea/theory Bobbx, you get an early morning Irish Pop Tart*!!!






*only half a pint o' Guinness for the early birdies....full pints only after 10:30....

Not dismissing at all, just saying that I think almost every other person logging onto the site has posted the story of Jacob and Esau.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Staggerlee on May 20, 2009, 12:09:13 PM
Exactly, at least I could read in it a joking politeness that was rather refreshing to read.

raise the glasses, clink the rims, swallow the dark brew heartily...repeat the third as necessary....
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: Novashannon on May 20, 2009, 02:29:22 PM
Dudes, give me a swig!  There are topics now, but I came through and read the day after the epi, and none had thought of it then.  I posted a thread, but it desappeared and newer threads have taken over.  I have yet to read back through all of them.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: BobBX542 on May 20, 2009, 03:51:10 PM
Dudes, give me a swig!  There are topics now, but I came through and read the day after the epi, and none had thought of it then.  I posted a thread, but it desappeared and newer threads have taken over.  I have yet to read back through all of them.

Just saying is all.
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: LostinLock on March 21, 2010, 09:37:42 AM
A Story of Two Brothers
For twenty years after her marriage Rebecca was thought to be barren. Her husband prayed to the Lord on her behalf and she conceived twins. When she had been pregnant for seven months she began to wish that the curse of childlessness had not been removed from her. She suffered great pains, because her twin sons began their lifelong quarrel in her womb. She consulted the Lord who told her: “Two nations are in your womb. Two peoples are quarrelling while still within you. But one shall surpass the other and the older shall serve the younger” (Gn 25:23).
Esau (which means ruddy and hairy) was the first-born. The second, who grabbed his brother’s heel, was called Jacob. In the Bible and in the Semitic world the name given to a person is very important for it contains his vocation. To “grab his heel” figuratively means “to deceive.” Jacob would be known as the deceiver because he stole the birthright from his brother and deceived his father who bestowed on him the promise made to Abraham which should have gone to the first born. Jacob became the inheritor of the covenant.
Esau hated his younger brother Jacob on account of the blessing that his father had given him. Thinking that this might result in murder, Jacob was sent away to find a wife among their kinsmen in Haran where he accumulated a fortune. Esau also became a wealthy man. The two sons followed different paths of life.

Okay - I had to bring this thread back because there are elements here that fit these characters.  I am not saying that this what is happening but there is a similarity to this story.  It would make sense that these wto are more siblings than friends.  I dont' want to call MIB Esau because I am hopeful TPTB have not gone biblical on us, but have taken a tale that spans the centuries - I am sure there are all kinds of stories about siblings fighting - to create another story that has a twist by inlcuding other folks, maily our Losties
Title: Re: Jacob and Esau
Post by: LostinLock on June 05, 2010, 09:28:46 AM
Well, isn't that kind of funny his name was not Esau

Jacob wasn't the deceiver in this story, but he brother was prone to that...so in the end close but no cigar