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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x16 => Topic started by: devenezy on May 14, 2009, 12:33:40 AM

Title: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: devenezy on May 14, 2009, 12:33:40 AM
Anyone else think that question was a rhetorical inquiry based on friendship rather than a threat? Suppose Jacob wanted to be killed and the two were trying to find a way to break whatever rules prevented him from dying.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Austruck on May 14, 2009, 12:40:17 AM
I don't know why he wants to kill him, but here's my theory about what's happening over the entire arc of the series:

I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed. Perhaps that first character we see isn't even the "original" guy, but another dead apparition.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong living people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: OhJoy on May 14, 2009, 10:32:27 AM
But after all these years of Jacob living he is stabbed by Ben and dies?  I suppose what you are saying Austruck makes sense that it was the right person willing to kill him... but it just seemed too easy to me..

Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 14, 2009, 10:35:02 AM
But after all these years of Jacob living he is stabbed by Ben and dies?  I suppose what you are saying Austruck makes sense that it was the right person willing to kill him... but it just seemed too easy to me..



Except we don't know for sure that Jacob is dead. This is Lost.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Asmodean on May 14, 2009, 10:36:35 AM
Then there was that whole scene with Ben & Charles when Ben told him he couldn't kill him.  It's against "the rules."  Maybe the same sort of theme going on here.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: OhJoy on May 14, 2009, 10:36:55 AM
my bet is that he isn't.  because contrary to what Ben says.. dead is not dead on the island
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 14, 2009, 10:38:41 AM
Am I the only one who thought the stabbing scene was more awkward and worse looking then the sub?

I think the loophole may have something to do with Locke resurrected by Jacob after his fall, or former leader choosing to kill him.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: bfth on May 14, 2009, 10:46:50 AM
Dead IS dead.  And the "other guy" (Esau) is appearing as Locke.  Locke IS dead and therefore, Ben is STILL the leader.  Therefore, the leader "killed" Jacob.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 14, 2009, 10:51:20 AM
Dead IS dead.  And the "other guy" (Esau) is appearing as Locke.  Locke IS dead and therefore, Ben is STILL the leader.  Therefore, the leader "killed" Jacob.

I like it, Flocke said "I am the leader right" "I am going to kill Jacob" "Ben you kill Jacob". The only thing I have a problem with is, does Ben automaticaly become the leader again?
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: RM on May 14, 2009, 06:33:39 PM
I think Ben was the leader again the moment he killed the real Locke.

Richard said "there can only be one leader at a time" and also that two leaders can't go into Jacob's lair at the same time ... and they didn't.  Only the current leader (Ben) and the Smokey/Locke went in.

------

I think Jacob and Smokey are in a time loop, and at least Smokey is tired of reliving it.  Jacob says the ultimate end doesn't come until the loop itself ends (which may mean Jacob's death is the end of the looping).
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: loopist on May 14, 2009, 06:58:41 PM
We saw how easily Ben got Michael to kill Libby and Ana Lucia, why does fake Locke need to go through this much trouble to off Jacob?  If it was just finding a "real" person to kill Jacob, I'm sure he could have found some easily manipulated person to do the deed.  So yeah, Ben must be special in this case, or the fact that he is the leader...
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: lostandfree on May 14, 2009, 07:03:44 PM
Am I the only one who thought the stabbing scene was more awkward and worse looking then the sub?

I think the loophole may have something to do with Locke resurrected by Jacob after his fall, or former leader choosing to kill him.

I agree with you about the stabbing scene.  It looked totally lame.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: spencer on May 14, 2009, 07:39:07 PM
I think the reason why UnLocke wants Jacob to die is just to stop the endless
shipwrecks and crashes on the island, experiments that keep failing.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Staggerlee on May 14, 2009, 07:41:12 PM
To prove his point, usurp...do the thing he criticizes the educated apes of doing..violence to end a problem...instead of just existing peacefully...
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Ycare on May 14, 2009, 08:06:49 PM
A "loophole" is exactly what it is, a hole in the loop.
The loop is/was the losties who keep on going back in time and dying and coming, ad nauseam... The hole is the dead Locke, who was suppose to be the leader but got killed by Ben, who got back on the island himself. That's one empty seat. Faux Locke cannot kill Jacob himself, but needs someone's arm, Ben's lack of faith/disappointment is the flaw to Jacob's plan of meeting only selected people.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 15, 2009, 08:29:23 AM
Ahh stupid me. I totaly forgot about little boy Ben being taken to the temple to be saved. We havn't seen him since Richard took him through the temple wall door. We have no idea what happened to that kid. Perhaps he is saved by Jacob? So the loophole is; saved other-for-life ex-leader Ben, who killed other saved guy Locke can kill Jacob. Nice loophole!
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 15, 2009, 10:15:15 AM
Anyone else think that question was a rhetorical inquiry based on friendship rather than a threat? Suppose Jacob wanted to be killed and the two were trying to find a way to break whatever rules prevented him from dying.

No. I think he was dead serious. He had a very deadly look about him. He really wanted Jacob dead. And he couldn't just break the rules, it seems. He needed to find the loophole. And now that Jacob is dead, things will change. At least that is what he said, he said that once Jacob was dead things would be different. Unless, of course, he ends up being wrong.

DEAD wrong!
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Survivor815 on May 15, 2009, 11:26:38 AM
I think the reason why UnLocke wants Jacob to die is just to stop the endless
shipwrecks and crashes on the island, experiments that keep failing.

"UnLocke" I love that term!
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: lostandfree on May 15, 2009, 11:32:11 AM
So do you guys think that the "rules" that make it impossible to kill Jacob are the same rules that said Alex could not be killed?  It seemed like the rules were easily broken in Alex' case so why was it so difficult to kill Jacob?  Will we ever find out what exactly these rules are and where they come from?
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 15, 2009, 11:38:54 AM
I think the rules between Charles and Ben were simple stipulations set up by both men. Jacob and his rival were playing a more important game. The stakes were higher in their case, the rules were more universal than personal, and probably a whole lot harder to bend. The rule wasn't outright broken, since "Unlocke" spoke about a loophole.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: devenezy on May 15, 2009, 09:58:00 PM
Anyone else think that question was a rhetorical inquiry based on friendship rather than a threat? Suppose Jacob wanted to be killed and the two were trying to find a way to break whatever rules prevented him from dying.

No. I think he was dead serious. He had a very deadly look about him. He really wanted Jacob dead. And he couldn't just break the rules, it seems. He needed to find the loophole. And now that Jacob is dead, things will change. At least that is what he said, he said that once Jacob was dead things would be different. Unless, of course, he ends up being wrong.

DEAD wrong!

Dead funny reply.
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: Kinuvia on May 15, 2009, 11:23:35 PM
Dead IS dead.  And the "other guy" (Esau) is appearing as Locke.  Locke IS dead and therefore, Ben is STILL the leader.  Therefore, the leader "killed" Jacob.

Reading this thread I found myself thinking how funny it would be (and typical of Ben - although of course hardly likely) if in the Season 6 opener, Ben turns around to 'Un'Locke and says, 'and I'm sick and tired of your ** too,'  and then stabs him to death (again).   :D
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: laklost on May 16, 2009, 12:35:12 AM
Dead IS dead.  And the "other guy" (Esau) is appearing as Locke.  Locke IS dead and therefore, Ben is STILL the leader.  Therefore, the leader "killed" Jacob.

Reading this thread I found myself thinking how funny it would be (and typical of Ben - although of course hardly likely) if in the Season 6 opener, Ben turns around to 'Un'Locke and says, 'and I'm sick and tired of your ** too,'  and then stabs him to death (again).   :D

I was totally waiting for that the entire scene.  Even after Jacob got bbq'ed I was just sure that knife was going into UnLocke's ungut!
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: jugdish on May 16, 2009, 01:32:08 AM
Dead IS dead.  And the "other guy" (Esau) is appearing as Locke.  Locke IS dead and therefore, Ben is STILL the leader.  Therefore, the leader "killed" Jacob.

THen Ben would wind up ruling the island

Reading this thread I found myself thinking how funny it would be (and typical of Ben - although of course hardly likely) if in the Season 6 opener, Ben turns around to 'Un'Locke and says, 'and I'm sick and tired of your ** too,'  and then stabs him to death (again).   :D

I was totally waiting for that the entire scene.  Even after Jacob got bbq'ed I was just sure that knife was going into UnLocke's ungut!
Title: Re: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
Post by: LostinLock on June 26, 2009, 11:57:26 AM
Then there was that whole scene with Ben & Charles when Ben told him he couldn't kill him.  It's against "the rules."  Maybe the same sort of theme going on here.

I am so into believing this is a game.  I am trying to figure out just what the winner gets, oh the Island?