Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x16 => Topic started by: Writers_Strike on May 14, 2009, 12:11:25 AM

Title: You found your loophole
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 14, 2009, 12:11:25 AM
What did this mean? I am thinking that since Jacob brought Locke back to life after his fall, the man in black could take him over once his dead body returned to the island. Or maybe he just needed someone else to kill him, like an ex-leader.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Novashannon on May 14, 2009, 12:15:55 AM
I took it to mean he couldn't kill Jacob directly himself, but he could get someone else to do it.  He manipulated Ben.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: jamesl on May 14, 2009, 12:19:05 AM
I took it to mean he couldn't kill Jacob directly himself, but he could get someone else to do it.  He manipulated Ben.

exactly
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Austruck on May 14, 2009, 12:25:28 AM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong living people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.

Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 14, 2009, 12:31:26 AM
Maybe thats why he couldn't touch Locke as Christian, it might undo the weird voodoo Jacob gave him.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: jamesl on May 14, 2009, 12:33:32 AM
Maybe thats why he couldn't touch Locke as Christian, it might undo the weird voodoo Jacob gave him.

damn, everyone's coming up with some great theories

that makes a lot of sense
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: OLLY-wood on May 14, 2009, 12:35:27 AM
it's the same rules that applied to widmore and ben.

simple literature 101 really, man in black represents the intricacies of death, and the man in white (Jacob in this case) represents the intricacies of "life, both good and bad"

refer back to their conversation in the opening minutes of the episode for a little more insight
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: DizzyIzzy on May 14, 2009, 12:37:10 AM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: OLLY-wood on May 14, 2009, 12:42:06 AM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

Perhaps he really is like Miles in a sense, he's a "gifted child"
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Austruck on May 14, 2009, 12:44:18 AM
Hey, give me time to work out the intricacies. It's been half an hour since I figured this out.  :)

Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 14, 2009, 12:44:36 AM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

He neede Hurley to get on the plane. That was just part of the convincing.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: OLLY-wood on May 14, 2009, 12:47:59 AM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

He neede Hurley to get on the plane. That was just part of the convincing.

And convincing Hurley to get on the plane would contribute to the "conditions" needed to get the plane back to the island, along with the rest of the Ajira passengers (Ilana et. al)
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Bostonlost on May 14, 2009, 01:32:22 AM
I don't think Jacob was conning Hurley on the Plane I think it is at face value. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: hyperform on May 14, 2009, 01:36:42 AM
it's the same rules that applied to widmore and ben.

simple literature 101 really, man in black represents the intricacies of death, and the man in white (Jacob in this case) represents the intricacies of "life, both good and bad"

refer back to their conversation in the opening minutes of the episode for a little more insight

I was just thinking that maybe that scene from  The Shape of Things To Come with Ben and Charles in Charles bedroom, was actually Jacob and Esau speaking to each other through them.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 14, 2009, 01:38:29 AM
Honestly, I have no idea what the hell is going on. Did Esau really have to go through such a long and elaborate plan to get Ben to kill Jacob? He could have bribed him.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: tonysee200x on May 14, 2009, 01:39:08 AM
I like it, now work in how smokey fits in and why smokey told ben to listen to locke?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: jamesl on May 14, 2009, 01:42:04 AM
I like it, now work in how smokey fits in and why smokey told ben to listen to locke?

smokey and the fake locke are the same "person"
they / he manipulated Ben to kill Jacob
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: arkay on May 14, 2009, 01:42:55 AM
it's the same rules that applied to widmore and ben.

simple literature 101 really, man in black represents the intricacies of death, and the man in white (Jacob in this case) represents the intricacies of "life, both good and bad"

refer back to their conversation in the opening minutes of the episode for a little more insight

I was just thinking that maybe that scene from  The Shape of Things To Come with Ben and Charles in Charles bedroom, was actually Jacob and Esau speaking to each other through them.


Oh snap!  That's a good point!
Maybe it was something from the future that we haven't seen, or maybe Ben and Charles were bound by the same rules?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: NorthShoreOGLost on May 14, 2009, 08:03:05 AM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

He neede Hurley to get on the plane. That was just part of the convincing.

He did want Hurley to get on the plane and it probably was part of the convincing, but I think it's much simpler than that, too.  Seems to me like he was just trying to comfort and encourage Hurley, pointing out that when other people lose loved ones to death, they don't ever get to see them again.  In other words, Hurley should feel blessed because he gets to continue to see loved ones who've died while others do not have this privelege.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: bastor on May 14, 2009, 08:09:44 AM
Double post from me but:

In the Book of Jubilees (which is neither part of the Jewish nor most Christian canons), Esau's father, Isaac, compels Esau to swear not to attack or kill Jacob after Isaac has died.

 -Wiki

Promise/Oath/Whatever some force can not let him directly kill Jacob (Jacob's death as said by Ben in an interview is a cataclysmic event) so he needed someone to do it passively....
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: lostieloo on May 14, 2009, 11:17:18 AM
It's so ironic because up to this point, ben has been the manipulator.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 12:46:07 PM
Ben only thought he was the manipulator. Just as we thought he was the manipulator. Turns out we were all wrong! Smokey/Esau/BlackShirt has been manipulating one side of the game. Just as Jacob has been manipulating the other side, albeit in a nicer fashion.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: simeean on May 14, 2009, 02:04:34 PM
That's what I'm trying to figure out, this whole time it's been Widmore vs. Ben, but now where do they fit into anything? Are they still opposing sides? Or are they just part of Jacob's plot to prove #2 wrong? Is their little war just an educational strategy game, like tic tac toe in Wargames?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: MattChiz on May 14, 2009, 02:05:45 PM
think of ben and widmore like rooks in a chess game. Theyre pretty important, but they are still pieces on a board...
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: RM on May 15, 2009, 01:25:55 AM
Yes, Ben and Widmore (and everyone, even Richard) are just pieces on the board game being played out by Jacob and [Esau].  The thing is, in this game, no single piece "belongs" to one player or the other.  Both players can influence the "moves" of any piece through their persuasive influence on the free will choice of the piece (person).

But, Ilana and Bram are clearly in opposition to Widmore.  That suggests that they feel they're on Jacob's side and Widmore is on [Esau]'s side.  Widmore is clearly against Ben, but it's not clear to me that Ben was ever chosen by Jacob.  That was a free will audible by Richard, and Jacob never consecrated that choice by summoning Ben for an audience or speaking directly to him.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: WhatThe on May 15, 2009, 04:43:00 AM
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: BobBX542 on May 15, 2009, 04:11:04 PM
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

I think that the loophole is actually "Somebody other than you must have a desire, and good reason to kill Jacob". That's what I got out of it. And I agree with you, just having someone else kill Jacob would be easy, why not just drive Danielle crazy while she lived alone in the jungle all that time, then somehow drive her towards the statue, and have her do it. The person (other than Man 2) probably has to have a very good reason to kill him.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: bastor on May 15, 2009, 04:19:48 PM
Yes but Ben didn't really have a good motive...i mean for all he knows he has been getting his orders and lists from the crazy in Richards head BUT Ben is the leader since Locke is dead, isn't he? What if only the proclaimed leader can do it? And another question...how exactly was Ben healed as a child? It had something to do with mysterious powers....maybe Ben was the only one all along who could kill Jacob....yet we are not sure Jacob is dead just cus his body is....
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: opgelost on May 15, 2009, 04:37:20 PM
That's what I really want to know. How Ben got healed.
Jacob asked Ilana for help, Ilana helped him bringing Sayid to the island,
Sayid tries to kill young Ben, Ben is brought to the temple by Richard.
What happened in that temple?

I would say Jacob's enemy healed Ben, because Ben is the one that will kill Locke,
take his body, keep it safe and bring him back to the island and Ben is the one who will
kill Jacob.
But why would Richard do that if he is on Jacob's side.

If Jacob healed Ben, why would he do that? He doesn't like him, never wants to see him,
gives him cancer and Ben will kill him.

Widmore was right when he told Ben that Jacob wanted baby Alex to be killed. She is Ben's weakness
and now Jacob's enemy used her to make sure that Ben would listen to him (fake Locke).
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: bastor on May 15, 2009, 04:46:19 PM
We are not sure why Ben had cancer....maybe Jacob healed Ben and hence Ben got the power to kill Jacob and from then on Man #2/Black Shirt w/e had been scheming on how to turn Ben against Jacob which got pretty easy when a newcomer suddenly took his position and got more by doing nothing than Ben had ever had with hard achieved with hard work....i mean c'mon he was pretty pissed....he gets cancer a guy next to him get to raise from the dead (so it seemed to him)
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: opgelost on May 15, 2009, 04:53:11 PM
Jack healed Ben, forced by Juliet.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: simeean on May 15, 2009, 04:53:33 PM
That's what I really want to know. How Ben got healed.
Jacob asked Ilana for help, Ilana helped him bringing Sayid to the island,
Sayid tries to kill young Ben, Ben is brought to the temple by Richard.
What happened in that temple?

I would say Jacob's enemy healed Ben, because Ben is the one that will kill Locke,
take his body, keep it safe and bring him back to the island and Ben is the one who will
kill Jacob.
But why would Richard do that if he is on Jacob's side.

If Jacob healed Ben, why would he do that? He doesn't like him, never wants to see him,
gives him cancer and Ben will kill him.

Widmore was right when he told Ben that Jacob wanted baby Alex to be killed. She is Ben's weakness
and now Jacob's enemy used her to make sure that Ben would listen to him (fake Locke).


Maybe Ben doesn't know? He's pretty pissed at Jacob for never speaking to him, never appearing to him, when Jacob is actually the entire reason Ben is even alive.... More daddy issues for Ben? There's got to be a reason they haven't gone back to Ben's healing after so many episodes... That may be the loophole, Jacob can only be killed by someone who was... whatever-was-done-to-Ben.... by Jacob?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: MangoBingo on May 15, 2009, 07:52:40 PM
Remember when Locke broke his leg at the bottom of the well and Christian advised him that he couldn't assist him?

Maybe Christian was also being inhabited by the black-shirt-guy all along.

Perhaps it's a competition... Jacob is trying to win by influencing individuals and black-shirt-guy is trying to win by being passive.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: cookieshoes on May 15, 2009, 09:20:45 PM
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself.  Like someone else mentioned before, like a game of chess. But where the opponent's pawns are used to kill their own King. In which case, the "loophole" as we now know, was revealed by using John Locke.

First, up to this point we've been led to believe that there are two individuals on the island involved in Jacob's protection. Each one of them with a unique role. There is Jacob's personal liaison = Richard, who Jacob made immortal, presumably so that he can protect Jacob forever. And then there is the leader of the army that does Jacob's bidding = first Widmore, and then Ben. As times changes, the members of the army grow old and die, so there is constantly a need for new people to be a part of it. It's therefore a revolving system of protection, where Jacob only needs to count on one person, Richard, while the rest are expendable leaders and new bodies. So, to infiltrate that system of protection required someone who could not only get the trust of both Richard and Ben, but also be able to manipulate both of them so that they not only brought the man-in-black to Jacob, but also killed Jacob for him.

So, this "someone" is the loophole. The loophole had to be an off-island arrival who when arriving on the island came to the realization that they need to not only stay there, but protect it (and by extension, Jacob). Which would help to align him to those already doing that job (Richard and Ben). Additionally, he had to not only impress them with his committment to the island, but also be in a position where, for some reason, Richard and Ben would look up to him and start treating him as their new leader, or as someone "special".

The man-in-black did this by first giving Locke the ability to walk again. Which won him Locke's allegiance to the island, and by extension a "false" allegiance to Jacob.  By orchestrating the time travel where Locke was able to go back in time to visit Richard, this set up Richard to influence Ben later on when Locke reappeared in the future.  So, now Locke seemed like his own meaningful leader with a history on the island, rather than just an outsider or a stranger.  Since he had regained the ability to walk, this impressed Ben, who had cancer.  And since he had not aged a day in 50 years, and spoke of things that had yet to happen, this impressed Richard, who was the only other inhabitant of the island who did not age.

So, with that set of manipulation in place (the man-in-black using Locke, Richard, and Ben) the man-in-black had to then orchestrate it so that Locke would be killed by Ben out of jealousy, yet also create a circumstance by which Ben would bring Locke's body back to the island, so that the man-in-black could use his body as a vehicle. From there, he would be in a position to use that person's body and identity to further exert his influence over both Ben and Richard.  Ben would follow Locke, because Ben had killed him and, being human himself, obviously would see that Locke was powerful enough to have been brought back to life. And Richard would follow Locke, because Richard had never seen anyone brought back to life before either, so that meant that Locke was obviously more special than he was as well.

In between this, the man-in-black used living Locke, as well as the death of Ben's daughter and Jacob's silence to Ben, to corrupt Ben's faith in Jacob. And he used Locke to mislead Richard.

So, when the time came, and the circumstances were right, in Locke's body he was easily able to convince Richard to take him to Jacob, and he was able to convince Ben to kill Jacob for him.

The only hitch here I think is why Jacob never warned Richard about John Locke?  If Jacob had been regularly communicating with Richard, wouldn't Richard have mentioned this guy who had been traveling through time?  Why wouldn't Jacob have instructed Richard not to believe in anyone who comes back to life, or at least warned Richard that Jacob had a nemesis on the island who was constantly trying to kill him? 

Which perhaps is where Jacob's loophole comes in? Or is that part of the arrangement between Jacob and his nemesis, that neither of them can speak to anyone about the other's existence?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: aha on May 16, 2009, 01:02:38 AM
I take the "loophole" to be all the work Nemesis did to arrange for Locke to 1) become the Leader of the Others (even though he was not special); 2) die while Leader; 3) have his corpse transported back to the island so Nemesis could assume his form (via bringing back all of the Oceanic Six, and making sure Locke's corpse came with them).  This allowed Nemesis-as-Locke to demand access to Jacob's inner sanctum, force Ben to accompany him inside, and motivate Ben to kill Jacob (via appearing as his daughter).

On the other hand, it sure doesn't appear that Jacob was going to try to persuade Ben to stand down.  It's as though he either wanted to die at that time (as we saw, he had been intervening in everyone's lives for decades in order to set something up), or he is really big on free will.  He all but dared Ben to stab him.  Meanwhile, Ben has been more or less under the sway of the island ever since 1977 when Richard saved his life at the temple.  So does he, or any of the characters, actually have free will?  That seems to be the central question of the show this season, and the answer thus far has proven to be No.  Every "choice" they think they are making is actually pre-ordained and ultimately orchestrated by, presumably, Jacob.

Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: hyperform on May 16, 2009, 01:06:47 AM
Does this mean that Eloise is on Esau's side?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: jugdish on May 16, 2009, 01:23:27 AM
Great posts cookieshoes. I am along the same line of thought. It was the whole process. That is why Phonylocke told Jacob he had no idea what he went through.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Bostonlost on May 16, 2009, 02:59:11 AM
Nice post cookieshoes


The only thing that I would have is that we need all of the "rules" to understand were the loophole lies
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: CaseyMac on May 16, 2009, 03:58:53 AM
I like the post cookieshoes. It would certainly make sense of "Locke's" line to Jacob, "You have no idea what I had to go through."
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Blitz Wing on May 16, 2009, 06:39:36 AM
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

I think the "loophole" might be more than just having somebody else kill Jacob. It could be you had to get one of Jacob's leaders to betray him.....Ben being the leader (as real Locke is really dead) betrayed Jacob by stabbing him. This could be somewhat foreshadowed by Ben blowing away Caesar (Ben playing the role of Brutus in the betrayal of Julius Caesar?). Or it could also have something to do with Ben being banished from the Island....as it seems like anybody who's been kicked off the Island can't get back on.....but Ben found a way. Or as others have pointed out, it could have something to do with how Young Ben was healed from Sayid's gunshot.

One point of interest though.....we're all assuming that the guy in black can't kill Jacob, so he gets Ben to do it. Well technically Ben never killed Jacob, he only wounded Jacob. I think fake "Locke" kicking Jacob into the firepit would more likely qualify as killing Jacob. But WTF...I thought the guy in black (aka fake "Locke") can't kill Jacob!?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: RM on May 17, 2009, 12:09:26 AM
Perhaps it's a competition... Jacob is trying to win by influencing individuals and black-shirt-guy is trying to win by being passive.

Yeah, I'm interested in the difference between the way Jacob is playing their game and the way [Esau] is playing.  Jacob seems to be (besides the physical touching) anonymously putting a thought in their heads whereas [Esau] is making supernatural appearances to people.  Jacob is after people feeling they are making their own choices creating their future whereas [Esau] is after people feeling their fate is predestined and let themselves be guided by revelation of what they're "supposed to do".
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: elise on May 17, 2009, 08:56:02 AM
maybe everyone is over complicating it.  good vs. bad, god vs. devil.  Jacob wants people to exercise free will and deal with it..but blackie dude is the one who tells them to do something bad.  Take young kate stealing..maybe it was blackie whispering in her ear so to speak, saying steal it! and we only see jacob, fixing the problem.  you know the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other...
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: vickilynn on May 17, 2009, 10:27:13 AM
While reading about the "War in Heaven" on Wiki, I came upon a link for the LDS church and their belief that two of the strongest beings in Heaven were vying for leadership of a new planet that would be colonized with humans. (This is me paraphrasing.) One contender said that the only way humans would reach their god-like status was to "force" them to choose the right path back (Lucifer) because that would be the only way to overcome their human propensity towards war and greed etc. The other contender (Michael, Jesus) said that it would only mean something to each individual if they chose the right path on their own, even if it meant only a few people would find their way back to "God."

Now, I don't think the writer's of Lost would ever subscribe to one belief system/story line (this is evident by the fact that there are many differing culture and religious references), but I think those two people might be a metaphor for the progression of human-kind...either we're so carnal that only forcing us to comply and "be good" is the only way to evolve...or progress towards being a more positive being can only "count" if it is made by a person's free will.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Staggerlee on May 17, 2009, 11:14:17 AM
Vicky, that is some fab research there.

Whether or not they took direct inspiration from that story* of not (most likely not, but one never knows) that story illustrates quite well a possibility here, the dichotomy of Lost.

You, mon ami, get the first post-season Irish Pop Tart!!!!!





*someone of course will take it the completely wrong way and scream "Are they trying to push a LDS agenda!!!????!!!"


Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: vickilynn on May 17, 2009, 11:29:40 AM
Vicky, that is some fab research there.

Whether or not they took direct inspiration from that story* of not (most likely not, but one never knows) that story illustrates quite well a possibility here, the dichotomy of Lost.

You, mon ami, get the first post-season Irish Pop Tart!!!!!





*someone of course will take it the completely wrong way and scream "Are they trying to push a LDS agenda!!!????!!!"



Thanks, Stagger!  ;D

Of course I don't think the Lost writers are pushing any religion/belief, it's a total mash-up. It just made sense to me that these might be the parameters of Jacob/other person's "game" they're playing.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: simeean on May 17, 2009, 02:57:07 PM
maybe everyone is over complicating it.  good vs. bad, god vs. devil.  Jacob wants people to exercise free will and deal with it..but blackie dude is the one who tells them to do something bad.  Take young kate stealing..maybe it was blackie whispering in her ear so to speak, saying steal it! and we only see jacob, fixing the problem.  you know the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other...

I was thinking this too, we've only just met Jacob, maybe the next season will show us the flashbacks where #2 went to visit everyone...
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: snoopafly on May 17, 2009, 03:35:51 PM
first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: simeean on May 17, 2009, 03:59:36 PM
first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.

I do think that's what each one is representing, but the rules don't quite work.... If each has to play by the other's rules, then there's no way Jacob could ever "win", unless #2 was destined to die, in which case there would be no game to begin with.... Though that would pretty much guarantee that he DOES win, by dying and proving his free will argument..... Also, if #2 were to find this as the loophole, then he'd basically be proving himself wrong.... Actually, now I kind of like this idea, it ties my brain in knots, and that's always fun...  ;D
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: snoopafly on May 18, 2009, 01:22:56 AM
yeah..it definitely does twist your brain in knots. Especially when analyzing the scene when Jakob talks to Ben about having a choice of whether or not he needs to kill him or not. Anti Jakob believes in fate and I'm sure in his mind he believes that eventually everything Jakob has put into place will become corrupted and end, as he alluded to in the opening scene. But at the same time it seemed to me that he wanted Ben to act of his own accord, almost as if he was sticking it to Jakob even further, because Ben DOES act on this free will that Jakob loves so much, and he uses it to kill Jakob. Yet Jakob's reaction is as if he accepted his fate and knew that Ben was going to attack him, even after his attempt at enlightening Ben on his power of choice.

That's why I felt that they each had to respect one another's ideologies in this game they are playing.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: BobBX542 on May 18, 2009, 01:41:22 PM
While reading about the "War in Heaven" on Wiki, I came upon a link for the LDS church and their belief that two of the strongest beings in Heaven were vying for leadership of a new planet that would be colonized with humans. (This is me paraphrasing.) One contender said that the only way humans would reach their god-like status was to "force" them to choose the right path back (Lucifer) because that would be the only way to overcome their human propensity towards war and greed etc. The other contender (Michael, Jesus) said that it would only mean something to each individual if they chose the right path on their own, even if it meant only a few people would find their way back to "God."

Now, I don't think the writer's of Lost would ever subscribe to one belief system/story line (this is evident by the fact that there are many differing culture and religious references), but I think those two people might be a metaphor for the progression of human-kind...either we're so carnal that only forcing us to comply and "be good" is the only way to evolve...or progress towards being a more positive being can only "count" if it is made by a person's free will.

Well, seeing as how all religions steal from some other form of religion to fit their needs, maybe they are telling that story, but they are telling the ORIGINAL story.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: Wishbone on May 18, 2009, 02:16:35 PM
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

OK, I got a bit muddled reading all the theories here but I think I get the gist - so - if #2 has taken on dead peoples forms maybe this is why Jacob told Hurley he was blessed because he knew that meant Hurley was one of the good guys so to speak. In being able to see and speak to dead people he couldn't be fooled by #2 like other people, he would see through it and follow his own feelings rather than be led by someone. Fake-Locke had everyone else fooled that he was real Locke, even Richard, and it has been said many times before that Hurley is special.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: WhatThe on May 18, 2009, 02:16:43 PM
I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself. 

So at the beginning of the episode when they showed Jacob and The Guy In Black sitting alone on the beach talking, did Jacob have "protectors" for him to get past? Seems like there was nobody at all to keep Jacob from being killed. You'd also have to assume that all the years prior to that moment Jacob was just as easily accessible and without "protectors". Yet they still talked about a "loophole" back then. So would a method to get past his protectors really be part of the loophole still?

Also, are we assuming that The Guy In Black was not allowed to kill Jacob? If so, why not?

Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: WhatThe on May 18, 2009, 02:25:35 PM
first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

The only problems I would have with this theory is that Ben was literally told to do whatever Locke told him to do, thus basically eliminating free will. The other is something that a lot of others have brought up: "fake" Locke needing to insert himself into a dead body. I think The Guy In Black did inhabit Locke's body, but not because it was part of the rules that he had to follow in order to kill Jacob. It was just the means in which he chose to carry out his plan.


Quote
On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.

Good question lol
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: cookieshoes on May 18, 2009, 03:57:40 PM
I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself. 

So at the beginning of the episode when they showed Jacob and The Guy In Black sitting alone on the beach talking, did Jacob have "protectors" for him to get past? Seems like there was nobody at all to keep Jacob from being killed. You'd also have to assume that all the years prior to that moment Jacob was just as easily accessible and without "protectors". Yet they still talked about a "loophole" back then. So would a method to get past his protectors really be part of the loophole still?

Also, are we assuming that The Guy In Black was not allowed to kill Jacob? If so, why not?



Yes, I think that the most basic fact in the relationship between Jacob and his Nemesis is that they can't personally kill each other. Either from some "cosmic inability" to do so, or from simple ying/yang due to having equal-but-opposite powers. Whatever it is, it's the rules.

I'm inclined to think that a big part of this hinges on a notion that the relationship between Jacob and his Nemesis is a case of "opposites".  From the color of their hair, to where they live, to their powers, to how they think, etc.  They need humans as proxies to do things to the other, so, whereas Jacob can use the living, his Nemesis has to use the dead. Further to this, perhaps it would also make sense that Jacob's Nemesis may want to kill Jacob, but Jacob has no desire to kill his Nemesis.

So, the concept of Jacob needing protectors still holds, even though there has yet to be any of the 815ers, or even the crew from the Black Rock on the island yet.  Because notice that Jacob's Nemesis mentioned that "it always ends the same way". And then he described how the humans come, they destroy, they corrupt, etc.  So, obviously the "game" has been going on forever (or who knows how long). To which, we can assume that Jacob has had many other people on the island before, probably including the Egyptians who built the statue, and who knows how many other cycles of humans who have come to the island, left it, or died there.  When the Black Rock appeared on the horizon, the comments by Jacob's Nemesis suggest that a new cycle was beginning. 

And so, with each new cycle of humans that comes, Jacob's Nemesis tries to use them to kill Jacob.  The missing piece here (among many other missing pieces) is that we don't entirely know what purpose Jacob has for bringing humans to the island in the first place.
 


Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: BobBX542 on May 18, 2009, 04:00:28 PM
I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself. 

So at the beginning of the episode when they showed Jacob and The Guy In Black sitting alone on the beach talking, did Jacob have "protectors" for him to get past? Seems like there was nobody at all to keep Jacob from being killed. You'd also have to assume that all the years prior to that moment Jacob was just as easily accessible and without "protectors". Yet they still talked about a "loophole" back then. So would a method to get past his protectors really be part of the loophole still?

Also, are we assuming that The Guy In Black was not allowed to kill Jacob? If so, why not?



As far as protectors go, I'm not so sure, but I think it was strongly implied that Man 2 for whatever reason can not kill him, or else he would have right there. There was a knife and a fire right there.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: MangoBingo on February 04, 2010, 07:14:07 PM
I like it, now work in how smokey fits in and why smokey told ben to listen to locke?

smokey and the fake locke are the same "person"
they / he manipulated Ben to kill Jacob


Amazing!  :o

Love digging through these old threads to see whom was right or wrong with their theories.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: RM on February 05, 2010, 06:25:44 PM
In "LA X", UnLocke says to Ben, "I didn't make you do anything."  So even UnLocke seems to actually believe in Free Will.  It's just that his strategy in the "game" with Jacob is to use ordinary people's belief in "fate" and "destiny" against them in order to get them to choose to do what he wants them do.  As Christian, he told the real Locke in the well that he couldn't help him directly.

So I think the show seems to be on the side that everyone has Free Will, but that for the most part, people's nature means that what's supposed to happen, will happen -- when they went back and had a chance to reset things, almost everything they tried to change didn't take.  Somehow this one act of going through with Daniel's bomb detonation plan "worked" (according to dead Juliet).
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: LostinLock on February 07, 2010, 05:07:05 PM
yeah they have a choice but MIB manipulated Ben he goaded Ben and reminded him that Jacob ignored him all that time.  He does it when he is sitting on the beach, he sit along side him and gives him all the reason in the world why he should have no issue killing Jacob.

So after Ben spews forth his little you ignored me blah blah stuff Jacob does answer in good form what about you?  So it just pushes Ben over the deep end as he is so easily pushed and committs the murder.   

I know what the point is but not sure if Ben in this instance wasn't pushed by both of these guys to get the real game rolling
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: lostieloo on February 08, 2010, 10:30:00 AM
It just seems kinda strange that Jacob could be killed in the first place, being that it seemed like he was immortal and all.  Couldn't a tree falling on him or a rogue seagull have done him in at some point?
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: BobBX542 on February 08, 2010, 11:50:45 AM
It just seems kinda strange that Jacob could be killed in the first place, being that it seemed like he was immortal and all.  Couldn't a tree falling on him or a rogue seagull have done him in at some point?

It could be that he has to be murdered. I know that seems weird, but I think in order to dispell any logic arguements about trees falling on him, that may have to be it. BUT, I have no idea. I'm just shooting from the hip.
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: lostieloo on February 08, 2010, 12:34:02 PM
It just seems kinda strange that Jacob could be killed in the first place, being that it seemed like he was immortal and all.  Couldn't a tree falling on him or a rogue seagull have done him in at some point?

It could be that he has to be murdered. I know that seems weird, but I think in order to dispell any logic arguements about trees falling on him, that may have to be it. BUT, I have no idea. I'm just shooting from the hip.

I'll buy that
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: BobBX542 on February 08, 2010, 12:45:24 PM
It just seems kinda strange that Jacob could be killed in the first place, being that it seemed like he was immortal and all.  Couldn't a tree falling on him or a rogue seagull have done him in at some point?

It could be that he has to be murdered. I know that seems weird, but I think in order to dispell any logic arguements about trees falling on him, that may have to be it. BUT, I have no idea. I'm just shooting from the hip.

I'll buy that

Thanks, I appreciate it. LOL, Ooooh, I know what would make it sound more believeable, that he has to be "sacrificed by a believer" in order to truly die. Damn, why couldn't I think of that earlier??
Title: Re: You found your loophole
Post by: lostieloo on February 08, 2010, 01:09:26 PM
Oooo, keep the thoughts coming!   :o