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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x15 => Topic started by: on the island on May 07, 2009, 01:42:30 PM

Title: The tunnels
Post by: on the island on May 07, 2009, 01:42:30 PM
Did Jack, Richard, Ellie and Sayid go into the same tunnel system that was under the Temple?

(http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season5/5x15/normal_leader-497.jpg)

Click to view larger image: http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=129846&fullsize=1

(http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season5/5x15/normal_leader-501.jpg)

Click to view larger image: http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=129850&fullsize=1

This tunnel system goes under the barracks according to Ellie.  Is this the same system that connects the Dharma stations?  Seems like these were around long before Dharma.  If Dharma knew about them then how did they not know they go under the fence?
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Novashannon on May 07, 2009, 01:54:40 PM
I don't think Dharma knew about them.  BEn found out when he was healed.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: hyperform on May 07, 2009, 01:56:06 PM
I don't think Dharma knew about them.  BEn found out when he was healed.
well, Dharma had to dig foundations for those houses, so they must have known something.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 07, 2009, 02:01:46 PM
Plus, Smokey's toilet-phone was right under Ben's house.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: hyperform on May 07, 2009, 02:02:46 PM
Plus, Smokey's toilet-phone was right under Ben's house.
exactly!

lol, toilet phone.....
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Novashannon on May 07, 2009, 02:03:20 PM
The houses they built did not look like the type to have deep foundations.  Many cities around the world have been built on lost tunnels, with noone the wiser till recently.  (See Cities fo the Underworld on Discovery or history channel).
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 03:17:27 PM
I was wondering too if the tunnels go all around the island. And if thats how they got Jughead in and will get Jughead out.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Oldsie on May 07, 2009, 04:20:42 PM
well these tunnels explain how ethan and other 'others' appeared to seemingly pop up out from the ground at times in season one...
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 07, 2009, 04:22:54 PM
well these tunnels explain how ethan and other 'others' appeared to seemingly pop up out from the ground at times...

Yeah but on ground level in bens house was the door with heiroglyphics, so they must have seen that.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: fulcigento on May 07, 2009, 04:29:52 PM
Ben's house was formerly Horace's house.  So I'm guessing Dharma knew about the tunnels.  At least the inner circle knew.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Jungle Otter on May 07, 2009, 04:40:19 PM
I was wondering too if the tunnels go all around the island. And if thats how they got Jughead in and will get Jughead out.

I'm thinking the tunnels were what were on the blast door map - perhaps Radzinski found a few of them accidentally. Could be part of the reason he painted the Swan with his brains - smokey got to him.....
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: hyperform on May 07, 2009, 05:02:34 PM
Ben's house was formerly Horace's house.  So I'm guessing Dharma knew about the tunnels.  At least the inner circle knew.
we don't know that for sure............Do we?
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 07, 2009, 05:06:33 PM
Ben's house was formerly Horace's house.  So I'm guessing Dharma knew about the tunnels.  At least the inner circle knew.
we don't know that for sure............Do we?
Not for sure. But whomever built that house certainly knew.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: hyperform on May 07, 2009, 05:07:23 PM
Ben's house was formerly Horace's house.  So I'm guessing Dharma knew about the tunnels.  At least the inner circle knew.
we don't know that for sure............Do we?
Not for sure. But whomever built that house certainly knew.
what if it was a post purge addition?
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: agent on May 07, 2009, 06:00:02 PM

I expected to see the bomb encased in cement like Dan advised - shouldn't the tunnels therefore be radioactive?
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: ButtercupSaiyan on May 07, 2009, 06:08:31 PM
Remember, the main cast is immune to paradoxes, time travel nosebleeds, and radioactivity.  ::)
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Novashannon on May 07, 2009, 06:09:59 PM

what if it was a post purge addition?
That is what I was thinking - although it could be that the DI inner circle found some when  blasting.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: WhatThe on May 07, 2009, 06:48:00 PM
Remember, the main cast is immune to paradoxes, time travel nosebleeds, and radioactivity.  ::)

I don't know if there have been any real paradoxes yet, some of the main cast did indeed get time travel nosebleeds, and there hasn't been any radioactivity for any of them to be effected by (at least not at any length).
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: jodeci on May 07, 2009, 07:12:10 PM
it appears that the tunnels were drawn on the blast door map.   and i vaguely remember kelvin talking about the tunnels as he was adding to the map.
here's a picture

http://www.lost4815162342.com/blastmap/
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: nomteticus on May 07, 2009, 07:24:23 PM
Well, it certainly explains why Richard said "your fence can't keep us away" (approx. quote). They probably have another exit in the Dharma camp. I wonder why they needed Ben for the Purge. They could have done it without him.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: on the island on May 08, 2009, 09:36:24 AM
Well, it certainly explains why Richard said "your fence can't keep us away" (approx. quote). They probably have another exit in the Dharma camp. I wonder why they needed Ben for the Purge. They could have done it without him.

I don't think they needed him for the purge.  It was a test - similiar to Locke killing his father in order to be the leader.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: opgelost on May 08, 2009, 09:40:53 AM
No, the test was killing baby Alex.
Killing his father was something he wanted to do.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: on the island on May 08, 2009, 09:45:29 AM
it appears that the tunnels were drawn on the blast door map.   and i vaguely remember kelvin talking about the tunnels as he was adding to the map.
here's a picture

http://www.lost4815162342.com/blastmap/

I was looking at the map yesterday.  I have to question if Radzinsky really created it.  There are several things that we now know he should have known ("alleged location of the flame", "possible location of zoological research facility").  Unless these things aren't built yet, and he gets stuck in the Swan by choice or by banishment soon, he would have to know about them.  The polar bear expirement was already mentioned by Dr. Chang.

Regarding the tunnels, it would be helpful to know where the barracks are in relation to the map.  I think there may be 2 tunnel systems - one by Dharma to connect the stations and one that have been around a while that Richard, Jack, Ellie and Sayid are in.  The blue tunnel sytsem in the map seems too structured to be made by the Others - much more like Dharma.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: on the island on May 08, 2009, 09:47:29 AM
No, the test was killing baby Alex.
Killing his father was something he wanted to do.

He didn't kill Alex, though, and I though that happened after the purge.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: BobBX542 on May 08, 2009, 11:59:23 AM
The houses they built did not look like the type to have deep foundations.  Many cities around the world have been built on lost tunnels, with noone the wiser till recently.  (See Cities fo the Underworld on Discovery or history channel).

Great Show, even though the host gets alittle annoying. didn't they talk about how there was a whole other city underneath New York, or San Fransisco or something?? Just found it in the last few decades.


it appears that the tunnels were drawn on the blast door map.   and i vaguely remember kelvin talking about the tunnels as he was adding to the map.
here's a picture

http://www.lost4815162342.com/blastmap/

Just went over the transcript, and there was no mention of tunnels by Kelvin. but when you look at the blast door map, you're right, it deffinitely looks like those lines are the tunnels. Some of them cross a river (or two??) so it seems to make sense that one of those are where Jack and all of them jumped in the water.


I was looking at the map yesterday.  I have to question if Radzinsky really created it.  There are several things that we now know he should have known ("alleged location of the flame", "possible location of zoological research facility").  Unless these things aren't built yet, and he gets stuck in the Swan by choice or by banishment soon, he would have to know about them.  The polar bear expirement was already mentioned by Dr. Chang.

Regarding the tunnels, it would be helpful to know where the barracks are in relation to the map.  I think there may be 2 tunnel systems - one by Dharma to connect the stations and one that have been around a while that Richard, Jack, Ellie and Sayid are in.  The blue tunnel sytsem in the map seems too structured to be made by the Others - much more like Dharma.

Radzinsky may have created it, but things like the unknown location of the flame may have been an adition by Kelvin. As far as the tunnels, it is very possible that they were dug by an ancient civilization. Look at how precise some pyramids and other temples are all across the globe from all through out time. The ancient Mayans have a temple (I forget where, and the name, sorry) that was built thousands of years ago, but to this day, twice a year, on the spring and fall equinox, the shadow of the temple lines up with the stairwell to make it look like the scales of a giant lizard. They even had the presence of mind to carve a big lizard head at the end of the stairs. So it is very possible.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: opgelost on May 08, 2009, 02:00:42 PM
No, the test was killing baby Alex.
Killing his father was something he wanted to do.

He didn't kill Alex, though, and I though that happened after the purge.

I'm only saying that it is not a test to make Ben kill his father, because he hated his father and it was easy for him to do.
A test should be something difficult to do and if the island ever tested him it was with Alex.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Novashannon on May 08, 2009, 02:07:23 PM
No, the test was killing baby Alex.
Killing his father was something he wanted to do.

He didn't kill Alex, though, and I though that happened after the purge.

I'm only saying that it is not a test to make Ben kill his father, because he hated his father and it was easy for him to do.
A test should be something difficult to do and if the island ever tested him it was with Alex.

I agree.  He killed his father becasue he wanted to. 
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: BobBX542 on May 08, 2009, 03:29:56 PM
No, the test was killing baby Alex.
Killing his father was something he wanted to do.

He didn't kill Alex, though, and I though that happened after the purge.

I'm only saying that it is not a test to make Ben kill his father, because he hated his father and it was easy for him to do.
A test should be something difficult to do and if the island ever tested him it was with Alex.

I agree.  He killed his father becasue he wanted to. 

I think the real question should be if he would have killed him without the idea of the purge. That I think is what it comes down to. I don't think he would have.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: toadsage on May 08, 2009, 04:25:42 PM
i too was puzzeled by the writing on the map. if radz created it, and he was in the "circle of trust" why did he not know the location of the tempest, or the orchid? he was building it for petes sake! i now think the map was created by kelvin from what he learned from radz. since kelvin did not arrive on the island til after the first gulf war, that puts him on island right before or after the purge. maybe before radz pulled a kurt cobain he told kelvin a bunch of stuff about the d.i.'s other stations and kelvin made the map to try and find them.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 11:24:44 AM
i too was puzzeled by the writing on the map. if radz created it, and he was in the "circle of trust" why did he not know the location of the tempest, or the orchid? he was building it for petes sake! i now think the map was created by kelvin from what he learned from radz. since kelvin did not arrive on the island til after the first gulf war, that puts him on island right before or after the purge. maybe before radz pulled a kurt cobain he told kelvin a bunch of stuff about the d.i.'s other stations and kelvin made the map to try and find them.

Now obviously Kelvin could have been lying, but he did say that Radzinsky had painted some of the map when he and Desmond were talking about it.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2009, 11:40:16 AM
If Radzinsky did build the Swan then he would know how to trigger the blast door to close and open with his Mcgyver wirering skills.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 12:57:19 PM
If Radzinsky did build the Swan then he would know how to trigger the blast door to close and open with his Mcgyver wirering skills.

I think that's what Kelvin was saying.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: mrose4243 on May 12, 2009, 09:25:32 PM
I also looked at the blast door map on Lostpedia yesterday and noticed what looked like tunnels between the Dharma stations. 

But what stood out to me was that the notations on the map were enlarged and some of them were in LATIN!

Makes me think that Radzinsky may have drawn the original map, but the Others were adding stuff to it, as they discovered what the Dharma Initiative built on the island?

Who else speaks Latin but Others?
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: Blitz Wing on May 13, 2009, 05:17:19 AM
I'm only saying that it is not a test to make Ben kill his father, because he hated his father and it was easy for him to do.
A test should be something difficult to do and if the island ever tested him it was with Alex.

Didn't they tell Locke to kill his dad, because he can't move on with his dad complex in the way? So maybe they told Ben he had to kill his dad so Ben could move on from his Dad Complex.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: opgelost on May 13, 2009, 06:19:14 AM
Ben told Locke to kill his dad, because he knew that Locke wasn't able to do it.
Nobody else told him.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: LostinLock on May 13, 2009, 06:28:53 AM
Gee I thought Ben told John to kill his father as a test/sacrafice.

hmm
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 10:53:05 AM
Ben told Locke to kill his dad, because he knew that Locke wasn't able to do it.
Nobody else told him.

Gee I thought Ben told John to kill his father as a test/sacrafice.

hmm

It's possible that both of you are right. Perhaps, for whatever reason, sacrificing your father is something you have to do if you wish to be the leader of the island, but Ben made a point to tell Locke about it in front of everyone because he knew that Locke would back off from the task, and that way he would look foolish in front of the others, his soon to be people.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: LostinLock on May 17, 2009, 09:53:14 PM
It was more to ridicule him than anything else.  I say this because the purge happened after Locke banished Widmore was banished and at that time we can assume that Ben was in charge.  Ellie, who knows whee she was.

Missing chunks of information again.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: BobBX542 on May 18, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
It was more to ridicule him than anything else.  I say this because the purge happened after Locke banished Widmore was banished and at that time we can assume that Ben was in charge.  Ellie, who knows whee she was.

Missing chunks of information again.

Totally so he could ridicule him.
Title: Re: The tunnels
Post by: LostinLock on May 18, 2009, 02:50:52 PM
Ben is so self centered that he misses really what is going on.  We find him killing off Widmores folks when the really "enemy" not the right word, but perhaps challenge will not be with Charles in the end but with someone else