Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x15 => Topic started by: BadRobot64 on May 07, 2009, 12:52:55 AM

Title: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BadRobot64 on May 07, 2009, 12:52:55 AM
James Ford, Jim LaFleur, Jim, Mr Nickname himself.... Sawyer has returned! tonight was definately a good SAWYER episode as well as alot of them... but nicknames and quip lines we will see the decrowning of LaFluer and the rebirth of Sawyer til the season 6 finale...
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 07, 2009, 01:01:25 AM
Sawyer was pretty awesome in this episode, I just wish Horace would have sacked up and told Stu to GTFO!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BadRobot64 on May 07, 2009, 01:06:51 AM
Sawyer was pretty awesome in this episode, I just wish Horace would have sacked up and told Stu to GTFO!

true dat
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Madam P on May 07, 2009, 08:47:21 AM
I was completely disappointed that Sawyer got into the sub and LEFT Hurley and everyone behind!  That doesn't seem like the Sawyer I know and love! 

The only thing I could think was that maybe he felt "Heck, I already jumped out of a helicopter once for them and saved their a***s!  It's not my fault they came back!  It's my turn to get out of Dodge!"  But still...  he likes Hugo!  I can't believe he left him.

Hurley is going to be so reproachful.  "Dude, I never thought you'd leave us..."    :(
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 09:16:53 AM
I think he was only thinking of Juliet's saftey though. He's got her back remember?
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: vickilynn on May 07, 2009, 09:43:24 AM
I think he was only thinking of Juliet's saftey though. He's got her back remember?

Exactly. He won't forget Kate, just like any of us who have had an intense relationship in the past doesn't forget, but he truly loves Juliet (yes, yes, yes...don't argue it!) and was willing to give it all up for her and for himself...some real happiness is what Sawyer deserves. With so many variables (losties) running around who knows where in time, he realized he couldn't control the outcome anyway.

Preview spoiler:

Plus, we know they're off the sub...maybe he has a plan to get off all along anyway?
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 07, 2009, 09:45:22 AM
As Sawyer lowered himself into the sub I thought "How could he just abandon Hurley like that?"  Same old James. No one has really changed.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 09:46:14 AM
Like I said though, he did it for Juliet.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: bfth on May 07, 2009, 09:49:16 AM
Was I the only one bummed when Kate got on the sub too?  Crap, Sawyer & Juliet were having a moment and then she comes along?  Bummer!  (and boy was J pissed about it too!)
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: vickilynn on May 07, 2009, 09:51:59 AM
Was I the only one bummed when Kate got on the sub too?  Crap, Sawyer & Juliet were having a moment and then she comes along?  Bummer!  (and boy was J pissed about it too!)

I dislike Kate more and more...she is always such a killjoy. I thought Sawyer looked a bit perturbed also.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 09:53:58 AM
Yeah Kate is the most seflish person on the show. She gets all pissy cause Jack is ready to sacrifice their relationship and maybe their present lives to ensure that their plane lands in the future.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 07, 2009, 10:02:38 AM
Yeah Kate is the most seflish person on the show. She gets all pissy cause Jack is ready to sacrifice their relationship and maybe their present lives to ensure that their plane lands in the future.

I am starting to hate her too, but wouldn't you be pissy if Jack wanted to make everything right wich means you go to jail for 1st degree murder?
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 10:08:00 AM
Yeah Kate is the most seflish person on the show. She gets all pissy cause Jack is ready to sacrifice their relationship and maybe their present lives to ensure that their plane lands in the future.

I am starting to hate her too, but wouldn't you be pissy if Jack wanted to make everything right wich means you go to jail for 1st degree murder?
I guess. But if that happens, everyone else is saved. Jack is ready to sacrifice, but she isn't.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Asmodean on May 07, 2009, 11:04:07 AM
Kate always runs away or leaves.  Not a big leap for the character, just consistent.

Sawyer's been playing house for 3 years and has had a pretty good thing going.  Then they show up.
He's making plans with Jules about how they'll be free once back home.  Then she shows up.
He's surviving the best way he can.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: jamesl on May 07, 2009, 11:06:00 AM
I guess. But if that happens, everyone else is saved. Jack is ready to sacrifice, but she isn't.

niether is Sawyer

in the previews for next week we see Sawyer on the island;
how can this be ? he's on the sub and he and Juliette left ?
I think Kate tells them what Jack is going to do; Sawyer says, "no way"
Sawyer is not going to give up the woman he loves (Juliette, in case you're wondering, ha ha)
he in love, he's happy, he's talking about freedom, his life as a con man is over, the burder he's had all is life has been lifted

he's going to buy microsoft stock, bet the cowboys in superbowl '78, be rich, marry Juliette and live happily ever after ;

but now Jack wants to screw all that up

Sawyer is going to take over the sub and make them take him back to the island so he can stop Jack, even if it means killing him
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: razzle-dazzle on May 07, 2009, 12:12:56 PM
Sawyer was great until Kate showed up. Then he reverted back to the whole "OMG, it's Freckles. I'm so like in love her her, like I've got to have her. OMG"
Sawyer is at his best as the wise cracking conman with a soft heart.

Now, I'm so over Kate and Sawyer. I'm looking forward to the new bromance: Jack and Locke!  ;) Two soulmates, separated by 30 years in time!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 07, 2009, 02:30:41 PM
I was so heart broken when the Other Red-shirt had the gun pointed at Kate, and then you hear the shot, and she jolts, and looks down, but isn't dead. God she's getting up on the level of hate I had for Michael, and Nikki/Paulo.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: ButtercupSaiyan on May 07, 2009, 06:09:39 PM
Don't forget Charlotte .... I hate her. I was glad when she died, she has contributed nothing besides a minor plot point as Daniel's 2nd love interest in his short-lived life.

Oh, and Ben.

But I can't hate Sawyer.  I think it's funny where you see him softening up to Kate, we all see his love and resolution for Juliet hardening with each twist and turn.  The majority definitely think that Sawyer is still loyal to Juliet.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: opgelost on May 07, 2009, 06:18:09 PM
There are characters I like a lot and some that I like less,
but I never hated one of them.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Novashannon on May 07, 2009, 06:20:30 PM
I guess. But if that happens, everyone else is saved. Jack is ready to sacrifice, but she isn't.

niether is Sawyer

in the previews for next week we see Sawyer on the island;
how can this be ? he's on the sub and he and Juliette left ?
I think Kate tells them what Jack is going to do; Sawyer says, "no way"
Sawyer is not going to give up the woman he loves (Juliette, in case you're wondering, ha ha)
he in love, he's happy, he's talking about freedom, his life as a con man is over, the burder he's had all is life has been lifted

he's going to buy microsoft stock, bet the cowboys in superbowl '78, be rich, marry Juliette and live happily ever after ;

but now Jack wants to screw all that up

Sawyer is going to take over the sub and make them take him back to the island so he can stop Jack, even if it means killing him

Thank you.  that is what I have been saying!  Why is everyone down on Kate when she is no worse than any of the others!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: nomteticus on May 07, 2009, 07:46:25 PM
It's probably safe to say that Kate has actually done a lot of good for the Sawyer and Juliet relationship. Kate tells them that Jack is about to undo everything. That means James would never kill Cooper and never meet Juliet. He'd basically be the same old conman. Juliet, on the other hand, would a) still be in USA with her sister probably dying or b) still be in the Others camp. That would suck. Kate would be in prison. So naturally they all want to stop Jack and Sayid, two people who wouldn't have that much to loose if 815 never happened (heck, Sayid would actually be happy to find Nadia alive). On a side note, maybe Jack is being the selfish one, he only wants to fix things so he can fix his broken ego.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 08, 2009, 11:31:41 AM
Wow, some of us are really not on the same wavelength here. Some think Jack and Sayid are the selfish ones? Cause they're trying to save all the people that died since they crashed on the island? I don't see it that way. I'm not saying Sawyer is selfish though. I truely think the only reason Sawyer cut that deal was because he wanted to save Juliet and be free of all this turmoil and just be happy with her somewhere. He didn't want anyone to screw up the Dharma thing they had going because he had a purpose there and he was happy with Juliet. When his purpose there was taken away, he only thought of protecting Juliet.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 08, 2009, 01:29:17 PM
Don't forget Charlotte .... I hate her. I was glad when she died, she has contributed nothing besides a minor plot point as Daniel's 2nd love interest in his short-lived life.

I wish I could forget Charlotte.

Wow, some of us are really not on the same wavelength here. Some think Jack and Sayid are the selfish ones? Cause they're trying to save all the people that died since they crashed on the island? I don't see it that way. I'm not saying Sawyer is selfish though. I truely think the only reason Sawyer cut that deal was because he wanted to save Juliet and be free of all this turmoil and just be happy with her somewhere. He didn't want anyone to screw up the Dharma thing they had going because he had a purpose there and he was happy with Juliet. When his purpose there was taken away, he only thought of protecting Juliet.

I personally think that Jack's purpose is mainly to make sure that none of this happens. Not really for any particular reason other than it shouldn't have happened, so he wants to fix it.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: MangoBingo on May 08, 2009, 08:26:31 PM
I loved Kate's anti-war speech.  :)
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: LostGirlDeb on May 09, 2009, 03:35:26 PM
It's probably safe to say that Kate has actually done a lot of good for the Sawyer and Juliet relationship. Kate tells them that Jack is about to undo everything. That means James would never kill Cooper and never meet Juliet. He'd basically be the same old conman. Juliet, on the other hand, would a) still be in USA with her sister probably dying or b) still be in the Others camp. That would suck. Kate would be in prison. So naturally they all want to stop Jack and Sayid, two people who wouldn't have that much to loose if 815 never happened (heck, Sayid would actually be happy to find Nadia alive). On a side note, maybe Jack is being the selfish one, he only wants to fix things so he can fix his broken ego.

I agree 100% with this post.  Jack is the only one that is NOT sacrificing anything if he succeeds and I am so glad that he will not succeed
(I mean he better not)  He is the only one that has nothing to loose.  and how can he sit there and tell Kate that it was all a nightmare?  Just when I was starting to like him a gain he goes and says something stupid like that.
And for the record nobody can be as hated as Nikki and Paulo & Michael IMO :P
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: james_sawyer on May 09, 2009, 07:29:09 PM
season 1 : sawyer - kate -jack
season 2 : sawyer -anna lucia-kate ,kate-jack
season 3 : sawyer-kate-jack-julliette
season 4 : sawyer -kate -jack,-jullite-ben n that guy what was his name that married man jullitte is with ??
season 5 :sawyer-jullitte, jack -kate -roger ??( thank godness this didnt go any more further )   

lets  just  say love is complicated

but if jack really does succeed in his mission to change ..no love stories between anyone??
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 10:15:17 AM
If Jack does succeed in changing things. Their relationships will still have happened. What Kate doesn't see is that nothing will be lost. Her present self will continue on; it is only her future self that will be affected. Let's say they are able to change something in 1977 but are still stuck there. Or even ebtter, they go back in time again even earlier. The Jack and Kate we know right now will still have all their memories. It is the future versions of themselves (the ones who will eventually get on 815) who will not experience the crash. And lets not forget about the universe, destiny, all that stuff. If something is changed, then 815 no longer "needs" to crash. The passengers are no longer needed on the island. So, destiny or the universe, might deal Kate a whole new hand of cards. One in which her father is not an abussive drunk. Thus, she doesn't have to kill. Thus, she doesn't go to jail. How about them apples?
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: vickilynn on May 12, 2009, 10:52:02 AM
If Jack does succeed in changing things. Their relationships will still have happened. What Kate doesn't see is that nothing will be lost. Her present self will continue on; it is only her future self that will be affected. Let's say they are able to change something in 1977 but are still stuck there. Or even ebtter, they go back in time again even earlier. The Jack and Kate we know right now will still have all their memories. It is the future versions of themselves (the ones who will eventually get on 815) who will not experience the crash. And lets not forget about the universe, destiny, all that stuff. If something is changed, then 815 no longer "needs" to crash. The passengers are no longer needed on the island. So, destiny or the universe, might deal Kate a whole new hand of cards. One in which her father is not an abussive drunk. Thus, she doesn't have to kill. Thus, she doesn't go to jail. How about them apples?

Ok...say they do manage to change things so that 815 doesn't have to crash...well, it DID crash or else they wouldn't be back there in the past, right? Can't the past only change if one of the original variables makes the change?

Another thing I'm confused about: say they do manage to change things. You say the losties who did crash and went back into the past will still remember each other, but which version of those losties is getting on the plane? The ones who have crashed, have gone back and changed things, will get on the plane as individuals and not crash so they will get off the plane at LAX and go their separate ways? Or, do they get on the plane knowing each other...(like some of them are friends, lovers, maybe even married now)? Will Charlie be getting on the plane also?  :(
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 11:17:43 AM
Its hard to say right now and I'm only trying to run with thoughts. We still don't know if they can change anyhting. But it is being suggested that they might be able to. If they can and do, I'd say the versions of the losties that crashed, when back in time, changed something will retain their memories and relationships. But if they stay in the past (or go further back) then their future selves may not have to go through everything they went through. Jack's dad might quit drinking. Sawyer's mom may never have an affair. Kate's dad is a stand up guy. Does anyone see what I'm trying to get at? The losties we know will remain the same in a different time. But then the 2004 versions of themselves will have completely different lives as destiny or the universe is not trying to get them to the island.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2009, 11:37:40 AM
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: vickilynn on May 12, 2009, 11:38:24 AM
Its hard to say right now and I'm only trying to run with thoughts. We still don't know if they can change anyhting. But it is being suggested that they might be able to. If they can and do, I'd say the versions of the losties that crashed, when back in time, changed something will retain their memories and relationships. But if they stay in the past (or go further back) then their future selves may not have to go through everything they went through. Jack's dad might quit drinking. Sawyer's mom may never have an affair. Kate's dad is a stand up guy. Does anyone see what I'm trying to get at? The losties we know will remain the same in a different time. But then the 2004 versions of themselves will have completely different lives as destiny or the universe is not trying to get them to the island.

Yes, that makes sense...just weird trying to come to terms with two versions of the same character running around.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 11:39:29 AM
You saw Star Trek this weekend didn't you? :)
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 11:45:40 AM
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.
I don't see how they are the same personally. If you kill your grandfather then yes, you effectively deny any existence of yourself and that doesn't jive. But the lives of the people who crashed on 815 were played out in a way that would always lead them to the island. The universe was manipulating events to unfold so they would all be lead to be on that plane that day. For some purpose. For some reason other than coincidence. So if they're "mission" is fulfilled... why would the island need them to crash again? Get used to the fact that there are two of the same person alive. We saw it with Miles. It can and has happened on the show. Deal with it.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 12:55:22 PM
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.

But you're not taking into consideration the premise that Daniel put out there in "the Variable". It's their present, so they can change things. Basically, any show dealing with Time travel has a set of rules they can use and play with, and on LOST, the idea is that you can go back and change things and affect the future (which happens to be your past). It's just something that you need to take a step back from and let happen.

Think about it this way, if we were to strictly follow all of the previous rules about time travel set up by previous writers, then wouldn't we be judging everything by H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine"?? I don't know if there are other earlier works, sorry.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2009, 01:50:53 PM
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.

But you're not taking into consideration the premise that Daniel put out there in "the Variable". It's their present, so they can change things. Basically, any show dealing with Time travel has a set of rules they can use and play with, and on LOST, the idea is that you can go back and change things and affect the future (which happens to be your past).  It's just something that you need to take a step back from and let happen.

Think about it this way, if we were to strictly follow all of the previous rules about time travel set up by previous writers, then wouldn't we be judging everything by H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine"?? I don't know if there are other earlier works, sorry.

Where and when did this rule get thrown out there? Last I checked Dan called himself a variable and ended up getting shot by his mother like he was supposed to. It happened in her past so it happened in his present, no change there. This may be their present but it is the island's past, and what ever happened, happened.

If they do change things and prevent the swan from building a button, then this requires an alternate timeline to be created. One time line where they crash and do everything we have seen, and one time line where they fly harmlessly over an uncharted island and land in LA.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 02:38:22 PM
It got thrown out in "the Variable". He wasn't saying that he was the only variable, he was saying that all of them are, and because it is their present, they can affect it.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: lovinlost on May 12, 2009, 02:51:55 PM
I was completely disappointed that Sawyer got into the sub and LEFT Hurley and everyone behind!  That doesn't seem like the Sawyer I know and love! 

The only thing I could think was that maybe he felt "Heck, I already jumped out of a helicopter once for them and saved their a***s!  It's not my fault they came back!  It's my turn to get out of Dodge!"  But still...  he likes Hugo!  I can't believe he left him.

Hurley is going to be so reproachful.  "Dude, I never thought you'd leave us..."    :(

I was surprised by this as well but in the days since the show has aired, I believe now that Sawyer has a plan.  Even Hurley said something along the lines of, "Sawyer always has a plan."

Maybe the sub will stop at the underground Hydra station and he'll kick some butt there?  I'm not sure how it will happen, but I hope that he DOES have a plan to help the rest of them.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: lovinlost on May 12, 2009, 02:55:10 PM
I guess. But if that happens, everyone else is saved. Jack is ready to sacrifice, but she isn't.

niether is Sawyer

in the previews for next week we see Sawyer on the island;
how can this be ? he's on the sub and he and Juliette left ?
I think Kate tells them what Jack is going to do; Sawyer says, "no way"
Sawyer is not going to give up the woman he loves (Juliette, in case you're wondering, ha ha)
he in love, he's happy, he's talking about freedom, his life as a con man is over, the burder he's had all is life has been lifted

he's going to buy microsoft stock, bet the cowboys in superbowl '78, be rich, marry Juliette and live happily ever after ;

but now Jack wants to screw all that up

Sawyer is going to take over the sub and make them take him back to the island so he can stop Jack, even if it means killing him


Good one!  I have to agree at least with your reasoning, that Sawyer is going to F-R-E-A-K when Kate tells him what Jack's plan is!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2009, 03:12:17 PM
It got thrown out in "the Variable". He wasn't saying that he was the only variable, he was saying that all of them are, and because it is their present, they can affect it.
Their present is still the island's past, whatever they do has already been done. This means they can not change anything, their freewill lets them decide how it happened/happens.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 03:32:34 PM
It got thrown out in "the Variable". He wasn't saying that he was the only variable, he was saying that all of them are, and because it is their present, they can affect it.
Their present is still the island's past, whatever they do has already been done. This means they can not change anything, their freewill lets them decide how it happened/happens.

That's what Daniel was saying though. Because it is their (Jack, kate, Sawyer, Juliette, etc.) present, they can affect it, and therefore the future. But no one else could because their (Horace, Radzinsky, Phil, etc) present already happened, and THEY did what they did, but Jack and crew are experiencing the past as their present, so they can change things. I think I just repeated myself twice. Hmmmmm, weird. But anyway, you see what I'm saying?? Not that you agree with it, but does it make sense??
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 03:40:19 PM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 04:14:32 PM
Writers_strike, are taking the stance that they could be doing different things this time around but it can still be regarded as "whatever happened happened" from the island's point of view? If you are, I finally get you!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 04:37:16 PM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 04:38:49 PM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 04:50:02 PM
Woohoo! UNDERSTANDING!!! It's a wonderful thing.. lol. I think maybe that's what I thought all along. I am still a believer of WHH, only because I don't want to lose the character development, but if WHH is wrong, then yeah, I agree with you.

Why did that take so much effort for me?  :D gah, my brain's scrambled. Sorry!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 05:19:52 PM
Woohoo! UNDERSTANDING!!! It's a wonderful thing.. lol. I think maybe that's what I thought all along. I am still a believer of WHH, only because I don't want to lose the character development, but if WHH is wrong, then yeah, I agree with you.

Why did that take so much effort for me?  :D gah, my brain's scrambled. Sorry!

Because I was saying it all weird. I kept trying to think of a good example, and there was already one in place.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 12, 2009, 05:31:23 PM
well, I kind of disagree, I think the 2007 that we are seeing with Locke, Sun, Ben and Richard is already the result of what Jack did in 77, he succeeded but not the way he thought.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 05:34:16 PM
I .... I think I might agree with that, because the Risk game on Ben's table keeps popping up in my mind. I'm not sure what it means, but when I read things like what you just said, the Risk game pops up. hmmm.  :-\ Like my brain's trying to tell me something and I don't know what.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 12, 2009, 06:08:26 PM
I .... I think I might agree with that, because the Risk game on Ben's table keeps popping up in my mind. I'm not sure what it means, but when I read things like what you just said, the Risk game pops up. hmmm.  :-\ Like my brain's trying to tell me something and I don't know what.
lol, take your time sweetie  :P
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 07:10:20 PM
Oh. I got it. It means that the 2007 people are still in the "original," unchanged timeline. When Jack & Co change the past, THEN the 2007 people will change... I think. Thanks for being patient. lol
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 12, 2009, 07:51:56 PM
Oh. I got it. It means that the 2007 people are still in the "original," unchanged timeline. When Jack & Co change the past, THEN the 2007 people will change... I think. Thanks for being patient. lol
the complete opposite, but thanks for playing  ;)
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 07:56:09 PM
Then explain the Risk game!  ???
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 12, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
Oh. I got it. It means that the 2007 people are still in the "original," unchanged timeline. When Jack & Co change the past, THEN the 2007 people will change... I think. Thanks for being patient. lol
the complete opposite, but thanks for playing  ;)

I'm with Mrs Alpert on this one.  The Risk game is there to show us that nothing has changed in that 2007 time.  Locke and Ben and the others are in a time where the game of Risk was played by Hurley, Sawyer, and Locke.  How would the Risk game being there prove the opposite?
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 12, 2009, 08:01:55 PM
the Risk game has only been 3 year ago, and would be included in the changed time line, I'm saying that he did change something already, but we don't know it because we have only experienced this "new" timeline. we don't know what the other one was.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 08:04:23 PM
I understand what you're saying, but where's the evidence?
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 12, 2009, 08:10:46 PM
since when do we need evidence to make wild proclamations? ;D
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 12, 2009, 08:12:56 PM
Oh, right. Bob's not here and somebody's gotta wildly proclaim something, cause it's Tuesday, right? lolol
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: hyperform on May 12, 2009, 09:13:49 PM
exactly  ;)
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: LostinLock on May 12, 2009, 09:22:53 PM
Yeah Kate is the most seflish person on the show. She gets all pissy cause Jack is ready to sacrifice their relationship and maybe their present lives to ensure that their plane lands in the future.

I am starting to hate her too, but wouldn't you be pissy if Jack wanted to make everything right wich means you go to jail for 1st degree murder?

What no one started I think Kate should have been shot in the back thread!  OMG this is hysterical.  I am so happy to know I have not been alone in thought about this person.  I understand her attraction to some BUT the character has contributed very little!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 10:44:20 AM
Oh, right. Bob's not here and somebody's gotta wildly proclaim something, cause it's Tuesday, right? lolol

EXCUSE ME?!?!
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 13, 2009, 11:10:50 AM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 11:20:23 AM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.

But that's the point of the scene. It helps to support the theory put forth in "The Variable". The past is always as it was, unless acted upon by one of the variables. If Daniel never would have done that, then obviously Desmond wouldn't have remembered, but BECAUSE Daniel did it at the moment, that's when it entered Desmond's memory.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 13, 2009, 11:30:10 AM
I think some people are getting upset because the writers are not following what they think is proper time travel rules. But we are at the mercy of the writer's idea of what time travel is, what the implications or rules are, and how it affects the future, past, and present. The reality is we have to stop thinking we are right and they are wrong. Cause we're wrong according to them.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 11:39:19 AM
I think some people are getting upset because the writers are not following what they think is proper time travel rules. But we are at the mercy of the writer's idea of what time travel is, what the implications or rules are, and how it affects the future, past, and present. The reality is we have to stop thinking we are right and they are wrong. Cause we're wrong according to them.

We can only be wrong once all the rules have been established, and then go against them. Ever since Daniel "explained" the concept of traveling through time on the island, everyone thought that was it, but then he added other ideas later. I think to myself sometimes about how different some people's posts would be if Daniel would have thrown in the part about the variable when he was explaining about the skipping record.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: opgelost on May 13, 2009, 12:11:13 PM
the Risk game has only been 3 year ago, and would be included in the changed time line, I'm saying that he did change something already, but we don't know it because we have only experienced this "new" timeline. we don't know what the other one was.

That's what I am saying for weeks. Everything we saw is the changed timeline.
Without them in the 70ies there would be no Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, Widmore, Hawking, Ben, Ethan, Richard, Eloise and island
in 2004, no Radzinski in the swan, because everybody would have died in the incident.
They made changes and therefor there is a hadge, there are people who left the island in time, there was a crash etc.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
the Risk game has only been 3 year ago, and would be included in the changed time line, I'm saying that he did change something already, but we don't know it because we have only experienced this "new" timeline. we don't know what the other one was.

That's what I am saying for weeks. Everything we saw is the changed timeline.
Without them in the 70ies there would be no Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, Widmore, Hawking, Ben, Ethan, Richard, Eloise and island
in 2004, no Radzinski in the swan, because everybody would have died in the incident.
They made changes and therefor there is a hadge, there are people who left the island in time, there was a crash etc.

So am I going out on a limb here by saying that you think next season is going to be about what happened after the change??
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 13, 2009, 12:34:26 PM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.

But that's the point of the scene. It helps to support the theory put forth in "The Variable". The past is always as it was, unless acted upon by one of the variables. If Daniel never would have done that, then obviously Desmond wouldn't have remembered, but BECAUSE Daniel did it at the moment, that's when it entered Desmond's memory.

I think I get what your saying but I still have a problem with it.
What you are saying is that Dan and the Time Traveling 815ers(a good band name) are on the same conscience wavelenght as 2008 Desmond and the O6. That their 2 presents are/were happening at the same time. This way what Dan said to Des came to him that night. Kind of like in time cop when VanDam give the young bad guy a cut on his face we see the old bad guy form a scar, except mentaly.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 13, 2009, 12:36:29 PM
These ideas are great. I guess that scene was a lot more important than we orginally thought.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: Floyd25 on May 13, 2009, 12:41:05 PM
What ever happened Happened.  You can change the future but ya can't change the past.  It already happened.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 12:42:05 PM
I think I get what your saying but I still have a problem with it.
What you are saying is that Dan and the Time Traveling 815ers(a good band name) are on the same conscience wavelenght as 2008 Desmond and the O6. That their 2 presents are/were happening at the same time. This way what Dan said to Des came to him that night. Kind of like in time cop when VanDam give the young bad guy a cut on his face we see the old bad guy form a scar, except mentaly.

In a way, yeah. I hadn't thought about the whole wavlength idea, but yeah. Also, keep in mind, I'm not trying to change your mind. It would be a nice ego boost if something I said on here made someone else go, "Yeah, that does make sense, I'm on board." but you believe what you want. I'm just trying to make my thoughts make sense.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 13, 2009, 12:44:54 PM
So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 01:00:26 PM
So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 13, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.

Ok, yeah! And it is probably due to the fact that Daniel was one of the variable that it worked like that.
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 13, 2009, 01:06:01 PM
So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.

Ok, yeah! And it is probably due to the fact that Daniel was one of the variable that it worked like that.

INDEED!! Oh my god, Griz, are we like, agreeing on something??
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: LostinLock on May 16, 2009, 11:46:52 PM
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.
I know so only Dan can evoke the memories of that time
Title: Re: The man with many names has returned...
Post by: grizn0 on May 17, 2009, 01:55:32 PM
So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.

Ok, yeah! And it is probably due to the fact that Daniel was one of the variable that it worked like that.

INDEED!! Oh my god, Griz, are we like, agreeing on something??
Totally! I guess there is a first time for everything  ;D