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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x15 => Topic started by: E.S.B. on May 06, 2009, 11:09:31 PM

Title: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: E.S.B. on May 06, 2009, 11:09:31 PM
So Locke says he's going to kill Jacob. Wow! Why? Did the Island tell him to?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on May 06, 2009, 11:10:51 PM
The tumor in his head told him to do it. That came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on May 06, 2009, 11:10:58 PM
Yea, I really have know Idea.  I think it is more because he will be someone very important that we either already have seen or heard of.  I dont think he will be able to kill him.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: jamesl on May 06, 2009, 11:12:25 PM
I actually wonder if Jacob wants to die and Locke is the only who can or will kill him ?
maybe Jacob doesn't age, like Richard; and Jacob has been trapped on the island for 1000's of years and now he is tired of life and just wants to end it
so Jacob actually chose Locke just for this purpose
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 11:13:44 PM
When Jacob said "Help me" he really meant "Kill me."
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: DaveJohnson on May 06, 2009, 11:14:05 PM
It's funny, but when I heard this I immediately thought of the Zen koan:

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

Here's a breakdown of what that means (worth the read)

Quote
The first step is to cast off the literal translation.  This koan is not suggesting that if you are walking down the road and Siddhartha Gautama himself appears before you that you are to take out a weapon and slay him.

Your analysis might begin by asking yourself questions about each of the elements:

What is “the Buddha”?  What is the “road”?  Where is the “road"?  What would it mean to “kill”?

Let’s start with the “road”.  Don’t think about this as a physical roadway; koans are rarely to be taken literally.  Perhaps the road is the path we are following in life or perhaps it is our contemplative practice.

What would it mean to meet the Buddha while on the contemplative path?  Perhaps this refers to thinking that you can clearly imagine what a Buddha is, that you can define the Buddha, or even the notion that you are the Buddha that you imagine or have defined.

We have described a situation where, within your contemplative practice, you think that you have a perfect image or definition of enlightenment.  If this occurs, this koan has some instructions for you: “Kill him.”  In this case, the “him” is not a person, but instead it is the image or thought of the Buddha or enlightenment.

Our koan can therefore be thought to mean the following:

If, during your contemplative practice, thoughts arise that tell you that you have arrived at a final definition or image of enlightenment, set those thoughts aside and get back to your practice.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: E.S.B. on May 06, 2009, 11:18:33 PM
When Jacob said "Help me" he really meant "Kill me."

I like this - maybe the Others have been holding Jacob hostage in between the worlds of life and death, and Locke is going to free him by killing him (releasing him?).
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: razzle-dazzle on May 06, 2009, 11:19:08 PM
Maybe he means he will kill the myth that is Jacob by shining light on who he really is.
I think that Jacob is stuck in a ghostlike state, less alive than even Christian.
I do like the idea of Locke releasing him.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 11:20:21 PM
When Jacob said "Help me" he really meant "Kill me."

I like this - maybe the Others have been holding Jacob hostage in between the worlds of life and death, and Locke is going to free him by killing him (releasing him?).

That's what I'm thinking.  I've thought for awhile that Jacob is "trapped" in time somehow.

But, how Locke knows this now is a mystery still...
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: rhythm on May 06, 2009, 11:22:00 PM
Or kill him (Jacob) like Locke was killed.  (aka "resurrected")
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: losttill0208 on May 06, 2009, 11:26:54 PM
as in kill the idea that is Jacob.. cos Jacob isn't real.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: rhythm on May 06, 2009, 11:28:49 PM
as in kill the idea that is Jacob.. cos Jacob isn't real.

Why do you think Jacob isn't real?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 11:30:41 PM
Didn't Locke say that in this eppy?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: xrayeck on May 06, 2009, 11:47:30 PM
Is Jack's real purpose in 1977 to keep Locke from killing Jacob in 2008? (It's gotta be 2008 by now, doesn't it?)
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: lostlady on May 06, 2009, 11:48:50 PM
The way Ben and Richard looked at each other when Locke inivited everyone to go see Jacob makes me think they are hiding some key facts about Jacob--like he doesn't exist or is being held hostage.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: jkbeaulieu on May 07, 2009, 12:01:43 AM
I like the hostage theory.  I still remember back in season 3? when they first go to the cabin it is ringed by ashes or some other substance.  It sure looked like a barrier - maybe one that Jacob cannot pass through.  Maybe death will give Jacob freedom.  My second guess is the death of the illusion of Jacob.  Both seem very plausible.  Ben has never seen Jacob, Locke has.  Ben is an impostor and a fraud - I think he is Richard's henchman.  It kind of supports my theory that Richard is the dark to Jacob's light and his full nature has not been exposed yet.  Still groping in the dark...
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: hyperform on May 07, 2009, 12:51:41 AM
what if Christian is the dark to Jacob's light, or vice versa, I think Locke is following Christan's orders, and not Jacob's. Now we still don't know who the real bad and good guy is, so I'm just assuming that they are opposing each other.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 07, 2009, 02:19:47 AM
I don't think Locke is following Christian's orders, I think he's really following the Island now. Christian didn't tell him when he was going to get shot in the leg, at least not that we've seen.

I'm leaning toward the idea that to Kill Jacob is either 1. to free him or 2. to free the Others from following whomever says they know what Jacob wants.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: norville on May 07, 2009, 02:22:21 AM
Yeah, when Locke said he was going to kill Jacob, the first thought that popped into my head was "Nietzsche!" ("God is dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead).") i.e. I also think Locke is on a mission to unmask The Real Jacob, not the Jacob who has been cloistered away and hidden behind the secrets of Ben and Richard for so long.  He is on a mission to end the old order of things, and restore the proper order of things.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Blitz Wing on May 07, 2009, 04:11:35 AM
Locke keeps saying he's the leader now....and Jacob supposedly "tells" the previous "leaders" (Witmore, Ben, Richard) what to do. So it seems the previous "leaders" were not really leaders. So perhaps Locke is going to kill Jacob so he can become the real leader.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Maxor127 on May 07, 2009, 04:19:15 AM
The way I'm going to interpret it is that Locke is threatening the order of things and by "killing Jacob," it means he's going to open the curtain and show everyone the "truth" about Jacob and kill the notion that everyone takes orders from Jacob.  He may even be doing it to help Jacob, if in fact he is trapped by Richard and Ben.  I don't know.  Very confusing.  Unless he's going to have a jedi battle or something, I can't picture him literally killing Jacob.  I think he just means metaphorically.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Sunflower on May 07, 2009, 04:26:49 AM
I appreciate your theory about the man behind the curtain.  The whole thing reminds me of the catholic church...You cannot speak to God (Jacob), you have to talk to the priest (Ben/Ricahard) an intercessor.  And then Locke makes it Protestant like.  Locke died (Jesus), he came back to life and he is introducing them to Jacob and killing the "dogma" or law that comes with the others.  IDK.  They always have biblical references right?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: opgelost on May 07, 2009, 06:34:51 AM
Locke wants to kill Jacob and Smokey wants Jacob dead too.
Smokey told Ben through Alex to follow Locke's words and orders.

I always thought of Jacob as a cruel being. When Ben was taken prisoner as
Henry Gale he told that Jacob was a brilliant man, but not a forgiving man and
that he would kill him if he told about him or if he didn't do what Jacob wanted.
He also told that Jacob summons people and you can't just go to find him.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: vickilynn on May 07, 2009, 07:15:30 AM
Yeah, when Locke said he was going to kill Jacob, the first thought that popped into my head was "Nietzsche!" ("God is dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead).") i.e. I also think Locke is on a mission to unmask The Real Jacob, not the Jacob who has been cloistered away and hidden behind the secrets of Ben and Richard for so long.  He is on a mission to end the old order of things, and restore the proper order of things.

I thought the same thing!
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 07, 2009, 07:51:21 AM
OK here is what happened.

Locke meets up with the others in 1954 and talks to Richard about being from the future. He mentions to everyone that he was sent there by Jacob, a man the others never heard of. Richard entertains Locke by listening to his story and takes the watch. Locke then flashed away. Locke dissapearing in front of the others gave credit to this "Jacob" character he just mentioned. Thus Jacob was unintentionally created by Locke. Richard tells the story of Jacob and his ability to send a man through time and uses him to control the others for the next 50 years. He lets people who claim to be able to talk to Jacob lead the way. As we have seen lately Richard is not all knowing or mythical (except the not getting old thing). He and the others are being led by others that claim to talk to Jacob.

Ben and Richard will harm Locke in some way and tie him up and leave him in the cabin. Locke uses his new power of projecting his voice and image through time that he got during resurrection to talk to himself and say "help me".
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: opgelost on May 07, 2009, 07:56:50 AM
I think what Locke is doing in 2008 and what Jack is doing in 1977
must be connected somehow.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Shakey on May 07, 2009, 08:34:27 AM
I think Richard knew about Jacob before Locke mentioned him in 1954.  It seemed to be the thing that got Richard's attention and made him listen to Locke.  I don't think Jacob started with Locke's statement that he was sent by him.

Also, I think we're leading up to Walt's dream.  Locke states he's going to kill Jacob.  Ben tells Richard.  Richard has an issue with this and informs the rest of the group that this can't happen.  This is where Walt's dream of John being surrounded by people intent on harming him is realized.

Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: rhythm on May 07, 2009, 08:44:13 AM
Didn't Locke say that in this eppy?

But I don't think Locke truly knows or maybe he wasn't saying exactly that.  Maybe what he is saying is that Ben & Richard for years have been telling the people of the island what Jacob supposedly wanted, but maybe that  is not what he really wanted.  We've seen the salt line.  Looks to me like someone is keeping him trapped.

Given what we've seen/heard in the past, I don't that we can just take what Locke said in this latest episode and just believe that Jacob doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Madam P on May 07, 2009, 08:51:38 AM
Oh I agree!  I just thought we were talking about what someone said about Locke -- that he was going to "kill the idea" of Jacob because he said he doesn't really believe that Jacob is real. 
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 09:25:52 AM
I think Richard knew about Jacob before Locke mentioned him in 1954.  It seemed to be the thing that got Richard's attention and made him listen to Locke.  I don't think Jacob started with Locke's statement that he was sent by him.

Also, I think we're leading up to Walt's dream.  Locke states he's going to kill Jacob.  Ben tells Richard.  Richard has an issue with this and informs the rest of the group that this can't happen.  This is where Walt's dream of John being surrounded by people intent on harming him is realized.


I love it! I got the feeling when Richard and Ben didn't want to take him to see Jacob that Jacob was actually an older version of Locke himself. Wouldn't that be crrrrazy?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: xrayeck on May 07, 2009, 09:34:12 AM
I think what Locke is doing in 2008 and what Jack is doing in 1977
must be connected somehow.
They are. If Jack succeeds with what he is doing in 1977 then Locke will never have the opportunity to do what he says he's going to do in 2008, all of which provides a pretty powerful clue as to who manipulated the lives of the Losties to ensure they were on Flight 815 and to ensure that it crashed on the island. It was Jacob.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: bfth on May 07, 2009, 09:46:54 AM
I don't know who's right and who is wrong, but you all have some GREAT theories (from Locke planting the seed of Jacob in Richard's mind, which I don't think is correct, but is still a BRILLIANT idea to Locke being Jacob saying "Help me" to himself).  Great creative crew here!
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 07, 2009, 09:49:39 AM
as in kill the idea that is Jacob.. cos Jacob isn't real.

I'm on this bandwagon too.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 09:52:47 AM
as in kill the idea that is Jacob.. cos Jacob isn't real.

I'm on this bandwagon too.
I have to dissagree. Jacob is very much real. Only he is being held hostage either by Richard and Ben or by time itself. I think Vincent has some sort of connection with Jacob and or Smokey too. And I think Jacob may be a future version of Locke.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Des on May 07, 2009, 10:09:56 AM
as in kill the idea that is Jacob.. cos Jacob isn't real.

I'm on this bandwagon too.
I have to dissagree. Jacob is very much real. Only he is being held hostage either by Richard and Ben or by time itself. I think Vincent has some sort of connection with Jacob and or Smokey too. And I think Jacob may be a future version of Locke.

I also disagree that Jacob is just a notion, an idea, a crutch... I have complete faith in the writers, but I just don't see how that would NOT be completely lame. We've waited five seasons, it HAS to be better then that.

I love the idea about it being a future version of Locke. I had not thought of that before but think it's a great idea.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 07, 2009, 10:15:50 AM
as in kill the idea that is Jacob.. cos Jacob isn't real.

I'm on this bandwagon too.
I have to dissagree. Jacob is very much real. Only he is being held hostage either by Richard and Ben or by time itself. I think Vincent has some sort of connection with Jacob and or Smokey too. And I think Jacob may be a future version of Locke.

I also disagree that Jacob is just a notion, an idea, a crutch... I have complete faith in the writers, but I just don't see how that would NOT be completely lame. We've waited five seasons, it HAS to be better then that.

I love the idea about it being a future version of Locke. I had not thought of that before but think it's a great idea.

*cough**cough* The Numbers *cough*
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Des on May 07, 2009, 10:17:55 AM
What about the numbers? I don't think we're done with them either... but honestly, even if we were, I think I'd be more satisfied with the numbers then with finding out that Jacob is a hoax.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Yeah really, what about the numbers? The numbers are Jacob? lol...
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: jamesl on May 07, 2009, 10:58:33 AM
..Also, I think we're leading up to Walt's dream.  Locke states he's going to kill Jacob.  Ben tells Richard.  Richard has an issue with this and informs the rest of the group that this can't happen.  This is where Walt's dream of John being surrounded by people intent on harming him is realized.

I totally forgot about this
that is a really good observation
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: lostieloo on May 07, 2009, 11:40:10 AM
I appreciate your theory about the man behind the curtain.  The whole thing reminds me of the catholic church...You cannot speak to God (Jacob), you have to talk to the priest (Ben/Ricahard) an intercessor.  And then Locke makes it Protestant like.  Locke died (Jesus), he came back to life and he is introducing them to Jacob and killing the "dogma" or law that comes with the others.  IDK.  They always have biblical references right?

I like this...Martin Luther Locke and his 4 8 15 16 23 41 thesis nailed to the temple door!
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: LOSTRULES on May 07, 2009, 11:58:54 AM
I read an article in the paper yesterday about the finale and it says that we are finally going to get to "see" Jacob. I don't know how true this is but I figured I would put it out there anyway.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: BobBX542 on May 07, 2009, 01:32:36 PM
Is Jack's real purpose in 1977 to keep Locke from killing Jacob in 2008? (It's gotta be 2008 by now, doesn't it?)

I think that it was the present for a little while, but then when they started showing us the black screens that say thirty years later, thirty years earlier, and it was established that Sawyer and them are in 1977, that means that Locke, Sun, Frank, etc. Are all in 2007. This show is never going to catch up to itself. LOL


The way Ben and Richard looked at each other when Locke inivited everyone to go see Jacob makes me think they are hiding some key facts about Jacob--like he doesn't exist or is being held hostage.

Maybe they are just afraid of what Jacob will do being interrupted like this. But aodds are you're right, because my guesses never pan out.


Also, I think we're leading up to Walt's dream.  Locke states he's going to kill Jacob.  Ben tells Richard.  Richard has an issue with this and informs the rest of the group that this can't happen.  This is where Walt's dream of John being surrounded by people intent on harming him is realized.

I totally forgot about Walt's dream. Nice catch Shakey. That is some good stuff right there. Might explain how Ben still gets to kill Locke (like Smokey/Alex said), but doesn't actually kill him. Maybe Ben does his manipulative thing, and tells everyone about Locke's plan, and then plants the seed about kiling him to save Jacob.


I love it! I got the feeling when Richard and Ben didn't want to take him to see Jacob that Jacob was actually an older version of Locke himself. Wouldn't that be crrrrazy?

Depends on how long you believed that theory. Me for instance have thought that for the past 2 years. So, is that crazy?? LOL

I hate to keep pointing this out, but I feel like I have to, but WE HAVE SEEN JACOB!! there is no way he is "just an idea". We have actually seen him with our friggin eyes.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Novashannon on May 07, 2009, 02:16:33 PM
What Bob said.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 02:21:42 PM
Yes we have seen Jacob. It looked like either a grizzly Locke or a grizzly Christian. And I think we can rule out Christian being Jacob.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Novashannon on May 07, 2009, 02:26:17 PM
Maybe he is JIn or Chang.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Shivy on May 07, 2009, 02:27:26 PM
If Jacob is Locke I don't think Richard and Ben know it because a) Ben tried to kill Locke, and b) Richard said John Locke looks lihe he's going to be trouble when John insisted Richard take him to see Jacob, which to me means Jacob and John Locke are 2 very different beings.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 02:34:21 PM
Either that or Richard has never seen Jacob either.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Holland34 on May 07, 2009, 02:54:34 PM
I'm sorry, but part of me can't help but think of Carol Kane's character from "The Princess Bride" telling Locke, "Have fun killing Jacob!" (instead of "Have fun storming the castle"... in case the reference was too vague.)
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: BobBX542 on May 07, 2009, 04:41:10 PM
You know, despite that I think Locke and Jacob are the same person, that doesn't even matter. I'm just saying that as far as the concept of who/what Jacob is, he's a person. And we know this to be true, because we have seen him. Regardless of who it was/is, we have seen it.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: nomteticus on May 07, 2009, 04:49:34 PM
Locke could have been speaking metaphorically, just to upset Ben, as in "the magic box".
He may want to "kill" his godlike image. Even if he is real, if all the others see a crazy old man in a cabin who isn't able to do anything, they won't obey them anymore. And I think Locke has the fantasy of setting "his people" free. And he may be wrong. Jacob could be indeed very powerful, and act as an unforgiving god, killing Locke and the non-believers. Maybe that's why Richie and Bennie are so upset.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: RM on May 07, 2009, 08:31:59 PM
If Jacob is Locke I don't think Richard and Ben know it because a) Ben tried to kill Locke, and b) Richard said John Locke looks lihe he's going to be trouble when John insisted Richard take him to see Jacob, which to me means Jacob and John Locke are 2 very different beings.

Yeah, it doesn't quite match for Locke to be Jacob unless there's yet another time-jump to pre-2004.  Jacob is already trapped in the cabin when the Losties first crash.

On the other hand, wasn't there a screencap of when Hurley stumbled onto the cabin and the face that flashed in the window was Locke?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: LoniZeppelin on May 08, 2009, 01:43:48 AM
jacob=jack
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Madam P on May 08, 2009, 10:02:26 AM
On the other hand, wasn't there a screencap of when Hurley stumbled onto the cabin and the face that flashed in the window was Locke?


Wasn't that when Locke really was in the cabin, though?  The scene when Hurley and Ben were sitting outside eating a Dharma-bar and Locke came out and said Jacob told him to move the island?  I could be wrong...  and plus, it could've been a way for the writers to send a cool veiled hint anyway.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Survivor815 on May 08, 2009, 10:05:36 AM
I like the hostage theory.  I still remember back in season 3? when they first go to the cabin it is ringed by ashes or some other substance.  It sure looked like a barrier - maybe one that Jacob cannot pass through.  Maybe death will give Jacob freedom.  My second guess is the death of the illusion of Jacob.  Both seem very plausible.  Ben has never seen Jacob, Locke has.  Ben is an impostor and a fraud - I think he is Richard's henchman.  It kind of supports my theory that Richard is the dark to Jacob's light and his full nature has not been exposed yet.  Still groping in the dark...

When I saw the ashes, I thought the same thing. I think Jacob is stuck there, maybe trapped in time somehow. I like the idea that killing Jacob will free him.

Also, did you see the look on Ben's face when Locke said he was going to kill Jacob? Priceless!! lol
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 08, 2009, 12:43:02 PM
When did we see this ring around the cabin? All I remember was a small line of ash that Locke looked at. How do we go from seeing a small portion of ash to a psychic barrier that circles the cabin and keeps ghost Jacob trapped inside?
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: BobBX542 on May 08, 2009, 01:42:17 PM
On the other hand, wasn't there a screencap of when Hurley stumbled onto the cabin and the face that flashed in the window was Locke?


Wasn't that when Locke really was in the cabin, though?  The scene when Hurley and Ben were sitting outside eating a Dharma-bar and Locke came out and said Jacob told him to move the island?  I could be wrong...  and plus, it could've been a way for the writers to send a cool veiled hint anyway.

The second time we see the cabin, hurley walks up to it, and sees someone jump up infront of the window, and we get a close up of that person's eye.

When did we see this ring around the cabin? All I remember was a small line of ash that Locke looked at. How do we go from seeing a small portion of ash to a psychic barrier that circles the cabin and keeps ghost Jacob trapped inside?

The small portion we saw semi circular, so it is assumed that it circled the cabin.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: lostlady on May 09, 2009, 09:29:15 PM
Maybe Jacob will be Vincent and Locke won't have the heart to kill him.  ;D
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Shakey on May 12, 2009, 08:20:44 AM
Also, I think we're leading up to Walt's dream.  Locke states he's going to kill Jacob.  Ben tells Richard.  Richard has an issue with this and informs the rest of the group that this can't happen.  This is where Walt's dream of John being surrounded by people intent on harming him is realized.

I totally forgot about Walt's dream. Nice catch Shakey. That is some good stuff right there. Might explain how Ben still gets to kill Locke (like Smokey/Alex said), but doesn't actually kill him. Maybe Ben does his manipulative thing, and tells everyone about Locke's plan, and then plants the seed about kiling him to save Jacob.
Thanks.  That's exactly what I was thinking, too.  Ben will never become 100% subservient... this is his opportunity.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: lostlady on May 12, 2009, 08:27:41 AM
Also, I think we're leading up to Walt's dream.  Locke states he's going to kill Jacob.  Ben tells Richard.  Richard has an issue with this and informs the rest of the group that this can't happen.  This is where Walt's dream of John being surrounded by people intent on harming him is realized.

I totally forgot about Walt's dream. Nice catch Shakey. That is some good stuff right there. Might explain how Ben still gets to kill Locke (like Smokey/Alex said), but doesn't actually kill him. Maybe Ben does his manipulative thing, and tells everyone about Locke's plan, and then plants the seed about kiling him to save Jacob.
Thanks.  That's exactly what I was thinking, too.  Ben will never become 100% subservient... this is his opportunity.

yes, that is so Ben. I now believe that is his plan. As we know--he always has a plan! Good thinking, Shakey!
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on May 12, 2009, 09:05:50 AM
I like the hostage theory.  I still remember back in season 3? when they first go to the cabin it is ringed by ashes or some other substance.  It sure looked like a barrier - maybe one that Jacob cannot pass through.  Maybe death will give Jacob freedom.  My second guess is the death of the illusion of Jacob.  Both seem very plausible.  Ben has never seen Jacob, Locke has.  Ben is an impostor and a fraud - I think he is Richard's henchman.  It kind of supports my theory that Richard is the dark to Jacob's light and his full nature has not been exposed yet.  Still groping in the dark...

When I saw the ashes, I thought the same thing. I think Jacob is stuck there, maybe trapped in time somehow. I like the idea that killing Jacob will free him.

Also, did you see the look on Ben's face when Locke said he was going to kill Jacob? Priceless!! lol
What if we are wrong about the ashes? What if the ashes are meant to keep smokey from the cabin. Smokey is waiting to take Jacob to the underworld. He is an important soul to the looming war.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on May 12, 2009, 09:17:37 AM
Just an odd and randomly placed thought here ... Locke killing Jacob in any form, physically or theoretically is going to be pointless. He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2009, 09:35:13 AM
I am still on the boat of metaphorically killing Jacob. Much like the Wizard of Oz, Locke will pull back the curtain to reveal Richard was at the helm the entire time.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Zinzi on May 12, 2009, 09:48:38 AM
Some brilliant ideas kicking around at the moment!  That is a great catch about Walt's dream Shakey!  Walt was right about Locke being back on the island wearing a suit, so stands to reason he's right about being surrounded by people wanting to hurt him!  Also I believe that we weren't shown all of the interaction between Locke (as Bentham) and Walt, because in the conversation we saw Walt was never told about Locke's alias.  Walt could have had more to say about his dreams.

Before we heard and saw Jacob in "The man behind the curtain" I really thought it was going to be a Wizard of Oz all an illusion scenario, with Ben being the one "controlling" things, but now I believe that Jacob is real (although probably some sort of ethereal/spirit being).  I still think that Ben has been controlling things and saying Jacob said so and so, when it is what he wants done.  I think that Jacob's lists were really Ben's lists and it was Ben's means of grabbing who he wanted.  Then again Ben seems genuinly afraid of Jacob, In "Two for the Road" he says to Locke "The man in charge—he's a great man, John, a brilliant man—but he's not a forgiving man. He'll kill me because I failed, John. I failed my mission.", so surely he must have had some communication with Jacob?  Maybe Ben could hear Jacob, but not see him?  Or maybe Writers_Strike and the rest of you who think it's Richard controlling everyone are right?!  Oh it's all SOOOO confusing!  ;D ???

Walkabout V.2, that's a pretty big case just for one soul, maybe there's more than one in there?!  :o ;D
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 01:05:07 PM
Just an odd and randomly placed thought here ... Locke killing Jacob in any form, physically or theoretically is going to be pointless. He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case.

What do you mean by "He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case"?? Who is "He" in that sentence??
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 02:06:11 PM
Just an odd and randomly placed thought here ... Locke killing Jacob in any form, physically or theoretically is going to be pointless. He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case.

What do you mean by "He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case"?? Who is "He" in that sentence??
I think "he" is Jacob.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on May 12, 2009, 03:21:47 PM
Just an odd and randomly placed thought here ... Locke killing Jacob in any form, physically or theoretically is going to be pointless. He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case.

What do you mean by "He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case"?? Who is "He" in that sentence??
Jacob. Marsellus Wallace was Ving Rhames character in Pulp Fiction. He sends Jules(JAckson) and Vincent(Travolta) to retrieve it and return it to him. Just remeber the scene , in the diner, at the end of the movie. Case gets opened and everyone stops and stares with awe at the case. Jacob needs his soul back.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 03:27:14 PM
Just an odd and randomly placed thought here ... Locke killing Jacob in any form, physically or theoretically is going to be pointless. He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case.

What do you mean by "He has already Lost his soul like Marsellus Wallace and Illana and crew have it in that case"?? Who is "He" in that sentence??
Jacob. Marsellus Wallace was Ving Rhames character in Pulp Fiction. He sends Jules(JAckson) and Vincent(Travolta) to retrieve it and return it to him. Just remeber the scene , in the diner, at the end of the movie. Case gets opened and everyone stops and stares with awe at the case. Jacob needs his soul back.

You know, I was almost positive that was a Pulp fiction reference, but just shook it off. But okay, you were talking about Jacob there. So you think that Jacob's "soul" is in the big box?? Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Going to kill Jacob
Post by: Adriana on May 13, 2009, 02:37:08 AM
I appreciate your theory about the man behind the curtain.  The whole thing reminds me of the catholic church...You cannot speak to God (Jacob), you have to talk to the priest (Ben/Ricahard) an intercessor.  And then Locke makes it Protestant like.  Locke died (Jesus), he came back to life and he is introducing them to Jacob and killing the "dogma" or law that comes with the others.  IDK.  They always have biblical references right?

Wow, GREAT analogy!