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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x14 => Topic started by: MachThree on April 30, 2009, 02:59:47 AM

Title: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: MachThree on April 30, 2009, 02:59:47 AM
"For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen next" -- Eloise Hawking

Does this mean Jack, Kate, or one of the other 815'ers gives 1977 Eloise a brain dump and tells her everything that happened up until the point where they left the future and headed back to 1977 (which would have been right before this scene)?  Is *that* how she knows so much?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: jamesl on April 30, 2009, 03:04:57 AM
how does she know what she knows ?
for instance, how did she know the guy with red shoes was going to die ?
there was no one to have told her that

unless she's somehow like Desmond,
he knew Charlie was going to get struck by lightning and was going to drown
maybe something affected them and allowed them to see certain things
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: MachThree on April 30, 2009, 03:06:30 AM
how does she know what she knows ?
for instance, how did she know the guy with red shoes was going to die ?
there was no one to have told her that

unless she's somehow like Desmond,
he knew Charlie was going to get struck by lightning and was going to drown
maybe something affected them and allowed them to see certain things

You might be right - it just struck me as interesting that right after the 815'ers head back to the past is when she says this - as if her knowledge of what was coming ceased when they left.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: jamesl on April 30, 2009, 03:08:05 AM
when did Daniel figure out his mother was one of The Hostiles ?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Mrs Hume on April 30, 2009, 04:16:46 AM


when did Daniel figure out his mother was one of The Hostiles ?

well, maybe he wrote it in his little black book in the future or past or whatever.

I think she has done or seen this already and now that they are in 1977 changing things she now doesn't know what is going to happen.
or maybe all these yrs she was trying to change the fact that she was going to shoot him. but now she's stopped.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: razzle-dazzle on April 30, 2009, 04:27:57 AM
Considering Jack and Kate are there when Dan gets shot, I suspect Jack tells Ellie a few things. Between that and Dan's book, she has a good idea of what happens.

I just don't get how she knows that the guy with the shoes dies in Flashes. She seemed to know a lot about Desmond.
It also seems like Ellie and Charles plotted to screw Des's life up to get him to the Island. I hope Des, Penny and little Charlie sail off and live happily ever after.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Mrs Hume on April 30, 2009, 04:44:00 AM
Considering Jack and Kate are there when Dan gets shot, I suspect Jack tells Ellie a few things. Between that and Dan's book, she has a good idea of what happens.

I just don't get how she knows that the guy with the shoes dies in Flashes. She seemed to know a lot about Desmond.
It also seems like Ellie and Charles plotted to screw Des's life up to get him to the Island. I hope Des, Penny and little Charlie sail off and live happily ever after.
Maybe in the hope that Desmond will push the button and finally not cause the plane to crash which would then lead to Widmore not finding the island and then not sending Dan to his demise. each time it happends Eloise tries to change it. and each time she fails. there are probably so many holes in that train of thinking.  I don't know yet. it's still Wednesday and I have to marinate in all the info we got tonight. Then I can see things more clear. Wednesday night posting for me is always bad.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: WhatThe on April 30, 2009, 04:58:44 AM
when did Daniel figure out his mother was one of The Hostiles ?


I'm guessing that he discovered something while he was off the island and in Ann Arbor...we still don't know how she became a Hostile, so maybe Daniel researched his mom's whereabouts while in Ann Arbor, and saw a younger photo of her...remembered seeing her back in 1954..and said "Oh, sh*t!" lol...
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Mrs Hume on April 30, 2009, 05:06:47 AM
I still think that she , Eloise, wrote it all in the book after shooting Dan. maybe Dan told her the whole story through miles or jack and the others told her the whole story and she wrote it all in the journal. do we know if the journal she gave him was empty? i don't think so.
so everyone told her everthing that has happened to them up until 2007/8. that is why she doesn't know anymore future things now. because she was only told what happened up till now (2007) .
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: WhatThe on April 30, 2009, 05:10:54 AM
I still think that she , Eloise, wrote it all in the book after shooting Dan. maybe Dan told her the whole story through miles or jack and the others told her the whole story and she wrote it all in the journal. do we know if the journal she gave him was empty? i don't think so.
so everyone told her everthing that has happened to them up until 2007/8. that is why she doesn't know anymore future things now. because she was only told what happened up till now (2007) .

But what would have caused him to NOT realize she was his mom when he was back in 1954, though? In Daniel's relative timeline, he would have already received her notes about her being a Hostile in his book even though in HER timeline she had not written it yet.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Mrs Hume on April 30, 2009, 05:19:33 AM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: WhatThe on April 30, 2009, 05:24:52 AM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.


I like the manual/step-by-step idea. Kind of reminds me of the movie "Primer", where  (SPOILER) one of the characters at the end was following his own notes that his future self left his present self on an audio tape.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Mrs Hume on April 30, 2009, 06:06:48 AM
it could be that she wrote it or he wrote it but either way it would be like the first time he is seeing it since his memory was so bad.
yeah, it was my first impression. and you know what they say about first impressions! lol
check out. hmmm, for some reason ABC doesn't have "the lie" they only have episodes 11 through 14 which is very strange.  ???
well, "the lie" right before they are torched by flaming arrows and jughead is very interesting, even more so now.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: WhatThe on April 30, 2009, 06:58:00 AM
it could be that she wrote it or he wrote it but either way it would be like the first time he is seeing it since his memory was so bad.
yeah, it was my first impression. and you know what they say about first impressions! lol
check out. hmmm, for some reason ABC doesn't have "the lie" they only have episodes 11 through 14 which is very strange.  ???
well, "the lie" right before they are torched by flaming arrows and jughead is very interesting, even more so now.

In "The Lie", right when Charlotte approaches Daniel and says "Hi", he says "hold on a second", looks into his book, then puts it down. What stands out is that he was not reading it when she walked up, so it does kinda hint at what you were saying about him treating it like a manual and approaching it with a step-by-step guide to what's happening in his life. So, yeah, it very well may have already been filled in when his mother gave it to him, the only change to it being her inscription in the front.

I didn't watch "Jughead" again, but one thing that I thought about after watching tonight's episode was how easily Daniel reached his conclusions about there being a bomb and about what the Hostiles thought he, Charlotte and Miles were. With what we know now, it may not have simply been smart deduction, but instead could have been foreknowledge.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Mrs Hume on April 30, 2009, 07:05:07 AM
it could be that she wrote it or he wrote it but either way it would be like the first time he is seeing it since his memory was so bad.
yeah, it was my first impression. and you know what they say about first impressions! lol
check out. hmmm, for some reason ABC doesn't have "the lie" they only have episodes 11 through 14 which is very strange.  ???
well, "the lie" right before they are torched by flaming arrows and jughead is very interesting, even more so now.

In "The Lie", right when Charlotte approaches Daniel and says "Hi", he says "hold on a second", looks into his book, then puts it down. What stands out is that he was not reading it when she walked up, so it does kinda hint at what you were saying about him treating it like a manual and approaching it with a step-by-step guide to what's happening in his life. So, yeah, it very well may have already been filled in when his mother gave it to him, the only change to it being her inscription in the front.

I didn't watch "Jughead" again, but one thing that I thought about after watching tonight's episode was how easily Daniel reached his conclusions about there being a bomb and about what the Hostiles thought he, Charlotte and Miles were. With what we know now, it may not have simply been smart deduction, but instead could have been foreknowledge.
Yes!!  ;That is exactly the scene in which i was referring too!!! from the very start i thought that strange.
and yes I agree with you on your second paragraph as well! although I'm sure we'll find some holes in this or someone else will. like why did it take 3 yrs to come back if he knew all this or did he have to wait until now to come back because this is what it said to do in the book. oh with new answers are always so many new questions.  ::) ahhhh  lol
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: rhythm on April 30, 2009, 09:05:58 AM
I have a feeling we'll find out next week how she knows what she knows.  And I have the distinct feeling that its because Jacob, Jack & Kate tell her.  LOL
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: lostfromthestart on April 30, 2009, 09:42:27 AM
What did she write in the front of the book?  Something like if you remember anything, remember that I love you.... or something to that effect.  Meaning, you may not remember anything else you read in this (already filled out) manuel, just remember I love you.

I believe the manual was already full of his (maybe some of her?) notes relating to time travel.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 10:35:23 AM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.


As I remember she gave him the notebook at the lunch after his graduation,

He seemed pretty sane at that point, telling her she was very rude to teresa.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: vickilynn on April 30, 2009, 10:54:14 AM
I think she knows she is going to shoot him, and that she is "apologizing" to him; she wants him to "forgive" her for shooting him, since she loves him, but it has to be done (she thinks).
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on April 30, 2009, 11:57:19 AM
She is a strong believer in destiny and believes Dan's destiny is to go to the island and get shot by her.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 11:59:26 AM
She is a strong believer in destiny and believes Dan's destiny is to go to the island and get shot by her.

Incidentally Griz, since your a hockey fan do you recognize Eloise from Youngblood with Rob lowe?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on April 30, 2009, 12:01:28 PM
She is a strong believer in destiny and believes Dan's destiny is to go to the island and get shot by her.

Incidentally Griz, since your a hockey fan do you recognize Eloise from Youngblood with Rob lowe?
You know what? I've never seen it. But I guess I'll have to watch it now.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: nomteticus on April 30, 2009, 12:09:10 PM
Yeah, I guess they catch Jack and Kate and find out all about Daniel - that he's a physicist, that he went to Oxford, that he got on a freighter, and then she sets him up, just like he set up Desmond. Not sure how she knew about the guy with the shoes and about Desmond, but hopefully we'll find that out. And she probably knows everything up to this point. She knew Jack had to be on the island because she saw him, Kate also, maybe even Sayid. So that's why she says all of them have to get back. I think the '815 emulation' part was BS, just to convince them to go. She is certain that if things don't happen as they always happened the universe will collapse or something.

But if she doesn't know anything then why did he tell Desmond that the island is not done with him?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on April 30, 2009, 12:13:28 PM
Yeah, I guess they catch Jack and Kate and find out all about Daniel - that he's a physicist, that he went to Oxford, that he got on a freighter, and then she sets him up, just like he set up Desmond. Not sure how she knew about the guy with the shoes and about Desmond, but hopefully we'll find that out. And she probably knows everything up to this point. She knew Jack had to be on the island because she saw him, Kate also, maybe even Sayid. So that's why she says all of them have to get back. I think the '815 emulation' part was BS, just to convince them to go. She is certain that if things don't happen as they always happened the universe will collapse or something.

But if she doesn't know anything then why did he tell Desmond that the island is not done with him?
I would say because she remembers an interaction with him from the past as well. Same as she knew Dan had to go back, she probably knows Des will go back too.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: BobBX542 on April 30, 2009, 03:43:59 PM
When I watched the scene with Eloise talking to Penny in the hospital, I got the distinct feeling that she was lying to Penny about the not knowing what's going to happen next bit. If you look at her face, she has a very worried look right up until the nurse comes in so Penny can go to the recovery room, and as soon as Mrs. Hawking is out of Penny's eyeline, for that quick second, she drops the worried face, and walks out. That's how I took it anyway.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: sillysab on April 30, 2009, 03:49:34 PM
when did Daniel figure out his mother was one of The Hostiles ?

Isn't it when he finds out about the H bomb? He says they call her Ellie and that he suspected it was his mother, didn't he?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: simeean on April 30, 2009, 04:48:12 PM
Eloise tells Desmond the island's not done with him yet. Desmond is hurt because Ben tried to kill Penny. Killing Penny was Ben's rule-breaking retaliation for Widmore breaking the rules the first time. So it looks like Eloise doesn't know what's going to happen because the rules have been broken again, no? According to what she knows, Desmond has more to do but hadn't been attacked by Ben, so now the "future" that she's expecting is in limbo.... Does that make sense? Still don't know what she knows or how she knows it though....
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: jamesl on April 30, 2009, 05:03:42 PM
Daniel was also sitting in the van with Miles at the beginning of the show.
Dan was reading his little notebook. Miles asked, "Are you waiting for someone?"
Then Dr. Chang pulled up and Daniel said, "right on time."

it's as if a schedule or timeline of future events is written in the book.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 05:05:25 PM
Daniel was also sitting in the van with Miles at the beginning of the show.
Dan was reading his little notebook. Miles asked, "Are you waiting for someone?"
Then Dr. Chang pulled up and Daniel said, "right on time."

it's as if a schedule or timeline of future events is written in the book.
This is what I've been saying for...a while. That all the information about their time in the DI is written in that notebook.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 06:06:21 PM
Well, his little notebook failed to tell him about his getting shot in the back. Because he was obviously surprised. Although he shouldn't be, a man as smart as he was should have known going into a hostile camp waving an old burner as going to get him shot dead. It was basic mathematics, Daniel. Wasn't that your forte?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: vickilynn on April 30, 2009, 07:03:17 PM
Maybe it didn't happen that way, before? Seems like Ben didn't believe Keamy would shoot Alex based on something happening in the "past"...could be Dan had no reason to believe Eloise would be shooting him in the back.

I admit it, I am absolutely confused with the time travel tangles.

I'm just following the plot at this point and skimming over what seems like a "paradox."
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: joshzam on April 30, 2009, 11:43:01 PM
What did she write in the front of the book?  Something like if you remember anything, remember that I love you.... or something to that effect.  Meaning, you may not remember anything else you read in this (already filled out) manuel, just remember I love you.

I believe the manual was already full of his (maybe some of her?) notes relating to time travel.

She wrote "No matter what, remember I will always love you" and the book was brand new - crisp white pages and the spine wasn't even broken. When we see it later all filled out on the Island, it's dirty, pages are ripped, and it's bent out of shape (well used). I doubt his mom gave it to him with anything substantial inside.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: RM on May 01, 2009, 08:13:01 AM
In 2004, Daniel's mind is so fried he needs a caretaker.  He has clearly experimented on himself (in an effort to go back and prevent whatever went wrong with Theresa?)  He knows exactly what Desmond is experiencing because he has been through it himself.  So I would say that he has written himself some notes about what will-happen/has-happened in that notebook.  He may realize at some point that he will begin to have memory problems and so does the Memento thing to remind himself of what he should already know -- remember the note to self that Desmond will be his Constant; he clearly expects to lose his mind at some point.

Do Charles and Eloise really believe that the healing properties of the Island will help Daniel get better?  Maybe so since they encounter a lucid Daniel in 1954 and in 1977.  So they aren't really just lying to him to get him onto the Island to fulfill his destiny; there's some truth/benevolence in their motives as well.

Daniel's journal is on his dead body, right?  So clearly the Others will read it and go through it.  Is that how it ends up in Ben's possession and is on his deserted desk when Caesar is going through it?  Is Daniel's notebook the way Ben seems to know everything that is "supposed to" happen?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 01, 2009, 09:14:20 AM
Jack ends up with the notebook somehow.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: KittenPoo on May 04, 2009, 03:21:24 PM
Maybe it didn't happen that way, before? Seems like Ben didn't believe Keamy would shoot Alex based on something happening in the "past"...could be Dan had no reason to believe Eloise would be shooting him in the back.

I admit it, I am absolutely confused with the time travel tangles.

I'm just following the plot at this point and skimming over what seems like a "paradox."

I think it happened that way all along.  Remember at the hospital when Widmore is talking about sacrifice?  She says something to the effect of "don't tell me about sacrifice!  I've just sent my son back to that island knowing..."  Sounds to me like she knew she was going too kill him.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Chuckie on May 04, 2009, 04:42:24 PM
[Suddenly, there is a loud crash behind the bench Ms. Hawking and Desmond have been sitting on. Some scaffolding has fallen and killed the man with red shoes.]

DESMOND: Oh, my God. You knew that was going to happen, didn't you? [she nods] Then why didn't you stop it? Why didn't you do anything?

MS. HAWKING: Because it wouldn't matter. Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to.


I think this conversation, from Flashes Before Your Eyes, is the beginning of Eloise's story, and "For the first time in a long time, I don't have any idea what's going to happen" is the end of that same story.

I think that Eloise pushed Daniel so hard to be a physicist, and stop thinking about girls, and stop ****ing with the piano, not because she knew it was her destiny to shoot him. She did this because she knew that one day, he would figure out time travel, and how to manipulate time. She also knew, of course, that she was going to shoot her son. However, I think for the last 30 years, Mrs. Hawking has been traveling through time herself, trying to fix her mistake. Once Daniel got all his knowledge, and Mrs. Hawking learned everything she could from how the Island works, this is how she's spent every moment. Trying to go back and change her mistake. That's how she knows about "course correction" and is so ambivalent toward the Man With The Red Shoes. If  you're dead, you're dead. No matter what. If you go to an island to press a button, that's what you do. If you shoot your son, that's what you do. No matter what.

But once they...jiggled the handle on the island, her ability to Time Travel stopped. Something went wrong. So now she's going to have to find out what happens next. She knew that in 2007, her son would die at her hand. So for those 30 years, she hopped back and forth in time, trying to change what happened. Trying to make any change that would correct her mistake.

Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense. There's not a lot of Mrs Hawking talking to try and pick subtleties and nuance out of. There are only a couple episodes where WOEH (Wise Old Eloise Hawking) has much to say. But I think that conversation with Desmond tells us more about her, than it does about him.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: Kenny Rogers on May 06, 2009, 06:59:21 PM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.


As I remember she gave him the notebook at the lunch after his graduation,

He seemed pretty sane at that point, telling her she was very rude to teresa.


Yes, it was at lunch after he received his PHD at Oxford.  He told her about his research grant from Charles Widmore.  He was quite sane, since he hadn't even started his experiments yet, let alone tested it on himself.

I had the impression that apart from the note from his mother inside the cover, the pages of the book were blank.  It certainly didn't look like the dog-eared book he had with him when he was killed.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 09:55:15 AM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.


As I remember she gave him the notebook at the lunch after his graduation,

He seemed pretty sane at that point, telling her she was very rude to teresa.


Yes, it was at lunch after he received his PHD at Oxford.  He told her about his research grant from Charles Widmore.  He was quite sane, since he hadn't even started his experiments yet, let alone tested it on himself.

I had the impression that apart from the note from his mother inside the cover, the pages of the book were blank.  It certainly didn't look like the dog-eared book he had with him when he was killed.
But it was, as we saw last night.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: BobBX542 on May 07, 2009, 11:48:52 AM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.


As I remember she gave him the notebook at the lunch after his graduation,

He seemed pretty sane at that point, telling her she was very rude to teresa.


Yes, it was at lunch after he received his PHD at Oxford.  He told her about his research grant from Charles Widmore.  He was quite sane, since he hadn't even started his experiments yet, let alone tested it on himself.

I had the impression that apart from the note from his mother inside the cover, the pages of the book were blank.  It certainly didn't look like the dog-eared book he had with him when he was killed.
But it was, as we saw last night.

Wait, are you saying that the notebook that Young Eloise took off of Daniel is the exact same one that Old Eloise gave Daniel after he graduated?? Words/writing and all??
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 11:55:27 AM
Well, if you think about it, she gave him the book not long before he goes off on the freighter. he doesn't have a good memory then, so if he read the whole book he could have forgot it. but it seemed to me, (and i have posted this a few times in the beginning of the season) that he kept referring to the book at odd times, (like when Charlotte came over to give him a mango right before they were shot with flaming arrows). like it was a manual. it is very possible that he only read things right before they happened. step by step. until he went to Ann arbor and could read the whole thing. it's kind of hard to read a book while flashing through time and running from flaming arrows etc etc...
this is all maybes and could Be's. it's still early after the episode. so no kinks are worked out yet, really.


As I remember she gave him the notebook at the lunch after his graduation,

He seemed pretty sane at that point, telling her she was very rude to teresa.


Yes, it was at lunch after he received his PHD at Oxford.  He told her about his research grant from Charles Widmore.  He was quite sane, since he hadn't even started his experiments yet, let alone tested it on himself.

I had the impression that apart from the note from his mother inside the cover, the pages of the book were blank.  It certainly didn't look like the dog-eared book he had with him when he was killed.
But it was, as we saw last night.

Wait, are you saying that the notebook that Young Eloise took off of Daniel is the exact same one that Old Eloise gave Daniel after he graduated?? Words/writing and all??
Yeah... thats what I got out of it. Of course, when she gives it to him at the lunch it is empty.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: BobBX542 on May 07, 2009, 04:12:25 PM
Yeah... thats what I got out of it. Of course, when she gives it to him at the lunch it is empty.

Oh, whew, I thought I was misunderstanding you. I thought you meant that she gave Daniel the book with all of the stuff already written in it.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 07, 2009, 04:14:52 PM
Yeah... thats what I got out of it. Of course, when she gives it to him at the lunch it is empty.

Oh, whew, I thought I was misunderstanding you. I thought you meant that she gave Daniel the book with all of the stuff already written in it.
No no not at all. That would make no sense. I mean, sometimes I know I don't make much sense (the whole Sawyer thing from last night haha), but for the most part I think I do.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: BobBX542 on May 08, 2009, 12:51:00 PM
Yeah... thats what I got out of it. Of course, when she gives it to him at the lunch it is empty.

Oh, whew, I thought I was misunderstanding you. I thought you meant that she gave Daniel the book with all of the stuff already written in it.
No no not at all. That would make no sense. I mean, sometimes I know I don't make much sense (the whole Sawyer thing from last night haha), but for the most part I think I do.

Normally. LOL
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 08, 2009, 02:22:52 PM
Yeah... thats what I got out of it. Of course, when she gives it to him at the lunch it is empty.

Oh, whew, I thought I was misunderstanding you. I thought you meant that she gave Daniel the book with all of the stuff already written in it.
No no not at all. That would make no sense. I mean, sometimes I know I don't make much sense (the whole Sawyer thing from last night haha), but for the most part I think I do.

Normally. LOL
That is my "normal" mind though :P
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: lostlady on May 09, 2009, 11:35:45 PM
Maybe Eloise doesn't know what will happen anymore because not everyone got on the plane like they were supposed to. (Aaron and Desmond for example). She had said that if everyone who was on the island didn't get on flight 316 things would not work out right (or something to that effect)
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 10:03:13 AM
Aaron and Desmond weren't on 815 though. I guess, technically, Aaron was. But he was still about a month (I think?) away from being born.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: lostlady on May 12, 2009, 10:16:31 AM
Oh yes, you're right. Desmond was never on the plane to begin with. How did I forget that! lol. However, Eloise did say the island wasn't finished with him and he did turn up at the church the night she was telling everyone to go back. Maybe he was meant to go back with them at that time and didn't? it just seems her comment of 'everone needs to go back or the end result won't be the same' (paraphrasing) is important becasue she believes in the what happened, happened theory. Why if she believes in that then is she worried about changes that might happen if not everyone goes back?
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 10:19:49 AM
It could be debated that the reason she wanted everyone to go back was to change something or not. She could want everyone to go back because thats what she remembers happening and she is trying to make sure it happens again. As for Desmond; I'm with you, I think he has to go back at some point. How? When? With who? Don't know.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2009, 01:00:33 PM
Well, she did say that the island was not done with Desmond yet, so regardless, he HAS to go back.
Title: Re: "For the first time in a long time..."
Post by: grizn0 on May 12, 2009, 02:05:36 PM
Well, she did say that the island was not done with Desmond yet, so regardless, he HAS to go back.
And I can't wait till it happens!