Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x14 => Topic started by: HugeJohnLockeFan on April 29, 2009, 11:03:28 PM

Title: RIP Faraday
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on April 29, 2009, 11:03:28 PM
How can you mother kill you like that?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:04:14 PM
How can you mother kill you like that?
uh, with a rifle ?
:)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:04:25 PM
she didn't know at the time
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 29, 2009, 11:04:43 PM
Shot him in the back, man. That was cold blooded. I hope that beady-eyed pig gets what's coming to her!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:08:08 PM
what a crappy thing to realize at the last minute, "you knew this was going to happen and you sent me anyway"
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on April 29, 2009, 11:08:26 PM
She did not know that Daniel was her son when she shot him.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Schmokey on April 29, 2009, 11:08:58 PM
Shot him in the back, man. That was cold blooded. I hope that beady-eyed pig gets what's coming to her!

In her defense, she thought she was protecting Richard.   She was right when she said she made a sacrifice.   And that's heavy stuff for her knowing that she was going to kill her son.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:09:30 PM
I do not think Faraday is dead
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:10:22 PM
I do not think Faraday is dead
good luck with that
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:11:52 PM
If Faraday is dead it sets up a paradox
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:13:07 PM
How?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Roman122 on April 29, 2009, 11:13:22 PM
If Faraday is dead it sets up a paradox

How so?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Maxor127 on April 29, 2009, 11:14:19 PM
A paradox how?

Faraday deserved to die waving that gun around.  For all his intelligence in physics, he has really bad judgment and people skills.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:16:06 PM
no paradox
Eloise goes on to have a baby boy; she names him Daniel, she encourages him to study physics because she KNOWS he will time travel; he eventually graduates college; later she encourages him to go to the island knowing that she will fulfill her and his destiny by shooting him
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 29, 2009, 11:16:10 PM
Shot him in the back, man. That was cold blooded. I hope that beady-eyed pig gets what's coming to her!

In her defense, she thought she was protecting Richard.   She was right when she said she made a sacrifice.   And that's heavy stuff for her knowing that she was going to kill her son.

I am not angry she shot him, she had no idea who this wandering maniac was. I am angry she sent her poor son to die after basically ruining his life by forcing her wishes on him. She even went as far as to say, yes, that would make proud. That was such a low thing for a mother to do to a son. She has to die horribly!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:16:15 PM
as he was walking in to the camp, I was yelling at my tv, PUT THE GUN DOWN DUDE! YOU ARE WAY OUTNUMBERED!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: oszuscik on April 29, 2009, 11:17:46 PM
Alpert could take him to the temple like he did w Ben...could explain part of the memory problems that Faraday has later on
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 29, 2009, 11:18:03 PM
I wonder, though, how much he knew. Going there with a gun seemed like too stupid a thing to do. Unless he knew things had to happen a certain way.

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:19:34 PM
... She even went as far as to say, yes, that would make proud. That was such a low thing for a mother to do to a son. She has to die horribly!

I totally knew something was wrong when she said that
the long on her face at the time was just one that couldn't be trusted,
you knew she was up to something
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:20:29 PM
Faraday is born to Ellie and Widmore

Ellie Off Island sets Dan up to be this Genuis----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>Ellie goes off the Island sets Dan up to be this Genuis----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 29, 2009, 11:20:43 PM
Yes. That beady-eye motherless pig! She's my most hated character at the moment. I never trusted her, from the moment she showed up you knew she was trouble.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 29, 2009, 11:22:08 PM
Totally off-topic, but cool Havok picture, Hyper. Alex is my favorite Summers. I miss the old headgear, it was awesome!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:22:41 PM
Faraday is born to Ellie and Widmore

Ellie Off Island sets Dan up to be this Genuis----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>Ellie goes off the Island sets Dan up to be this Genuis----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>

this happened every time though, didn't you notice how in every stage she seemed to be forcing herself to push him, she knew that she was going to shoot him, but that had to happen, just like the guy with the red tennis shoes in flashes before your eyes

no paradox
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Folly529 on April 29, 2009, 11:25:05 PM
Alpert could take him to the temple like he did w Ben...could explain part of the memory problems that Faraday has later on

His memory problems come later only if you consider the time as an on-looker.  To him, the memory problems are in his past.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:27:37 PM
Faraday is born to Ellie and Widmore

Ellie Off Island sets Dan up to be this Genius----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>Ellie goes off the Island sets Dan up to be this Genius----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>

this happened every time though, didn't you notice how in every stage she seemed to be forcing herself to push him, she knew that she was going to shoot him, but that had to happen, just like the guy with the red tennis shoes in flashes before your eyes

no paradox


That is the Paradox as far as we know this could have been the 8 or 9th time that Faraday has been shotand killed....if that is what happens.....

There is always this sense with Desmond/Faraday/Ellie that there was something they new that others didn't......They only new the future, so to speak, because they had already lived it
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:29:05 PM
Alpert could take him to the temple like he did w Ben...could explain part of the memory problems that Faraday has later on

His memory problems come later only if you consider the time as an onlooker.  To him, the memory problems are in his past.

Now this is why I don't think he is dead and my his Memory problems could be healed....unless Desmond healed them
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:29:21 PM
Faraday is born to Ellie and Widmore

Ellie Off Island sets Dan up to be this Genius----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>Ellie goes off the Island sets Dan up to be this Genius----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>

this happened every time though, didn't you notice how in every stage she seemed to be forcing herself to push him, she knew that she was going to shoot him, but that had to happen, just like the guy with the red tennis shoes in flashes before your eyes

no paradox


That is the Paradox as far as we know this could have been the 8 or 9th time that Faraday has been shotand killed....if that is what happens.....

There is always this sense with Desmond/Faraday/Ellie that there was something they new that others didn't......They only new the future, so to speak, because they had already lived it
there is only one timeline, I say again ONLY ONE

if they do manage to do what Dan suggested, only then will there be multiple
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Maxor127 on April 29, 2009, 11:29:32 PM
I was hoping Daniel would shoot Richard so we'd see what happens when you shoot a guy who doesn't age.  Or I was hoping Richard would do something freaky to dispatch him.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on April 29, 2009, 11:30:09 PM
I do not think Faraday is dead
good luck with that
LOL
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:30:39 PM
Faraday is born to Ellie and Widmore

Ellie Off Island sets Dan up to be this Genuis----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>Ellie goes off the Island sets Dan up to be this Genuis----->>>>>things roll events happen-----Ellie sends/convinces Dan (des) to go to the Island where these events happen---->Dan ends up in 1974----1977----shot and killed(?)------>

it sounds like you're saying the paradox is
each action has a cause and an effect, but with this whole chain, you can't really tell which is the cause and which the effect,
the paradox is the action caused itself
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:31:06 PM
also, Dan's memory problems are in his past, they don't come later, which is why when he got shot he even mentioned that they can get hurt, because this is their present
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Roman122 on April 29, 2009, 11:32:44 PM
I was hoping Daniel would shoot Richard so we'd see what happens when you shoot a guy who doesn't age.  Or I was hoping Richard would do something freaky to dispatch him.
lol, I was half expecting to see Dan pull the trigger and have the bullet go right through RIchard
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: CastawayCayley on April 29, 2009, 11:32:56 PM
I was hoping Daniel would shoot Richard so we'd see what happens when you shoot a guy who doesn't age.  Or I was hoping Richard would do something freaky to dispatch him.

you remind me of a question I had at the time... if Richard is "immortal" then what does it matter if someone is pointing a gun at him? Why shoot someone who is threatening someone who can't die? Is Richard "immortal" or just not aging until something kills him??
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: CastawayCayley on April 29, 2009, 11:34:27 PM
also, Dan's memory problems are in his past, they don't come later, which is why when he got shot he even mentioned that they can get hurt, because this is their present

I knew when he specifically said, "Any of us can die!!" that they were setting up SOMETHING... I was just hoping it would happen later and not to Dan. :(
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:35:00 PM
NO if they do what Dan suggest that creates a alternate future

      ----------Plane never crashes
1977
     ----------Plane crashes

Or Dan dies Ellie goes off Island etc etc etc creates a circle

This is logic
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:35:37 PM
I think Richard goes to the temple quite often, and get's Re-healed or what ever you want to call it, sort of like Wolverine with his healing ability, he is like 180 years old, but he looks about 30 or 40
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:36:05 PM
Alpert could take him to the temple like he did w Ben...could explain part of the memory problems that Faraday has later on

but Ben was still alive when he was taken to the temple,
Daniel is dead
and his memory problems are the result of the treatment he preformed on himself in the lab at Oxford, the same treatment he preformed on the rats that allowed them to run a maze perfectly they had never been in before
because the rat's brain "knew the future", knew the correct route
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Schmokey on April 29, 2009, 11:36:42 PM
as he was walking in to the camp, I was yelling at my tv, PUT THE GUN DOWN DUDE! YOU ARE WAY OUTNUMBERED!

I was thinking the same thing!  And really, it seemed like such an un-Daniel thing to do.  Isn't he more the type to walk up to one of the hostiles with his hands up saying, "I come in peace" ??
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:39:48 PM
NO if they do what Dan suggest that creates a alternate future

      ----------Plane never crashes
1977
     ----------Plane crashes

Or Dan dies Ellie goes off Island etc etc etc creates a circle

This is logic
why is it a circle, this always happened, just because it is the present for our friends doesn't mean that they are changing things, all of this already happened for everyone except Jack, Kate etc
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: CastawayCayley on April 29, 2009, 11:44:48 PM
NO if they do what Dan suggest that creates a alternate future

      ----------Plane never crashes
1977
     ----------Plane crashes

Or Dan dies Ellie goes off Island etc etc etc creates a circle

This is logic

I think I get what your saying... that Daniels plans will cause the paradox, that stopping the incident changes the future and then Daniel would never then go to the island to keep the incident from happening. But now he's dead... so he can't neutralize the energy. Theoretically one of the Losties will, but none of them are physicists, so... will they?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:46:56 PM
NO if they do what Dan suggest that creates a alternate future

      ----------Plane never crashes
1977
     ----------Plane crashes

Or Dan dies Ellie goes off Island etc etc etc creates a circle

This is logic

I think I get what your saying... that Daniels plans will cause the paradox, that stopping the incident changes the future and then Daniel would never then go to the island to keep the incident from happening. But now he's dead... so he can't neutralize the energy. Theoretically one of the Losties will, but none of them are physicists, so... will they?
I think Dr. Chang will enter the equation, so to speak, and believe Dan eventually, and maybe actually help them do this.

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:54:46 PM
I think Dr. Chang will enter the equation, so to speak, and believe Dan eventually, and maybe actually help them do this.

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?

starts at the 59 second mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo6Q7gzUjI8

that is DEFINITELY Daniel's voice
so, it'll be interesting to see how this fits in
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: CastawayCayley on April 29, 2009, 11:54:57 PM

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?

OMG!! Good point!!! Maybe we havent lost him after all!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Gar O Mac on April 29, 2009, 11:55:14 PM
NO if they do what Dan suggest that creates a alternate future

      ----------Plane never crashes
1977
     ----------Plane crashes

Or Dan dies Ellie goes off Island etc etc etc creates a circle

This is logic

I think I get what your saying... that Daniels plans will cause the paradox, that stopping the incident changes the future and then Daniel would never then go to the island to keep the incident from happening. But now he's dead... so he can't neutralize the energy. Theoretically one of the Losties will, but none of them are physicists, so... will they?
I think Dr. Chang will enter the equation, so to speak, and believe Dan eventually, and maybe actually help them do this.

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?
But if our losties cause a new reality where their plane never crashes then they would never be on the island to stop the plane from crashing.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on April 29, 2009, 11:56:10 PM
NO if they do what Dan suggest that creates a alternate future

      ----------Plane never crashes
1977
     ----------Plane crashes

Or Dan dies Ellie goes off Island etc etc etc creates a circle

This is logic

I think I get what your saying... that Daniels plans will cause the paradox, that stopping the incident changes the future and then Daniel would never then go to the island to keep the incident from happening. But now he's dead... so he can't neutralize the energy. Theoretically one of the Losties will, but none of them are physicists, so... will they?
I think Dr. Chang will enter the equation, so to speak, and believe Dan eventually, and maybe actually help them do this.

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?

I don't think so.  People just assumed it was Dan talking in the background.  It could just as easily have been someone else.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 29, 2009, 11:56:40 PM
I think Richard goes to the temple quite often, and get's Re-healed or what ever you want to call it, sort of like Wolverine with his healing ability, he is like 180 years old, but he looks about 30 or 40

Temple... heal... immortality... sounds more like Ra's Al Ghul. ;)

lol.

Forgot to throw in the Egyptian link. And they both wear guyliner.

Richard Alpert Ghul!

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:56:47 PM

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?

OMG!! Good point!!! Maybe we haven't lost him after all!

They said that was canon
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 29, 2009, 11:57:02 PM
doing something differently IS a paradox
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:57:40 PM
So what happens when Ellie get's off the Island?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 29, 2009, 11:58:40 PM
I don't think so.  People just assumed it was Dan talking in the background.  It could just as easily have been someone else.

watch the video, I posted a link 3 or 4 posts above
you don't think that's Daniel's voice ?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 29, 2009, 11:59:00 PM
Time stops being a street or a loop


It becomes a cirlce
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jugdish on April 30, 2009, 12:07:19 AM
I did not see Daniel's death coming at all. Glad he gave us some answers before he did die.

But in Lost, dead does not mean we won't see him again.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on April 30, 2009, 12:09:46 AM
I don't think so.  People just assumed it was Dan talking in the background.  It could just as easily have been someone else.

watch the video, I posted a link 3 or 4 posts above
you don't think that's Daniel's voice ?

I don't have an opinion whatsoever.  I was simply saying that maybe it isn't his voice.  And maybe the producers/writers wanted us to think it was his voice. 
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 30, 2009, 12:10:39 AM
So what happens when Ellie get's off the Island?
she has a son named dan and pushes him to become a scientist, and then pushes him to go to the island.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: lovinlost on April 30, 2009, 12:10:55 AM
I did not see Daniel's death coming at all. Glad he gave us some answers before he did die.

But in Lost, dead does not mean we won't see him again.

Didn't see that one coming either.  Completely out of left field.  His warning to Jack that anyone could die set my ire a bit, but I certainly did not expect that anything would happen in THIS ep.  More like setting things up for the season ending ep.  I was wrong-o.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 12:11:27 AM
And what happens when Dan Faraday goes to the Island?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: LouE68 on April 30, 2009, 12:12:47 AM

speaking of that, does this mean that the Comic-con video is now null and void?

OMG!! Good point!!! Maybe we haven't lost him after all!

They said that was canon
maybe it was like a mobisode, somewhere inbetween, he said hey lets do a video...umm, get this guy away from me
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 30, 2009, 12:16:20 AM
I did not see Daniel's death coming at all. Glad he gave us some answers before he did die.

But in Lost, dead does not mean we won't see him again.

Didn't see that one coming either.  Completely out of left field.  His warning to Jack that anyone could die set my ire a bit, but I certainly did not expect that anything would happen in THIS ep.  More like setting things up for the season ending ep.  I was wrong-o.
when they were sitting in the creek while Dan explained his plan to Jack and Kate, I was waiting for him to take one between the eyes, that is how much I was expecting him to die in this episode.

I kept thinking, DAN! GET DOWN! THE HOSTILES ARE GONNA SHOOT YOU!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 30, 2009, 12:30:20 AM
And what happens when Dan Faraday goes to the Island?
he gets sent back in time and eventually gets shot by his mother
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 12:45:02 AM
And what happens when Dan Faraday goes to the Island?
he gets sent back in time and eventually gets shot by his mother

And what happens when Ellie leaves the Island?

This is also a paradox of time......and is the most dangerous one because it is what effects us all. Points/Events that are connected that need one another to happen

What I am saying is if Dan is dead and Kate and Jack don't figure out how to stop the building of the swan then Dan always goes back.

Dan always goes back not because of fate or destiny because he does it again and again and again etc etc etc.......

In a way he is Prometheus
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: tonysee200x on April 30, 2009, 12:53:12 AM
And what happens when Dan Faraday goes to the Island?

Everything only happened once and it happened the way we saw it, no circles, no loops.

The one time it happened Dan tried to change it. It did not happen once without Dan trying to change it and once with Dan trying to change it. ...at least that is the way they have set it up for us.

Now if someone is able to do something that changes things, and we see the same date happen twice with different events happening on the same date-- then I will change my mind.

Until then no paradox's have happened (Now if Dan killed his mother that would be a paradox)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on April 30, 2009, 12:54:45 AM

And what happens when Ellie leaves the Island?

This is also a paradox of time......and is the most dangerous one because it is what effects us all. Points/Events that are connected that need one another to happen

What I am saying is if Dan is dead and Kate and Jack don't figure out how to stop the building of the swan then Dan always goes back.

Dan always goes back not because of fate or destiny because he does it again and again and again etc etc etc.......

In a way he is Prometheus

Boston:

Help me understand your theory.  

If Dan always goes back and flashes through time.  Winds up going to Ann Arbor then returns just days after Jack, Kate & the others end up on the island.  Then get Jack & Kate to take him to his mother and along the way divulges his plan to them, goes to the hostile camp, tells Richard what he told him tonight and gets shot by his mother.  Then let's assume Jack & Kate tell Eloise and Richard what Dan told them.  The Swan however still gets built and everything happens just as it always happend before...how is that a paradox?  

You state that "Dan always goes back...does it again and again", then how is that a paradox?  

You're confusing the heck out of me-lol
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 12:55:41 AM
Never mind. I read it all wrong. Got confused by the Red Sox logo...
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 01:18:41 AM
It isn't a theory it is logic....


If that Hatch is built and Des goes to the Island and Dan is dead then that creates a circle......


Where my theory kicks in is that this has been going on for some time now and Ellie and Widmore are the because of this


Remember when she confronts Desmond she tells him "you don't buy the ring"

This wasn't a Jedi mind trick she has seen this before...... she has lived it before she sends Dan to the Island to die because she has in the past

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: norville on April 30, 2009, 01:21:22 AM
There is no time loop, no circle, no time paradox.  The only loop is one of causation -- essentially, Ellie sent Daniel to the island BECAUSE Daniel had to be on the island BECAUSE Ellie shot him there BECAUSE Ellie sent Daniel to the island.  But a loop in causation is one thing, and a loop in time is something else.  There is no getting caught in a loop -- everything only happened once.  Each person's individual timeline, the journey of their consciousness from birth to death, has a beginning and an end.  No loops.

Now if Daniel's theory is true, and Jack & co. can indeed set off an explosion that will destroy the electromagnetic energy source that brings down their plane -- THAT will be a paradox.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 30, 2009, 01:23:45 AM
There is no time loop, no circle, no time paradox.  The only loop is one of causation -- essentially, Ellie sent Daniel to the island BECAUSE Daniel had to be on the island BECAUSE Ellie shot him there BECAUSE Ellie sent Daniel to the island.  But a loop in causation is one thing, and a loop in time is something else.  There is no getting caught in a loop -- everything only happened once.  Each person's individual timeline, the journey of their consciousness from birth to death, has a beginning and an end.  No loops.

Now if Daniel's theory is true, and Jack & co. can indeed set off an explosion that will destroy the electromagnetic energy source that brings down their plane -- THAT will be a paradox.
thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to say, though not as eloquently as you just did.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 01:24:15 AM
Ok if Dan dies and Ellie goes off the Island what happens?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: norville on April 30, 2009, 01:31:34 AM
Ok if Dan dies and Ellie goes off the Island what happens?
Well, if we are to believe the same thing that Eloise does -- that you can't change the future -- then here is Ellie's timeline:
in 1977, Daniel dies and sometime later Ellie goes off the island.
Ellie has a baby and names him Daniel.
Ellie raises Daniel to be a brilliant mathematician and physicist.
Ellie pushes her son to excel.
She does all of this, knowing he's destined to go to the island, travel back in time somehow, and get shot.
In 2004, Ellie sends her son to the Island as a sacrifice, in order to make what happened, happen.
In 2007, when the Oceanic 6 show up, she helps them get back to the island.  (It is unclear to me whether she learned in 1977 that there were others from the future there with her son, but it seems plausible.)
After she sends the Oceanic 6 back to the island in 2007, she no longer knows what the future holds.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 30, 2009, 01:32:29 AM
Ok if Dan dies and Ellie goes off the Island what happens?

season 6
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: HurleysGirl on April 30, 2009, 01:44:05 AM

Now if Daniel's theory is true, and Jack & co. can indeed set off an explosion that will destroy the electromagnetic energy source that brings down their plane -- THAT will be a paradox.

Jack and Juliet, THAT's a pair 'o' docs.  Gigglesnort.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: norville on April 30, 2009, 01:45:19 AM
Jack and Juliet, THAT's a pair 'o' docs.
LOL!  Good one, HurleysGirl.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 01:46:25 AM
Ok if Dan dies and Ellie goes off the Island what happens?
Well, if we are to believe the same thing that Eloise does -- that you can't change the future -- then here is Ellie's timeline:
in 1977, Daniel dies and sometime later Ellie goes off the island.
Ellie has a baby and names him Daniel.
Ellie raises Daniel to be a brilliant mathematician and physicist.
Ellie pushes her son to excel.
She does all of this, knowing he's destined to go to the island, travel back in time somehow, and get shot.
In 2004, Ellie sends her son to the Island as a sacrifice, in order to make what happened, happen.
In 2007, when the Oceanic 6 show up, she helps them get back to the island.  (It is unclear to me whether she learned in 1977 that there were others from the future there with her son, but it seems plausible.)
After she sends the Oceanic 6 back to the island in 2007, she no longer knows what the future holds.

And this doesn't repeat why?.......

If the Hatch is built this repeats....it repeats because Dan is dead because if 2007 hw would get sent back again
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: IFP on April 30, 2009, 02:45:55 AM
First mistake - thinking of time as linear. It is not. For people in, let's say, 1895, it IS - right now - 1895.
We perceive time as linear, but it is no more linear than space - you have to move to get from point a to point b, but both points already existed, and continue to exist.

Therefore, no loop. There is, however, as mentioned, a CAUSALITY loop. A caused B caused A etc...
This causality loop IS a form of paradox - it is a Predestination Paradox.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox)

This obviously isn't the same as the more familiar Grandfather Paradox - A caused B prevented A; therefore B doesn't exist; therefore B didn't prevent A; therefore A caused B etc... This type of paradox is what would have been created if Faraday's plan had been successful.

Regardless, it is not happening infinitely. Eloise sent Daniel back in time, knowing full well that he would die, because she remembered killing him. He is a time traveler. She didn't know who he was when she killed him. She later found out, but knows she is powerless to change his path. It's really very simple, if you let it be.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on April 30, 2009, 02:49:30 AM
...
Regardless, it is not happening infinitely. Eloise sent Daniel back in time, knowing full well that he would die, because she remembered killing him. He is a time traveler. She didn't know who he was when she killed him. She later found out, but knows she is powerless to change his path. It's really very simple, if you let it be.

someone else said she sent him back hoping he would be able to change the past
I can actually see that
a mother doing everything she can trying to change the past where she killed her son
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: ericd543 on April 30, 2009, 03:43:14 AM
R.I.P. Daniel Faraday
Thank you for trying to set things right.
Now you can go to the pretty light.
Free will, good show. You did your best.
Tho I'm still hoping you were wearing a vest.
See ya in another life brotha, but don't know when.
Maybe you can explain this time travel stuff to me then.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: soulska on April 30, 2009, 08:39:36 AM
i really hope the island is not done with daniel. he is one of my favorite characters. :(
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on April 30, 2009, 08:45:17 AM
There is no time loop, no circle, no time paradox.  The only loop is one of causation -- essentially, Ellie sent Daniel to the island BECAUSE Daniel had to be on the island BECAUSE Ellie shot him there BECAUSE Ellie sent Daniel to the island.  But a loop in causation is one thing, and a loop in time is something else.  There is no getting caught in a loop -- everything only happened once.  Each person's individual timeline, the journey of their consciousness from birth to death, has a beginning and an end.  No loops.

Now if Daniel's theory is true, and Jack & co. can indeed set off an explosion that will destroy the electromagnetic energy source that brings down their plane -- THAT will be a paradox.

norville: Okay.  I agree and I see now I was using the wrong term.  That is exactly what I believe too.

Boston:  Just to be clear, you are saying that these things will take place again...which is true.  But not in a Ground Hog Day type of loop?  Meaning, as far as the people involved are concerned, these things are only happening once?  Because if so, then I believe we are all saying the same thing, just using different terminology.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: HurleysGirl on April 30, 2009, 08:47:23 AM
Jack and Juliet, THAT's a pair 'o' docs.
LOL!  Good one, HurleysGirl.

<------- Shamelessly cribbing Robert Heinlein
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 11:57:55 AM
If Faraday is dead it sets up a paradox

You must truly love this word because you have been saying it since this time travelling statred at the beginning of the season, I have banged my head off too many walls when trying to convey the theory that the writers are trying to express and have been unable to even comprehend the "logic" you are trying to define.

It could be that your theory is so mind blowing that I just cant grasp it but I don't think so,  you are clearly not understanding what the writers and several posters are trying to explain.

I am not saying Daniel was right or wrong about not being able to change things from 77 forward, he seems to have changed his stance from 1974 to 1977.

There is no loop/paradox, Daniel is living his present in Eloise's (his moms) past. and when we saw him in the flashbacks playing piano as a child that was his present say 1980 and Eloise's future from 1977 she always knew she would shoot him and felt she had to steer him towards the island you could see the pain in her face because she absolutely believed (incorrectly perhaps) that he HAD to go to the island, maybe if she had not steered him to the island she would not have shot him in 77, but she, for whatever reason, assumed that she had to do it, so she did.

I am not finding fun to argue this point anymore I just wish I could understand the "logic" you are using, sadly I do not think I can, it my be too intelligent for me to comprehend, or you are just thinking more abstractly than me.

Perhaps someone else who agrees with you could better explain the stance you are taking.

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Novashannon on April 30, 2009, 01:25:40 PM
I think you should all look up the definition of "paradox."  It means anything that is self-contradicting.  So, the Losties being in two places at once is, by definition, a paradox.  There can be paradoces that make no difference, and those that change things.  Apparently, being in the same time twice is a non-threatening paradox.  Killling your baby self would be a time-threatening paradox. 
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Floyd25 on April 30, 2009, 01:31:43 PM
I think you should all look up the definition of "paradox."  It means anything that is self-contradicting.  So, the Losties being in two places at once is, by definition, a paradox.  There can be paradoces that make no difference, and those that change things.  Apparently, being in the same time twice is a non-threatening paradox.  Killling your baby self would be a time-threatening paradox. 
YES!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on April 30, 2009, 01:38:17 PM
Thanks for that definition post, Novashannon.  I agree, there are paradoxes all over the place now that this time-travel thing has started.

This reminds me so much of an old comic book I had back in the '70's.  Time-travelling scientist goes back in time to visit -- sneaks into his own house one night for some reason or another -- his "younger self" wakes up, thinks "older self" is a burglar, fight ensues, and "older self" ends up killing "younger self" in the struggle.  Quandry:  What's his status if he goes back to his "normal time" in his time machine?  If he died as a young man in the past, does he still exist as "older self" in the future?

Daniel is shot dead by his mother in 1977.  Daniel comes to the island in 2004 as part of the freighter group.   (I know, I know... one street and someone else's past is someone else's future and all that.)  Still sounds like a paradox to me.  
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Novashannon on April 30, 2009, 02:02:54 PM
It IS a paradox!  Just existing at two different ages in the same time is a paradox.  IF young self killed older self, it would be harmless.  Old self already was born in the future, lived out life there until coming to the past.
Old self dying changes nothing.  Older self's birth and life have not changed.    He will exist in the future as usual and will not exist from the point of leaving for time travel.  Now, if younger self is dead, that is a serious problem,  because young self can now never grow to be older self.  This could change the future, and is a time-threatening paradox.  Time would change, and we don't know what would happen.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 02:09:17 PM
Thanks for that definition post, Novashannon.  I agree, there are paradoxes all over the place now that this time-travel thing has started.

This reminds me so much of an old comic book I had back in the '70's.  Time-travelling scientist goes back in time to visit -- sneaks into his own house one night for some reason or another -- his "younger self" wakes up, thinks "older self" is a burglar, fight ensues, and "older self" ends up killing "younger self" in the struggle.  Quandry:  What's his status if he goes back to his "normal time" in his time machine?  If he died as a young man in the past, does he still exist as "older self" in the future?

Daniel is shot dead by his mother in 1977.  Daniel comes to the island in 2004 as part of the freighter group.   (I know, I know... one street and someone else's past is someone else's future and all that.)  Still sounds like a paradox to me.  



I see where most of the opposition is going with this, I just dont understand where Boston specifically is going/is/thinks is going on.

I think if for instance Daniel was on the island as a child and the daniel that came back to 1977 from 2004 had killed his younger self that would definately be a paradox, I think the reason most understand that two of the same entity or person in the same space is a paradox due to Einstiens theory of relativity that the same cells or whatever cannot occupy the same spaceat the same time,  but I still think that theory pertains to interaction or actual physical contact.  But the writers are not using Einstien theories.(besides the fact they are just theories anyway).

Had the Daniel that has now just returned from Ann arbor, never gone to the island, he would be living his life in 2007 but since he went back to the osland he somehow ended up in the year 1977, but essentially it would be the same as getting shot in 2007 had he never gone back to the island, but he did go back to the island, so now he id dead.

but the daniel that was playing piano in the flashbacks, and the daniel that had lunch with Mrs hawking has just not experienced his future in 1977 yet.

I don't see how it is at all a paradox.



Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: KiddyB on April 30, 2009, 02:10:26 PM
Pity to see Daniel go, but I don't think (or I don't HOPE) that they are fulfilling Daniels Plans. Since the Season Finale is called "The Incident" and you never know what comes next on Lost anyway, it could be that they somehow change the Future (Their past). Butfor me that doesn't sound right. I can't figure out an other solution, but we should bare in mind, that we still have John Locke in the "real" present. So, my guess would be that it's up to him to reunite the Losties, Jack and the others will not do that.
I would'nt be happy with the Faraday solution anyway. I became friends with the idea of Time Travelling but (no offense to Fans) I watched the decline of Heroes and it would be a shame to ruin another great Show by constructing some horrible and illocical storylines, though... (Although the "Heroes" problem would be that they just can't come up with sincere and proper ideas... But, never mind)

P.S.: I'm German, so just in case, sorry for some crazy english!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 02:10:33 PM
It IS a paradox!  Just existing at two different ages in the same time is a paradox.  IF young self killed older self, it would be harmless.  Old self already was born in the future, lived out life there until coming to the past.
Old self dying changes nothing.  Older self's birth and life have not changed.    He will exist in the future as usual and will not exist from the point of leaving for time travel.  Now, if younger self is dead, that is a serious problem,  because young self can now never grow to be older self.  This could change the future, and is a time-threatening paradox.  Time would change, and we don't know what would happen.

But what is your paradox, young self is not dead,  2007 (old) daniel died in 1977???

How is this a paradox :(Just existing at two different ages in the same time is a paradox)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Novashannon on April 30, 2009, 02:20:14 PM
Thanks for that definition post, Novashannon.  I agree, there are paradoxes all over the place now that this time-travel thing has started.

This reminds me so much of an old comic book I had back in the '70's.  Time-travelling scientist goes back in time to visit -- sneaks into his own house one night for some reason or another -- his "younger self" wakes up, thinks "older self" is a burglar, fight ensues, and "older self" ends up killing "younger self" in the struggle.  Quandry:  What's his status if he goes back to his "normal time" in his time machine?  If he died as a young man in the past, does he still exist as "older self" in the future?

Daniel is shot dead by his mother in 1977.  Daniel comes to the island in 2004 as part of the freighter group.   (I know, I know... one street and someone else's past is someone else's future and all that.)  Still sounds like a paradox to me.  



I see where most of the opposition is going with this, I just dont understand where Boston specifically is going/is/thinks is going on.

I think if for instance Daniel was on the island as a child and the daniel that came back to 1977 from 2004 had killed his younger self that would definately be a paradox, I think the reason most understand that two of the same entity or person in the same space is a paradox due to Einstiens theory of relativity that the same cells or whatever cannot occupy the same spaceat the same time,  but I still think that theory pertains to interaction or actual physical contact.  But the writers are not using Einstien theories.(besides the fact they are just theories anyway).

Had the Daniel that has now just returned from Ann arbor, never gone to the island, he would be living his life in 2007 but since he went back to the osland he somehow ended up in the year 1977, but essentially it would be the same as getting shot in 2007 had he never gone back to the island, but he did go back to the island, so now he id dead.

but the daniel that was playing piano in the flashbacks, and the daniel that had lunch with Mrs hawking has just not experienced his future in 1977 yet.

I don't see how it is at all a paradox.





LOook up the definition of "paradox" in a dictionery.  Just being a paradox has no bearing on time travel or changing things.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on April 30, 2009, 02:28:18 PM
To change gears a bit...

I was trying to think of how many clues we got throughout the episode that Daniel was going to die: 

Daniel saying to Jack "Any one of us could die anytime."

Eloise writing in Daniel's graduation gift "No matter what happens, always remember I love you."   (I got goosebumps when I read that note...)

I know there were more but my brain is fuzzy.  Anyone else remember some?

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: laklost on April 30, 2009, 02:31:35 PM
Daniel's timeline was this

born -> became a scientist -> went to the island -> time skipped with Locke and Sawyer -> went to Ann Arbor -> went to the island in 1977 -> was shot by mother.

The idea that the events keep repeating is not what is happening in this story.  When Dan said to Jack and Kate that "THIS IS OUR PRESENT" he meant that they so far have lived 2004 -> 2007-> 1977.  Don't get tripped up by the numbers of the years.  The story is airtight contained to the ISLAND, the OTHERS, DHARMA, THE LOSTIES.  The events in question are matters of the ISLAND.  The whole world was not knocked back to 1977 when Sawyer and his group, and then Jack and his group were.  It was just them, just there, just this story.  There is no paradox.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: shadow on April 30, 2009, 02:33:35 PM
It IS a paradox!  Just existing at two different ages in the same time is a paradox.

It is only a paradox if you apply reality the the "Lostverse".

In reality (as far as we know), time travel does not exist. Therefore a person existing at two different ages at the same point in time is a paradox.

However, in the Lostverse, time travel DOES exist in some fashion. As such, a person that exists at two different ages at the same point in time is NOT a contradiction in itself. Hence, it is not a paradox.

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: shadow on April 30, 2009, 02:40:58 PM
born -> became a scientist -> went to the island -> time skipped with Locke and Sawyer -> went to Ann Arbor -> went to the island in 1977 -> was shot by mother.

I posted this image in another thread. Time is two dimensional, but the Losties perceive it as a single dimension (years across the top).

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3374/3488768902_838714433a_o.png)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 02:43:47 PM
It IS a paradox!  Just existing at two different ages in the same time is a paradox.

It is only a paradox if you apply reality the the "Lostverse".

In reality (as far as we know), time travel does not exist. Therefore a person existing at two different ages at the same point in time is a paradox.

However, in the Lostverse, time travel DOES exist in some fashion. As such, a person that exists at two different ages at the same point in time is NOT a contradiction in itself.



let's assume that time travel is possible in reality,  how then would it be a paradox?
What is the contradiction if I go back in time and see/meet myself?  (not kill my younger self because I think that is a paradox,)

It could only be a paradox if you follow (Ok I was wrong its not einstien it is the pauli exclusion principle that says two object cannot occupy the same space and time.)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Novashannon on April 30, 2009, 02:48:05 PM
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: laklost on April 30, 2009, 02:49:38 PM
The word that keeps tripping us up is the word BACK.  They have not gone BACK to 1977.  They just ARE in 1977.  It's the next event in their own sequence.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on April 30, 2009, 02:50:59 PM
Well here is a little picture that I created in the last few minutes.  I now see the one above mine which makes perfect sense and is the same point that I am trying to get across, and is a little bit better then mine.  But here goes anyways.

Basically the blue boxes on both the lines occurred at the same time.  The line the 815er's taking from 2004 to 1977 notice is not going back in time. As in they are still living there present which just happens to be other people's (who live in 2004) past.

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i216/drumn4life0789/LOST.jpg)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 02:55:54 PM
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

Ok but since time travel is not possible the writers can do whatever they like,

Have you been arguing this point with the perception that time travel is possible?

I dont think if time travel were possible there qwoudl be any paradox, how does my being beside my self create any paradox? I have read the definition of paradox and it applies mostly to language not space time :An apparently sound argument leading to a contradiction

the problem is Most paradoxes stem from some kind of self-reference.

For some people in 1642 traveling around the would was a paradox because the earth was flat.  subsequently that was proven wrong.

Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: laklost on April 30, 2009, 02:56:45 PM
Well here is a little picture that I created in the last few minutes.  I now see the one above mine which makes perfect sense and is the same point that I am trying to get across, and is a little bit better then mine.  But here goes anyways.

Basically the blue boxes on both the lines occurred at the same time.  The line the 815er's taking from 2004 to 1977 notice is not going back in time. As in they are still living there present which just happens to be other people's (who live in 2004) past.

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i216/drumn4life0789/LOST.jpg)

High five from Lak for that TISCS!!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: shadow on April 30, 2009, 03:10:37 PM
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

A. Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is paradox.
B. It is a paradox because time is linear.
C. Since time is linear, time travel is not possible.

Since "C" is false (Time Travel is possible in the Lostverse), B is false. Since B is false, A must be false, too.

Therefore, being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is NOT a paradox.

QED.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on April 30, 2009, 03:16:52 PM
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:  paradox (fr. neut. of paradoxos contrary to expectation, fr. para- + dokein to think)  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion.  2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true.  B.  a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true.  C. an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises.   3.  something (as a person, condition, or act) with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases.  

I agree with Novashannon -- I don't see how Daniel dying in 1977 and then being with the Freighter Folk in 2004 could not fit this definition of "paradox."  (especially 2A.)

Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!)  
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: shadow on April 30, 2009, 03:41:05 PM
Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

No, the rules and definitions are not "non-existent", they just vary slightly according to the way the writers have laid out the consistent universe Lost is taking place in.

Think of it this way:

You have no problem understanding that "Kate Austin" is played by Evangaline Lilly and that "Kate" only exists in the universe of a TV show. By the same token, there are things that exist in the TV show that do not exist elsewhere. Time travel, for example. Since time travel exists in "Lost", you cannot use the basic example of a Lostie time travelling as an example of a paradox.

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!) 

If Daniel turned around and shot and killed Eloise.

It is a fact that Eloise exists at an aged state after the last scene of "The Variable". Thus, if Daniel would have killed her, something we "know" couldn't have happened, it would be a paradox.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on April 30, 2009, 03:53:36 PM
Basically I see a paradox like this. 

 Miles being in the same time line as baby miles is not a paradox because nothing is contradicting anything at this time. 

If Miles kills his baby self then that would be a paradox because in order for old Miles to be there baby Miles had to grow old so that he could time travel to 1974
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 03:54:09 PM
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:  paradox (fr. neut. of paradoxos contrary to expectation, fr. para- + dokein to think)  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion.  2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true.  B.  a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true.  C. an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises.   3.  something (as a person, condition, or act) with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases.  

I agree with Novashannon -- I don't see how Daniel dying in 1977 and then being with the Freighter Folk in 2004 could not fit this definition of "paradox."  (especially 2A.)

This is not a paradox because he was on the frieghter in 2004, and then went back to 1977 FROM 2004. When he went back to 1977 it is his present.  Old daniel died in 1977 but the Daniel we saw playing the piano, will eventually go on the frieghter and get to the island and then he will die. If as some have speculated Daniel was born on the island then at the time of his death in 1977 there is two daniels and the young daniel will eventually be prodded by his mother to learn science, hook up with widmore and be enlisted for the freighter

Lets say 1970 something Dan is born,  grows up and goes to the island and back in time to 1974.  they are just showing us what happened in 1977

Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!)  
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 03:58:30 PM
2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true

who's common sense are you referring to when developing your ideas about time travel?

Isnt that sentence a bit of an oxymoron, how can you have common sense in regards to somehting that isnt possible such as time travel,

Common sense would say that if you stand in a breathing dragons fire you will get burned,  since we know Dragons are make believe what does common sense have to do with it?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 03:59:44 PM
And lets assume that time travel is possible and common sense rules,

what is the logic that makes daniel dying in 1977 a paradox

Or if you prefer what is the contradiction?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on April 30, 2009, 04:01:59 PM
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:  paradox (fr. neut. of paradoxos contrary to expectation, fr. para- + dokein to think)  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion.  2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true.  B.  a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true.  C. an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises.   3.  something (as a person, condition, or act) with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases.  

I agree with Novashannon -- I don't see how Daniel dying in 1977 and then being with the Freighter Folk in 2004 could not fit this definition of "paradox."  (especially 2A.)

This is not a paradox because he was on the frieghter in 2004, and then went back to 1977 FROM 2004. When he went back to 1977 it is his present.  Old daniel died in 1977 but the Daniel we saw playing the piano, will eventually go on the frieghter and get to the island and then he will die. If as some have speculated Daniel was born on the island then at the time of his death in 1977 there is two daniels and the young daniel will eventually be prodded by his mother to learn science, hook up with widmore and be enlisted for the freighter

Lets say 1970 something Dan is born,  grows up and goes to the island and back in time to 1974.  they are just showing us what happened in 1977

Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!)  

Let me try it this way.  When Daniel was on the freighter in 2007 (or 2008... whichever it was), let's say he was exactly 35 years old.  When he was in 1977, he was 38 years old (having lived three years since traveling back to 1974).  So, when he died in 1977, it doesn't impact his 2007 self because that was his past.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 04:03:57 PM
2004 he was on the friegter,

irrelevant becuase I agreew ith you totally anyway.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 04:10:15 PM
These time travel threads are always bumpin,
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 04:11:41 PM
cause nobody knows what the heck is going on but we cling to our theories anyway.. lol
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on April 30, 2009, 04:14:50 PM
it is not a paradox for two iterations of the same person to be in the same time for the simple fact that your cells are constantly dying and replicating, there for you are NOT the same person you were say a year ago, you are more like a copy of a copy of a copy that is degrading exponentially each time.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 04:18:39 PM
it is not a paradox for two iterations of the same person to be in the same time for the simple fact that your cells are constantly dying and replicating, there for you are NOT the same person you were say a year ago, you are more like a copy of a copy of a copy that is degrading exponentially each time.
yes... I was saying this somewhere else, but, um, with less good words.  :-\ That baby Miles and adult Miles can co-exist because they're different consciousnesses.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 04:37:47 PM
My point is always...... if.....I just don't know if Faraday is dead maybe he is

I was told that the TPTB said there would not be an alternate future/time line correct?

So if Faraday...Jack or whoever makes sure that the hatch is not needed or is never built

Desmond never goes to the Island he never forgets to push the button the plane never crash on the Island

But there is a existing timeline where that happens the it that starts with the building of the hatch in 1977
           

       A.) What we know Hatch built plane crashes
IN 1977
      B.) Hatch is never built plane doesn't crashes on Island (maybe it crashes someplace else and they all die? or land in LA and live)

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct? That would be a circle correct?

weather that is a paradox or lostadox or a sledgeadox it would still be a circle....the events would just repeat

So my theory would be that Ellie might have a understanding of this and a clue might have been when she talks to Des when he is buying a ring for Penny.....
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Dharma Bum on April 30, 2009, 04:43:44 PM
Woah, getting my head around this thread alone is taking something!

I can see where the circle or loop or repeating theories come from... I mean, to me at least there were a few subtle references from Daniel and Eloise that they had in fact 'done it before' so to speak. One that comes to mind is when he's talking to young Charlotte and says something like "I've tried to avoid telling you this, I didn't think I could change things" .. I'm paraphrasing here.

Obviously this isn't an airtight theory, but not many are in Lostworld I guess!  :D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 05:02:06 PM
Then there is this:

[Whirring, hammering, drilling]

MILES: Are we... waiting for something?

[Vehicle approaching]

FARADAY: Right on time.

[Turns off engine] .....Chang arrives



That to me is someone who knew what was happening and reminiscent of Des and Charlie out side Widmore office or MS. HAWKING and Desmond when he was buying the ring
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Dharma Bum on April 30, 2009, 05:03:59 PM
Then there is this:

[Whirring, hammering, drilling]

MILES: Are we... waiting for something?

[Vehicle approaching]

FARADAY: Right on time.

[Turns off engine] .....Chang arrives



That to me is someone who knew what was happening and reminiscent of Des and Charlie out side Widmore office or MS. HAWKING and Desmond when he was buying the ring


Yeah, that was another one I noticed too!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 05:04:47 PM
My point is always...... if.....I just don't know if Faraday is dead maybe he is

I was told that the TPTB said there would not be an alternate future/time line correct?

So if Faraday...Jack or whoever makes sure that the hatch is not needed or is never built

Desmond never goes to the Island he never forgets to push the button the plane never crash on the Island

But there is a existing timeline where that happens the it that starts with the building of the hatch in 1977
           

       A.) What we know Hatch built plane crashes
IN 1977
      B.) Hatch is never built plane doesn't crashes on Island (maybe it crashes someplace else and they all die? or land in LA and live)

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct? That would be a circle correct?

weather that is a paradox or lostadox or a sledgeadox it would still be a circle....the events would just repeat

So my theory would be that Ellie might have a understanding of this and a clue might have been when she talks to Des when he is buying a ring for Penny.....

I believe some of my difficulty is your partial english,  you are spanish I am thinking?

It is not a circle,

not a loop,

not repeating,

the events we are witnessing only happened once, they only happend in 1977, I am of the opinion that as a result of killing Daniel Eloise is informed by soemone of what will take place over the next 30 years up til 2007. that is how she knows so much of what will happen although I/we do not why she is so convinced that it has to happen that way for whatever reason she is convinced that Daniel must get shot by her in her past.

What we are seeing is the writers showing us what happened in 1977 as they showed us in season one what happend to the survivors of flight 815.

When they showed us Desmond going into the hospital that is the true and only present  circa  2008, that (I beleive)  is the only point at which any events can change.  the events of the past will not keep happening we are just seeing what happened, daniel was only killed once, sayid only shot ben once,

Another problem I have is that I find myself agreeing with some of your points yet we seem to be on two differnt pages all the time.

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct

Not quite as above,  more like.......

  

In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened)
- 2004 daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- daniel is born and eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- daniel studies at oxford
- desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- daniel goes to the island for the first time
- ocenaic 6 get off island
- eloise is old
- desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time
- mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop  no repeats.



Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: james_sawyer on April 30, 2009, 05:23:44 PM
very very upset faraday is gone ..really liked him a lott  :'(
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Dharma Bum on April 30, 2009, 05:32:24 PM
I think the very fact that there are no rules or boundaries, because time travel isn't possible, make saying things can or can't happen a certain way quite redundant.

The fact that it seems to be turning out that everyone is related to one another is quite bizarre also. In this episode you could tell there was going to be some sort of Darth Vader type "I am your father" moment for Daniel. It is formulaic at the same time as not being formulaic.. Argh! Maybe that's a paradox too!  :D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on April 30, 2009, 05:37:43 PM
My point is always...... if.....I just don't know if Faraday is dead maybe he is

I was told that the TPTB said there would not be an alternate future/time line correct?

So if Faraday...Jack or whoever makes sure that the hatch is not needed or is never built

Desmond never goes to the Island he never forgets to push the button the plane never crash on the Island

But there is a existing timeline where that happens the it that starts with the building of the hatch in 1977
           

       A.) What we know Hatch built plane crashes
IN 1977
      B.) Hatch is never built plane doesn't crashes on Island (maybe it crashes someplace else and they all die? or land in LA and live)

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct? That would be a circle correct?

weather that is a paradox or lostadox or a sledgeadox it would still be a circle....the events would just repeat

So my theory would be that Ellie might have a understanding of this and a clue might have been when she talks to Des when he is buying a ring for Penny.....

I believe some of my difficulty is your partial english,  you are spanish I am thinking?

It is not a circle,

not a loop,

not repeating,

the events we are witnessing only happened once, they only happend in 1977, I am of the opinion that as a result of killing Daniel Eloise is informed by soemone of what will take place over the next 30 years up til 2007. that is how she knows so much of what will happen although I/we do not why she is so convinced that it has to happen that way for whatever reason she is convinced that Daniel must get shot by her in her past.

What we are seeing is the writers showing us what happened in 1977 as they showed us in season one what happend to the survivors of flight 815.

When they showed us Desmond going into the hospital that is the true and only present  circa  2008, that (I beleive)  is the only point at which any events can change.  the events of the past will not keep happening we are just seeing what happened, daniel was only killed once, sayid only shot ben once,

Another problem I have is that I find myself agreeing with some of your points yet we seem to be on two differnt pages all the time.

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct

Not quite as above,  more like.......

  

In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened)
- 2004 daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- daniel is born and eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- daniel studies at oxford
- desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- daniel goes to the island for the first time
- ocenaic 6 get off island
- eloise is old
- desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time
- mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop  no repeats.


I think part of the issue is perspective.  As viewers, we are looking at this as if it is an ant farm, so to speak.  We are seeing the interactions and the traveling and we think of the fact that Daniel is born, goes into the world and does his thing, goes back in time, and gets killed... but there is little Daniel who has yet to grow up and go through all that.  From that perspective, it appears to be circular.

However, if you think about this from any one person's perspective, it is all linear.  The only thing that Daniel knows is his life as he goes on... at age 10, he knows everything that has happened to him previously, but not the experiences that have yet to occur... same at age 20.  Even if he traveled in the future and saw how things turned out, he only "knows" the experiences that he has had.  It is from this perspective that there is no loop.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on April 30, 2009, 05:40:08 PM
Quote
I believe some of my difficulty is your partial English,  you are Spanish I am thinking?

Not quite sure what that means?

It is kind of a wise assy thing to say?  I am off to work but when I get back I will dumb things down for you so that you will better understand.......


I know that I have never been a key board tough guy with you
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on April 30, 2009, 05:42:47 PM
I think the very fact that there are no rules or boundaries, because time travel isn't possible, make saying things can or can't happen a certain way quite redundant.

The fact that it seems to be turning out that everyone is related to one another is quite bizarre also. In this episode you could tell there was going to be some sort of Darth Vader type "I am your father" moment for Daniel. It is formulaic at the same time as not being formulaic.. Argh! Maybe that's a paradox too!  :D

I've seen this perspective in a few different threads from a few different folks.  I would like to differentiate between what is possible and what is currently known.  With today's science / knowledge, we don't know how to "time travel" (the very definition of the phrase is actually a point of debate), but that doesn't mean it is impossible... it just means we don't know how to do it.  There are real-life scientific theories that say with a large amount of imperical evidence that "time travel" is possible... and there's a host of impacts because of it.  Best I can tell, the writers do a decent job of researching the real-life scientific data and trying to apply it as if it were possible today.  They're very likely wrong on a ton of stuff, but I do think they are trying to base the information (even the debates on what is and isn't possible) on real research.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 05:48:03 PM
Quote
I believe some of my difficulty is your partial English,  you are Spanish I am thinking?

Not quite sure what that means?

It is kind of a wise assy thing to say?  I am off to work but when I get back I will dumb things down for you so that you will better understand.......


I know that I have never been a key board tough guy with you

All it means is I think you are spanish, I come to that conlusion by your use of english,  (Am I wrong?) which has confused me sometimes, in the sense I think I know what you are trying to say but it doesnt come out clear,

in no way did I mean your opinions are not valid or wrong I am just having trouble understanding what your opinion is,  as I said it could be that your theory is so profound it is beyond me but I felt I have been dumbing my theory down for you and you still do not understand,  there have been a few conversations where we have argued this very point and by the end of it we seem to be on the same page and then in a later post you contradict your self to be against my opinion, I would love to totally understand what you mean by some of the things you are speculating but just when I think I do, I am confused again.

In general I believe that it is impossible to convey in words this complicated a subject and I am sure if we were face to face we would at the very least understand what the others position was, I doubt we would agree but at least we would know what the other person meant.

Not trying to be a keyboard tough guy or other tough guy with you and I apologize if I offended you.



Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 05:51:53 PM
He say you engleesh are no goo', meng.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: otros on April 30, 2009, 05:53:07 PM
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

A. Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is paradox.
B. It is a paradox because time is linear.
C. Since time is linear, time travel is not possible.

Since "C" is false (Time Travel is possible in the Lostverse), B is false. Since B is false, A must be false, too.

Therefore, being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is NOT a paradox.

QED.

your demo is wrong
let be:
p = Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is paradox
q = time is linear
r = time travel is not possible

your argument can be written like this:

P ^ (q => p) ^ (q => r) ^ -r.

now, saying that [-r ^ (q => r)] => -q is known as the consequent fallacy (the name may be wrong it's a free translation from spanish (my main language) "falacia del consecuente" .

C is false, but that doesn't mean that time is not linear, so you can't say that B is false.

After saying that, I concur with your point, I think being two ages at the same time is a paradox because time travel is not possible (in reality) but if you say that time travel is real (obviously in Lost it is) I don't see the paradox here.

@bostonlost: I think you get the circle because you are going back in time as an observer, if you follow only the Ellie's or Dan's timelines they are born and later die, no circle or anything. In 2008, Ellie is alive and Dan is dead and time moves on.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: ericd543 on April 30, 2009, 05:53:18 PM
In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened) O6 ARRIVAL at the island
- 2004 daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- daniel is born and eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- daniel studies at oxford
- desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- daniel goes to the island for the first time
- ocenaic 6 get off island
- eloise is old
- desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time O6 DEPARTURE for the island
- mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop  no repeats.

I thought I could help clarify your point by distinguishing between the departing and arrival events for Jack, Kate & Hugo. The O6 got split up and Locke, Ben and Sun are still in 2007. I agree with what you say, and what TPTB have said about having only one timeline.

I think some of this "done this before, stuck in a loop" business comes from characters with knowledge of the future. Knowledge of the future, like Charlotte's memory of Dan speaking to her as a child, negates free will. Dan was driven in some way and had to have that conversation with her. And that's what bothers me about the Lostverse version of a single time line.

Personally, if I was experiencing 1977 for a second time I would contact my 16 year old self to tell the younger me a few things. I don't see a paradox with young and old versions of yourself being in the same room at the same time, BUT ONLY IF the older version already has a memory of the meeting. "Oh yeah, I WAS that weird guy who claimed to be future me."

And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on April 30, 2009, 06:14:50 PM
It isn't a theory it is logic....


If that Hatch is built and Des goes to the Island and Dan is dead then that creates a circle......


Where my theory kicks in is that this has been going on for some time now and Ellie and Widmore are the because of this


Remember when she confronts Desmond she tells him "you don't buy the ring"

This wasn't a Jedi mind trick she has seen this before...... she has lived it before she sends Dan to the Island to die because she has in the past



Its TIME TRAVEL!  You CAN'T apply logic to it.  There is no logic in time travel.  It is complete fiction!  TPTB can do whatever they want with it.  We must resist the urge to impose our own views of time travel on the show.  That is not our place.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on April 30, 2009, 06:35:15 PM
Everyone should just breathe for a second.  Emotions are running high and some are becoming a little prickly.

At the end of the day, it is a fictional show!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on April 30, 2009, 06:39:47 PM
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

I think we can all agree that a paradox is a self-contodiction.  Right?  I think that the pressing question is can a paradox exist?  To some people, a paradox means "nope can't happen.  Anything that LOST does that is a paradoz means it is somehow not the case.  It does not happen."  But if you say yes to that question, the you would say "yes a paradox can exist and yes LOST can intoduce paradoxes all they want"  Where are we on that one?  Nova, I didn't mean to sound like I am talking to just you by quoting you, I just wanted the reader of my post to understand where I started my thought.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 06:42:20 PM
Um...can I ask a stupid question? I brought my shield and armor in case y'all are gonna throw stuff at me...lol....but...

why does it matter if it's a paradox or not?

I'm sorry, there's all this argument over it, but maybe I missed where it all started, I just don't see the relevance.  :-\
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 06:44:39 PM
I guess it's as relevant as arguing about anything else going on in a fictitious television show. Specially time travel. Because time travel sucks without Morlocks.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 06:48:07 PM
lol...well, time-travel I can understand because it's a theme on the show, but I was just wondering where paradox came in and why everybody's talking about it...I know I must sound dumb, but I'm just trying to understand the argument here, since so many people are discussing it.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on April 30, 2009, 06:48:33 PM
Um...can I ask a stupid question? I brought my shield and armor in case y'all are gonna throw stuff at me...lol....but...

why does it matter if it's a paradox or not?

I'm sorry, there's all this argument over it, but maybe I missed where it all started, I just don't see the relevance.  :-\

You know, I've been sitting here mulling on the same thing.  I think the word "paradox" has everyone up in arms.  Since we all seem to be working on different definitions, I think we can focus on what the underlying point of the discussion is... not that I know what it is... don't mean to state I'm that smart... just that the arguments seem to be on the definition of a word rather than the real issues at hand.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 06:49:11 PM
I think you just murdered their fun, Mrs. A.

In cold blood, no less.  :P
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on April 30, 2009, 06:50:27 PM
I think you just murdered their fun, Mrs. A.

In cold blood, no less.  :P

 ;D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on April 30, 2009, 06:54:23 PM
Um...can I ask a stupid question? I brought my shield and armor in case y'all are gonna throw stuff at me...lol....but...

why does it matter if it's a paradox or not?

I'm sorry, there's all this argument over it, but maybe I missed where it all started, I just don't see the relevance.  :-\

I hear ya.  This is kind of where I was going with my previous post
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 06:57:50 PM
Aw, I'm sorry, guys! I'm a cold-blooded thread killer.  :-X

I wasn't trying to make anybody feel bad about it, I'm just honestly wondering. Cause I wanna argue too! lol
But I can't argue something I don't understand and I just didn't know where it came from or where it was going. I know last week we had the "definition of a paradox" thread and I just had no idea where it came from, or why it mattered.  :-\ Ah! I'm just trying to learn stuff!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 07:02:08 PM
But I can't argue something I don't understand

Never stopped me...
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 07:04:18 PM
But I can't argue something I don't understand

Never stopped me...
Really? I had no idea... you always seem to know what you're talking about. Dang eloquence!!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: GUTZandRAGE on April 30, 2009, 07:14:44 PM
And that's the trick, innit?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 07:44:29 PM
well, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..."  ;)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 08:11:26 PM
well, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..."  ;)

I love that line,
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on April 30, 2009, 08:13:20 PM
well, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..."  ;)

I love that line,
My mom taught me that saying when I was 12. Twelve!! Yeah, she's a good mom.  ;D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 11:06:22 PM
In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened) O6 ARRIVAL at the island
- 2004 Daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- Daniel is born and Eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- Daniel studies at oxford
- Desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- Daniel goes to the island for the first time
- oceanic 6 get off island
- Eloise is old
- Desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time O6 DEPARTURE for the island
- Mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts Eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop No repeats.

I thought I could help clarify your point by distinguishing between the departing and arrival events for Jack, Kate & Hugo. The O6 got split up and Locke, Ben and Sun are still in 2007. I agree with what you say, and what TPTB have said about having only one timeline.

I think some of this "done this before, stuck in a loop" business comes from characters with knowledge of the future. Knowledge of the future, like Charlotte's memory of Dan speaking to her as a child, negates free will. Dan was driven in some way and had to have that conversation with her. And that's what bothers me about the Lostverse version of a single time line.

Personally, if I was experiencing 1977 for a second time I would contact my 16 year old self to tell the younger me a few things. I don't see a paradox with young and old versions of yourself being in the same room at the same time, BUT ONLY IF the older version already has a memory of the meeting. "Oh yeah, I WAS that weird guy who claimed to be future me."

And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(

I disagree with your interpretation, for the reason I do believe they have free will in 1977, it is their present as well as the other people around them, (Dharma, hostiles etc...) What I think the writers have been showing us and what is meant by whatever happened happened is these are the choices they made in 1977. They are not limited to what they can and cannot do, they can do whatever they want, like lie to the DI and say you crashed, become members of said initiative and choose to listen to Juliet who says "you should go and help kate with ben". Those are all choices Sawyer made, what he chose to do. and what he chooses to do has a direct impact on his surroundings, the thing is that the in 2004 when they boarded oceanic 815 in Australia, they had already been back to 1977 and there acts in 1977 shaped the events that determined how the world turned out, just as you and I do every day, if we weren't alive anymore, say we both died yesterday, That would directly affect what happens in the world in some shape or another. I realize I'm no Barack Obama, but it would definitely have an impact on my immediate family at least,  you can say without a doubt the world would have been different had we still been alive, but we are not alive, that is what happened.

In that same sense what ever the losties do in 1977 has already happened when they boarded that plane in Australia, we are just being shown what they did, the "choices they made.  I suppose that the 77'ers will reunite with the other 315'ers in present time eventually and then events can be altered, at least that is what I felt was a pretty sound theory until Daniel brings up this "We Can" attitude, so who knows.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on April 30, 2009, 11:48:42 PM
I agree that that they have free will in 1977 because it is their present, but Charles, Eloise, Richard, and the rest of the Others in 2004 remember what happened in 1977 and it will not change because to them Daniel and the rest of the 815ers/freighties have already occurred in 1977. 

Does that make sense to anyone, cause sometimes I think it does but when I type it, it seems wrong. 

Also I believe that the reason why Daniel knew when Chang would get there or that something was going to happen at the Swan in a matter of hours was because he has gone to the future.  Remember when he was talking to Charles at his house.   He said something to the effect of " I even did the experiments on myself."  This could also explain why he was so sad to see the plane crash.   He did not necesarrily remember what happened because something was wrong with his memory at the time, which is confirmed by Eloise when she tells Daniel that " Even if she did call he would not remember.   But he was still sad because his subconcious remembered that something happened.

hahaha Maybe??????????
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 30, 2009, 11:57:25 PM
I agree that that they have free will in 1977 because it is their present, but Charles, Eloise, Richard, and the rest of the Others in 2004 remember what happened in 1977 and it will not change because to them Daniel and the rest of the 815ers/freighties have already occurred in 1977. 

Not sure what you mean by occured, but the nothing will change is due to the fact the the choices they make in 77 are the choices they always made in 77. How 2007 Widmore and Eloise remember it happening.

Does that make sense to anyone, cause sometimes I think it does but when I type it, it seems wrong. 

Also I believe that the reason why Daniel knew when Chang would get there or that something was going to happen at the Swan in a matter of hours was because he has gone to the future.  Remember when he was talking to Charles at his house.   He said something to the effect of " I even did the experiments on myself."  This could also explain why he was so sad to see the plane crash.   He did not necesarrily remember what happened because something was wrong with his memory at the time, which is confirmed by Eloise when she tells Daniel that " Even if she did call he would not remember.   But he was still sad because his subconcious remembered that something happened.

hahaha Maybe??????????

But when he was talking to charles it was in 2004 and the incident was in 1977, so are you saying he went to the past in 2004, and scrambled his mind.

Because if you were saying that then why would he have to go to ann arbor at all, why not skip straight to the variable and blow up the swan in 1974?

His memory was healed before the tiem flashes so if he knew about the purge and it was 1974 then why not save them right away?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on May 01, 2009, 12:01:09 AM
Ok maybe he did not know about the Swan Station until he went to Ann Arbor and did more experiments but maybe he knew about the plane already because when he was experimenting on hiim self in the 2000s he went into his future, and learned of the plane crash.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 01, 2009, 12:02:08 AM
Ok maybe he did not know about the Swan Station until he went to Ann Arbor and did more experiments but maybe he knew about the plane already because when he was experimenting on hiim self in the 2000s he went into his future, and learned of the plane crash.

Ok, I'm down with this.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Bostonlost on May 01, 2009, 04:32:25 AM
SQUIRT199

I actually enjoy debating this with you and if I got sensitive I apologize....


To reiterate I never said that this will happen....


My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...I never said this would happen? How the hell do I know what will happen? I am trying to use logic.     Because there is a sense of logic with time travel as crazy as that sounds.

Look Dan says you can't change the past in a way he is right and wrong

If a person is always in their present, no matter what time he or she is in, then this person can change the future. In 1977 they will change the events of 2004....They are going into the past to change events in the future, which may or may not be their past, because they are always in the present.


I believe in that..... I believe that to be possible

But what if events do change then that is a alternate time line

If the hatch is not needed and the electromagnetic energy is contained or whatever. Then flight 815 never crashes on the Island (the shows theory) the it either lands in LA or maybe crashes someplace else and they all die (wouldn't that be a twist). Either way that would be a new history a alternate time line
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Dharma Bum on May 01, 2009, 06:41:15 AM
I can definitely see where you're coming from, Bostonlost. I may be in the minority, but, like someone said, it is only a fictional show after all, and everything is pure speculation.

I'll be very interested to see how they end this season, as with a whole season to go, they seem to be answering a lot of questions in this season. Leads me to believe that there are still some BIG twists in store here...
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: ukslim on May 01, 2009, 07:19:00 AM
My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...

The words that stand out for me here are "if" and "relive".

"If"
We know the hatch gets built. There is no alternate universe. What happened, happened. We've seen the hatch, therefore it gets built. No "if" about it.

Lost's storytelling jumped around in time even before the characters started time traveling. If we saw something in a flashback or a flash forward, we knew that event was set in stone. Characters time traveling does not change that.

In The Variable, Daniel gets the idea that you can change the past - but I really think he's wrong.

Relive
Daniel (like everyone else) lives his life exactly once.
He is born, educated, works, goes to the island, jumps back in time, and is finally killed by the young woman who will become his mother. This happens exactly once, and nothing can change the way it pans out.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Mommainternet on May 01, 2009, 07:59:07 AM
as he was walking in to the camp, I was yelling at my tv, PUT THE GUN DOWN DUDE! YOU ARE WAY OUTNUMBERED!

I was thinking the same thing!  And really, it seemed like such an un-Daniel thing to do.  Isn't he more the type to walk up to one of the hostiles with his hands up saying, "I come in peace" ??

My thinking, too, you wouldn't walk into a hostile camp holding a gun, especially for Dan who earlier asked for a beginner's gun to carry.  And Dan seems too intelligent not to walk in his arms up in the air as a show of surrender rather than a gun as a show of force.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 01, 2009, 11:45:08 AM
SQUIRT199

I actually enjoy debating this with you and if I got sensitive I apologize....


To reiterate I never said that this will happen....


My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....then she WILL rear him to be a scientist, (as they showed us in the variable) then 815 WILLcrash, (as they showed us in the series premiere) then Daniel/miles/Naomi/Charlotte WILL come to the island, (as they showed us at the end of season 3) then the 815'ers WILL leave the island and arrive in 2004, then they WILL board flight 316 and end up in 77,  it is at this point your confusion arise,

You remember the scene where hawking slapped widmore in the most recent episode?  that is Present day,  Daniel in 77 is in his present timeline which happens to be 1977 but the whatever happened happened applies to everything we have seen up until Widmore gets slapped,   there is no repetition just what happened.

etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...I never said this would happen? How the hell do I know what will happen? We do know WHAT WILL HAPPEN because they have already shown us in the first three season prior to time travel,  those events happen in 2004 what we are seeing now is what happened in 1977  I am trying to use logic. As am I   because there is a sense of logic with time travel as crazy as that sounds. 

Look Dan says you can't change the past in a way he is right and wrong

If a person is always in their present, no matter what time he or she is in, then this person can change the future. In 1977 they will change the events of 2004 No they wont because that is what always happened.  no matter what they do in 1977 when we see the events of season one and two those choices made in 1977 have already been done, for instance even when they boarded the plane in 2004, History knew that they had already been in 1977, our losties however did not know this, because they had not experienced it yet.  For instance if they had done something so profound as to change the world like becoming president of the US in 1980 or whatever, then if they looked in a history book from 1980 they would ses Hugo's picture as president for instance.  whatever choices they make as we are shown, (sawyer knocking out Phil, the shootout at the Dhrma corral,  already happened when they boarded that plane in 2004 and if you look at my post last night I explain much the same thing as I have here, pls take a look and critique it if it doesn't make sense.....They are going into the past to change events in the future, which may or may not be their past, because they are always in the present.


I believe in that..... I believe that to be possible

But what if events do change then that is a alternate time line It cant change because as documented in season 1 -3 the hatch is built, Desmond comes to the island, radsinsky shoots himself, they all get off and come back,

I may be alone on this but the only point in time that any events can change is at the point we see Mrs. Hawking slap widmore or the the other 316ers on the island, frank sun etc...   I believe that when we see Episodes with Ben and Locke that is present day or future from 1977, and when we see widmore and hawking in the hospital that is also present day, so events can only changed by choices made after that time, everything we have been SHOWN up until those points has already happened (whatever happened happened,  however now Daniel ahs added he was wrong, I don't know what to think anymore but am sticking with this because that is the only present day that has been presented on the show.   to finish I would say that the most future point on island we have been shown is Ilaana knocking out lapidus and widmore getting slapped by Hawking,

Who's with me?


If the hatch is not needed and the electromagnetic energy is contained or whatever. Then flight 815 never crashes on the Island (the shows theory) the it either lands in LA or maybe crashes someplace else and they all die (wouldn't that be a twist). Either way that would be a new history a alternate time line
My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...

The words that stand out for me here are "if" and "relive".

"If"
We know the hatch gets built. There is no alternate universe. What happened, happened. We've seen the hatch, therefore it gets built. No "if" about it.

Lost's storytelling jumped around in time even before the characters started time traveling. If we saw something in a flashback or a flash forward, we knew that event was set in stone. Characters time traveling does not change that.

In The Variable, Daniel gets the idea that you can change the past - but I really think he's wrong.

Relive
Daniel (like everyone else) lives his life exactly once.
He is born, educated, works, goes to the island, jumps back in time, and is finally killed by the young woman who will become his mother. This happens exactly once, and nothing can change the way it pans out.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 01, 2009, 11:45:50 AM
My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...

The words that stand out for me here are "if" and "relive".

"If"
We know the hatch gets built. There is no alternate universe. What happened, happened. We've seen the hatch, therefore it gets built. No "if" about it.

Lost's storytelling jumped around in time even before the characters started time traveling. If we saw something in a flashback or a flash forward, we knew that event was set in stone. Characters time traveling does not change that.

In The Variable, Daniel gets the idea that you can change the past - but I really think he's wrong.

Relive
Daniel (like everyone else) lives his life exactly once.
He is born, educated, works, goes to the island, jumps back in time, and is finally killed by the young woman who will become his mother. This happens exactly once, and nothing can change the way it pans out.
I agree, thanks for the back up
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: rhythm on May 01, 2009, 01:51:55 PM
SQUIRT199

I actually enjoy debating this with you and if I got sensitive I apologize....


To reiterate I never said that this will happen....


My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...I never said this would happen? How the hell do I know what will happen? I am trying to use logic.     Because there is a sense of logic with time travel as crazy as that sounds.

Look Dan says you can't change the past in a way he is right and wrong

If a person is always in their present, no matter what time he or she is in, then this person can change the future. In 1977 they will change the events of 2004....They are going into the past to change events in the future, which may or may not be their past, because they are always in the present.


I believe in that..... I believe that to be possible

But what if events do change then that is a alternate time line

If the hatch is not needed and the electromagnetic energy is contained or whatever. Then flight 815 never crashes on the Island (the shows theory) the it either lands in LA or maybe crashes someplace else and they all die (wouldn't that be a twist). Either way that would be a new history a alternate time line
And THEN it would be a paradox.  But we don't know if things will change yet.  And I believe that is what was causing most of us (well at least me) to scratch our heads when you were claiming "paradox".  Because it seemed as if you were saying that the timeline was already contradicting itself.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: ericd543 on May 01, 2009, 10:04:50 PM
And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(

I disagree with your interpretation, for the reason I do believe they have free will in 1977, it is their present as well as the other people around them, (Dharma, hostiles etc...) What I think the writers have been showing us and what is meant by whatever happened happened is these are the choices they made in 1977. They are not limited to what they can and cannot do, they can do whatever they want, like lie to the DI and say you crashed, become members of said initiative and choose to listen to Juliet who says "you should go and help kate with ben". Those are all choices Sawyer made, what he chose to do. and what he chooses to do has a direct impact on his surroundings, the thing is that the in 2004 when they boarded oceanic 815 in Australia, they had already been back to 1977 and there acts in 1977 shaped the events that determined how the world turned out, just as you and I do every day, if we weren't alive anymore, say we both died yesterday, That would directly affect what happens in the world in some shape or another. I realize I'm no Barack Obama, but it would definitely have an impact on my immediate family at least,  you can say without a doubt the world would have been different had we still been alive, but we are not alive, that is what happened.

In that same sense what ever the losties do in 1977 has already happened when they boarded that plane in Australia, we are just being shown what they did, the "choices" they made.  I suppose that the 77'ers will reunite with the other 315'ers in present time eventually and then events can be altered, at least that is what I felt was a pretty sound theory until Daniel brings up this "We Can" attitude, so who knows.

Could the time travelling Losties make a choice that would prevent flight 815 from crashing on the island? Can they kill someone like young Miles or young Ben who they know lives to be older? Could Jack have killed Radzinski in the motorpool shootout even though we've been told he died in the hatch? Can they tell the truth to the DI? Can they prevent the purge from happening? Can they prevent the Swan Station from being built? Can they leave the island and meet their younger selves even if they don't already have a memory of that happening? I think the answer to all of the above is "no". So it seems to me there are a lot of things they can not do.

My argument is based on the premise "what happened, happened" and that LOST will not introduce alternative timelines to the story we are being told. I do not see how free will and time travel can mix without alternative timelines. In the Lostverse we have time travel, we do not have alternative timelines, so the time travelling characters do not have free will, IMHO.

While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

I thought I had an argument for why everything had to be predetermined, even the minutia of their day, but I lost it. Stupid brain cells!

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: shadow on May 03, 2009, 12:33:22 PM
While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

Jack was free to help or not help young Ben.
Sayid was free to shoot or not shoot young Ben.

Both of them had free will to do what they wanted. Their bad assumption was that their choices would change the outcome when, in fact, they enabled it.

As was said in "The Matrix": "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

It's a lot like professional wrestling. The outcomes of the matches are generally predetermined in order to move a plotline forward, but the wrestlers are allowed to freestyle their moves throughout the match.

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Or they will succeed in executing Daniel's plan which will cause 815 to crash. That's the whole point of "Whatever happened, happened." I am very curious to see if the writers stick with WHH or not.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 04, 2009, 02:40:56 PM
While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

Jack was free to help or not help young Ben.
Sayid was free to shoot or not shoot young Ben.

Both of them had free will to do what they wanted. Their bad assumption was that their choices would change the outcome when, in fact, they enabled it.

As was said in "The Matrix": "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

It's a lot like professional wrestling. The outcomes of the matches are generally predetermined in order to move a plotline forward, but the wrestlers are allowed to freestyle their moves throughout the match.

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Or they will succeed in executing Daniel's plan which will cause 815 to crash. That's the whole point of "Whatever happened, happened." I am very curious to see if the writers stick with WHH or not.

I'm glad you mentioned the Matrix in regards to this conversation.  I was just thinking that maybe Daniel knew that by coming back to the island and telling the losties that they can change the future is exactly what they needed to hear in order for them to walk the path that was always walked.  Almost like Neo.  We was told by the Oracle that he was NOT the One.  But that is exactly what he needed to hear in order to become the One.  Daniel may be playing the role of the Oracle in this case.  He is serving the position of his mother in making sure that whatever happened happens.  He could be telling Jack that he doesn't belong there and he can change things, because that starts a chain of events where he does in fact not change anything.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on May 04, 2009, 04:34:24 PM
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 04, 2009, 04:46:36 PM
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

That actualy makes perfect sense.  This is exacly what I have spent time posting about in other threads.  I'm with you on this.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: DaveDargo on May 04, 2009, 05:04:49 PM
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

So what they think they are doing/will do to try and change what happens is actually what they were supposed to do all along.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 04, 2009, 05:05:29 PM
And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(

I disagree with your interpretation, for the reason I do believe they have free will in 1977, it is their present as well as the other people around them, (Dharma, hostiles etc...) What I think the writers have been showing us and what is meant by whatever happened happened is these are the choices they made in 1977. They are not limited to what they can and cannot do, they can do whatever they want, like lie to the DI and say you crashed, become members of said initiative and choose to listen to Juliet who says "you should go and help kate with ben". Those are all choices Sawyer made, what he chose to do. and what he chooses to do has a direct impact on his surroundings, the thing is that the in 2004 when they boarded oceanic 815 in Australia, they had already been back to 1977 and there acts in 1977 shaped the events that determined how the world turned out, just as you and I do every day, if we weren't alive anymore, say we both died yesterday, That would directly affect what happens in the world in some shape or another. I realize I'm no Barack Obama, but it would definitely have an impact on my immediate family at least,  you can say without a doubt the world would have been different had we still been alive, but we are not alive, that is what happened.

In that same sense what ever the losties do in 1977 has already happened when they boarded that plane in Australia, we are just being shown what they did, the "choices" they made.  I suppose that the 77'ers will reunite with the other 315'ers in present time eventually and then events can be altered, at least that is what I felt was a pretty sound theory until Daniel brings up this "We Can" attitude, so who knows.

Could the time travelling Losties make a choice that would prevent flight 815 from crashing on the island? Can they kill someone like young Miles or young Ben who they know lives to be older? Could Jack have killed Radzinski in the motorpool shootout even though we've been told he died in the hatch? Can they tell the truth to the DI? Can they prevent the purge from happening? Can they prevent the Swan Station from being built? Can they leave the island and meet their younger selves even if they don't already have a memory of that happening? I think the answer to all of the above is "no". So it seems to me there are a lot of things they can not do.

My argument is based on the premise "what happened, happened" and that LOST will not introduce alternative timelines to the story we are being told. I do not see how free will and time travel can mix without alternative timelines. In the Lostverse we have time travel, we do not have alternative timelines, so the time travelling characters do not have free will, IMHO.

While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

I thought I had an argument for why everything had to be predetermined, even the minutia of their day, but I lost it. Stupid brain cells!

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Could the time travelling Losties make a choice that would prevent flight 815 from crashing on the island?    Perhaps they could have but they did not as we saw it crash in the pilot.

Can they kill someone like young Miles or young Ben who they know lives to be older? Yes they could have but they didnt, Sayid tried but failed, since we know Ben is alive in 2004

Could Jack have killed Radzinski in the motorpool shootout even though we've been told he died in the hatch?  he could have but he didnt since we know he died IN the swan (I dont catre how he died just satified that the bastard will)

Can they tell the truth to the DI?  Sayid tried, they thought he was looopy on bus fumes.

Can they prevent the purge from happening? they may try but that pit full of bodies was pretty convincing to me that they wont.

Can they prevent the Swan Station from being built?  they may try but will not suceed since we saw it was built in 2004

Can they leave the island and meet their younger selves even if they don't already have a memory of that happening?  This one just spins my head, they could go back in time and meet themselves but they could not (in lost time travel logic) do so and not remember it happening outside of contracting amnesia.

I think the answer to all of the above is "no". So it seems to me there are a lot of things they can not do. You are saying flat out no they cannot, I am sayig no they did not.  They could have but whatever chioces we see them make are the choices they already made.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 04, 2009, 05:06:15 PM
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

So what they think they are doing/will do to try and change what happens is actually what they were supposed to do all along.
forget supposed to and not supposed to, whatever they do is just what they did.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 04, 2009, 05:07:28 PM
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

Makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: tonysee200x on May 04, 2009, 05:50:17 PM
I don't know if the show has any time loops or circles...but if you want an example of what a time loop/circle would look like all you need to do is read this thread from the beginning.  -- good stuff everyone,, bravo

(for the record, record my vote - everything happens once and it has happened the way we have seen it)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 04, 2009, 05:56:48 PM
I don't know if the show has any time loops or circles...but if you want an example of what a time loop/circle would look like all you need to do is read this thread from the beginning.  -- good stuff everyone,, bravo

(for the record, record my vote - everything happens once and it has happened the way we have seen it)

Nice one,

Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 05, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
Squirt, not bad posts.  This is the line of thought that I fall under.  I think that when Dan went to young Charolet and told her not to come back, he said that he wanted to prevent it.  But I think his research with the DI folk made him realize that he must still do these things.  He sees that he must go back to the island and do the things that were always done.  I think him telling Jack and the others that they can change things is one of those things that he came to do.  He knows that telling them that will causes a chain of events that will lead to the Swan being built and Des pushing the button, etc etc.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on May 05, 2009, 05:31:19 PM
Squirt, not bad posts.  This is the line of thought that I fall under.  I think that when Dan went to young Charolet and told her not to come back, he said that he wanted to prevent it.  But I think his research with the DI folk made him realize that he must still do these things.  He sees that he must go back to the island and do the things that were always done.  I think him telling Jack and the others that they can change things is one of those things that he came to do.  He knows that telling them that will causes a chain of events that will lead to the Swan being built and Des pushing the button, etc etc.

I think this makes a lot of sense and represents the explanation that I am strong leaning towards.  However (there's that word)... this goes back to the discussion that is going on in another thread.  We know (or we think we know based on the Desmond-centric episode from Season 3) that Desmond has, in fact, "changed the past".  (The example on the other thread is when Desmond somehow knew that a bartender was about to be hit from having previously experiencing it and told him to duck... and the bartender did with the guy hitting Desmond instead.)  I think this falls under the "time will tell" bucket, but I am trying to keep an open mind to both sides of this argument.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 05, 2009, 06:43:26 PM
Squirt, not bad posts.  This is the line of thought that I fall under.  I think that when Dan went to young Charolet and told her not to come back, he said that he wanted to prevent it.  But I think his research with the DI folk made him realize that he must still do these things.  He sees that he must go back to the island and do the things that were always done.  I think him telling Jack and the others that they can change things is one of those things that he came to do.  He knows that telling them that will causes a chain of events that will lead to the Swan being built and Des pushing the button, etc etc.

I think this makes a lot of sense and represents the explanation that I am strong leaning towards.  However (there's that word)... this goes back to the discussion that is going on in another thread.  We know (or we think we know based on the Desmond-centric episode from Season 3) that Desmond has, in fact, "changed the past".  (The example on the other thread is when Desmond somehow knew that a bartender was about to be hit from having previously experiencing it and told him to duck... and the bartender did with the guy hitting Desmond instead.)  I think this falls under the "time will tell" bucket, but I am trying to keep an open mind to both sides of this argument.

Right.  I did forget to mention the Desmond aspect.  I'm with you on that.  I think Desmond will be person that actualy can change things...but...maybe this is for another thread.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Adriana on May 06, 2009, 01:32:26 AM

I think this makes a lot of sense and represents the explanation that I am strong leaning towards.  However (there's that word)... this goes back to the discussion that is going on in another thread.  We know (or we think we know based on the Desmond-centric episode from Season 3) that Desmond has, in fact, "changed the past".  (The example on the other thread is when Desmond somehow knew that a bartender was about to be hit from having previously experiencing it and told him to duck... and the bartender did with the guy hitting Desmond instead.)  I think this falls under the "time will tell" bucket, but I am trying to keep an open mind to both sides of this argument.

Right.  I did forget to mention the Desmond aspect.  I'm with you on that.  I think Desmond will be person that actualy can change things...but...maybe this is for another thread.

Heck yes, it does!  Bring it back around to the "There are no Variables" thread ... I am loving the discussion that is going on there, which this thread is slowly starting to mirror.

To state for the record -- since our Losties started time-jumping, I've been a firm WHH'er.  Heck, since I became obsessed with Back to the Future (all three, baby) I've been a firm WHH'er in general. (Marty was, is, and always will be on stage singing "Johnny Be Good" with his hand disappearing! Lorraine never mentioned Calvin Klein in her drunken recollections to Marty because she either didn't remember him, had gotten over him, and tried to paint a rosy picture of her and George).

Whoa. Anyway ...

I've been gung-ho on Whatever Happened, Happened.  Until re-watching Desmond's ability to change the events of time.

Now I'm 90% WHH, 10% Believer-in-Desmond-the-Variable. The odds are stacked high against Desmond pulling us off our string of time into another string ... but I've managed to convince 10% of myself that it's possible IF he can manage it.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 03:24:58 PM
Mrs. Alpert, you asked a few pages ago why we were having all the discussion about whether something was a paradox or not...

On the very first page of this thread, Bostonlost said "If Faraday is dead it sets up a paradox" which then set up a whole bunch of posts from people who either do or do not believe in the "time loop" or "alternate timeline" or whatever, and whether or not certain events constitute a "paradox" or not, (I think we were talking about whether Daniel dying in 1974 was a paradox when we know he was alive in 2004, thus that's why it was in this 'RIP Daniel' thread) and then by the time we got to page 6 of the thread, Novashannon pointed out the dictionary definition of "paradox" and then it just went on from there.  Basically a big discussion of our present-day reality-based definition of "paradox" VS. the Lost-verse's definition of "paradox," since Lost is clearly not reality.  So there you go -- that's what it was all about.  I think.   ;D

Very nice compelling viewpoints on all sides.  It seems to me like the presentations of Squirt, Laklost, Shadow, et. al, do sort-of fit in the area I described as "Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?"

So... well, OK.  But I'm still not convinced.  But that's OK, don't try to convince me.   ;D  I'm happy to just listen and try to keep an open mind either way.  Something about this whole story doesn't fit right for me yet, that's for sure, so I'm calling that a paradox in my own head, I guess.

I'm having a very hard time with "What happened, happened" because to me, you can't just say it only applies to the "big things" like the end result, because who defines what's a "big thing" and what isn't?  Who's to say that the tiniest little difference might not make a hugely different outcome?  (like someone said about Charlie dying -- well, he eventually died either way, so WHH.  But, look at all that might've changed because he died differently, or later -- Patchy and the two chicks down in the underwater hatch no doubt wish he'd died when his tent was struck by lightning!)  So anyway, I'm not too sure about WHH, particularly with Daniel's explanation this past week about Variables.  So... ergo... I'm not too sure that Daniel really died yet.  Or that things won't loop and change.  Or that the Comic-Con video didn't get filmed.  Or that anything that has happened, only happened once.  I'm just not sure.

And just because TPTB have told us there is only going to be one timeline, doesn't mean I'm going to believe that.  They also told us there would be no time travel, and just look.  (Unless they're going to wrap this all up like Bobby Ewing "It was all just a dream, and so nyah there's only one timeline and no time travel," and THAT would be the lamest thing ever...)

So count me in the group that Squirt describes as "Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept."  Sorry!  I guess I'm just thick sometimes.  Just pity me and go on...  :D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on May 06, 2009, 03:58:44 PM
So count me in the group that Squirt describes as "Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept."  Sorry!  I guess I'm just thick sometimes.  Just pity me and go on...  :D

I think for those of us in the WHH group, there is still enough unaswered questions to be open to "changing futures".  For me, I know that my opinion was based on a bunch of imperical evidence where it appeared that folks trying to change the future actually created it (such as Sayid shooting young Ben and Jack then refusing to help young Ben causing Kate to take him to the Others / Hostiles.)  However, there are also some potential unanswered questions about changing the future (mostly around Desmond... although, I would argue that Desmond saving Charlie time-after-time wasn't necessarily changing the future as we never saw that future... it was just a vision in his mind... that said, Desmond's experience with trying to stop a bartender from getting hit when we had seen him get hit previously... well, you get the point, I think.)

Anyway, I don't think you're "thick"... just representing a very possible different side of the coin.   ;D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on May 06, 2009, 04:17:47 PM
ohhhhhhkay. And...this is the point where I once again extract myself from the conversation, lol! I agree, Madam P, I think I'll do the same: just read from the sidelines and refrain from posting. My ideas about it make sense to me, but when somebody tries to come up with a counter-argument, I'm more confused about what they're saying, and subsequently think it's MY idea that's confusing.  :-\ I'll bring us some sandwiches and beer, Madam P, and we can watch the battle rage from our picnic on the hill.  ;D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 06, 2009, 04:51:00 PM
So count me in the group that Squirt describes as "Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept."  Sorry!  I guess I'm just thick sometimes.  Just pity me and go on...  :D

I think for those of us in the WHH group, there is still enough unaswered questions to be open to "changing futures".  For me, I know that my opinion was based on a bunch of imperical evidence where it appeared that folks trying to change the future actually created it (such as Sayid shooting young Ben and Jack then refusing to help young Ben causing Kate to take him to the Others / Hostiles.)  However, there are also some potential unanswered questions about changing the future (mostly around Desmond... although, I would argue that Desmond saving Charlie time-after-time wasn't necessarily changing the future as we never saw that future... it was just a vision in his mind... that said, Desmond's experience with trying to stop a bartender from getting hit when we had seen him get hit previously... well, you get the point, I think.)

Anyway, I don't think you're "thick"... just representing a very possible different side of the coin.   ;D

Bingo.  This is exactly how I feel.  Its very refreshing when someone posts exactly what you are thinking.  And I second the motion that the people who are not on this side of the fence are not thick.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 04:57:22 PM
Whew!  Now I feel better!  Thanks guys!

Now I think I'll go have a picnic with Mrs. A and try to "work s**t out" as Jon Favreau said in The Replacements...   ;D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: jamesl on May 06, 2009, 05:04:17 PM
So... well, OK.  But I'm still not convinced.  But that's OK, don't try to convince me.   ;D  I'm happy to just listen and try to keep an open mind either way.  Something about this whole story doesn't fit right for me yet, that's for sure, so I'm calling that a paradox in my own head, I guess.

I'm very much in the camp of "nothing can be changed, not even the little things"
I spelled out my views (in what I thought were really good posts) in the "There are no Variables" thread
and, I believe in the same thread, someone else made a really excellent analogy about DVDs, which I totally agree with

then someone had to come along and bring up the whole Desmond / bar tender thing (which I had completely forgotten about)

now I'm 100% SURE that nothing can be change, not even the little things, BUT I totally agree with "Something about this whole story doesn't fit right for me yet, that's for sure"

so I know nothing can change, but something aint right :)

somebody else asked  (maybe it was you) "what's the point of the story if nothing can change? where is the story going?"
which is a vary valid point

so, I'm eagerly anticipating these last 3 episodes of this season and see if any questions are answered and where they go with all this
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 05:06:07 PM
somebody else asked  (maybe it was you) "what's the point of the story if nothing can change? where is the story going?"
which is a vary valid point

so, I'm eagerly anticipating these last 3 episodes of this season and see if any questions are answered and where they go with all this

It wasn't me, but I have thought that very thing, so it may as well have been me.   :D  I'm with you -- can't wait for more!
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Holland34 on May 06, 2009, 05:22:16 PM
somebody else asked  (maybe it was you) "what's the point of the story if nothing can change? where is the story going?"
which is a vary valid point

so, I'm eagerly anticipating these last 3 episodes of this season and see if any questions are answered and where they go with all this

It wasn't me, but I have thought that very thing, so it may as well have been me.   :D  I'm with you -- can't wait for more!

Perhaps it was you in an alternative existence?   ;)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Madam P on May 06, 2009, 11:29:29 PM
Tee-hee!  Very amuuuuusing!   ;)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: toadsage on May 21, 2009, 04:15:30 PM
i was just wonering, when ellie shot dan there was clearly an exit wound. richie was right in front of him, so why didnt richie get shot? ???
a lil strange dont you think?
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: hyperform on May 21, 2009, 04:33:35 PM
Jacob caught the bullet  ;)
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: toadsage on May 21, 2009, 04:35:16 PM
in his teeth like ace ventura! ;D
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on May 21, 2009, 04:53:01 PM
i was just wonering, when ellie shot dan there was clearly an exit wound. richie was right in front of him, so why didnt richie get shot? ???
a lil strange dont you think?
Maybe by the time the bullet passed through his body it was spent and didn't have enough velocity to do any further damage.
Title: Re: RIP Faraday
Post by: BrianIsLost2 on May 21, 2009, 05:03:24 PM
i was just wonering, when ellie shot dan there was clearly an exit wound. richie was right in front of him, so why didnt richie get shot? ???
a lil strange dont you think?
Maybe by the time the bullet passed through his body it was spent and didn't have enough velocity to do any further damage.

Well, I think there are a lot of things that can, and should, be chauked up to good old TV magic and I think this is one of those cases.  Would a bullet form that gun go clean thru a person at that range?  I'm sure.  But the way the scene was shot was done for dramatic effect, not to prove a point.  But, who knows, this is LOST.  TPTB might have given us a hint.  But at this point, I have to go with TV magic.