Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x08 => Topic started by: BadRobot64 on March 04, 2009, 10:42:24 PM

Title: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 04, 2009, 10:42:24 PM
he must know about The Black Rock...
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Folly529 on March 04, 2009, 10:47:09 PM
I think that he knows Sawyer isn't trustworthy & wants him gone.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: wcaclimbing on March 04, 2009, 11:07:05 PM
If he wanted him gone, don't you think he would have found a way to get rid of them during the three years they were together?
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 04, 2009, 11:08:43 PM
If he wanted him gone, don't you think he would have found a way to get rid of them during the three years they were together?

...OR was he being like every other leader and building info to take down a worthy adversary....?
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: PILOT on March 04, 2009, 11:13:47 PM
I don't think so only because the leaders your referring to are the leaders of the others, not Darma. Remember Richard said they (meaning the others) have specific guide lines for choosing their leaders.  I doubt Horace would of made the cut.  Just a thought....
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Optimus J on March 04, 2009, 11:17:45 PM
Which guidelines?
#1. A Ghost person sent me here.
#2. Jacob ordered the ghost to say I'm your leader.
#3. Kill your father.
Those guidelines?
(just joking about the misleads the show throws us)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BTBM on March 04, 2009, 11:20:38 PM
I believe any distrust Horace had in Sawyer dissipated after Sawyer successfully negotiated with Richard. I don't think Richard is exactly the negotiating type.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Folly529 on March 04, 2009, 11:23:49 PM
I believe any distrust Horace had in Sawyer dissipated after Sawyer successfully negotiated with Richard. I don't think Richard is exactly the negotiating type.

Thanks - I was trying to think out how to explain that Sawyer's con worked - - again.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: PILOT on March 04, 2009, 11:25:16 PM
I suppose a better question would be why would Richard let his people act like thugs? I always assumed Richard was sort of noble.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: jugdish on March 04, 2009, 11:27:54 PM
Maybe The Dharma does not go to the Dark territory and does not know about it.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: E.S.B. on March 04, 2009, 11:33:08 PM
I don't think so only because the leaders your referring to are the leaders of the others, not Darma. Remember Richard said they (meaning the others) have specific guide lines for choosing their leaders.  I doubt Horace would of made the cut.  Just a thought....

The Others killed Horace in the purge in "The Man Behind the Curtain."  Ben saw him dead on a bench.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 04, 2009, 11:53:12 PM
I suppose a better question would be why would Richard let his people act like thugs? I always assumed Richard was sort of noble.

where did u get that feeling abt him? just curious.. always saw him as "ive had enough"....
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 04, 2009, 11:54:05 PM
Maybe The Dharma does not go to the Dark territory and does not know about it.

very very possible jugs
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Lion of Atreides on March 05, 2009, 01:43:43 AM
Horace clearly is unaware that James has been lying.  Horace is not a leader chosen for leadership qualities.  He's a scientist turned bureaucrat.  Just like our new Secretary of Energy, Steven Chu.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_Energy
And remember, James has played 2nd Lieutenant to Locke during an intense period, and also was around Ben a lot.  Some leadership skills surely rubbed off.  That allowed James to put in place a secret surveillance program (for the O6's return) right under Horace's nose. 
  Say what you will, but the non-Redshirt Losties have survived the crucible, and are more capable against their enemies because of it. Reminds me of Frank Herbert's central theme from the Dosadi Experiment.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Optimus J on March 05, 2009, 01:49:56 AM

 ...Say what you will, but the non-Redshirt Losties...
Don't talk that way about Froghurt.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: hyperform on March 05, 2009, 02:29:19 AM
I think they suspected them of being hostiles, till he made everything alright with Richard, but if were me I would think it even more with him fixing things with who seemed to strike fear in to the DI people.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Maxor127 on March 05, 2009, 03:09:32 AM
I think Sawyer was always a natural but reluctant leader who could never get out of Jack's shadow.  There was an episode where Jack was gone and Sawyer stepped in as leader and at first he didn't want to, but he was good at it and it rubbed off on him and then Jack comes back and you can see the disappointment on Sawyer's face.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 05, 2009, 03:18:36 AM
I think Sawyer was always a natural but reluctant leader who could never get out of Jack's shadow.  There was an episode where Jack was gone and Sawyer stepped in as leader and at first he didn't want to, but he was good at it and it rubbed off on him and then Jack comes back and you can see the disappointment on Sawyer's face.

that and disappointment cuz he wantged to bang kate with no problems
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Beej on March 05, 2009, 09:17:56 AM
And why did Horace said to Sawyer that he doesn't qualified for Dharma material ? He doesn't even know who Sawyer is. What is Dharma material ? I remember Ben saying to the losties they weren't good people that is why they weren't recruited by the others.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Shakey on March 05, 2009, 10:08:25 AM
And why did Horace said to Sawyer that he doesn't qualified for Dharma material ? He doesn't even know who Sawyer is. What is Dharma material ? I remember Ben saying to the losties they weren't good people that is why they weren't recruited by the others.
I think he was referring to the fact that Sawyer seems a little untamed... not really someone that you'd envision as a company man.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: bfth on March 05, 2009, 10:12:00 AM
I think Horace knew he was lying, but he knew he wasn't "a hostile".  Obviously after Sawyer's "chat" with Richard, Horace decided that Sawyer was someone he'd want to have on his side of the island.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: WhatThe on March 05, 2009, 11:30:39 AM
I think they suspected them of being hostiles, till he made everything alright with Richard, but if were me I would think it even more with him fixing things with who seemed to strike fear in to the DI people.

I think killing two "hostiles", in addition to negotiating with Richard, probably helped gain Horace's trust as well.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Madam P on March 05, 2009, 11:38:44 AM
Obviously after Sawyer's "chat" with Richard, Horace decided that Sawyer was someone he'd want to have on his side of the island.

Agreed.  I definitely got the impression that Horace knew what the Black Rock was -- his face just went a little bit too blank when Sawyer asked him if he'd ever heard of it, and he was just a little too innocent with his "Why, no!  I haven't!"   That doesn't necessarily tell him Sawyer was lying, though, I guess -- theoretically a salvage boat wouldn't be aware that the shipwrecked Black Rock was in the middle of some island's jungle.

But he had to have been impressed with Sawyer's negotiation skills with Richard.  Better to have him on our side than theirs, right?
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 05, 2009, 12:19:30 PM
And why did Horace said to Sawyer that he doesn't qualified for Dharma material ? He doesn't even know who Sawyer is. What is Dharma material ? I remember Ben saying to the losties they weren't good people that is why they weren't recruited by the others.

Yeah, not only that, but how many people in real-life did the Dharma Volunteer Recruitment program? I mean, if I'm qualified for the DI, certainly Sawyer is....

Also, Roger Linus is DI material? pffffffftttt. I don't buy it. Something else is going on with Horace. He knows stuff.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BobBX542 on March 05, 2009, 01:28:56 PM
Maybe Horace thought he was running a con on Sawyer. Follow me on this. Imagine you are Horace, and the following happens...

Some strangers (Sawyer and crew) comes out of nowhere, rescues one of the D.I. (Amy), even kills two of the hostiles (Thing 1 and Thing 2) as proof that they are not hostiles, **lays this crazy story on you about how they got to the island looking for some lost slave ship,**  and then manages to convince the hostile in charge (Richard) to not attack the D.I. as justice for breaking the truce.

Now, as Horace, would you think that is true, or that the hostiles had just infiltrated your base?? Now that the hostiles are there, Horace says that they can have 2 weeks to find their friends, but plans to try and get info about the hostiles. I bet that there will be very strict rules applied to Sawyer and crew if they are going to be staying there.

Edited section in red, added it after the fact.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: hyperform on March 05, 2009, 01:49:45 PM
And why did Horace said to Sawyer that he doesn't qualified for Dharma material ? He doesn't even know who Sawyer is. What is Dharma material ? I remember Ben saying to the losties they weren't good people that is why they weren't recruited by the others.

Hippies and Rednecks have a long history of not liking each other, so I could understand Horace being a little standoffish with the country bumpkin that just waltzed into his camp.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BurkRoyer on March 05, 2009, 01:57:21 PM
Horace seemed pretty gullible to me.  I feel sometimes we overthink this show.  He believed Sawyer.  Sawyer fooled him.  It's that simple.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Shakey on March 05, 2009, 02:04:22 PM
Horace seemed pretty gullible to me.  I feel sometimes we overthink this show.  He believed Sawyer.  Sawyer fooled him.  It's that simple.
I agree that he was certainly represented this way last night.  However, let's not forget that Jacob is using the cabin that Horace built.  And, that Horace was able to visit John in his dream and give him a map to the cabin.  Seems to me that Horace isn't just some fool who stumbled into leadership of the DI.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: hyperform on March 05, 2009, 03:31:02 PM
Horace seemed pretty gullible to me.  I feel sometimes we overthink this show.  He believed Sawyer.  Sawyer fooled him.  It's that simple.
I agree that he was certainly represented this way last night.  However, let's not forget that Jacob is using the cabin that Horace built.  And, that Horace was able to visit John in his dream and give him a map to the cabin.  Seems to me that Horace isn't just some fool who stumbled into leadership of the DI.

plus, in "The Man Behind The Curtain" when Ben saw Horace's dead body, you could tell it actually affected him, sorta the way he said "I'm gonna miss you John, I really am"
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: E.S.B. on March 11, 2009, 12:34:13 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 11, 2009, 12:50:08 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.

I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BobBX542 on March 11, 2009, 03:08:57 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.

I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.

Pretty sure you're right, I think that's why everyone was so confused about why he would be working at the Arrow station if he was a mathematician.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 11, 2009, 03:40:40 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.
I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.
Pretty sure you're right, I think that's why everyone was so confused about why he would be working at the Arrow station if he was a mathematician.
...maybe he's calculating up some statistics about probable attack patterns. ::)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: Mrs Hume on March 11, 2009, 04:23:33 PM
"Knowing" when bad things will happen right?! hehe
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: E.S.B. on March 11, 2009, 05:14:45 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.

I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.

Thanks, Mrs. A, I think you're right! (you seem to have a good memory for this stuff!)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 11, 2009, 05:16:11 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.
I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.
Thanks, Mrs. A, I think you're right! (you seem to have a good memory for this stuff!)

Aw thanks E.S.B.! Unfortunately, the Lost stuff pushes out other stuff, like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name...lol! But I know Horace's occupation in the DI!  ;D
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: E.S.B. on March 11, 2009, 05:22:21 PM
Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.
I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.
Thanks, Mrs. A, I think you're right! (you seem to have a good memory for this stuff!)

Aw thanks E.S.B.! Unfortunately, the Lost stuff pushes out other stuff, like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name...lol! But I know Horace's occupation in the DI!  ;D

LOL, I know that feeling!  I think maybe this gives me a good excuse to re-watch The Man Behind the Curtain.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 11, 2009, 05:32:25 PM
Whoever said you need an excuse to rewatch an episode, they lied.  :P
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 12, 2009, 03:23:00 AM
I believe any distrust Horace had in Sawyer dissipated after Sawyer successfully negotiated with Richard. I don't think Richard is exactly the negotiating type.
Good call.  But as BobBX said, I'm sure they (Sawyer & team) were carefully scrutinized over the coming weeks/months.


Maybe The Dharma does not go to the Dark territory and does not know about it.
I would agree as that's also Smokey's stomping grounds.


Refresh my memory, but didn't we learn in The Man Behind the Curtain that Horace's occupation was Physicist?  I thought it was on his Dharma jumpsuit.  So maybe he does know more than we are led to believe.
I think it said "Mathematician." Either way, he's not a dumb guy.
Thanks, Mrs. A, I think you're right! (you seem to have a good memory for this stuff!)

Aw thanks E.S.B.! Unfortunately, the Lost stuff pushes out other stuff, like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name...lol! But I know Horace's occupation in the DI!  ;D
LOL  ohmygoodness...this reminds me of one of my favorite Sponge Bob episodes.  I mean my children's favorites.   :-[ ::) ;) ;D

I know who Edward Kitsis, Edward Mars, Edward Colburn, Eddie the security guard, & Edmund Burke are, but I can't remember my 4th child's middle name.....

KIDDING.  Kidding. lol  It's Rachel. 

Just like Claire's friend, Tom's wife, Juliet's sister, & Alvar's daughter. ::) :-[ :)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 12, 2009, 03:30:04 AM
LOL  ohmygoodness...this reminds me of one of my favorite Sponge Bob episodes.  I mean my children's favorites.   :-[ ::) ;) ;D

I know who Edward Kitsis, Edward Mars, Edward Colburn, Eddie the security guard, & Edmund Burke are, but I can't remember my 4th child's middle name.....

KIDDING.  Kidding. lol  It's Rachel. 

Just like Claire's friend, Tom's wife, Juliet's sister, & Alvar's daughter. ::) :-[ :)

We burned the name! WE BURNED THE NAME!!!! LOL!
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 12, 2009, 03:33:56 AM
LOL  ohmygoodness...this reminds me of one of my favorite Sponge Bob episodes.  I mean my children's favorites.   :-[ ::) ;) ;D

I know who Edward Kitsis, Edward Mars, Edward Colburn, Eddie the security guard, & Edmund Burke are, but I can't remember my 4th child's middle name.....

KIDDING.  Kidding. lol  It's Rachel. 

Just like Claire's friend, Tom's wife, Juliet's sister, & Alvar's daughter. ::) :-[ :)

We burned the name! WE BURNED THE NAME!!!! LOL!
YES!  rofl

whooHOOO!  I feel so normal now. ;D  *phew*
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 12, 2009, 03:35:38 AM
LOL  ohmygoodness...this reminds me of one of my favorite Sponge Bob episodes.  I mean my children's favorites.   :-[ ::) ;) ;D

I know who Edward Kitsis, Edward Mars, Edward Colburn, Eddie the security guard, & Edmund Burke are, but I can't remember my 4th child's middle name.....

KIDDING.  Kidding. lol  It's Rachel. 

Just like Claire's friend, Tom's wife, Juliet's sister, & Alvar's daughter. ::) :-[ :)
We burned the name! WE BURNED THE NAME!!!! LOL!
YES!  rofl

whooHOOO!  I feel so normal now. ;D  *phew*

Man, I'm laughing so hard I'm crying... that was a great call, PL! That's one of my favorite... I mean, my younger siblings' favorite episodes... too!
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 12, 2009, 03:37:50 AM
LOL  ohmygoodness...this reminds me of one of my favorite Sponge Bob episodes.  I mean my children's favorites.   :-[ ::) ;) ;D

I know who Edward Kitsis, Edward Mars, Edward Colburn, Eddie the security guard, & Edmund Burke are, but I can't remember my 4th child's middle name.....

KIDDING.  Kidding. lol  It's Rachel. 

Just like Claire's friend, Tom's wife, Juliet's sister, & Alvar's daughter. ::) :-[ :)
We burned the name! WE BURNED THE NAME!!!! LOL!
YES!  rofl

whooHOOO!  I feel so normal now. ;D  *phew*

Man, I'm laughing so hard I'm crying... that was a great call, PL! That's one of my favorite... I mean, my younger siblings' favorite episodes... too!
I had that exact imagery with this line "like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name."  LOL  You're quite the wordsmith.  ;)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 12, 2009, 03:43:09 AM
I had that exact imagery with this line "like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name."  LOL  You're quite the wordsmith.  ;)

Ah, I'm glad my geekiness doesn't go unnoticed! You do inspire me, PL. I'm glad we're in this together.  ;D
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 12, 2009, 03:50:39 AM
I had that exact imagery with this line "like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name."  LOL  You're quite the wordsmith.  ;)

Ah, I'm glad my geekiness doesn't go unnoticed! You do inspire me, PL. I'm glad we're in this together.  ;D
Yay.  ;D (& I'm done before I let it slip that I'm singing HSM songs now with this comment. :-\ ) lol


& now back to your regularly scheduled LOST discussion....
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 12, 2009, 03:59:20 AM
I had that exact imagery with this line "like how to use a fork or my sister's middle name."  LOL  You're quite the wordsmith.  ;)
Ah, I'm glad my geekiness doesn't go unnoticed! You do inspire me, PL. I'm glad we're in this together.  ;D
Yay.  ;D (& I'm done before I let it slip that I'm singing HSM songs now with this comment. :-\ ) lol


& now back to your regularly scheduled LOST discussion....

LOL! And I'll pretend that I don't know what HSM is!! Gosh PL you're killing me tonight!
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: E.S.B. on March 13, 2009, 10:01:46 PM
Ahh, so the reason I'm not getting this joke is that you're talking about Spongebob and not Lost!   ;)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 13, 2009, 10:22:59 PM
Ahh, so the reason I'm not getting this joke is that you're talking about Spongebob and not Lost!   ;)
Sorry E.S.B., we kind of went...somewhat off-topic.  :-\ Spongebob and High School Musical, to be specific. So geeky.
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: E.S.B. on March 19, 2009, 12:14:01 AM
Hehe, no prob.  I was just confused for a bit until it dawned on me that it wasn't something I was supposed to know!

(by the way, sorry for responding so long after.  I haven't been on in a while)
Title: Re: Does Goodspeed know Sawyer is lying??
Post by: BobBX542 on March 19, 2009, 10:21:45 AM
So, Ethan Goodspeed huh?? Interesting to think that Ben sent out Goodwin and Goodspeed the day of the crash.