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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x07 => Topic started by: Harry Erickson on February 28, 2009, 09:33:54 AM

Title: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Harry Erickson on February 28, 2009, 09:33:54 AM
I'm watching an old tv show the other day and a character says something that sparks a though, suicide is blasphemy or otherwise a sin, maybe thats why ben needed to kill locke instead of locke killing himself, lost has always had alot of religious stuff and maybe its something to do with that, i don't know just a thought or it was about the whole Ms Hawking thing
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: WhatThe on February 28, 2009, 05:02:14 PM
I still don't see how Locke mentioning Mrs. Hawking would be reason enough for Ben to kill Locke. Your suicide=sin concept makes more sense in my eyes.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Bostonlost on February 28, 2009, 08:05:19 PM
I still don't see how Locke mentioning Mrs. Hawking would be reason enough for Ben to kill Locke. Your suicide=sin concept makes more sense in my eyes.

I think you need to look at it as a whole...Take into account who told Locke about Hawkins Ben snaps because it is Jacob talking to Locke again....The Last time this happened Ben Shot Locke
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Novashannon on February 28, 2009, 08:20:46 PM
Ben is out only for Ben.  He killed Locke because he is jealous of him, and not for any greater good. 
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: WhatThe on February 28, 2009, 08:45:14 PM
I still don't see how Locke mentioning Mrs. Hawking would be reason enough for Ben to kill Locke. Your suicide=sin concept makes more sense in my eyes.

I think you need to look at it as a whole...Take into account who told Locke about Hawkins Ben snaps because it is Jacob talking to Locke again....The Last time this happened Ben Shot Locke

Actually, the last time "Jacob" talked to Locke Ben was with him and told Locke he needed to go into the cabin alone. He didn't attempt to kill Locke, or really do anything to him. He seemed to accept Locke's position in Jacob's eyes. I don't think Ben has an issue anymore with Locke interacting with Jacob, possibly because he knows the island is in danger in some way. Seeing Alex executed right in front of his eyes also probably put him into a different mindset about Widmore, the island, and Locke.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Bostonlost on February 28, 2009, 09:38:33 PM
I still don't see how Locke mentioning Mrs. Hawking would be reason enough for Ben to kill Locke. Your suicide=sin concept makes more sense in my eyes.

But Locke came out told him that the island had to be moved...cut all the way to Locke and Christian and we find out that again Ben was being deceitful with Locke and Jacob when he took it upon himself to move the Island.....

I don't see how you can not see hate and anger in Ben's eyes when he hears Locke say Hawkins

I think you need to look at it as a whole...Take into account who told Locke about Hawkins Ben snaps because it is Jacob talking to Locke again....The Last time this happened Ben Shot Locke

Actually, the last time "Jacob" talked to Locke Ben was with him and told Locke he needed to go into the cabin alone. He didn't attempt to kill Locke, or really do anything to him. He seemed to accept Locke's position in Jacob's eyes. I don't think Ben has an issue anymore with Locke interacting with Jacob, possibly because he knows the island is in danger in some way. Seeing Alex executed right in front of his eyes also probably put him into a different mindset about Widmore, the island, and Locke.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LostinLock on February 28, 2009, 09:47:41 PM
I'm watching an old tv show the other day and a character says something that sparks a though, suicide is blasphemy or otherwise a sin, maybe thats why ben needed to kill locke instead of locke killing himself, lost has always had alot of religious stuff and maybe its something to do with that, i don't know just a thought or it was about the whole Ms Hawking thing

Not an expert but in some faiths, it is a sin.

I believe that the writers are using the religious symbols to tell a story.  I hope for all intent purposes of this show that they have not taken this to a level of the second coming of Christ, as this would be jumping the shark.

There are many analogies one can look at but I think they have been over analyzed. :-\

Ben killed John, second time around, because Ben is Ben and has his own motives.  Good or Bad Ben did not do this to save the Locke from shame of suicide.  And Mrs. Hawkings in a what resemembled a Catholic Church, blessed Virgin in the background, did not appear to have an issue.

The church is background, a location, quite a good one for people coming in and out without suspicion.  Perhaps a neutral territory.  Smart idea to build a church over the lampost.

I am sure in Ben's mind he is thinking well Jack or whomever you got crack a few eggs to make a good omlet ;D
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on February 28, 2009, 11:27:59 PM
I wonder if Ben will get a mark like Juliet did when she killed Pickett.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LouE68 on March 01, 2009, 01:18:35 AM
I wonder if Ben will get a mark like Juliet did when she killed Pickett.
speaking of that...we need to see them too...are they in the group moving around somewhere too
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: userh6478 on March 01, 2009, 06:38:59 PM
Why would Ben Kill Locke just to bring him to the island with him..He apparently wasn't too threatened by him..He knew he was going to reseccureted..by the story he told in the church
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Mrs Hume on March 02, 2009, 12:09:18 AM
That was what I was thinking too. (see below from a post last week, I didn't feel like rewriting it. over and over and over)

I feel that if Locke killed himself then the island wont take him back. it might make him a sinner. like the catholics believed you wouldn't go to heaven if you killed yourself. Ben had to do it. or it wouldn't be a crucifix. God didn't commit suicide he was hung. !!!!  My feeling is that Ben is and has always done what he needed to do for the island. Ben= good.  :o We just don't know it yet.

 * add - ( Jesus,  God,  you know )

Also,
looked to me like Cesar knew what he was looking for. they (him and the marshall) obviously work for widmore along with sayid now. at least that is what I think after this episode as of right now.


and Something tells me if the island didn't want Ben to kill Locke, then Ben wouldn't have succeeded. just like all the other times Ben tried. (maybe Ben didn't try to kill him but it was either a test or just to slow him down)

 If Ben wanted to kill Locke for his own purposes then he wouldn't have brought him back to the island knowing that he was going to be resurrected. (we know he knew because of the story he told Jack in the church) and if he didn't know until later then how dumb is he since locke told him he had to bring everyone back.

 I also think that Ben isn't really that hurt, and he is doing another "Henry gale".

Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 02, 2009, 12:46:12 AM
Mrs H, I'm going to have to use that in casual conversation now..."Oh, he's not hurt, he's just pulling a Henry Gale..." LOL! Love it.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LouE68 on March 02, 2009, 02:01:53 AM
I still trust Ben...I think he stopped Locke from killing himself a major sin, he knew Locke had to die, so he did the dirty work....The writers are sure being trixie....it's all so crazy...
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Holland34 on March 02, 2009, 02:39:36 AM
While I think your end-thought may be on-target, I think your reasoning is incorrect.  I won't speak for all religions, but since the majority of the religious overtones in Lost have been around Christianity, I will say that generally accepted theology does not accept that suicide is a sin.  Without getting into a major debate on that, I will point to the concept of what you were getting at (or what I think you were getting at)... Richard Alpert said John had to die to get the others back.  However, Locke killing himself would not have accomplished that in and of itself.  Ben had to take over the drive to recruit the O6.  So mysterious forces (read: the island) put him in a position to take on that role... part of his selling pitch was Locke's death... thus making Alpert's statement true.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Thomas on March 02, 2009, 08:58:50 AM
It seems to me that Ben kills Locke because Ben is selfish/Jealous.    Jacob tells Locke to move the island, but Ben does it instead.    Richard tells Locke to bring back the others, and that he would have to die.   Ben ends up Killing Locke and getting the others to come back.    Ben's actions seem to be a message to Jacob/Richard and company that they are wasting their time with Locke.   Locke can't do anything on his own...Ben wants to convince them of this and be the Leader.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Mrs Hume on March 02, 2009, 04:12:05 PM
Something tells me that if Ben wasn't meant to kill Locke , Locke wouldn't have died. the island wouldn't let it happen. so that's what leads me to believe Ben was supposed to kill Locke.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: MangoBingo on March 02, 2009, 06:33:32 PM
I had this crazy deep conversation about Lost at work today...

It could be argued that Christian was taking his own life by drinking himself to death. Now, that isn't as immediate as wrapping a noose around your own neck, but it's still comparable to suicide because it's by your own hand.

Christian's official cause of death was a heart attack, due to a four day alcohol binge. If Locke was indeed a near-identical proxy to Christian, I wonder if Christian was also killed by another before he had the chance to do it himself?
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LostinLock on March 02, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
I had this crazy deep conversation about Lost at work today...

It could be argued that Christian was taking his own life by drinking himself to death. Now, that isn't as immediate as wrapping a noose around your own neck, but it's still comparable to suicide because it's by your own hand.

Christian's official cause of death was a heart attack, due to a four day alcohol binge. If Locke was indeed a near-identical proxy to Christian, I wonder if Christian was also killed by another before he had the chance to do it himself?

I have said this myself in another thread and it is now lost and buried, but exactly.  We see Jack drinking again because of the island, and well, if Christian knew he had to bring this plane and these people to the island why not do it that way!
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 02, 2009, 06:38:25 PM
I had this crazy deep conversation about Lost at work today...

It could be argued that Christian was taking his own life by drinking himself to death. Now, that isn't as immediate as wrapping a noose around your own neck, but it's still comparable to suicide because it's by your own hand.

Christian's official cause of death was a heart attack, due to a four day alcohol binge. If Locke was indeed a near-identical proxy to Christian, I wonder if Christian was also killed by another before he had the chance to do it himself?

I'd been thinking about this too, the drinking-yourself-to-death-is-kinda-suicide thing, but I didn't know how to articulate it and have it make sense, and possibly sound awesome.  :D I like the idea that someone killed Christian...maybe spiked his drink with something?? Ooooo!
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Mrs Hume on March 02, 2009, 06:44:34 PM
Or maybe drinking yourself to death is considered suicide by the island and that is the reason Christian wasn't reincarnated exactly like Locke was. and is more ghost like (for lack of better words)
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: MangoBingo on March 02, 2009, 06:46:03 PM
I'm going off on a tangent here but I need to post this before my brain goes blank...

Remember when Christian gave Jack that watch; which his father had given him? What item has Locke been given?... A compass...

The Island moves both through time (symbolised by the watch) and geographically (symbolised by the compass).

Christian's father gave him the watch originally. And whom gave Locke the compass?... Richard.

I believe that Richard Alpert is Locke's biological father.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on March 02, 2009, 06:51:18 PM
I'm going off on a tangent here but I need to post this before my brain goes blank...

Remember when Christian gave Jack that watch; which his father had given him? What item has Locke been given?... A compass...

The Island moves both through time (symbolised by the watch) and geographically (symbolised by the compass).

Christian's father gave him the watch originally. And whom gave Locke the compass?... Richard.

I believe that Richard Alpert is Locke's biological father.

Wow...then Locke and Jack would have to work together, or Locke and Claire, or Aaron...

But Richard didn't seem too fatherly...and Locke was supposed to kill his father, so... what does that mean? I feel a new thread coming on!
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LostinLock on March 02, 2009, 06:54:08 PM
I'm going off on a tangent here but I need to post this before my brain goes blank...

Remember when Christian gave Jack that watch; which his father had given him? What item has Locke been given?... A compass...

The Island moves both through time (symbolised by the watch) and geographically (symbolised by the compass).

Christian's father gave him the watch originally. And whom gave Locke the compass?... Richard.

I believe that Richard Alpert is Locke's biological father.

I might go with you on that because of two things  We do not know how old Richard was, so he could have been the older guy Emily went with.  Second he was upset that Locke was not choosing what he wanted and kept trying to get him to the island.

Also there is something else, could Richard be Charlottes father?  He remainded on the island?  That would be a second red head!  

You forgot that Paik, Sun's father gave Jin a watch to give to someone in Los Angeles.  

Great points Mango, keep throwing it out and we can see what sticks to the wall as they say!
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LostinLock on March 02, 2009, 06:55:08 PM
I'm going off on a tangent here but I need to post this before my brain goes blank...

Remember when Christian gave Jack that watch; which his father had given him? What item has Locke been given?... A compass...

The Island moves both through time (symbolised by the watch) and geographically (symbolised by the compass).

Christian's father gave him the watch originally. And whom gave Locke the compass?... Richard.

I believe that Richard Alpert is Locke's biological father.

Wow...then Locke and Jack would have to work together, or Locke and Claire, or Aaron...

But Richard didn't seem too fatherly...and Locke was supposed to kill his father, so... what does that mean? I feel a new thread coming on!

The richard theory is already on here somewhere.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: MangoBingo on March 03, 2009, 03:47:16 AM
The richard theory is already on here somewhere.

Really? I had no idea. I guess at this point, every possible angle has been speculated upon.

Richard does seem awfully fond of Locke and the more I think about it, the more it seems (in retrospect) that he's been "fatherly" towards him.
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Beej on March 03, 2009, 11:57:01 AM
I believe the reason why Ben killed Locke was because he knew that Mrs Hawking knew how to get back on the Island. Locke's purpose was to bring back the 06 but without Ben

By killing Locke who would be in charge to bring them back ? the only candidate was Ben. 
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: MangoBingo on March 03, 2009, 07:48:30 PM
The richard theory is already on here somewhere.

Found it!

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7871.0

 :)
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: MangoBingo on March 03, 2009, 07:52:38 PM
More doubt about Locke's biological parentage, here:

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7873.msg393057#msg393057

 :)
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: LostinLock on March 03, 2009, 08:09:48 PM
Mango- thanks for taking the time to look.  There are many things on here that have been looked into and it is just a quick search.

Yeah, I wax and wane with Richard being his father.  But he would be the only one who would possible fit being twice her age. 

Mango, check front page articles too, there might be something there about Richard.  Nice to see you, rather late eh? ;)


@beej

Ben killed him for the same reason he tried to kill Locke the first time he had information he (Ben) thought only he (Ben) should know.  He was mad because once again Locke was given detail.  Remember the first time he killed him is because Jacob spoke to him.

Hmmm you know which make me wonder if Ben killed the Dharma folks because they too were being reached out to by Jacob or other others!

Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: MangoBingo on March 03, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
Nice to see you, rather late eh? ;)

Yeah, I'm off to bed with a cup of cocoa. It's 00:11 here.  :-\
Title: Re: Suicide is a Sin (Reason for Ben Killing)
Post by: Harry Erickson on March 15, 2009, 06:40:42 AM
Ben is out only for Ben.  He killed Locke because he is jealous of him, and not for any greater good. 
I disagree because Johns death brought the losties to the island