Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x06 => Topic started by: lovinlost on February 19, 2009, 12:11:15 PM

Title: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lovinlost on February 19, 2009, 12:11:15 PM
I know that he said this, but we all know what a liar he is.
So the question is, can he go back, or not?

If he can't go back, why did he get on the plane?

He's gone and left many times before, the difference is that this time he turned the wheel to get off the island instead of whatever means he's used in the past.  He said whomever turns the wheel can't come back, right?  But was that just a lie to get Locke to believe that he has to die in order to get his friends back?

Then again, Richard told Locke he would have to die.

What do you all think?
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: blueeyed2200 on February 19, 2009, 12:15:34 PM
That is what I was kind of wondering. . . .  He seemed genuinely upset while turning the wheel by the thought of not ever being able to come back to the island.  Could it have been that he could come back to the island and that there was something else that was upsetting him??   I'm not really keen on the whole thought of "Charlotte is Ben's daughter" theory, but could it be he was upset about being the one that leaves the island because he knew turning the wheel would cause the island to start shifting times??  He could have been upset knowing that what he was about to do would be the ultimate demise for his daughter in the end . . . . I don't know that I fully believe this theory either, but it's a thought . .
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: surfmadpig on February 19, 2009, 12:56:18 PM
I really believe it's against the "rules" - whatever kind of rules they are - for him to get back to the island, and he's going to mess everything up now that he did.
Ben's too selfish, I'm wondering what kind of end he will have...
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Shakey on February 19, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
I think it was just what he believed based on the information he had at that time.  It would've been John who told him that the O6 had to return.  Ben just added himself to the equation so he could return as well.  Prior to this revelation, Ben believed he wouldn't be able to return.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: LOSTRULES on February 19, 2009, 01:02:43 PM
I was wondering about this too.
I really believe it's against the "rules" - whatever kind of rules they are - for him to get back to the island, and he's going to mess everything up now that he did.
Ben's too selfish, I'm wondering what kind of end he will have...
I agree with this. I think Ben is selfish and just wants to get back to the island anyway he can and now this is going to screw things up.
He did say that whoever moves the island can't come back and we know Ben is liar but I really do think he looked genuinely upset when he was turning the wheel. He also said to Jacob "I hope your happy"
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Maxor127 on February 19, 2009, 01:16:44 PM
I think in general you can't go back since you wouldn't be able to find the island again, but Ben found a way.  And I agree, I think his tears were genuine and he figured he'd probably never be able to return to the island, but he's clever and hatched a plan.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: hyperform on February 19, 2009, 01:32:57 PM
remember where we got the information that "whoever moves the island can never return".  From Ben, and we all know that Ben is a liar and apparently he wasn't supposed to turn the wheel anyways, Locke was. So I think even then Ben knew what was up and his plan was already in motion. I think the reason why he was crying was because he had definitely fallen out of favor with Jacob.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: gjohnson on February 19, 2009, 01:41:10 PM
This is great storytelling and acting. We don't know which things to believe from Ben and which to discard. Maybe there's nothing preventing him from going back other than finding the island, maybe he can't because its against the rules, maybe even he doesn't know the answer to that question. Reminds me of The Princess Bride: "We'll never survive." "Non-sense, you only say that because no one ever has."

We can't know right now, "even a broken clock is right twice a day..."
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: BobBX542 on February 19, 2009, 03:55:19 PM
I'm thinking that Ben was probably not allowed to return, but because he did so much to get the O6 back there, that maybe he will be forgiven, and allowed to return.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: jodeci on February 19, 2009, 04:15:21 PM
just because he was on the plane, doesn't mean he returned to the island.  we've only seen jack, kate, and hurley right?    what happened to the plane and everybody else on it?   ben could be with them
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Lyricc96 on February 19, 2009, 04:18:40 PM
Well Ben moved the Island and it looks like he might return. Did Locke move the island to or just stop it from skipping??? If he moved it, he should'nt be allowed to go back either, but it looks as though he will return to the island too!
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: jodeci on February 19, 2009, 04:23:05 PM
my impression was that locke was fixing the wheel, putting it back on it's axis to keep the island from time-hopping.
maybe ben is changing the rules as he claimed to widmore that he(widmore) changed the rules?
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Shakey on February 19, 2009, 04:32:50 PM
I was under the impression that he moved it again.  We know turning the wheel moves the island and ejects the person turning it.  Christian told John to say hi to his son.  So, this means John was ejected.  If John was ejected, then the island must have moved.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Lyricc96 on February 19, 2009, 04:36:32 PM
I just figured Locke had to have moved it somehow, thats how he gets off the island to visit Ben and the O6.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: BobBX542 on February 19, 2009, 05:16:18 PM
my impression was that locke was fixing the wheel, putting it back on it's axis to keep the island from time-hopping.
maybe ben is changing the rules as he claimed to widmore that he(widmore) changed the rules?

Or maybe because the rules were changed he is trying to get back.

just because he was on the plane, doesn't mean he returned to the island.  we've only seen jack, kate, and hurley right?    what happened to the plane and everybody else on it?   ben could be with them

Did you watch the scenes from next week's episode??
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: vickilynn on February 19, 2009, 06:03:15 PM
I think in general you can't go back since you wouldn't be able to find the island again, but Ben found a way.  And I agree, I think his tears were genuine and he figured he'd probably never be able to return to the island, but he's clever and hatched a plan.

But Ben used to go off the island before, right? And others did too (remember all those passports?)
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Lyricc96 on February 19, 2009, 06:39:13 PM
We all know that Ben had/has the ability to come and go from the island as he pleases. Whats confusing now is what he said to Locke, that if he moves the island he will not be allowed back. It seems the Donkey Wheel has some significance as to who remains or returns to the island. Ben  moved the island, so now what will that mean for him, will he be able to return and if so, will he live???
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: LostinLock on February 19, 2009, 07:13:41 PM
remember where we got the information that "whoever moves the island can never return".  From Ben, and we all know that Ben is a liar and apparently he wasn't supposed to turn the wheel anyways, Locke was. So I think even then Ben knew what was up and his plan was already in motion. I think the reason why he was crying was because he had definitely fallen out of favor with Jacob.

Hyper to expand further on this well stated post is that BEN IS THE BIGGEST LIAR there is.  Of course he fell out cause he knew damn well what he was doing.  He fell out of favor with the island ;D
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: trodge on February 20, 2009, 12:15:29 PM
But if spinning the wheel means you get can't go back, how can Locke go back when he's spun the wheel also?
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Lyricc96 on February 20, 2009, 12:23:35 PM
We already know he does return to the island. So I guess that does make Ben a liar. But I think there will be more revealed later as to Bens statement about returning to the island. There has to be some negative consequence or why would he have ever brought it up?
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lovinlost on February 20, 2009, 01:14:46 PM
But if spinning the wheel means you get can't go back, how can Locke go back when he's spun the wheel also?

Because Locke is different, special, and he was told he could return but he would have to die first in order to get his friends back to the island.

Ben, I don't believe, is special.  At least, not like Locke.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lovinlost on February 20, 2009, 01:16:42 PM
We already know he does return to the island. So I guess that does make Ben a liar. But I think there will be more revealed later as to Bens statement about returning to the island. There has to be some negative consequence or why would he have ever brought it up?

We know that Ben returns?  I did not know this yet.  Was it in the preview for next week and I missed it?
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Lyricc96 on February 20, 2009, 01:57:11 PM
No I meant we know Locke returns...we don't know for sure about Ben yet.
I agree with you 100% though, Locke is "special", Ben isn't, and he knows it!!!
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: BurkRoyer on February 20, 2009, 03:30:24 PM
Did Ben says, "never"  as in "They can never come back" or did he say "The can't come back"?  Maybe he just meant, "immediately"   I mean he was not able to come back immediately after he turned the wheel.  It's taken him over 3 years...

Or maybe he's just a liar...
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: jkbeaulieu on February 20, 2009, 03:39:46 PM
locke does not turn the wheel.  he puts it back on its axis.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Shakey on February 20, 2009, 03:52:18 PM
locke does not turn the wheel.  he puts it back on its axis.
There was a little turning involved, though.  He went the same direction as Ben.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on February 20, 2009, 04:01:27 PM
I don't know how much more off-island storytelling there will be, so if Ben doesn't get on the island, he basically doesn't have much of a role. That would be such a waste! He has to return...and I'm betting that he jumped on the plane with the rest of them hoping the island will take him in when it takes them. He reminds me of a little kid, like trying to hide vegetables in a napkin and hoping Mom'll just throw it out and not notice the veggies.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lovinlost on February 20, 2009, 04:03:55 PM
No I meant we know Locke returns...we don't know for sure about Ben yet.
I agree with you 100% though, Locke is "special", Ben isn't, and he knows it!!!

oh thanks, thought I missed something!

Yes, and I think Ben has been doing everything up to this point because he really knows the truth about Locke and Ben never was meant to be the leader but somehow he figured out a way into it??  And he doesn't want to relinquish to Locke.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: gjohnson on February 20, 2009, 04:15:16 PM
Okay, If I turn out to be right... I called it...

Ben returns to the island - in 2009, the losties are in the 70's with the Dharma folks!
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on February 20, 2009, 04:22:17 PM
Okay, If I turn out to be right... I called it...

Ben returns to the island - in 2009, the losties are in the 70's with the Dharma folks!

I can see this happening. That's Karma Island for you! Do you think he was in the canoe behind the I6? If he was, were his shipmates 2009 Others or other passengers from 316? Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: DizzyIzzy on February 20, 2009, 08:26:05 PM
Locke turned that wheel too?  They want him back on the island.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: MangoBingo on February 20, 2009, 08:49:59 PM
I know that he said this, but we all know what a liar he is.
So the question is, can he go back, or not?

Well, he did say to Widmore that Widmore had "changed the rules". Many assumed that this was purely in relation to Widmore's militia killing Alex, but maybe it was something else - and the former rules (such as not being able to return, after turning the wheel) don't apply anymore.

He's gone and left many times before, the difference is that this time he turned the wheel to get off the island instead of whatever means he's used in the past.

I'm pretty certain that would have been the DHARMA-constructed pod inside the Orchid Station (which Ben destroyed). It practically screamed "teleportation pod". I also think that this was the "magic box" which brought Anthony Cooper and Tom back to The Island.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: BobBX542 on February 23, 2009, 03:20:48 PM
He's gone and left many times before, the difference is that this time he turned the wheel to get off the island instead of whatever means he's used in the past.

I'm pretty certain that would have been the DHARMA-constructed pod inside the Orchid Station (which Ben destroyed). It practically screamed "teleportation pod". I also think that this was the "magic box" which brought Anthony Cooper and Tom back to The Island.

Seemed to me from what we saw in the video that it was more of a device to harness the energy in the FDW chamber so that they could manipulate time. But, you never know what can happen with exotic matter.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lostfromthestart on February 23, 2009, 03:43:10 PM
Locke's turn was to reset the wheel.  Not the same as Ben.  We have been lead to believe from Richard that Locke can return.  But he must die in order for everyone to come back.

- Could Ben have come back (under the rules he previously told Locke still applied) if he died, but he wasn't willing to even consider that an an option
- In resetting the wheel, did that alone stop the time jumps, but leave the I6 stranded in Dharma Days?  Or are they still jumping and something else must be done to get everything to its true time period?
- Are all the 316ers in the same time period?  Or did the O6 join the I6 in whatever time period they are in?  Where does leave Ben?  Where does that leave any other 316ers that survived?

Guess we've got more reason to continue watching.....
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lovinlost on February 23, 2009, 03:50:36 PM
Locke's turn was to reset the wheel.  Not the same as Ben.  We have been lead to believe from Richard that Locke can return.  But he must die in order for everyone to come back.

- Could Ben have come back (under the rules he previously told Locke still applied) if he died, but he wasn't willing to even consider that an an option
- In resetting the wheel, did that alone stop the time jumps, but leave the I6 stranded in Dharma Days?  Or are they still jumping and something else must be done to get everything to its true time period?
- Are all the 316ers in the same time period?  Or did the O6 join the I6 in whatever time period they are in?  Where does leave Ben?  Where does that leave any other 316ers that survived?

Guess we've got more reason to continue watching.....

I believe that you and other posters may be onto something with your last point.  I believe it's possible that they don't come back in the same time period.  The returning06 go to Dharma days and the "new" 316'ers are stuck on the island for the first time.  Which brings me to an interesting point:  Has this happened before?  Were the 816'ers part of a returning crew too???  (someone else has already posted this possibility so the credit is not mine)
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lostfromthestart on February 23, 2009, 03:54:16 PM
Locke's turn was to reset the wheel.  Not the same as Ben.  We have been lead to believe from Richard that Locke can return.  But he must die in order for everyone to come back.

- Could Ben have come back (under the rules he previously told Locke still applied) if he died, but he wasn't willing to even consider that an an option
- In resetting the wheel, did that alone stop the time jumps, but leave the I6 stranded in Dharma Days?  Or are they still jumping and something else must be done to get everything to its true time period?
- Are all the 316ers in the same time period?  Or did the O6 join the I6 in whatever time period they are in?  Where does leave Ben?  Where does that leave any other 316ers that survived?

Guess we've got more reason to continue watching.....

I believe that you and other posters may be onto something with your last point.  I believe it's possible that they don't come back in the same time period.  The returning06 go to Dharma days and the "new" 316'ers are stuck on the island for the first time.  Which brings me to an interesting point:  Has this happened before?  Were the 816'ers part of a returning crew too???  (someone else has already posted this possibility so the credit is not mine)

Hmmmm.  I had not seen this posted before.  Interesting.  So, what if some of the 815s are on the island in other time periods?  Could some of them be Others or Dharma folks?  Or even somewhere off in the future?
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: BobBX542 on February 23, 2009, 05:34:19 PM
It's very possible that instead of it being the same exact time loop, it's more of a general time loop. Like all of the events have to be similar to have it happen again. Which makes me think that I was right so long ago when I said everything we have seen from the opening of the first episode is all a flashback.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Lyricc96 on February 23, 2009, 07:18:01 PM
That could be very true and we are starting to see bits and pieces that could prove that theory, for example, Jin in the Darma uniform.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: JBRam on February 25, 2009, 01:47:00 AM
My guess is that Ben believes he can't return, but he is trying to anyways. I think he will succeed.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: LouE68 on February 25, 2009, 01:48:21 AM
I really think he lied about that too....
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: JBRam on February 25, 2009, 01:49:06 AM
I think he lied about being on the plane.

It was just a holographic projection of Ben.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: LouE68 on February 25, 2009, 01:53:33 AM
It was really smoky on the plane lol
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lovinlost on February 25, 2009, 11:55:31 AM
It's very possible that instead of it being the same exact time loop, it's more of a general time loop. Like all of the events have to be similar to have it happen again. Which makes me think that I was right so long ago when I said everything we have seen from the opening of the first episode is all a flashback.

I might very well have to agree with most of this, especially when put into context of what is happening to Desmond in Season 3 "Flashes Before Your Eyes"
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: Mrs Hume on February 25, 2009, 02:03:27 PM
Mrs Hawking seems to know a lot about all this. Did she know that Ben was going back? if so , maybe he had to go back since he was the one helping the island and it wasn't a normal departure. 
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: lostfromthestart on February 25, 2009, 03:27:13 PM
Ben lies.  Ben lies.  Ben lies.  How long till some of you buy this?  He always could go back, but ...... he lies!!

Or..... the rules changed.  But what changed them:
1) killing Penny in revenge for his daughter
2) killing Mrs Hawkins
3) killing Locke and returning with all the other o6ers
4) killing Des
5) killing Aaron and/or Charlie

Or something else.
Title: Re: Ben can't return to the island?
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on February 25, 2009, 04:05:04 PM
Ben lies.  Ben lies.  Ben lies.  How long till some of you buy this?  He always could go back, but ...... he lies!!

Or..... the rules changed.  But what changed them:
1) killing Penny in revenge for his daughter
2) killing Mrs Hawkins
3) killing Locke and returning with all the other o6ers
4) killing Des
5) killing Aaron and/or Charlie

Or something else.

LOL...Ben lies. Ben lies AND, when he doesn't lie, it's only because he's sneaky with semantics, so technically, he's not lying, just misleading.

What changed the rules, good question. And what exact rules have been changed? And if it has something to do with Desmond, that doesn't make sense because how did he get to be the special one to whom the rules don't apply in the first place? Is Desmond why Ben can or can't return to the island? And if it has to do with time travel... omb. Brain... exploded.  :o