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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x03 => Topic started by: MangoBingo on January 30, 2009, 04:40:48 PM

Title: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on January 30, 2009, 04:40:48 PM
Seeing as Locke had to convince Richard that he was from the future, raises an interesting question...

It would appear that Richard-in-the-past and the 1950s Others were unaware of the Island's time-distorting properties.

Which begs the question, why else are they there?
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: solost on January 30, 2009, 05:37:09 PM
Seeing as Locke had to convnice Richard that he was from the future, raises an interesting question...

It would appear that Richard-in-the-past and the 1950s Others were unaware of the Island's time-distorting properties.

Which begs the question, why else are they there?
I thought the same thing. It must be for the warm weather and beautifully view...LOL
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: WhatThe on January 30, 2009, 05:55:44 PM
Seeing as Locke had to convnice Richard that he was from the future, raises an interesting question...

It would appear that Richard-in-the-past and the 1950s Others were unaware of the Island's time-distorting properties.

Which begs the question, why else are they there?

Well, I was assuming that they Others were there because they were born there. Guys like Widmore and Ellie were there for other reasons, but nothing to do with time travel.

My question would be how did Richard get to the hospital to witness Locke's birth? I assumed before it was due to some "portal" that allowed travel to and from the island. But if Richard has no clue about time travel in 1954, then he has no clue about portals in 1954, either. I'm guessing his travel was by the good ol' sub back then as well...
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: JMart on January 30, 2009, 05:57:24 PM
it doesn't seem to be too difficult to get to the island at this time... perhaps it doesn't have a protective shell hiding it.. considering armies made it to the island... so perhaps then he just took a sub and went?

just a guess though
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on January 30, 2009, 06:11:25 PM
Seeing as Locke had to convnice Richard that he was from the future, raises an interesting question...

It would appear that Richard-in-the-past and the 1950s Others were unaware of the Island's time-distorting properties.

Which begs the question, why else are they there?

Well, when Richard talks to Locke in "The Brig," he said something about Locke helping them get back to what's really important, or the real work on the island, or something. But, as usual, he was completely vague about the whole thing.

Locke convincing Richard about time travel would also mean that 1954 is the earliest year that Richard and John meet as adults, I think.

Ben said that moving the island was "dangerous and unpredictable." Maybe if the donkey wheel hadn't been turned before, the Others wouldn't know that that meant "unglued from and bouncing around in time."
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on January 30, 2009, 06:19:09 PM
Seeing as Locke had to convnice Richard that he was from the future, raises an interesting question...

It would appear that Richard-in-the-past and the 1950s Others were unaware of the Island's time-distorting properties.

Which begs the question, why else are they there?

Well, when Richard talks to Locke in "The Brig," he said something about Locke helping them get back to what's really important, or the real work on the island, or something. But, as usual, he was completely vague about the whole thing.

Thank God for Lostpedia!

RICHARD: He wanted to embarrass you.

LOCKE: I'm sorry?

RICHARD: Ben knew you weren't gonna kill your own father. He put you in front of everyone in our camp just so they could all watch ya fail.

LOCKE: Why?

RICHARD: Cause when word got back here that there was a man with a broken spine on the plane who could suddenly walk again, well, people here began to get very excited because that, that could only happen to someone who was extremely special. But Ben doesn't want anyone to think you're special, John.

LOCKE: And why are you telling me this?

RICHARD: Ben has been wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems. We're looking for someone to remind us that we're here for more important reasons.

LOCKE: What do you want from me?

RICHARD: I want for you to find your purpose. And to do that, your father has to go, John. And since you're not gonna do it, I'm gonna suggest someone else.

What are they there for?  ???
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: patrixmith on January 30, 2009, 08:22:25 PM
Thanks for posting that convo between Richard and Locke. I totally forgot about that. I love it!
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on January 30, 2009, 08:48:18 PM
Well, I was assuming that they Others were there because they were born there. Guys like Widmore and Ellie were there for other reasons, but nothing to do with time travel.

I doubt that very few people were actually born on the Island. All of the Others, bar the unseen Jacob, seem to be recruits.

Ben passed comment to Locke that the Others routinely steal babies because they can't reproduce.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: jugdish on January 30, 2009, 11:42:33 PM
We do not know if Richard was really not believing the story of time travel or was he hiding what he knew.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Lottery Ticket on January 30, 2009, 11:59:06 PM
So in order for Jack to find his purpose his father had to go.
In order for Kate to find her purpose her father had to go
In order for Locke - we know how that ended
Sawyer's father is killed by Sawyer (or whatever his name is)
Desmond - ? no clue
Penny - please.
Ben's father gased in the truck
Alvar kills Magnus?
Christian killed his father?

Ok, some of that starts a pattern of behavior I would watch for.  You can't reach full enlightenment unless you kill your father? Very Shakespearean.

Is there a lost fan keeping an all character 'family tree' at a separate link?


Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: LostinAlaska on January 31, 2009, 12:51:20 AM
Seeing as Locke had to convince Richard that he was from the future, raises an interesting question...

It would appear that Richard-in-the-past and the 1950s Others were unaware of the Island's time-distorting properties.

Which begs the question, why else are they there?

I am not sure how this fits in, but so far I feel like Richard seems genuine? Like whatever he's studying, doing, or trying to accomplish is something he wants to figure out (rather then for money or power). I really honest to God thought we'd meet young Danielle Rousseau. As for the intentions of the whole Alpert crew I can only guess by their actions and vibes. They're paranoid. They speak Latin. They might've been the ones to kill the 4 Americans. Their all younger. Maybe they are protecting or studying something else? Like a fountain of youth? (assuming they really don't know about the time traveling) Maybe Richard from the future told Locke to convince him about time travel n such b/c it would work for Richard's best interests. Since Locke is a sheeple he went ahead and did it, thus changing Richard's whole future and outcome of island knowledge and somehow having Richard coming out on top??? IDK!? But it'd be kinda neat to see Richard and Abaddon having a conversation.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: WhatThe on January 31, 2009, 03:38:59 AM
We do not know if Richard was really not believing the story of time travel or was he hiding what he knew.

When he told Locke to make sure to give him the compass the next time they meet because he wouldn't know who he was, that more or less made me feel that Richard was unaware of time travel in 1954. Or else why give Locke the compass?
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: matahari on January 31, 2009, 04:41:58 AM
But 1st Richard attended to Locke's gunshot wound. Locke asked how Richard knew that he had been shot. Richard says that Locke told him. Locke looks surprised because he hadn't at that point in time, and Richard says something to the affect of...'well, you will." Richard brings it up 1st! Locke must eventually tell richard that Ethan shot him, after Ethan was "dead." Locke must explain the time travel thing to Richard. But! Richard must explain some stuff about the Island to Locke...and ME!
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Mrs Hume on February 01, 2009, 06:25:33 PM
yes, Richard said " well, you will "to john ( meaning john will tell Richard that Ethan shot him. and he did.) because when Richard helped Locke with his wound I think that is was a few yrs after the time flight 815 crashed, so they knew eachother and Richard knew the wheel was already turned and john was jumping time. and that the island situation wasn't fixed.  so i take it that Richard's whole sentence would be ..." Well, you will , tell me to come fix your leg when the beachcraft crashes in the jungle next time you time jump . and it will be 1954 so i wont know you" and that is exactly what john did. he told Richard everything when he gave him the compass in 1954.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: gjohnson on February 01, 2009, 06:38:19 PM
My take on this was that moving the island was "a measure of last resort" and that the mere fact that Locke had come back in time meant that the future held dire circumstances for the island. Also, Richard's reaction during the selection of items "test" when Locke picks the knife perhaps signals to Richard that there is conflict in the future.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Mrs Hume on February 01, 2009, 06:57:19 PM
My take on this was that moving the island was "a measure of last resort" and that the mere fact that Locke had come back in time meant that the future held dire circumstances for the island. Also, Richard's reaction during the selection of items "test" when Locke picks the knife perhaps signals to Richard that there is conflict in the future.

Were you the one who first said that ? because I thought that was a great idea when i first heard that. but then why does Richard say to lockes Mom, I'm sorry I wasted your time? it's a good idea but I don't know if it fits.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on February 01, 2009, 07:16:48 PM
Were you the one who first said that ? because I thought that was a great idea when i first heard that. but then why does Richard say to lockes Mom, I'm sorry I wasted your time? it's a good idea but I don't know if it fits.

Perhaps Richard isn't as all-knowing as we first thought and he simply assumed that he'd been observing and tracking the wrong John Locke.  ??? Maybe other John Lockes were visited after their birth; again in their childhood and later invited to Alpert's Summer Camp in their teens?
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Mrs Hume on February 01, 2009, 07:41:35 PM
yup OK I can see that . Oh but wait,  but other john Locke's from the same hospital on the same day?
 Sorry, i can't help it. I just can't help it. ahhhh I don't know if it has to do with me being a Gemini or not but i always see things 2 ways  ::). always. it drives me crazy and I'm sure others as well.  :-[
so I always tend to play the devils advocate.  :-\ even if I agree! lol
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on February 01, 2009, 07:56:25 PM
ahhhh I don't know if it has to do with me being a Gemini or not but i always see things 2 ways  ::). always. it drives me crazy and I'm sure others as well.  :-[
so I always tend to play the devils advocate.  :-\ even if I agree! lol


Hey! I don't necessarily agree with everything I post myself!  :) I just figure that sooner or later, I'll be right about something. lol
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: gjohnson on February 01, 2009, 08:02:22 PM
ahhhh I don't know if it has to do with me being a Gemini or not but i always see things 2 ways  ::). always. it drives me crazy and I'm sure others as well.  :-[
so I always tend to play the devils advocate.  :-\ even if I agree! lol


Hey! I don't necessarily agree with everything I post myself!  :) I just figure that sooner or later, I'll be right about something. lol
I wouldn't put money on all the things I post either... Just throwin' it out there and seein' what sticks!
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Mrs Hume on February 01, 2009, 08:06:05 PM
good. Thanks guys.  :)  I just don't want to be known as the girl who shoots everyones ideas down. It's just me looking at everything from 2 sides.
 Guess we are all in the same boat on here. One big happy family! lol  ;D
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Mommainternet on February 02, 2009, 09:13:32 AM

I doubt that very few people were actually born on the Island. All of the Others, bar the unseen Jacob, seem to be recruits.

Ben passed comment to Locke that the Others routinely steal babies because they can't reproduce.

Where are all the children?  The children that were taken.  What ever happened to them?
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: gjohnson on February 02, 2009, 11:00:17 AM
I'm guessing they're being kept safe in the temple.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: jugdish on February 02, 2009, 01:05:14 PM

I doubt that very few people were actually born on the Island. All of the Others, bar the unseen Jacob, seem to be recruits.

Ben passed comment to Locke that the Others routinely steal babies because they can't reproduce.

Where are all the children?  The children that were taken.  What ever happened to them?
We have seen them when Locke was with the others. When they wanted Locke to kill his dad.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on February 02, 2009, 02:33:16 PM
Ben passed comment to Locke that the Others routinely steal babies because they can't reproduce.

Where are all the children?  The children that were taken.  What ever happened to them?

Perhaps Ben was being a little too melodramatic when talking about taking children...

BEN: Hello John. Thanks for coming.

LOCKE: [Looks at the tape] What's that?

BEN: Juliet is gathering information for us at your former camp. She's determining if any of the women are pregnant. Then we're gonna go in and, take them.

LOCKE: Take them?

BEN: This is not the first time we've done this, John. Trust me, no-one will get hurt.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Brig_transcript

I doubt it was that common an occurrence seeing as nobody besides Rousseau's group, Henry Gale, Desmond, Yemi's plane and the passengers of Flight 815 appear to have landed on the Island since the purge.

But yeah, there were some teens and pre-teens in the Others camp. We never did figure out where Karl came from.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Still_lost06 on February 02, 2009, 02:46:24 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else already mentioned this ( concerning Richard getting off the island to see Locke as a baby) but I bet that the US military left their method of transportation behind. We know that the sub was originally used by the Dharma Initiative, but who knows where the boat that Michael used to get off the island came from.

Concerning the main topic: We know now that Richard himself isn't moving through time but that he is old.
"How old is he anyway?"
"Old."
And he isn't 'all-knowing' or anything. Maybe he didn't know about the island's time properties yet because Jacob hadn't told him yet. Remember, when he cleans Locke's gun shot wound from Ethan, he seems to know about the situation at hand (and that Ethan shot him). Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: BurkRoyer on February 02, 2009, 03:34:29 PM
...
I doubt it was that common an occurrence seeing as nobody besides Rousseau's group, Henry Gale, Desmond, Yemi's plane and the passengers of Flight 815 appear to have landed on the Island since the purge.

But yeah, there were some teens and pre-teens in the Others camp. We never did figure out where Karl came from.

There are still a lot of untold stories, I believe.  I'm guessing there were other people that the island brought to it that we just haven't heard about yet.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on February 02, 2009, 03:51:20 PM
There are still a lot of untold stories, I believe.

When Richard described Ben's obsession with being able to reproduce on the Island as "wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems" he probably had a point. In later episodes it was revealed that some Others can come and go as they please, so why not just make babies off-Island?

I still think that Jack's wife Sarah was an off-Island Other whom had come to the outside world, purely to get pregnant and give birth. How did Juliet know her for a start? Juliet of all people - whom just happens to be a fertility expert.

And what about Sarah's ex-fiance, Kevin? Sarah's nearly lost her life and all he can think about is ****ing her!!!

[FLASHBACK to Jack and Sarah's fiance, Kevin, in Jack's office.]

JACK: Your fiance was seriously injured. It could take as long as 10, maybe 12 hours. I won't know how extensive the damage is until I get inside.

KEVIN: She was going for a dress fitting and to look at tablecloths.

JACK: When is it -- the wedding?

KEVIN: It's 8 months.

JACK: Well, I'm sure Sarah will have recovered by then.

KEVIN: Um, what does that mean?

JACK: There will be ongoing physical therapy, but if she works really hard...

KEVIN: Well, well, will we be able to, you know, make love?

JACK: You need to know that there's a chance Sarah may very well need professional care for the rest of her life.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Man_of_Science%2C_Man_of_Faith_transcript

Not only is that an incredibly insensitive question, but he walked out of her life soon after the conversation!

He was probably an off-Island Other too! Very odd behaviour indeed.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: TheBrightandTheDark on February 02, 2009, 06:10:28 PM

When Richard described Ben's obsession with being able to reproduce on the Island as "wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems" he probably had a point. In later episodes it was revealed that some Others can come and go as they please, so why not just make babies off-Island?


Yeah, I thought this quote of Richard's was very strange, too. How can fertility problems be a waste of time? When I first heard it I thought, "oh, so, not having babies on the island at all is the normal thing?" Don't they want to propagate the species?

But one of the reasons for having children is to pass on traditions, and to overcome death. Children are often seen as a path to immortality, keeping your DNA alive and all. But if Richard (and other Others) are immortal, they would see fertility as a waste of time. Since Ben is mortal (and also power-hungry and just a tad selfish), he wants to be able to ensure that his lifestyle and mindset is preserved.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: Mrs Hume on February 02, 2009, 07:11:41 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else already mentioned this ( concerning Richard getting off the island to see Locke as a baby) but I bet that the US military left their method of transportation behind. We know that the sub was originally used by the Dharma Initiative, but who knows where the boat that Michael used to get off the island came from.

Concerning the main topic: We know now that Richard himself isn't moving through time but that he is old.
"How old is he anyway?"
"Old."
And he isn't 'all-knowing' or anything. Maybe he didn't know about the island's time properties yet because Jacob hadn't told him yet. Remember, when he cleans Locke's gun shot wound from Ethan, he seems to know about the situation at hand (and that Ethan shot him). Just my 2 cents.


the sub could be how they go through time. and that is why they had to knock Juliet out while traveling there. or the sub is a sub and they just did that because of the effect of going through the bubble (which I also believe is going to a different time dimension ) I just confused myself.  :-\
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on February 02, 2009, 07:13:57 PM
the sub could be how they go through time. and that is why they had to knock Juliet out while traveling there. or the sub is a sub and they just did that because of the effect of going through the bubble (which I also believe is going to a different time dimension ) I just confused myself.  :-\

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=8484.msg493345#msg493345

It's more than likely that the submarine was just a prop.
Title: Re: Seeing As Locke Had To CONVINCE Richard That He Was From The Future...
Post by: MangoBingo on February 05, 2009, 06:27:51 PM
You know... I think I already answered my own question as to why else Richard and the Others may be there (if not for the time-bending properties of the Island).

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=8066.msg415018#msg415018

 :)