Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x09 => Topic started by: MangoBingo on April 25, 2008, 07:56:16 PM

Title: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: MangoBingo on April 25, 2008, 07:56:16 PM
If Ben has had the ability to activate (if not control) The Smoke Monster all along, why didn't he "switch it on" as soon as he was aware that security had been breached?

Did I miss something?  ???
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: gjohnson on April 25, 2008, 08:43:01 PM
I may be wrong about this, but if there is indeed a richer form of time travel/teleportation than we have seen so far, Ben did more than just summon Smokie while he was in that cave. He may have traveled to the future to start hunting Widmore's people and deliver his threat on Penny's life.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: MangoBingo on April 25, 2008, 08:52:21 PM
I may be wrong about this, but if there is indeed a richer form of time travel/teleportation than we have seen so far, Ben did more than just summon Smokie while he was in that cave. He may have traveled to the future to start hunting Widmore's people and deliver his threat on Penny's life.

But he didn't have bruises on his face whilst in Tunisia, Iraq or England.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 25, 2008, 10:33:45 PM
Right. No time travel from the secret room, at least not yesterday.

I don't think Ben can really control Smokie. Once it's loose it's dangerous to everyone. Hence only used in desperate situations. Just my best guess.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: MangoBingo on April 25, 2008, 10:46:24 PM
I don't think Ben can really control Smokie. Once it's loose it's dangerous to everyone. Hence only used in desperate situations. Just my best guess.

So, it was a last resort?
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 25, 2008, 10:48:47 PM
Yup. And the reason they had to run in the opposite direction as fast as they could.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 25, 2008, 10:53:46 PM
Ben clearly spiked Smokey's kool-aid and let him loose, depending upon his knowledge of Smokey's programming, which likely can identify the most serious threat to the island, in this case posed by the group of mercenaries who were on the island less than a day and, literally or metaphorically, smelled of off-islanders, i.e. a threat.  My guess is that Smokey's rampage in the woods the night of the plane crash was because it smelled a large group of new people, which indicated a threat to the island.  However, he might be unable to approach within a certain distance of the ocean/beach, which is supported by the fact that we've never seem Smokey near/on the beach.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 25, 2008, 10:57:02 PM
No Ben didn't control it. Perhaps he has to say a few works like Okay Smoke boy you hungry and want to whoop some mercenaries?  Go and get em.....


When he was in Tunisia it was the future, but did anyone remember the whoosh for flash forward?  I thought that designated a flash forward.

I dont' think the questions are stupid, but I do believe they have been asked an answered in other threads.

I hope we helped you
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: jugdish on April 25, 2008, 10:57:12 PM
I think if he released smokie earlier it would of just killed ALex with the rest of them.
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview. BUt I digress.

He had to be clear of it before he summoned smokie.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 25, 2008, 10:59:47 PM
Ben clearly spiked Smokey's kool-aid and let him loose, depending upon his knowledge of Smokey's programming, which likely can identify the most serious threat to the island, in this case posed by the group of mercenaries who were on the island less than a day and, literally or metaphorically, smelled of off-islanders, i.e. a threat.  My guess is that Smokey's rampage in the woods the night of the plane crash was because it smelled a large group of new people, which indicated a threat to the island.  However, he might be unable to approach within a certain distance of the ocean/beach, which is supported by the fact that we've never seem Smokey near/on the beach.

I believe that Smokey was near the beach the night they crashed on the island.  The same monster sound came from him and he was knocking down the trees just like last night.  We just may not have noticed the smoke because it was dark and they wanted us guessing.    Yeah to bad he missed the one mercenary I wanted to see flung bag and forth a few times.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: MangoBingo on April 25, 2008, 11:01:49 PM
I think if he released smokie earlier it would of just killed ALex with the rest of them.

That makes the most sense. I can live with that.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 26, 2008, 12:11:39 AM

I believe that Smokey was near the beach the night they crashed on the island.  The same monster sound came from him and he was knocking down the trees just like last night. 

Yes. He was near the beach, but never got closer than 1/4 mile from it.  And the Losties have never been attacked by Smokey in their camp in the trees along the beach.  That tells me that either Smokey can't get within a 1/4 mile of the Ocean, or that he's limited in his range, perhaps by the system of tunnels he's always crashing out of.  AHAH! Maybe what Ben was doing down in his cave was opening some big greasy valve in the tunnel system to provide Smokey an egress right smack dab in Othertown where the Mercenaries were crouched down.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: JBRam on April 26, 2008, 12:18:30 AM
I have a slightly different take...

Ben only "released" Smokey after he said that Keamy broke the rules. I have a feeling Ben didn't release Smokey on them because it would be against the rules.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Shoeless on April 26, 2008, 12:19:19 AM
I believe that Smokey was near the beach the night they crashed on the island. . .
I believe I'd just read that it was the boars going thru the wreckage the first night, it struck a chord with me 'cos I hadn't known that before. Sorry I can't remember "where" I'd read it tho'  :(
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: JBRam on April 26, 2008, 12:38:43 AM
I believe that Smokey was near the beach the night they crashed on the island. . .
I believe I'd just read that it was the boars going thru the wreckage the first night, it struck a chord with me 'cos I hadn't known that before. Sorry I can't remember "where" I'd read it tho'  :(
No, Smokey was there. The trees moved and Charlie said, "Guys, where are we?"
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Writers_Strike on April 26, 2008, 01:08:40 AM
I have a slightly different take...

Ben only "released" Smokey after he said that Keamy broke the rules. I have a feeling Ben didn't release Smokey on them because it would be against the rules.

I agree, It feels like Windmore and Ben are having a gentalmans fued with clearly defined rules on how to keep/ take the island. Once Alex died contract was Null and Void-Game on Bitches!
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: JBRam on April 26, 2008, 01:14:58 AM
I think the rules involved no murdering of family members... that's why Ben is going after Penny.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: WhatThe on April 26, 2008, 03:37:33 AM
I have a slightly different take...

Ben only "released" Smokey after he said that Keamy broke the rules. I have a feeling Ben didn't release Smokey on them because it would be against the rules.

I agree, It feels like Windmore and Ben are having a gentalmans fued with clearly defined rules on how to keep/ take the island. Once Alex died contract was Null and Void-Game on Bitches!

LoL! I agree with this as well. Whatever the "rules" are, Ben felt they had been broken/changed, so he said "f*ck it, then" and released Smokie on 'em.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: opgelost on April 26, 2008, 07:07:28 AM
Quote
Ben only "released" Smokey after he said that Keamy broke the rules. I have a feeling Ben didn't release Smokey on them because it would be against the rules.
I totally agree !!

Quote
I think if he released smokie earlier it would of just killed ALex with the rest of them.
He didn't know they had Alex, till Miles comes.

Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: MangoBingo on April 26, 2008, 08:45:32 AM

Quote
I think if he released smokie earlier it would of just killed ALex with the rest of them.
He didn't know they had Alex, till Miles comes.


That's a good point. So, why not just activate the Smoke Monster in the first place?
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Rebel 3:16 on April 26, 2008, 09:04:19 AM
And how did he know it would kill the frieghters? After all it didnt kill Locke, in fact Locke had a moment with Smokey which he described as being beautiful and also Eko got let off a beating the first time he met Smokey.
I think Ben was reluctant to release Smokey inside the comune, that caused his hesitation, but Smokey couldnt get inside the comune when it chased Juliet and Kate due to his 'fear' on the security fence so there must be either several exit points ar several Smokeys. Also it is interesting why Smokey wont go onto the beach, maybe his 'chain' dosent reach that far or he stays near to (or is grounded by) his exit holes.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: opgelost on April 26, 2008, 09:28:30 AM
Releasing Smokey caused an earthquake like when Ben was young and Annie said the hostiles came.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 26, 2008, 10:16:49 AM
Interesting thought, Opge, perhaps the security system was under better control back in those days....

I don't think it's under much control now. Ben releases it as a last resort 'cause he doesn't know exactly what it will do. And then they run away 'cause, well, he doesn't know exactly what it'll do.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Rebel 3:16 on April 26, 2008, 01:20:14 PM
Ben was reluctant to release Smokey - so how, in the past when we have seen Smokey running amock, does Ben or anyone else, contain Smokey again?
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: gods_child on April 26, 2008, 02:06:24 PM
no ben says, the rules have changed, i think that means there r certain things u just dont do unless the other does sumting bad first. like war laws that restrict certain actions. just want 2 say that the pic of smokey looks like the face is a polar bear?
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: PrincessLeia on April 26, 2008, 03:53:43 PM
I have a slightly different take...

Ben only "released" Smokey after he said that Keamy broke the rules. I have a feeling Ben didn't release Smokey on them because it would be against the rules.

I agree, It feels like Windmore and Ben are having a gentalmans fued with clearly defined rules on how to keep/ take the island. Once Alex died contract was Null and Void-Game on Bitches!

LoL! I agree with this as well. Whatever the "rules" are, Ben felt they had been broken/changed, so he said "f*ck it, then" and released Smokie on 'em.
LOL & I agree. :)

Ben didn't summon Smokey, but he unleashed him somehow.  The Others have limited control over Smokey, but his 1st allegiance is to the Island.  Smokey is a last resort because of the likely higher percentage of collateral damage.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 26, 2008, 04:02:59 PM
I think the rules involved no murdering of family members... that's why Ben is going after Penny.

If the rules do concern no going after family members, then Widmore has a point, as Ben did proclaim out loud that Alex wasn't his daughter, that he stole her from a crazy woman, and that she meant nothing to him.  Merely a pawn.  So, arguably, shooting her would not break some no-family rule, and therefore Ben does bear responsibility for Alex's death.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 26, 2008, 07:08:09 PM
I believe that Smokey was near the beach the night they crashed on the island. . .
I believe I'd just read that it was the boars going thru the wreckage the first night, it struck a chord with me 'cos I hadn't known that before. Sorry I can't remember "where" I'd read it tho'  :(

I didn't say it was on the beach, I said it was near the beach and about 20.30 into the pilot you see the palm trees falling down, and that sound that Smokey makes.  So I don't believe it was boars taking down the tall trees and the gang was all near the fuselage with fires going.  I remember this scene as it reminded me of a the movie forbidden planet and the "invisible" security system on that planet went after the team that landed there.

the boars did go through the fuselage at night and scared people and that is when they made the decision to burn it I believe that was episode 2. 

Oh and after playing back both the pilot scene and this last episode smokey was making the same sounds he did in the pilot, though on a much higher playing field.

This security system, my pal smokey, is intuitative to figure out who is good and who is bad.  As for Ben's involvment in convincing, asking what ever term we want to use here, was because if they didn't get out of that house they would all be dead.  At this point I believe that Ben was thinking what tricks to I have up my sleeve.

It was very interesting that instead of bringing everyone though his secret passage, he put them back outside.

Now what we all have missed in the entire thread, unless my glasses are failing me, is Locke said to Ben you lied to me you said you didn't know what the smoke monster was.  Ben replies to him and tell him he can ask Jacob when he sees him.

So all our speculation on who makes the monster tick may just lay with the man behind the curtain!  The "wizard" himself Jacob!
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: joshzam on April 26, 2008, 10:02:36 PM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: joshzam on April 26, 2008, 10:08:28 PM
Did we ever find out what the electrical fence around Otherville was really intended for?

I know that someone said something about it keeping Smokie out, but were they telling the truth? We've seen Smokie fly high through the air. Why not just fly over the fence?

Was it meant to keep people out? It looked pretty easy to just knock a tree down and climb over the thing.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 26, 2008, 10:14:45 PM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.

Umm Jugdish is a moderator I believe he knows what the rules are! ;)
Did we ever find out what the electrical fence around Otherville was really intended for?

I know that someone said something about it keeping Smokey out, but were they telling the truth? We've seen Smokier fly high through the air. Why not just fly over the fence?

Was it meant to keep people out? It looked pretty easy to just knock a tree down and climb over the thing.

I believe Ben explained it not in detail, but it was a security fence to keep unwanted out.  When Alex put in the security code it was one that notified them that danger was imminent.  Drawing from the obvious to me it is a security fence.  Perhaps scalable, but when it was in full use I am sure folks couldn't get over it.

 ;)
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: joshzam on April 26, 2008, 11:29:07 PM
Umm Jugdish is a moderator I believe he knows what the rules are! ;)

I don't care if he is a moderator, telling me what's going to happen in a future episode ruins part of the show. All I ask for is a little common courtesy.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LouE68 on April 26, 2008, 11:34:19 PM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
I believe it's posted in the rules of the site, that any preview broadcast on national TV is accepable to post on here...
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: JMart on April 27, 2008, 01:44:24 AM
the fence was designed to keep smokey out.. so by alex unlocking the gate, smokey was probably like, "hey fellas [to all the other mini smokey's] let's combine and finallllllllllllly get into the othersville" and so then ben knew smokey was coming, went into the room, through that wall, and sprayed himself with anti-smokey stuff.






its obvious.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 27, 2008, 09:10:42 AM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
I believe it's posted in the rules of the site, that any preview broadcast on national TV is accepable to post on here...

Thank you Cowboy that is correct those are the rules and that was explained to me by Castaway

the fence was designed to keep smokey out.. so by alex unlocking the gate, smokey was probably like, "hey fellas [to all the other mini smokey's] let's combine and finallllllllllllly get into the othersville" and so then ben knew smokey was coming, went into the room, through that wall, and sprayed himself with anti-smokey stuff.
its obvious.

JMart-  No I disagree.  In what episode did it specifically say that the fence was built to keep out Smokey?  It was a Dharma compound, so having a security fence to keep other people out. I mean why would they have a code for Alex to punch and have it ring to a phone because Smokey was chasing her or anyone at that point?  As we have witnessed if Smokey wants you Smokey will get you.  So having an alarm system to get you back into the fence makes no sense.

I also I don't believe after seeing the door within the hidden room that Smokey was a concern to the anyone in the compound.  Ben did say his people were committed to dying for the island. 

Smokey is a protector of the island, it's a security system, so whatever Ben had to do to get them out of the house and back to Jacob he accomplished.  I believe he told whatever that Alex had been killed, she was dedicated to the island, she was born and lived on the island. 

Smokey was taking a nap and then gathered all it's pieces together and came out like a freight train and zeroed in on the intruders, therefore eliminating the intruders.

That's  my story and I am sticking to it. ;D

Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: PrincessLeia on April 27, 2008, 01:47:53 PM
JMart-  No I disagree.  In what episode did it specifically say that the fence was built to keep out Smokey?  It was a Dharma compound, so having a security fence to keep other people out. I mean why would they have a code for Alex to punch and have it ring to a phone because Smokey was chasing her or anyone at that point?  As we have witnessed if Smokey wants you Smokey will get you.  So having an alarm system to get you back into the fence makes no sense.
While I won't say that the fence was specifically designed to keep Smokey out, Juliet did tell Kate,"We don't know what it is but we know it doesn't like our fences."  Juliet hasn't always been entirely truthful, but it does make sense based on what we saw happen in that episode ("Left Behind"). 

I also noticed the earthquake preceding Smokey's sweep through Othersville, which reminded me of the one in Ben's childhood flashback.  If Smokey's loyalty is to the Island, he never wanted Dharma there, so it stands to reason that keeping him out may be one of the fence's primary purposes.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 27, 2008, 02:05:41 PM
JMart-  No I disagree.  In what episode did it specifically say that the fence was built to keep out Smokey?  It was a Dharma compound, so having a security fence to keep other people out. I mean why would they have a code for Alex to punch and have it ring to a phone because Smokey was chasing her or anyone at that point?  As we have witnessed if Smokey wants you Smokey will get you.  So having an alarm system to get you back into the fence makes no sense.
While I won't say that the fence was specifically designed to keep Smokey out, Juliet did tell Kate,"We don't know what it is but we know it doesn't like our fences."  Juliet hasn't always been entirely truthful, but it does make sense based on what we saw happen in that episode ("Left Behind"). 

I also noticed the earthquake preceding Smokey's sweep through Othersville, which reminded me of the one in Ben's childhood flashback.  If Smokey's loyalty is to the Island, he never wanted Dharma there, so it stands to reason that keeping him out may be one of the fence's primary purposes.

PL I remember that episode and thought of that when posting, but Juliette is not an original Dharma.  Her knowledge is based on Ben's information and what she has seen.

I am referring to when Dharma put it up, which is who created that compound.   It was there when Ben was a boy and I don't believe that anyone knows what Smokey was doing then? But Dharma had conflict with the original habitants and that is why Richard was outside the fence, when Ben encountered him.

So the original intent is still not evident but I think we can all agree that it was to secure the compound.  From what or who is still a good guess.

Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 27, 2008, 04:07:10 PM
I am referring to when Dharma put it up, which is who created that compound.   It was there when Ben was a boy and I don't believe that anyone knows what Smokey was doing then? But Dharma had conflict with the original habitants and that is why Richard was outside the fence, when Ben encountered him.

So the original intent is still not evident but I think we can all agree that it was to secure the compound.  From what or who is still a good guess.

I think this is accurate.  Dharma clearly erected the fence, perhaps soon after coming to the island (in the 60s?) to defend the compound against the Hostiles.  However, what was to prevent the engineers from designing it for the additional purpose of keeping Smokey out?  Left Behind made clear that although Smokey can achieve an altitude above the top of the fence when erupting from one of his tunnels, he can't achieve that altitude when moving along the ground.

Whatever Ben did in his cave to, as Hurley said, release that thing, likely entailed the unblocking of a tunnel beneath the fence with an opening in Othertown, hence all the earthquakes as Smokey moved through the tunnels and erupted out.  I'm now curious whether Smokey is a creation of Dharma, or did it exist prior to Dharma?
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: opgelost on April 27, 2008, 04:29:23 PM
I remember Dharma said the fence was to keep out wild animals.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 27, 2008, 04:33:47 PM
Yeah, which is confirmed here:

    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Sonic_fence

However, the wild animals excuse may have been a Dharma deception, to downplay the threat of the Hostiles or Smokey, which would've freaked out people like Ben's papa.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: opgelost on April 27, 2008, 04:51:09 PM
They knew about the hostiles. No deception needed for that.

I said in another post: when Ben released Smokey in the last episode it caused an aerthquake like when Ben was young at school
and Annie said not to worry, because it were just the hostiles.

If Smokey causes the earthquake, Smokey was used by the hostiles and the sonic fence was to keep Smokey out, like you say
or
Smokey was used by Dharma (the cave to release him is in Ben's house) and the sonic fence was to keep wild polar bears out.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 27, 2008, 05:53:35 PM
I am referring to when Dharma put it up, which is who created that compound.   It was there when Ben was a boy and I don't believe that anyone knows what Smokey was doing then? But Dharma had conflict with the original habitants and that is why Richard was outside the fence, when Ben encountered him.

So the original intent is still not evident but I think we can all agree that it was to secure the compound.  From what or who is still a good guess.

I think this is accurate.  Dharma clearly erected the fence, perhaps soon after coming to the island (in the 60s?) to defend the compound against the Hostiles.  However, what was to prevent the engineers from designing it for the additional purpose of keeping Smokey out?  Left Behind made clear that although Smokey can achieve an altitude above the top of the fence when erupting from one of his tunnels, he can't achieve that altitude when moving along the ground.

Whatever Ben did in his cave to, as Hurley said, release that thing, likely entailed the unblocking of a tunnel beneath the fence with an opening in Othertown, hence all the earthquakes as Smokey moved through the tunnels and erupted out.  I'm now curious whether Smokey is a creation of Dharma, or did it exist prior to Dharma?

I have believed that Smokey is natural to the island. One of the long mysteries here. 
They knew about the hostiles. No deception needed for that.

I said in another post: when Ben released Smokey in the last episode it caused an aerthquake like when Ben was young at school
and Annie said not to worry, because it were just the hostiles.

If Smokey causes the earthquake, Smokey was used by the hostiles and the sonic fence was to keep Smokey out, like you say
or
Smokey was used by Dharma (the cave to release him is in Ben's house) and the sonic fence was to keep wild polar bears out.


Dharma must have known about the existence of the previous inhabitants and I am talking about prior to what they refer to as the hostiles.

Because if you think about Ben's house, it contains a secret room, that has an ancient door that leads to what we believe is a cave or tunnel or whatever.  Now the other interesting thing about the house is the basement also has hallways and rooms. Ben had a room down there and so did John Locke's father. 

So when it comes down to it the existence of Smokey has been known for some time. As to his being welcome inside or outside of the camp is yet another story. But as Ben promised Jacob the elder of the island as I will not refer to him has the answers.

I can't wait to hear what he has to say, because if I am right it will prove some interesting points.

OH yes and Thank you for getting the straight answer on why the fence was originally erected.  I can sleep tonight ;)
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 27, 2008, 08:01:48 PM
Because if you think about Ben's house, it contains a secret room, that has an ancient door that leads to what we believe is a cave or tunnel or whatever.  Now the other interesting thing about the house is the basement also has hallways and rooms. Ben had a room down there and so did John Locke's father. 

Thanks for pointing this out.  This had crossed my mind, but I hadn't put 2 & 2 together to realize that Dharma must have located the head honcho's house in the Barracks over the access door to the more ancient secret room where Smokey could be controlled.  That would of course imply that Smokey preceded Dharma, and that the tunnels were possibily built by Dharma to help control/guide Smokey. 

Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Asmodean on April 27, 2008, 08:07:40 PM
I have a slightly different take...

Ben only "released" Smokey after he said that Keamy broke the rules. I have a feeling Ben didn't release Smokey on them because it would be against the rules.

I like this theory JB.  Now all we need is a copy of the dang rule book.  I'll call coach Belichick.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 27, 2008, 08:15:11 PM
They knew about the hostiles. No deception needed for that.

Have to disagree on this point.  Dharma may have been started by the DeGroots as a utopian research project, but appears to have become stratified and prone to information manipulation.  Remember the film splice found by Mr. Ecko that had been removed from the Swan station orientation film? That suggested that there was an element trying to spin what Dharma Initiative employees knew, beyond the psychological experiments they were running.  Further, Ben's father was seen complaining to Horace Goodspeed that he needed hazard pay, as he hadn't been told initially about all the danger posed by the Hostiles.

This is akin to the current situation with the American people and what they know/have come to know about the Iraqi insurgency.  It has taken perhaps several years for the facade of misinformation to wear thin, and public support and perceptions to fall closer in line to reality.  Similarly, there was probably a disinformation campaign disseminated by the Dharma higher-ups to gloss over the true situation with the Hostiles.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Creflo on April 28, 2008, 01:51:43 PM
Partisan political commentary aside, my thoughts on the connection between Ben's visit to the secret doorway and the Smoke Monster's attack:

- If the attacks by Smokie are based on ethical considerations (Eko failed to repent, X.X...Juliet was scanned and released...Locke was scanned and he beheld a wondrous vision), then maybe Ben used the magic door to dig up dirt on the operatives.

- If he went back and altered something about their past, it could've caused Smokie to course-correct...rubbing them out.

Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: jugdish on April 28, 2008, 02:41:34 PM
Not buying this one.

Smokie took time to read Juliet, Locke and Eko himself. Did not just attack like we saw this week. I think this shows that it was told or directed what to do.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 28, 2008, 06:05:31 PM
Hmmm.... in Juliet's case, as far as we know, Smokie would have attacked if it could have gotten to her. It sure looked like it was gonna attack when it smashed into the fence.

But good points on Eko and Locke... Particularly Eko where it held up once then attacked lethally later....
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 28, 2008, 09:48:03 PM
Not buying this one.

Smokie took time to read Juliet, Locke and Eko himself. Did not just attack like we saw this week. I think this shows that it was told or directed what to do.

What about the pilot, Seth? That would mean that Smokey would have had to have 'read' Seth prior to Charlie, Kate & Jack showing up at the cockpit in the Pilot episode.  I think it's more likely that certain, radically disruptive situations can cause Smokey to raise its 'threat level response' all on its own.  So, if a plane crashes onto the island, that might automatically provoke a stronger countermeasure from Smokey.  But I agree with your primary presumption that whatever Ben did served to dramatically heighten Smokey's attack, as we've never seen Smokey so huge & enraged as in The Shape of Things to Come.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 28, 2008, 10:38:36 PM
Why can't the answer be simple?  Ben knocked on Smokey door.  Smokey was reading the latest issue of how to keep the fire in your romance.  He listened to Ben tell him about Alex and then he got all p'd off and blew out of the ground and took care of business.

Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: sillysab on April 29, 2008, 01:25:33 PM
I think if he released smokie earlier it would of just killed ALex with the rest of them.
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview. BUt I digress.

He had to be clear of it before he summoned smokie.

YEAH... WHY DOESN'T IT KILL THEM ALL??? This was the only thing that bothered me about this episode plus the fact that the producers/writers are doing their typical, is he a good guy/bad guy thing which drives me nuts too.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Writers_Strike on April 29, 2008, 01:29:52 PM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
Really? How can you not watch Previews?? It builds the suspence for the next week.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostinLock on April 29, 2008, 01:31:40 PM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
Really? How can you not watch Previews?? It builds the suspence for the next week.

Yes, I agree, it's like not reading your e-mail...okay not a good analogy but you get the point
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: T Mack on April 29, 2008, 05:13:42 PM
I think if he released smokie earlier it would of just killed ALex with the rest of them.
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview. BUt I digress.

He had to be clear of it before he summoned smokie.
It will be interesting to see if Keamy acknowledges/knows/understands Smokie in any way in future episodes. (He will probably get killed off like so many others with good information that they never share, however!).

How Keamy kept from becoming Smoke monster food will probably never be explained either.  It seems to be able to kill/attack whoever it wants, so I will be interested to see if Keamy every acknowledges any interaction with it or questions it.  Could Keamy have advanced knowledge of the islands most secret weapon and powerful security system before he ever encountered it and so that's how he escaped? 
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: T Mack on April 29, 2008, 05:18:33 PM
Partisan political commentary aside, my thoughts on the connection between Ben's visit to the secret doorway and the Smoke Monster's attack:

- If the attacks by Smokie are based on ethical considerations (Eko failed to repent, X.X...Juliet was scanned and released...Locke was scanned and he beheld a wondrous vision), then maybe Ben used the magic door to dig up dirt on the operatives.

- If he went back and altered something about their past, it could've caused Smokie to course-correct...rubbing them out.


Remember Locke (and/or Rousseau?) told them to be still and it would pass when they encountered Smokie going to the Blackrock.

Juliet and Kate were still in the tree when Smokie stopped pursuing them and "took pictures" or scanned them.
Eko was still when Smokie stopped coming for him and began scanning him.

Maybe Smokie is only attracted to/can only follow motion.  If something is still, it can't "see" the target or calls off the attack.  Everyone that has been attacked severely has been moving, running through the jungle.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 29, 2008, 05:33:18 PM
Maybe Smokie is only attracted to/can only follow motion.  If something is still, it can't "see" the target or calls off the attack.  Everyone that has been attacked severely has been moving, running through the jungle.

Like a hunter-seeker in Dune:
   http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Hunter_Seeker

How Keamy kept from becoming Smoke monster food will probably never be explained either.  It seems to be able to kill/attack whoever it wants, so I will be interested to see if Keamy every acknowledges any interaction with it or questions it.  Could Keamy have advanced knowledge of the islands most secret weapon and powerful security system before he ever encountered it and so that's how he escaped? 

I'm sure it's like how Paul Reiser had additional information in Aliens, and his own agenda.  Probably just Naomi and Keamy were told about  Smokey.  Keamy's the kinda guy who'd not tell his fellow mercs, as he knew that, were Smokey to attack, while the other soldiers were futilely firing at Smokey, drawing its attention, he could run in the opposite direction (like Ben suggested, but didn't do so well in practice) and save his own ass.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: tonysee200x on April 29, 2008, 06:55:44 PM
Partisan political commentary aside, my thoughts on the connection between Ben's visit to the secret doorway and the Smoke Monster's attack:

- If the attacks by Smokie are based on ethical considerations (Eko failed to repent, X.X...Juliet was scanned and released...Locke was scanned and he beheld a wondrous vision), then maybe Ben used the magic door to dig up dirt on the operatives.

- If he went back and altered something about their past, it could've caused Smokie to course-correct...rubbing them out.


Remember Locke (and/or Rousseau?) told them to be still and it would pass when they encountered Smokie going to the Blackrock.

Juliet and Kate were still in the tree when Smokie stopped pursuing them and "took pictures" or scanned them.
Eko was still when Smokie stopped coming for him and began scanning him.

Maybe Smokie is only attracted to/can only follow motion.  If something is still, it can't "see" the target or calls off the attack.  Everyone that has been attacked severely has been moving, running through the jungle.

Not the pilot
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 29, 2008, 07:05:16 PM
I think Keamy just ran away....
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on April 30, 2008, 07:59:29 AM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
I believe it's posted in the rules of the site, that any preview broadcast on national TV is accepable to post on here...
i've had this arguement before and lost... :( *sigh* i agreed with Josh but the majority overruled...
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Creflo on April 30, 2008, 09:45:15 AM
Quote
Maybe Smokie is only attracted to/can only follow motion.

This is the best thought of the thread so far.  It almost makes too much sense to be accurate.

What still hasn't been addressed is what actually happened behind the secret door and what relation it has to Smokie's behavior.  We know Ben went in there right before the attack.  We know he came out dirty and/or banged up.  We know he basically acknowledged that he caused the attack by the way he responded to Locke's statement about lying about knowing about Smokie.  ("about" x3!)  My conclusions:

- I just don't think he goes behind the ancient door and accesses dials, levers, joysticks or whatever to pilot the thing.  He did something that caused Smokie to appear a few moments later.

- If he has direct control (which I doubt), it could possibly be to expand the area of Smokie's domain.  Rousseau referred to a certain part of The Island which was where the security system roamed...seems the blast door map makes a similar reference re: Cerberus. 

- I think his control is indirect.  Something like making them to have never existed in the current when, therefore they are eliminated by the security system.  This is not very likely, but think along those lines.  Maybe he simply communes with The Island and lays out a case against the soldiers and their negative impact.

- The way he comes out of the door all battered up reminds me of Kill Bill when Bill goes up to ask Pai Mei to train B. Kiddo.  He comes back all beaten up and states "he has agreed to train you".

Because Ben states in response to Locke's accusation re: lying about Smokie "why don't you ask Jacob", that makes me think that the explanation of the door->Smokie connection is not as simple as Ben going in there and flipping a switch.



I love this show.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 30, 2008, 05:26:03 PM

I love this show.

Me too.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 02, 2008, 02:44:18 PM
We know it did not get them all since Keamy (wrong spelling) is seen in the preview.

Dude, that was NOT cool! Many of us choose not to watch the previews because they're widely considered to be SPOILERS! Please don't write about future episodes. I did NOT want to know that.
Really? How can you not watch Previews?? It builds the suspence for the next week.

Joshzam lives in Spain and has to download the episodes to watch them as closely to the US airings as possible.  He doesn't always have access to the spoilers we see. (he's my bro - don't judge us by the others posts thoguh! hehe)
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: Bud on May 27, 2008, 12:10:16 PM
having seen a few more episodes since this one it would seem that smokie didnt kill any of the frieghter mercs. One was injured pretty badly but i think the writers needed to keep the mercs alive for the season finale. When the smokie train arrives at the barracks is one of the best scenes of season 4 and i like to watch it over and over.

Im loving this season - so many questions have been answered and yet more have arisen from those answers. I'm starting to worry what im gonna do for the next 8 months or so when this season ends.
Title: Re: The Smoke Monster And Ben (Possibly Stupid Question)
Post by: LostAndSeek on May 27, 2008, 03:15:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that one that was hurt the worst succumbed to his injuries. I think the Doc or the Captain mentioned that.

We're all worried about the next 7-8 months....