Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x09 => Topic started by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 12:11:26 AM

Title: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 12:11:26 AM
What is UP with that?!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: MichiganFan on April 25, 2008, 12:12:45 AM
"You changed the rules."

It sounds like they are on a scavenger hunt or something.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
Was it just me, or was Widmore not too upset about Penelope's impending murder?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: jugdish on April 25, 2008, 12:14:02 AM
You started the topic, what are your thoughts??

WE now know for sure that Ben and Widmore are opposed each other. We also know that Ben took the island from him and Widmore is pissed about that.

SO is Widmore The man behind Dharma??
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostinLock on April 25, 2008, 12:16:10 AM
We keep repeating this thread and as we had speculated in previous season four episode Ben and Widmore know each other.

Yes, perhaps a game, but it is not a game of fun.  Ben stole something from Widmore and now he is paying.
He changed the rules by killing his daughter.  This cat and mouse game is not a surprise for Ben and he had a good game plan for this entire attack, unfortunately he didn't anticipate that they would have his daughter.

Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: becksmex on April 25, 2008, 12:22:00 AM
It seems a little too much like to really rich kids playing a horribly sick kids' game at the expense of people's lives.

That being said, it promises to be a frickin' awesome ride, if that is the case, because anything goes!!!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostinLock on April 25, 2008, 12:23:33 AM
It seems a little too much like to really rich kids playing a horribly sick kids' game at the expense of people's lives.

That being said, it promises to be a frickin' awesome ride, if that is the case, because anything goes!!!

But it is more than a game it is really about the island. 
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: hyperform on April 25, 2008, 01:01:22 AM
what i wanna know is, why cant ben kill widmore?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostfan777 on April 25, 2008, 01:04:40 AM
what i wanna know is, why cant ben kill widmore?

That's the new mystery that they introduce whenever they grace us with answers to old questions!  All in all, I think they told us quite alot this evening.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 25, 2008, 01:33:09 AM
Maybe Ben & Widmore can't kill each other because they are each other's constant!  Somehow...
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Chops on April 25, 2008, 03:05:48 AM
Did you notice that during Ben and Charles scene their faces were half dark and half light.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: RM on April 25, 2008, 04:01:10 AM
As to why Ben "can't" kill Widmore, I thought of this two ways:

Ben seems quite obsessed with not actually literally committing murder (but rather arranging for someone else to do it for him).  That seems to be his dividing line between "the good people", "innocents" and everyone else:

He pointed out to Michael that killing Ana Lucia and Libby was Michael's on doing, not even the Others' own orders.  Ben was adamant about getting a list of "innocents" (who didn't deserve to die) on the boat from Michael.  Ben pinned Alex's death on Widmore, who quickly countered that Ben was responsible for her death (at least figuratively).

The public test of acceptance of Locke to the Others was whether he would kill someone -- when Locke wouldn't do it, Ben said, "I guess he's not who we thought he was", as if Locke had failed the test.  Then when he gave Locke the chance to kill his father, Locke wound up arranging for someone else, Sawyer, to do it (much like Ben would have).

Q1: Has Smokey only killed people who themselves have already committed murder?  (So as long as Ben hasn't, he's safe from Smokey; and he only released it on the Freighters after they had killed some people.)

--

The other way to look at it is that the Island "won't let" Widmore die the same way that it wouldn't let Michael die until it was through with him.  So Ben couldn't kill him even if he wanted to because the Island would interfere.

Jack fully intended to kill Locke, but did the Island interfere and arrange for the gun not to be loaded (because the Island wasn't through with Locke)?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: E-Rich on April 25, 2008, 08:08:04 AM
You started the topic, what are your thoughts??

WE now know for sure that Ben and Widmore are opposed each other. We also know that Ben took the island from him and Widmore is pissed about that.

SO is Widmore The man behind Dharma??

Well - we know Hanso, Dharma, and Widmore are all related and intertwined.  I just thought it was interesting that Ben said he couldn't kill Widmore.  Why in the world must he stay alive?  I like RM's idea of the Island having to do with it....but I'm wondering what Widmore is needed for....
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: mattac on April 25, 2008, 09:45:59 AM
As to why Ben "can't" kill Widmore, I thought of this two ways:

Ben seems quite obsessed with not actually literally committing murder (but rather arranging for someone else to do it for him).  That seems to be his dividing line between "the good people", "innocents" and everyone else:

Maybe, but when Ben confronted Widmore at the end of the episode, he accuses him of killing Alex as though Widmore was the one that actually pulled the trigger (even though we saw it was obviously Widmore's hired gun Keamy). So in that sense it didn't seem to matter to Ben that there was one level of separation between Widmore and Alex's death. It seems like from Ben's perspective--Widmore is responsible for Keamy, Keamy killed Alex, so Widmore is responsible for Alex's murder.


The other way to look at it is that the Island "won't let" Widmore die the same way that it wouldn't let Michael die until it was through with him.  So Ben couldn't kill him even if he wanted to because the Island would interfere.

This sounds right to me. There's a reason why TPTB showed us Michael's failed suicide attempts before the events of this episode--it establishes that the island has some sort of metaphysical force or will that cannot be disobeyed. So indeed maybe Ben literally cannot kill Widmore, a fact that both he and Widmore seemed to know.

It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostieloo on April 25, 2008, 09:52:58 AM
I just think it's sad that the last thing Alex heard was her adopted father saying that she was just a pawn, that he didn't care about her, or care if she got killed.  That sucks!!!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: zeekloveslost on April 25, 2008, 10:39:10 AM
Was it just me, or was Widmore not too upset about Penelope's impending murder?

I got the impression that even Charles Widmore did not know where Penny was, so that he wasn't too worried about Ben finding her first. Maybe I'm way off on that.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: opgelost on April 25, 2008, 11:11:15 AM
Quote
Did you notice that during Ben and Charles scene their faces were half dark and half light.

We only saw Ben's right half and Charles' left half. Like it were two halfs of one face.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Petey on April 25, 2008, 11:13:19 AM
what i wanna know is, why cant ben kill widmore?

Because the island won't let him die?? Like Michael...

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on April 25, 2008, 11:19:36 AM
I was wondering since Ben has Sayid doing all his killings for him- is he going to ask him to kill Penny and is that why they put Sayid and Desmond on the boat together? Because if he and Desmond became close that would make it harder to kill Penny.(if Desmond makes it off the island). Just a thought :)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: blueeyed2200 on April 25, 2008, 12:18:27 PM
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??  Maybe grew up on the island with Ben when they were little, was related or indirectly related to the people who started Dharma,  was taken off of the island for some reason before the purge, maybe lost family members, friends at the island during the purge, and has been trying all his life to get back there and find it.  Meanwhile, Ben, knowing the powers of the island and was the main executor of the purge, can get back and forth on and off the island and can keep in touch with Widmore whenever he wants to.  This infuriates Widmore and motivates him to do what he does.  But why??  Just kind of a short undetailed rough theory. 
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: mattac on April 25, 2008, 12:38:13 PM
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??

Even more confusing is that Widmore does (or did) know where the island is (or was). He sent the freighter there in 2001 and he knows the crew made contact with the island because he seemed to understand that Keamy had killed Alex. So when they meet in 2005, why can Ben say with so much confidence that Widmore will never find the island when he knows Widmore had the location of the island in 2001? Can the island change its location? Or does knowing the physical coordinates not necessarily help one "find" the island?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostandfree on April 25, 2008, 01:41:52 PM
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??

Even more confusing is that Widmore does (or did) know where the island is (or was). He sent the freighter there in 2001 and he knows the crew made contact with the island because he seemed to understand that Keamy had killed Alex. So when they meet in 2005, why can Ben say with so much confidence that Widmore will never find the island when he knows Widmore had the location of the island in 2001? Can the island change its location? Or does knowing the physical coordinates not necessarily help one "find" the island?

I think you mean 2004
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 03:22:47 PM
As to why Ben "can't" kill Widmore, I thought of this two ways:

Ben seems quite obsessed with not actually literally committing murder (but rather arranging for someone else to do it for him).  That seems to be his dividing line between "the good people", "innocents" and everyone else:

Maybe, but when Ben confronted Widmore at the end of the episode, he accuses him of killing Alex as though Widmore was the one that actually pulled the trigger (even though we saw it was obviously Widmore's hired gun Keamy). So in that sense it didn't seem to matter to Ben that there was one level of separation between Widmore and Alex's death. It seems like from Ben's perspective--Widmore is responsible for Keamy, Keamy killed Alex, so Widmore is responsible for Alex's murder.


The other way to look at it is that the Island "won't let" Widmore die the same way that it wouldn't let Michael die until it was through with him.  So Ben couldn't kill him even if he wanted to because the Island would interfere.

This sounds right to me. There's a reason why TPTB showed us Michael's failed suicide attempts before the events of this episode--it establishes that the island has some sort of metaphysical force or will that cannot be disobeyed. So indeed maybe Ben literally cannot kill Widmore, a fact that both he and Widmore seemed to know.

It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
Excellent questions here...

You started the topic, what are your thoughts??

WE now know for sure that Ben and Widmore are opposed each other. We also know that Ben took the island from him and Widmore is pissed about that.

SO is Widmore The man behind Dharma??
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)

I just think it's sad that the last thing Alex heard was her adopted father saying that she was just a pawn, that he didn't care about her, or care if she got killed.  That sucks!!!
This was definitely a bluff, but obviously it wouldn't work on a Uganda mercenary! If Ben thought that would stop Keamy from shooting, he isn't that intelligent. I think Ben was hoping to buy some time and reason things out.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 03:25:34 PM
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Shakey on April 25, 2008, 03:32:43 PM
It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
A thought that I can't seem to shake is this.. maybe Ben's been through this before.  Just as Desmond saved Charlie numerous times, perhaps Ben's experienced this before.  Maybe Alex wasn't killed the last time this thing played out (whether it be that Keamy didn't pull the trigger or something else happened that spared Alex's life).  Maybe the island somehow intervened the last time but this time it didn't.  Maybe the "rules" changed in a way that her life was no longer important to the island.

I don't know... like I said, it's just a thought that I can't shake.

Oh, and as for the relationship between Ben and Widmore.. it must be a very personal one because he knew that sleeping with a bottle of scotch was new.  I have to say, I don't know what my best friends have in their bedrooms and I certainly wouldn't be privy to that information as it pertains to an adversary.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 03:36:05 PM
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?
I don't think he's a descendant of Hanso, but it is possible. I think he ended up taking over the company from Alvar.

It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
A thought that I can't seem to shake is this.. maybe Ben's been through this before.  Just as Desmond saved Charlie numerous times, perhaps Ben's experienced this before.  Maybe Alex wasn't killed the last time this thing played out (whether it be that Keamy didn't pull the trigger or something else happened that spared Alex's life--maybe the island intervened).  Maybe the island somehow intervened the last time but this time it didn't.  Maybe the "rules" changed in a way that her life was no longer important to the island.

I don't know... like I said, it's just a thought that I can't shake.

Oh, and as for the relationship between Ben and Widmore.. it must be a very personal one because he knew that sleeping with a bottle of scotch was new.  I have to say, I don't know what my best friends have in their bedrooms and I certainly wouldn't be privy to that information as it pertains to an adversary.
I've briefly considered the Groundhog Day effect before... but I cannot agree with it yet.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostfan777 on April 25, 2008, 04:10:33 PM
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

I got the feeling Widmore was behind Dharma, but didn't he also say something like, "it was my island, it's always been my island..." or did I just imagine that?  If he did, it could certainly mean he goes back to a time before Dharma.  Perhaps as far back as Richard seems to go or further.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on April 25, 2008, 04:13:37 PM
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

I got the feeling Widmore was behind Dharma, but didn't he also say something like, "it was my island, it's always been my island..." or did I just imagine that?  If he did, it could certainly mean he goes back to a time before Dharma.  Perhaps as far back as Richard seems to go or further.
He did say something very similar to that. He also said Ben stole it.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Ladybug on April 25, 2008, 04:39:58 PM
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

I got the feeling Widmore was behind Dharma, but didn't he also say something like, "it was my island, it's always been my island..." or did I just imagine that?  If he did, it could certainly mean he goes back to a time before Dharma.  Perhaps as far back as Richard seems to go or further.
but maybe he meant it more like, "it was my island, it's always been my island [because my descendants were there way before anyone else]"
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Rebel 3:16 on April 25, 2008, 05:48:20 PM
Sorry to jump in on this topic a bit late but had a couple of things to get off my chest....

Someone earlier says Ben gets people to do his killings, Michael, Sayid etc so that Ben is 'one of the good guys'. Also pointed out was the idea that Smokey wont kill innocent people, just kills 'killers' - well Ben killed his own father, he put on his gas mask and pulled the canister of cyanide thus killing his pop (probably deserved it mind).

Also I would agree that Widmore has big dealings with Dharma and I would also assume that this is why Widmore feels the Island was his. After the purge Ben and his people 'hide' the Island - the biggest mystery for me now that we know there is a major amount of time travel (banding time if you prefer) is who the hell are Adam and Eve? And what happened to Bens childhood friend Annie?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Maxor127 on April 25, 2008, 05:59:31 PM
I'm starting to wonder if Penny is evil.  I'm not convinced that the Black Rock book led Widmore to the island.  I'm wondering Penny told her dad where the island was since it seems weird how she had these guys out in the middle of nowhere tracking electromagnetic disturbances or something and that that would lead her to Desmond.  And I'm still thinking Widmore meant something significant when he told Desmond that he wasn't the one who had a problem with Des.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostatsea on April 25, 2008, 07:50:24 PM
I have been saying it for years now that the island was Widmore's at one time and Ben took it from him, thats why Widmore wants it back so bad. He can not find it and he knows what it is capable of. I just wanted to go back on record as saying it was Widmore's island, maybe even paid for it's building on the island for Hanso/Dharma....

now I am happy agian..... ;)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: DoomSter on April 25, 2008, 10:55:27 PM
A Q: what did Widmore mean when telling Ben " I KNOW WHO U ARE BOY, I KNOW *WHAT* U ARE " ???

what is Ben? really....a demon?
just a thought.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: MangoBingo on April 25, 2008, 11:00:12 PM
I'm starting to wonder if Penny is evil.  I'm not convinced that the Black Rock book led Widmore to the island.  I'm wondering Penny told her dad where the island was since it seems weird how she had these guys out in the middle of nowhere tracking electromagnetic disturbances or something and that that would lead her to Desmond.  And I'm still thinking Widmore meant something significant when he told Desmond that he wasn't the one who had a problem with Des.

I have a theory about Charles and Penny's relationship - but it's a bit wacky: http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7564.0
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: jugdish on April 25, 2008, 11:17:45 PM
A Q: what did Widmore mean when telling Ben " I KNOW WHO U ARE BOY, I KNOW *WHAT* U ARE " ???

what is Ben? really....a demon?
just a thought.

I think he means the purge and killing that he is a bad bad man
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostinLock on April 25, 2008, 11:21:04 PM
I'm starting to wonder if Penny is evil.  I'm not convinced that the Black Rock book led Widmore to the island.  I'm wondering Penny told her dad where the island was since it seems weird how she had these guys out in the middle of nowhere tracking electromagnetic disturbances or something and that that would lead her to Desmond.  And I'm still thinking Widmore meant something significant when he told Desmond that he wasn't the one who had a problem with Des.
Watch this episode again, as Widmore told Benjamin that the island is his and will be again.  He also told Ben he would never find Penny...then he said the hunt is on for the both of us.
The Black rocks log was more than likely not what led him there, it was 1996 in Desmonds last time travel that he purchased the log.
A Q: what did Widmore mean when telling Ben " I KNOW WHO U ARE BOY, I KNOW *WHAT* U ARE " ???

what is Ben? really....a demon?
just a thought.

I believe he is refering to his background and what Ben did to get where he is today.  
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 25, 2008, 11:30:52 PM

Watch this episode again, as Widmore told Benjamin that the island is his and will be again.  He also told Ben he would never find Penny...then he said the hunt is on for the both of us.


So, you reckon Penny's on the Island?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Shoeless on April 26, 2008, 01:07:15 AM
I don't have the capacity/knowledge to:
Watch this episode again . . .
yet; but I thought Ben was shaking and/or fumbling with the key once inside the elevator prior to confronting Widmore - or did I misinterpret? Anyone? TIA  :)

*trudges along in 1 flipflop*  :(
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on April 26, 2008, 01:18:11 AM
I don't have the capacity/knowledge to:
Watch this episode again . . .
yet; but I thought Ben was shaking and/or fumbling with the key once inside the elevator prior to confronting Widmore - or did I misinterpret? Anyone? TIA  :)

*trudges along in 1 flipflop*  :(
Go to ABC.com and watch the episode free there.

I did think he took a little while to find the key, but he had a few keys there.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Shoeless on April 26, 2008, 01:41:13 AM
Thanks, JB - am planning on it; just as soon as my poor 2 li'l brain cells can get around what I'm still digesting. Such an awesome epi - ditto this site  :D
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: NorthShoreOGLost on April 26, 2008, 02:58:53 AM
My thoughts on some of the issues in this thread:

"I know what you are boy" was definitely a reference to Ben being a manipulating murderer.

Penny and Daddy poo are now arch rivals, especially after Penny reconnected with Desmond after he went missing.  She's in love with Desmond more than ever.  Plus she knows her daddy hates him so all the more reason for them to be at odds.  I think the tracking station in the snow was part of Penny's efforts to find Desmond before Widmore does b/c she knows what her daddy's all about.

To me, Widmore being Ben's constant is a no doubter (thus, the reference to not being able to kill him).  This could explain so much!

A buddy of mine really believes that everything will fall into place with the entire LOST story as we find out more and more about what happened in Ben's life between boyhood and the present.  So much missing - and I seriously doubt the missing time period was filled with lounging around on the couch at "bookclub"!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: WhatThe on April 26, 2008, 03:55:00 AM
I wonder what was causing Widmore to have nightmares to the degree he needed to keep scotch next to his bed?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: opgelost on April 26, 2008, 06:35:51 AM
Quote
Maybe Ben & Widmore can't kill each other because they are each other's constant!
Your constant is something you care a lot about.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Rebel 3:16 on April 26, 2008, 08:36:33 AM
I wonder what was causing Widmore to have nightmares to the degree he needed to keep scotch next to his bed?

I innitially thought this meant Widmore had been to the Island and was having nightmares much the same as Jack (S03 finale). Maybe Widmore's desire to return to the Island is deeper than just wanting to take it back but if he has been to the Island maybe it (or Jacob) is willing him to return, only Ben is stopping him. I cant think of any other reason why he would refer to having nightmares to his sworn enemy.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 26, 2008, 10:10:57 AM
We need a Widmore flashback!!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: karatemama on April 26, 2008, 11:46:48 AM
i posted this in one of the other threads from another episode...but I had a feeling that Ben and Charles knew each other and possibly had worked together in the past...they,up until this week's episode, knew what the other would do in certain situations...it was predictable to them...now that the "rules have changed" i think anything goes...this episode shows that Ben is as manipulative as ever! He was able to convince Sayid that Charles Widmore had his wife killed...COME ON!!! I don't buy that for a minute! Not with that famous smirking Ben face as he walked away from Sayid!

Charles is going to have to sept up his game now!!!

Should be interesting!!!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 26, 2008, 05:20:49 PM
i posted this in one of the other threads from another episode...but I had a feeling that Ben and Charles knew each other and possibly had worked together in the past...they,up until this week's episode, knew what the other would do in certain situations...it was predictable to them...

I think the consensus is that Widmore was in control of the island via Dharma up until the purge, when Ben took control. But recall that Ben at that time was just the son of a Work Man, and in Widmore's eyes, part of a lowly janitorial caste.  What's the likelihood that Ben had anything to do with bossman Widmore prior to the purge? Would Dharma have seen Ben's potential and given him a scholarship of sorts, sending him to study at the most prestigious Dharma labs around the world, perhaps to study at the feet of the great Charles Widmore himself?  Or would Ben have been relegated to a life of toil on the island, never fated to leave?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: deletia on April 26, 2008, 05:25:29 PM
Hi. First post here. Sorry if I'm missing something already posted.

Quick question: Wasn't there some Widmore paraphernalia--a pregnancy test maybe?--scavenged from the fuselage? I'd never thought much of it before, it just seemed like it was all part of the general conspiratorial backdrop. I thought maybe it came from someone associated with the Others. Now, though, it occurs to me that the Others were no longer Widmore affiliates, and if someone had Widmore stuff, that could indicate a spy in their midst. It could also indicate nothing but a coincidence.

So, who had the Widmore stuff, do we know?

Edited to add:
Quote
Would Dharma have seen Ben's potential and given him a scholarship of sorts, sending him to study at the most prestigious Dharma labs around the world, perhaps to study at the feet of the great Charles Widmore himself?

Intersting! Perhaps it was Ben's potential that got his parents a ticket to the island in the first place?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostinLock on April 26, 2008, 06:32:47 PM
Hi. First post here. Sorry if I'm missing something already posted.

Quick question: Wasn't there some Widmore paraphernalia--a pregnancy test maybe?--scavenged from the fuselage? I'd never thought much of it before, it just seemed like it was all part of the general conspiratorial backdrop. I thought maybe it came from someone associated with the Others. Now, though, it occurs to me that the Others were no longer Widmore affiliates, and if someone had Widmore stuff, that could indicate a spy in their midst. It could also indicate nothing but a coincidence.

So, who had the Widmore stuff, do we know?

Edited to add:
Quote
Would Dharma have seen Ben's potential and given him a scholarship of sorts, sending him to study at the most prestigious Dharma labs around the world, perhaps to study at the feet of the great Charles Widmore himself?

Intersting! Perhaps it was Ben's potential that got his parents a ticket to the island in the first place?

Welcome- No it was random items that had the Widmore branding on it.  We also saw in the episode where Desmond first time travels, the Widmore logo was on a building.  Again, one of the set ups to bring Widmore into the mix.

Interesting thought though if Ben gained control of the island when he removed the Dharma's, who was really in control of it previously. 

Hmmmmmm
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on April 26, 2008, 08:15:01 PM
Welcome, Deletia!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on April 28, 2008, 12:31:04 PM
Quote
Did you notice that during Ben and Charles scene their faces were half dark and half light.

We only saw Ben's right half and Charles' left half. Like it were two halfs of one face.

like a good twin and a bad twin...?

I like Lion of Areides idea that they are each others constant....
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on April 28, 2008, 12:42:17 PM
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??  Maybe grew up on the island with Ben when they were little, was related or indirectly related to the people who started Dharma,  was taken off of the island for some reason before the purge, maybe lost family members, friends at the island during the purge, and has been trying all his life to get back there and find it.  Meanwhile, Ben, knowing the powers of the island and was the main executor of the purge, can get back and forth on and off the island and can keep in touch with Widmore whenever he wants to.  This infuriates Widmore and motivates him to do what he does.  But why??  Just kind of a short undetailed rough theory. 

mebbe....

Mebbe Widmore has 'bought' everything Hanso because he is obsessed... like a Star Wars collector having every version of r2d2 models, every book, every picture, the scripts, the directors used coffee cup, the rights to the stageplay etc etc. And as such believes that because he owns it all, understands everything about Hanso and the island's mysticism he therefore has the right to dictate how it is run. One down side is... he aint got a clue where it is...

He needs Ben. Ben understands the power of the island but resents the corporation which is manipulating it, but he's seen the eye of the island and knows there is more to it than what Widmore is trying to buy. In reality, Widmore needs to be Bens bestest buddy in the whole wide world, it's gonna be a tough job to persuade him! and changing the rules like this will certainly be a major set back...
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 28, 2008, 01:18:01 PM
Interesting suggestion! I had a cousin who collected Star Wars junk like crazy. Then lost interest in that collection, and moved on to collect military paraphanelia.  Maybe Widmore, too, will just get bored with his Island collection and start collecting muscle cars. Like Jay Leno.

But it doesn't explain the touching bedroom scene where Widmore asserted Ben had taken the island from him, and Ben didn't deny it.  Sorta confirms that the Island was Widmore's, at a time when Ben wasn't critical to his control of the island.  Perhaps Miles is the replacement Widmore found, someone who can commune with the heart of the island but is on his payroll.

And I'm gonna have to disagree with my own theory.  While these two could be each other's constant, it's unlikely.  A more viable explanation is that both Ben and Widmore know what the timeline has in store, and that it can not tolerate a world without either of them.  On the other hand, how to explain the fact that Ben almost died from a tumor, and then from Jack's knife... But he didn't die.  Maybe that, too, was forseen.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Rebel 3:16 on April 28, 2008, 07:35:20 PM
The good twin - bad twin made me think - maybe Ben and Widmore are the Yin and Yang, both needed to complete the circle. This could have something to do with Ben stating that he couldnt kill Widmore? (would break the circle/ stability of the Island?)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 28, 2008, 09:22:18 PM
The good twin - bad twin made me think - maybe Ben and Widmore are the Yin and Yang, both needed to complete the circle.

I likey. Darlton don't seem big into far out Hindu mysticism, but do seem to incorporate such standard fare as Taoism's yin/yang.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostfan777 on April 29, 2008, 11:25:01 AM
I think the consensus is that Widmore was in control of the island via Dharma up until the purge, when Ben took control.

I agree with this, but maybe even a step further.  During their scene, Widmore says to Ben, "That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again."  Could he be insinuating that he goes back farther than Dharma?  Are we looking at a possible Richard-like history for Widmore?  This is gonna get interesting!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Lion of Atreides on April 29, 2008, 05:38:11 PM
Or, Widmore could be part of the Hanso clan.  Conversely, it'd be interesting if he's the descendant of the pirate who 'obtained' the log from the Black Rock, or even the pirate himself.  Maybe a deck hand on the Black Rock who got off the Island, but not before securing for himself serious longevity. 
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on April 30, 2008, 07:47:51 AM
A Q: what did Widmore mean when telling Ben " I KNOW WHO U ARE BOY, I KNOW *WHAT* U ARE " ???

what is Ben? really....a demon?
just a thought.

I think he means the purge and killing that he is a bad bad man

mebbe he's seen the Wizard of Oz and recognised the Wizard...
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostfan777 on April 30, 2008, 11:26:24 AM
A Q: what did Widmore mean when telling Ben " I KNOW WHO U ARE BOY, I KNOW *WHAT* U ARE " ???

what is Ben? really....a demon?
just a thought.

I think he means the purge and killing that he is a bad bad man


Is Widmore saying only that Ben is a bad man?  ("A very very bad man!"  *holding fist steady and only waving his pointer finger at him*, for the Seinfeld fans watching!).  I think the 'what you are' comment along with his claim that the island 'always was' his is hinting at an amazing future revelation (there I go, using the word 'revelation' again!.....wink, wink, nudge, nudge...)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: laklost on April 30, 2008, 11:30:24 AM
I love the idea that Widmore predates Dharma.  I don't mind the bigger powers like Charles and Ben battling it out - but I am really waiting for the rise of the Losties.  I'm tired of seeing them getting their butts kicked.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostinLock on April 30, 2008, 10:20:28 PM

Watch this episode again, as Widmore told Benjamin that the island is his and will be again.  He also told Ben he would never find Penny...then he said the hunt is on for the both of us.


So, you reckon Penny's on the Island?

I had actually considered that she is on the island.  But I posted on another thread that since Widmore has enough money she is at the Monastery thus bringing back Mrs. Hawkins and the Monk that was in the picture with her.  Remember that is where she met Desmond and somehow Mrs. Hawkins and the monk have something to do with what is going on.

As for Widmore being part of the island prior to Dharma is also an agreeable thought and something I have thought about.

Maybe they could teleport prior to Dharma and that is how Widmore became wealthy.  There are so many roads to walk down.

I also do not believe that Penny and her father are enemies.  How does he know if she made contact with him on Christmas Eve unless she told him and if she did then he has made arrangements to put her far away from the lurking danger of Benjamin.

Yet another chapter and tomorrow night we will be, at least on the East Coast, sititng and watch the show right now.

Well. we shall see.

Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Rebel 3:16 on May 01, 2008, 03:35:53 PM
Maybe Hawking has forseen that Penny is in danger from Ben and has informed Widmore.
After all, Widmore didnt seen surprised that Ben visited him, Hawking could have told him to expect a visit - im begining to think that Hawking has a HUGE part in all of this and how the Losties ended up on Flight 815.

Edited to add: I just re-watched the Ben/ Widmore scene, Widmore states 'I wondered when you would show up' suggesting to me that he was indeed expecting a visit.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: laklost on May 01, 2008, 03:52:20 PM
Expecting him in every way - that's what makes their rivalry so interesting.  They are each other's alter ego.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on May 01, 2008, 05:07:57 PM
Well, I'll keep an open mind, but so far we've seen Hawking, not just her pic, but her, in exactly one epi....
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: kricketskeeper on May 01, 2008, 06:56:52 PM
(Maybe Ben & Widmore can't kill each other because they are each other's constant!  Somehow...)


Brilliant answer!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on May 01, 2008, 09:01:28 PM
Welcome Kricket!!
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostGirlDeb on May 01, 2008, 09:35:35 PM
Hi guys

If this was already mentioed forgive me...
could Widmore be part of the Black Rock crew
or even an original hostile? (other) (which would explain that it was "his" island to begine with)

The only real mystery to me is why he can't find the island again.  I mean he has obviously just found it and sent the freighter people... does the island change locations?  Do the bearings leading on and off the island change?
Is it another time?  ARG!!!   :-\
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on May 01, 2008, 09:43:14 PM
I'm pretty sure it's not another time as that's been disproved again and again.

As for the rest, we (and you, I'm sure) are discussing all those issues, but I can sum up our conclusions in three little words.

WE DON'T KNOW.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostGirlDeb on May 01, 2008, 09:49:02 PM
LOL the story of our lives with this show....  
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: laklost on May 01, 2008, 10:02:00 PM
DON'T ADMIT IT!

(((((((((((((((((((((((((LostGirlDeb)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

(That was a bear hug.)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostGirlDeb on May 01, 2008, 10:09:27 PM
super huge VIBRATING bear hug back at you

 :-*{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{LAKLOST}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} :-*

I WANT ANSWERS DAMN IT

umm LOL like who doesn't right?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: laklost on May 01, 2008, 10:10:43 PM
Oh dear.  A vibrating hug.  I'm still shaking!!

You know what?  I have decided I don't want any answers from Lost.  I'm starting a revolution.  :D
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: JBRam on May 02, 2008, 12:35:49 AM
Oh dear.  A vibrating hug.  I'm still shaking!!

You know what?  I have decided I don't want any answers from Lost.  I'm starting a revolution.  :D
I'll join you.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 02, 2008, 01:07:26 PM
Many have pointed out the Widmore/Dharma connection and I'd like to propose a relationship that goes a step further.

I see the reltionship between Ben and Charles Widmore as similar to that of John Locke and Jack.  A man of faith vs a man of science.  When Charles was in control of the island via the Dharma initiative, it was to study the mysteries of the island through scientific research.  Then, after the purge, Ben and his crew wanted to study the island's spiritual side (via Jacob).  Their interpretations of the island's mysteries are their biggest difference.

Or am I crazy? :o)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: LostAndSeek on May 02, 2008, 02:28:08 PM
Not crazy, Zeek, there's a thread on this very subject around here somewhere.

Personally, I think Widmore is more about money/power than about science, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostfan777 on May 02, 2008, 03:10:36 PM
When Widmore stated that the island was 'always' his, I got chills.  I have always thought it will come down to science vs. faith, but now I think Widmore may even pre-date Dharma.  This may be a basic good vs. evil situation with science caught in the middle.  If my 'Revelation' ideas pan out (again, it's only a theory, I'm not claiming to have the answers!) Widmore may have been using man's science to solve the Valenzetti equation and prevent the end of days, thereby ensuring that the world continues in its' evil ways with him in control of the island.  Ben could be protecting the island from science in order to preserve the Valenzetti prediction, thereby enabling the prophesy of Revelation to 'purge' the world of all its' evil and be reborn into a reign of peace.  Some have said there is no way that Ben could be one of the good guys, but my theory is that he is, after all, only human and has failed in many ways to live up to Jacob's wishes, which could be why Jacob has reached out to Locke and now Hurley.  I'm picturing Jacob will be revealed when he is freed from his prison and his rightful paradise returned to him in the final episode of the series.  Paradise Found!

Or not........what on Craphole Island do I know?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: Sunflower on January 08, 2009, 10:04:25 PM
I just rewatched this episode, along with all the others ::), and really loved it (again!).  I love the Widmore/Ben relationship, the fact that imo the Island wont let them die and that Widmore not just predates dharma, but Ben as well (BOY!). 

I saw some mention in the thread about Widmore being one of the natives, and another saying he ran Dharma.  One way I could see either one working is: Ben told Hurley that he was ordered or doing someone's bidding when he killed all the dharma people...so Richard? Jacob? Was this incident what led Widmore to losing the island?  Did he lose in the capacity of CEO or was he banished, lost power, etc?

Someone humor me :)
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: jugdish on January 08, 2009, 10:23:20 PM
I would think the purge had something to do with losing control of the island. Maybe they moved the island after the purge and so now Widmore can not find it.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: hyperform on January 08, 2009, 10:28:22 PM
Maybe Widmore was one of the Dharma leaders that were lucky enough to get out just in time to not be killed in the purge.
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: jugdish on January 08, 2009, 10:30:29 PM
But he would still be able to find the island. Something happened that now Widmore can not find the island. So either it was moved or to find it you need to know the beacon code.

Ben did tell Locke that since the hatch blew up, they can not find their way back to the island. The sub would of been a one way trip
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on January 09, 2009, 07:01:10 AM
see now I'm confused... I thought the number punching HID the island... now you're saying it did the opposite?
Title: Re: Ben vs Widmore
Post by: lostfan777 on January 09, 2009, 09:36:48 AM
I just rewatched this episode, along with all the others ::), and really loved it (again!).  I love the Widmore/Ben relationship, the fact that imo the Island wont let them die and that Widmore not just predates dharma, but Ben as well (BOY!). 

I saw some mention in the thread about Widmore being one of the natives, and another saying he ran Dharma.  One way I could see either one working is: Ben told Hurley that he was ordered or doing someone's bidding when he killed all the dharma people...so Richard? Jacob? Was this incident what led Widmore to losing the island?  Did he lose in the capacity of CEO or was he banished, lost power, etc?

Someone humor me :)

I never thought of Widmore as having been one of the natives, but it's possible.  Could he have been in charge at the time Ben came to the island as a boy?  Maybe after the purge, he had to move the island so that Dharma couldn't send people to re-take it.  Ben said once he moved the island, he wouldn't be able to go back himself, so maybe Widmore had planned for someone to come get him after he moved the island, but then Ben decided to keep it hidden from him so that he could stay in charge instead.

Of course it's always possible that Widmore is just a powerful businessman looking to take control of the power of the island, but I feel they are definitely leaning toward him being more 'supernatural' somehow, maybe along the lines of Richard the ageless.