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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x06 => Topic started by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 06, 2008, 11:08:53 PM

Title: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 06, 2008, 11:08:53 PM
So ben can turn the smokey monster into anyone he wants? or am i just imagining that?

 ??? ???
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hyperform on March 06, 2008, 11:09:39 PM
it would appear that way
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Blackrock Bob on March 06, 2008, 11:09:50 PM
It seems that he was able to make smokey appear as Goodwin's wife and told Juliet what to do.
It was kind of lame.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: lostatsea on March 06, 2008, 11:10:17 PM
He can open his safe and cause the power station to blow up and kill everyone, so why not?
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 06, 2008, 11:11:37 PM
It seems that he was able to make smokey appear as Goodwin's wife and told Juliet what to do.
It was kind of lame.
I agree 100%.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hyperform on March 06, 2008, 11:12:46 PM
It seems that he was able to make smokey appear as Goodwin's wife and told Juliet what to do.
It was kind of lame.

so are we to assume that ben made walt appear to locke when he was in the pit
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: E.S.B. on March 06, 2008, 11:15:17 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 06, 2008, 11:15:41 PM
It seems that he was able to make smokey appear as Goodwin's wife and told Juliet what to do.
It was kind of lame.

so are we to assume that ben made walt appear to locke when he was in the pit
yes to get into "lockes" head
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 06, 2008, 11:17:01 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?

it *COULD* have been then if she was where the H E L L has she been all this time and how the H E L L could just deliver orders for ben... ben is locked up!

unless ben is going back and forth between time at his own pleasure and changing the future, present and past  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hyperform on March 06, 2008, 11:17:13 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?

well if it is goodwins wife she is a ninja
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Blackrock Bob on March 06, 2008, 11:17:41 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?
Rain and whispers, mysterious vanishing.... All signs of Smokey.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: E.S.B. on March 06, 2008, 11:19:23 PM

it *COULD* have been then if she was where the H E L L has she been all this time and how the H E L L could just deliver orders for ben... ben is locked up!

She's been at the Temple with the rest of the Others.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hyperform on March 06, 2008, 11:20:32 PM
so can we also assume that jacob is ben doing his trick
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 06, 2008, 11:21:31 PM
she even said she watched her husband and Juliet, she's just stealthy like that....
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Creflo on March 06, 2008, 11:21:48 PM
There's nothing to indicate Ben caused her to "appear" with the whispers.  He's still a prisoner at that point.

Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hyperform on March 06, 2008, 11:23:41 PM
There's nothing to indicate Ben caused her to "appear" with the whispers.  He's still a prisoner at that point.



except that juliet said that ben had got to her
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 06, 2008, 11:24:53 PM
There's nothing to indicate Ben caused her to "appear" with the whispers.  He's still a prisoner at that point.


NO

not if he's moving back and forth between time and "setting" up things the way he wants
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Point Place WI on March 06, 2008, 11:26:25 PM
I didn't see it as ben controlled smokie at all.  On a side note wasn't Goodwin fixing Juliet's plumbing in first episode season 3.  Anyone else find that funny. 
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 06, 2008, 11:27:17 PM
Ben stated he always has a plan....simple as that, he may not have had a code for there's a man in my closet with a gun to my daughters head, but he did prepare for the freighter people....
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 06, 2008, 11:27:40 PM
I didn't see it as ben controlled smokie at all.  On a side note wasn't Goodwin fixing Juliet's plumbing in first episode season 3.  Anyone else find that funny. 
ethan was fixing the plumbing
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: E.S.B. on March 06, 2008, 11:28:15 PM
Rain and whispers, mysterious vanishing.... All signs of Smokey.

I guess...  I'm not sure if I completely agree that it means it's Smokey.  If you read some of the whispers trancripts it sounds a lot like types of things The Others would be saying.  I mean, I think it's possible that it's tied to Smokey, but I'm not 100% sure.  I will concede though that whenever we do hear the whispers, strange stuff tends to happen.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hyperform on March 06, 2008, 11:29:20 PM
kinda like a david lynch film when the blue light flashes
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: jumbotron on March 06, 2008, 11:40:44 PM
Where did all this smokey talk come from?  I saw no smokey/ heard no smokey... just a bunch of BS shipper stuff and some BS questions that won't get answered.  ie.  where the hell did Harper come from?  Where did she go?  How did Ben tell her to go find Juliette? How did Ben know where the freighties were going?  How did Ben turn on the gas machines?  I'll put $ on never getting these answers.

Now lets get busy with the screen caps and prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: E.S.B. on March 06, 2008, 11:44:15 PM
Where did all this smokey talk come from?  I saw no smokey/ heard no smokey... just a bunch of BS shipper stuff and some BS questions that won't get answered.  ie.  where the hell did Harper come from?  Where did she go?  How did Ben tell her to go find Juliette? How did Ben know where the freighties were going?  How did Ben turn on the gas machines?  I'll put $ on never getting these answers.

Now lets get busy with the screen caps and prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The theory here is that Smokey is manifesting himself as Harper.  There has been much discussion that sometimes Smokey manifests himself (I can't believe I just called Smokey a "him") as dead people or people that aren't really there.  Generally when we here the whispers, weird stuff happens, so the theory is the whispers are tied to Smokey appearing and/or manifesting as someone/thing.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Point Place WI on March 06, 2008, 11:44:46 PM
I didn't see it as ben controlled smokie at all.  On a side note wasn't Goodwin fixing Juliet's plumbing in first episode season 3.  Anyone else find that funny. 
ethan was fixing the plumbing

Really!!! Juliet you dirty tramp Ethan too?  Just joking that's skanky Kate
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 06, 2008, 11:45:59 PM
Well if we never saw Ben and the tape recorder communicate with Juliet, we would be asking the same question of how did he communicate with her...so obviously he does have some hidden form of communicatin with the other "others"....more slight of hand then magic.

I'm not buying the smokey thing either...we have heard the whispers before and no people or smoke monster....

Where did all this smokey talk come from?  I saw no smokey/ heard no smokey... just a bunch of BS shipper stuff and some BS questions that won't get answered.  ie.  where the hell did Harper come from?  Where did she go?  How did Ben tell her to go find Juliette? How did Ben know where the freighties were going?  How did Ben turn on the gas machines?  I'll put $ on never getting these answers.

Now lets get busy with the screen caps and prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The theory here is that Smokey is manifesting himself as Harper.  There has been much discussion that sometimes Smokey manifests himself (I can't believe I just called Smokey a "him") as dead people or people that aren't really there.  Generally when we here the whispers, weird stuff happens, so the theory is the whispers are tied to Smokey appearing and/or manifesting as someone/thing.
Thats YOUR and a few others theories, dont say general theory as if everyone believes that...cuz we dont know at this point....
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: stinger456 on March 06, 2008, 11:46:56 PM
im thinkin its jacob and ben can communicate to jacob to manipulate people.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Blackrock Bob on March 06, 2008, 11:50:14 PM
Thats YOUR and a few others theories, dont say general theory as if everyone believes that...cuz we dont know at this point....
Are you saying that Smokey didn't appear as Christian, Yemmi, the horse, etc? I thought that was a generally accepted  theory too.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 06, 2008, 11:52:09 PM
Thats YOUR and a few others theories, dont say general theory as if everyone believes that...cuz we dont know at this point....
Are you saying that Smokey didn't appear as Christian, Yemmi, the horse, etc? I thought that was a generally accepted  theory too.
generally accepted by who? yes there are "some" people that think that, I dont for one...and others dont...but to say general as if its the consenus of everyone...thats all I'm saying...;D
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: E.S.B. on March 06, 2008, 11:53:41 PM
Well if we never saw Ben and the tape recorder communicate with Juliet, we would be asking the same question of how did he communicate with her...so obviously he does have some hidden form of communicatin with the other "others"....more slight of hand then magic.

I'm not buying the smokey thing either...we have heard the whispers before and no people or smoke monster....

Where did all this smokey talk come from?  I saw no smokey/ heard no smokey... just a bunch of BS shipper stuff and some BS questions that won't get answered.  ie.  where the hell did Harper come from?  Where did she go?  How did Ben tell her to go find Juliette? How did Ben know where the freighties were going?  How did Ben turn on the gas machines?  I'll put $ on never getting these answers.

Now lets get busy with the screen caps and prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The theory here is that Smokey is manifesting himself as Harper.  There has been much discussion that sometimes Smokey manifests himself (I can't believe I just called Smokey a "him") as dead people or people that aren't really there.  Generally when we here the whispers, weird stuff happens, so the theory is the whispers are tied to Smokey appearing and/or manifesting as someone/thing.
Thats YOUR and a few others theories, dont say general theory as if everyone believes that...cuz we dont know at this point....

Lou, you're right, I did not mean to imply it's the general theory accepted by everyone -- sorry about that.  In fact, I do not even buy into the theory at all!  It was just that it didn't seem like Jumbotron understood why some people were talking about Smokey, so I was trying to clarify/sum up the assumptions.  This is not my theory at all.

I agree with you, I am not convinced at all that it is Smokey manifesting - I prefer to believe it has something to do with the Others.  And excellent point about the tape recorder.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Blackrock Bob on March 06, 2008, 11:56:56 PM
Thats YOUR and a few others theories, dont say general theory as if everyone believes that...cuz we dont know at this point....
Are you saying that Smokey didn't appear as Christian, Yemmi, the horse, etc? I thought that was a generally accepted  theory too.
generally accepted by who? yes there are "some" people that think that, I dont for one...and others dont...but to say general as if its the consenus of everyone...thats all I'm saying...;D
I would really like to see you write up your theory then. I don't see how Christian has been waltzing around the island unless he is alive or he was smokey taking his form.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: versed4every1 on March 06, 2008, 11:57:46 PM
I am not sure that smokie was masquerading as Harper simply because of the whispers we heard or the fact that she disappeared like a puff of smoke.  Cindy disappeared from the rest of the tail section group the same way - there one second, gone the next.  I do believe that smokie has the ability to be seen in other forms, but I am not convinced that it was him this time.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: E.S.B. on March 06, 2008, 11:59:36 PM
Versed, I agree with you 100%.  I don't think the whispers imply that Smokey is manifesting as someone.  Yes, the whispers occur when weird stuff happens.  But the one that comes to mind is when young Ben sees Richard for the first time in "The Man Behind the Curtain."  I don't think that was Smokey.  But it was a "weird" thing since Richard appeared out of nowhere and he did not look any younger than he does now.

This is not to say that Smokey does not appear to people as Christian, Yemi, etc.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: joeboo on March 07, 2008, 12:04:11 AM
I really seemed like an actual person.  It wasn't just one person seeing someone they knew that was dead, both Juliet and Jack saw Harper.
And remember how stealthy the Others were in the first seasons.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 07, 2008, 12:05:27 AM
Thats YOUR and a few others theories, dont say general theory as if everyone believes that...cuz we dont know at this point....
Are you saying that Smokey didn't appear as Christian, Yemmi, the horse, etc? I thought that was a generally accepted  theory too.
generally accepted by who? yes there are "some" people that think that, I dont for one...and others dont...but to say general as if its the consenus of everyone...thats all I'm saying...;D
I would really like to see you write up your theory then. I don't see how Christian has been waltzing around the island unless he is alive or he was smokey taking his form.
You'd have to go back to so many posts from so may seasons past lol...MY theory is its not smokey, but what ever makes smokey, smokey, has something to do with the visions of Christian or Yemi...so yes you can say its caused by the same thing, but they arent the same thing...if that makes sense....one isnt a cause of the other...smokey doesnt change into them and vice versa, but what causes them to be(teleke-whogifuzz station?) creates them...

sorry ot get off topic...its so hard to stay focused without going back...

Harper is stealthy like ninja...or is that a pirate...
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: *MaZ* on March 07, 2008, 12:21:28 AM
I really seemed like an actual person.  It wasn't just one person seeing someone they knew that was dead, both Juliet and Jack saw Harper.
And remember how stealthy the Others were in the first seasons.
Yes, but remember that when Shannon saw Walt just before she got shot (while he was away in the raft), Sahyid saw him too. And Walt was FOR SURE not on the island.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: jugdish on March 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I agree with Versed. We have heard whispers often and not seen smokie at that time. Whispers does not mean Smokie.

I think we are missing the biggest point of that scene. It is that she appeared with the whispers. She is the therapist and has Juliets secrets. could she be the one who is behind the whispers??
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Maxor127 on March 07, 2008, 12:31:47 AM
I agree that the scene was odd and something seemed off about her, and that she seemed ghostish to me, but it's too big of a leap for me to say that it was Smokey or that Ben is controlling Smokey and all apparitions are created by Ben.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: norville on March 07, 2008, 02:42:03 AM
I also don't believe Smokey is tied to the whispers.  I think they're different things.

I think the whispers are somehow tied to the Others, and by that I mean the pre-Ben others (Richard Alpert and friends). Maybe going back to the ancient/historical secrets of the island, something along the timescale of the 4-toed statue.  Whispers just seem like an organic, in-your-head type of thing. Whatever they are, they seem tied to communicating, warning, deceiving, manipulating, etc.  The whispers also seem somehow associated (in my head) with Jacob. So when odd or unexpected folks materialize from out of your memories (particularly associated with memories of guilt and emotional pain), I get an in-your-head, whispery, magical box sort of vibe.

The smoke monster, on the other hand, has much more of a violent, mechanical aspect. I suppose it's likely both are somehow expressions of the same ruling will, but I don't think that's Ben's will.  Ben is a master manipulator and has harnessed many of the island's secrets and bent them to his own objectives, but I don't in any way believe he's calling all the shots. Perhaps Juliette, with her history of being manipulated especially harshly, was too quick to assume the message via Harper came from Ben.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: jumbotron on March 07, 2008, 02:50:16 AM
Even if Smokie was manifesting himself as Harper WHY would he tell Juliette to stop Dan and Charlotte?  If she had stopped them the gas would have been released and everyone would have died losties and others leaving the island free for the taking. 

Who/whatever controls smokie would have been handing over control to Widmore.

Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: TheGoodPeople on March 07, 2008, 03:02:27 AM
I dont think ben can control smokey. i think its jacobs doing.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hefalumps on March 07, 2008, 03:07:26 AM
I posted this in another thread, but it isn't it more reasonable that the island is manfiesting people's consciences as people that made a big impact in their lives (or whose lives they impacted)? That's why Jack is seeing his father feeling guilty about his death, Kate sees the horse that allowed her to escape, Eko sees his brother feeling guilty about his death. Juliet sees this woman who she wronged greatly telling her what she knows in her conscience - that Ben gave her orders, Ben saved her sister's life, and ultimately she should follow those orders.

I know we've seen these types of manifestations occasionally coinciding with Smokie, and while they might be related, I don't think they're the same. And I don't think Ben is controlling the manifestations or Smokie. As the poster above suggested, I think one or both might be related to Jacob, and Ben may have some influence over Jacob, but not control.

That's my take on it.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Lion of Atreides on March 07, 2008, 03:56:37 AM
I posted this in another thread, but it isn't it more reasonable that the island is manfiesting people's consciences as people that made a big impact in their lives (or whose lives they impacted)? That's why Jack is seeing his father feeling guilty about his death, Kate sees the horse that allowed her to escape, Eko sees his brother feeling guilty about his death. Juliet sees this woman who she wronged greatly telling her what she knows in her conscience - that Ben gave her orders, Ben saved her sister's life, and ultimately she should follow those orders.

I know we've seen these types of manifestations occasionally coinciding with Smokie, and while they might be related, I don't think they're the same. And I don't think Ben is controlling the manifestations or Smokie. As the poster above suggested, I think one or both might be related to Jacob, and Ben may have some influence over Jacob, but not control.

That's my take on it.

I like this approach, that like Daniel's explanation of Des's time jumps, it's about the projection of consciousness.  Was Walt really at the pit, telling John to get up? Was that Smokie? Or was it Walt using his abilities to project a message via his future self (somehow)?

Juliet in Not In Portland reveals her dedication to her sister. In The Other Woman, we see her in an opposite vein as an adulterer.  Such a discrepancy would be a perfect way in to manipulate Juliet.  Like Walt, perhaps Harper, too, can project herself to appear & converse with others.  Maybe the temple is where the Others can accomplish this.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Sunflower on March 07, 2008, 04:14:03 AM
What a great thread!!  The highlight of discussion from this episode.  My neice and I watch Lost together...she's an adult btw..the minute it started to rain I said "And heeeeeerrrreeee's Smokey!".  Which was very ammusing given the whispers.  If that were true, for me, Harper would have to be dead.  I don't have a fancy theory about Smokey, just that he, or she ::) :P , appears as dead people and is controlled by someone. 

I said that, after seeing Harper, Ben controls Smokey.  Smokey is a security system, Ben's security system.  Or at least that is what makes sense to me at this moment.  Ben is EXACTLY where he wants to be.  He knew that with his info on the man on the boat that Locke would let him go.  Ben is a professional, an expert...he, unlike Locke, knows exactly what he is doing and how to execute it.  I agree that Smokey thrives on ppls guilt, remorse and any bad feeling.  That is how it manipualates people...like Ben.  I do not think Jacob and Smokey are related..AT ALL.  That is my big statement I guess...everything else is guesswork.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: TheGoodPeople on March 07, 2008, 04:43:52 AM
i posted this somewhere esle but my fingers hurt.



(ctrl+v)

I just feel like the island acts consciously, Smokey is how the island communicates with most people but only the select few can actally see the islands true soul (Jacob) probably not by his choice. locke can see, it ben can see it, hurley can see it. everyone else just interacts with smokey in his various forms.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Sunflower on March 07, 2008, 04:52:01 AM
i posted this somewhere esle but my fingers hurt.



(ctrl+v)

I just feel like the island acts consciously, Smokey is how the island communicates with most people but only the select few can actally see the islands true soul (Jacob) probably not by his choice. locke can see, it ben can see it, hurley can see it. everyone else just interacts with smokey in his various forms.
LOL you posted that minutes ago in the poll :P  I'm glad you brought it up here tho because I didn't feel the poll was a place to discuss it.

It is my opinion that Hurley is the only one who can see it without manipulating it.  "Jacob" that is.  I don't think Ben or Locke possesses the natural ability.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LouE68 on March 07, 2008, 04:52:30 AM
i posted this somewhere esle but my fingers hurt.



(ctrl+v)

I just feel like the island acts consciously, Smokey is how the island communicates with most people but only the select few can actally see the islands true soul (Jacob) probably not by his choice. locke can see, it ben can see it, hurley can see it. everyone else just interacts with smokey in his various forms.
so where has the interaction been with everyone running around? lol
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: TheGoodPeople on March 07, 2008, 04:57:33 AM
i posted this somewhere else but my fingers hurt.



(ctrl+v)

I just feel like the island acts consciously, Smokey is how the island communicates with most people but only the select few can actally see the islands true soul (Jacob) probably not by his choice. locke can see, it ben can see it, hurley can see it. everyone else just interacts with smokey in his various forms.
LOL you posted that minutes ago in the poll :P  I'm glad you brought it up here tho because I didn't feel the poll was a place to discuss it.

It is my opinion that Hurley is the only one who can see it without manipulating it.  "Jacob" that is.  I don't think Ben or Locke possesses the natural ability.



Right but if this forum didn't have "off topic tangents" where would it be. i felt that it was out of place there but, hey, its 2 AM.


it fits better here.


I think Hurley has probably the best relationship with Jacob out of those three. i.e. not trying to be a leader, thus trying to control people on the island. Hurley is humble. he doesn't want his lottery fortune, he doesn't want a leadership role, or power. Jacob smiles upon him.

As did god upon Jacob.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: smokey_is_king on March 07, 2008, 07:46:45 AM
I also don't believe Smokey is tied to the whispers.  I think they're different things.

I think the whispers are somehow tied to the Others, and by that I mean the pre-Ben others (Richard Alpert and friends). Maybe going back to the ancient/historical secrets of the island, something along the timescale of the 4-toed statue.  Whispers just seem like an organic, in-your-head type of thing. Whatever they are, they seem tied to communicating, warning, deceiving, manipulating, etc.  The whispers also seem somehow associated (in my head) with Jacob. So when odd or unexpected folks materialize from out of your memories (particularly associated with memories of guilt and emotional pain), I get an in-your-head, whispery, magical box sort of vibe.

The smoke monster, on the other hand, has much more of a violent, mechanical aspect. I suppose it's likely both are somehow expressions of the same ruling will, but I don't think that's Ben's will.  Ben is a master manipulator and has harnessed many of the island's secrets and bent them to his own objectives, but I don't in any way believe he's calling all the shots. Perhaps Juliette, with her history of being manipulated especially harshly, was too quick to assume the message via Harper came from Ben.

I have to agree with norville on this one. Whatever Harper was (herself, smokey, or other) she made out Ben is telling her to kill C & D because she knows Juliet will listen due to her knowledge of how much Ben knows about the island. If Harper had said "Jacob wants you to..." then there's no reason why she would necessarily pursue the order. I don't think Ben has anything to do with the Harper meeting.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 07, 2008, 09:34:16 AM
smokey must be controlled by ben somehow

thats why he never answers questions about it... remember when locke asked ben about it??

ben claimed he had no idea!! lies!!!

if that was TRULY goodwins wife then why havnt we seen her before and how did she appear out of no where and where is she living and/or hiding???

 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: thebeann on March 07, 2008, 09:46:53 AM
Okay, theories on Smokey. I too 'felt' like Smokey made an appearance last night.

1. Ben IS Smokey. We have so far not seen him with smokey, right? So maybe Ben IS smokey.

2. Smokey is the sum total of all dead things on the island. It manifests as Christian, Yemi, and Harper (although we don't know that Harper is dead other than the fact that we have not seen her in any previous episodes yet - by the way, where is the sheriff woman?).

3. Ben controls Smokey, whatever smokey is. He made it manifest as Harper to do his bidding.

4. Or, for last night, Harper is still alive and really did make an appearance. There is the whole time travel/consciousness thing. Maybe there is some of that voodoo going on and that's how she disappeared. Or, she just ran really fast when Juliet and Jack were distracted.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: *MaZ* on March 07, 2008, 10:07:22 AM
Harper would not need to be dead for Smokey manifest itself as her - again, Walt is not dead and Smokey showed up as Walt to Shannon just before she got shot. And Sahyd saw it, too.
As for why Ben would want to stop the Faraday from going to the station: b/c he knew Faraday would disable it. Ben wasn't trying to prevent a gassing that would kill everyone in the island - he wanted to keep control of the station, and use it again if he had to.
Now, that's not an option anymore.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hefalumps on March 07, 2008, 11:36:35 AM
Interesting stuff... but I still think Walt's "projections" aren't necessarily related to the other projections because Walt is "special" as they've alluded to so many times. In other words, while the visions of Christian, Yemi, and Harper may be created somehow by the island, I don't think Walt's are.

I also don't think you have to be dead, and you don't have to have died on the island, but I also don't think Harper is necessarily still alive. Remember, Kate saw the horse, and there's no way that horse died on the island.

I really hope we get to re-visit the Others at their Temple at some point this season. I'm hoping the Temple holds some of these answers about Smokey, the whispers, and the apparitions.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Lost-N-Detroit on March 07, 2008, 11:51:54 AM
Please stop with saying that Harper was Smokie. Harper is Harper and alive on the island. We see this from the opening crash where Ben Tells Ethan and Goodwin to go and get lists of survivors. She has been with the OTHERS out at Temple and the "voices" are also not smokie. The voices have always seemed to be good and not harmful like smokie. The only tie in to the voices would be the rain since it seems to happen only then. Many of our Losties have heard the "voices" and are not dead.
Ben I am sure either has had a plan set in motion for some time now and it's finally working its way through phases. Ben I do think has no clue what smokie is.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Lostfanchrim on March 07, 2008, 12:04:22 PM
I posted this in another thread, but it isn't it more reasonable that the island is manfiesting people's consciences as people that made a big impact in their lives (or whose lives they impacted)? That's why Jack is seeing his father feeling guilty about his death, Kate sees the horse that allowed her to escape, Eko sees his brother feeling guilty about his death. Juliet sees this woman who she wronged greatly telling her what she knows in her conscience - that Ben gave her orders, Ben saved her sister's life, and ultimately she should follow those orders.

I know we've seen these types of manifestations occasionally coinciding with Smokie, and while they might be related, I don't think they're the same. And I don't think Ben is controlling the manifestations or Smokie. As the poster above suggested, I think one or both might be related to Jacob, and Ben may have some influence over Jacob, but not control.

That's my take on it.

I like this approach, that like Daniel's explanation of Des's time jumps, it's about the projection of consciousness.  Was Walt really at the pit, telling John to get up? Was that Smokie? Or was it Walt using his abilities to project a message via his future self (somehow)?

Juliet in Not In Portland reveals her dedication to her sister. In The Other Woman, we see her in an opposite vein as an adulterer.  Such a discrepancy would be a perfect way in to manipulate Juliet.  Like Walt, perhaps Harper, too, can project herself to appear & converse with others.  Maybe the temple is where the Others can accomplish this.

I like the astral projection theory. How else could Harper appear to Juliet? How could harper know the exact spot where Juliet would be standing in the jungle unless she was tailing her for a while? How could harper communicate with Ben if Ben is locked up? Harper DID appear as if she were really there, though. She was wet from the rain just as Jack and juliet were. Jack also saw and heard her and then she was gone.  If she were really physically there and not just a projection, how did she disappear so fast and so silently? However, if she were just a projection or a halluciantion why was she dripping wet from the rain and how did Jack see and hear her like Sayid did with Shannon and Walt? Maybe smokey really isn't a smoke monster but a manifestation of whatever Ben wants it to be or Jacob or whover controls it. That begs the question, how did it beat Eko to death? Is it a manifestation with physical properties? How is that possible?
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: cbw420 on March 07, 2008, 12:13:18 PM
ok a few things, i started another thread on the whispers, juggy merge if you see fit

but how in the hell does anyone think that Harper was/is Smokie or Smokie was/is harper???

there is no justification for this

i mentioned in this other thread that the whispers may be a transportation device of some sort, but thats far-fetched as well, i think last night clearly showed us that the whispers and people appearing/disappearing are in fact connected somehow

how is the question though, spirits?? perhaps but i don't know

please forgive me though, as i HAVE to rewatch tonight, the damn dog would not shut up last night lol
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: SQUIRT199 on March 07, 2008, 12:39:59 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?
Rain and whispers, mysterious vanishing.... All signs of Smokey.

I dont remeber whispers when smokey appears, just alot of clicking noises and trees bustling, I didnt hear any of that on last nights epi.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: thebeann on March 07, 2008, 12:40:52 PM
Please stop with saying that Harper was Smokie. Harper is Harper and alive on the island. We see this from the opening crash where Ben Tells Ethan and Goodwin to go and get lists of survivors. She has been with the OTHERS out at Temple and the "voices" are also not smokie. The voices have always seemed to be good and not harmful like smokie. The only tie in to the voices would be the rain since it seems to happen only then. Many of our Losties have heard the "voices" and are not dead.
Ben I am sure either has had a plan set in motion for some time now and it's finally working its way through phases. Ben I do think has no clue what smokie is.

Stop bringing reason and common sense into the threads. We will have none of that.  :)
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Walkabout on March 07, 2008, 12:46:36 PM
If Ben controls "smokie" then why the sonic fence? Maybe the voices are from those who need to be "unstuck" between past and future mind travel?
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Asmodean on March 07, 2008, 12:52:20 PM
Harper's sudden appearance reminded me of Richard suddenly appearing to young Ben.  Nothing except whispers, then BAM!
I think maybe she had another Other in the woods to make a noise for distraction for a quick exit.

I don't buy into the Ben/Smokey connection.  He'd never have to leave his house to get things done.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Lost_viewer on March 07, 2008, 12:59:59 PM
Okay, theories on Smokey. I too 'felt' like Smokey made an appearance last night.

1. Ben IS Smokey. We have so far not seen him with smokey, right? So maybe Ben IS smokey.

2. Smokey is the sum total of all dead things on the island. It manifests as Christian, Yemi, and Harper (although we don't know that Harper is dead other than the fact that we have not seen her in any previous episodes yet - by the way, where is the sheriff woman?).

3. Ben controls Smokey, whatever smokey is. He made it manifest as Harper to do his bidding.

4. Or, for last night, Harper is still alive and really did make an appearance. There is the whole time travel/consciousness thing. Maybe there is some of that voodoo going on and that's how she disappeared. Or, she just ran really fast when Juliet and Jack were distracted.


1.?
2. The sheriff woman name is Isabel and according to the creators she died at the end of season 3, they mentioned it at the last ComicCon...Which why would they introduce her and kill her off mysteriously, maybe she was a victim of the writers' strike...You see Harper in "The tale of two Cities" 3x1...or maybe they just spliced her into the scene but I believe Ben is able to communicate with the Others just like he did in season 2 when he was in the capsule.
3. & 4. The whole whispering, Harper illusion really confuses me, b/c smokey always appears when there are whispers and sometimes he doesn't appear..But what if the Others could teleport from one different parts of the island like..maybe the Temple allows them to teleport to anywhere on the island, and maybe they tested it with the polar bear in Tunisia..
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: goober on March 07, 2008, 02:00:55 PM
IMHO It was smokie.

Smokie takes on the form of someone pulled from the mind of the individual it is trying to communicate with:

Christian --> Jack
Walt --> Shannon and Locke
Yemmi --> Eko

When Eko first encountered the smoke monster he saw visions of people he had known in the smoke (see screencap thread from previos seasons, I believe it was season 2).

In order to believe that it was actually Harper you would have to subscribe to the following:
1. While Ben is locked away he somehow knows that Charlotte and Daniel have left the beach
2. Ben also has to know somehow that they are going to the Tempest
3. Ben also has to know what they are going to do while at the Tempest
4. Ben has to communicate with Harper (who is presumably at the Temple with the rest of the Others)
5. Harper has to coincidentally run across Juliet as she is chasing after Charlotte and Daniel, shortly after leaving the beach (30 minutes or so) and not too long after Charlotte and Daniel had left. So Ben had to be able to see into the future and send Harper out a day or two BEFORE they left the beach to go to the Tempest (or at least hours before they actually left the beach).

Occam's razor "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

Hence, Harper = Smokie
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: cbw420 on March 07, 2008, 02:07:13 PM
In order to believe that it was actually Harper you would have to subscribe to the following:
1. While Ben is locked away he somehow knows that Charlotte and Daniel have left the beach
2. Ben also has to know somehow that they are going to the Tempest
3. Ben also has to know what they are going to do while at the Tempest
4. Ben has to communicate with Harper (who is presumably at the Temple with the rest of the Others)
5. Harper has to coincidentally run across Juliet as she is chasing after Charlotte and Daniel, shortly after leaving the beach (30 minutes or so) and not too long after Charlotte and Daniel had left. So Ben had to be able to see into the future and send Harper out a day or two BEFORE they left the beach to go to the Tempest (or at least hours before they actually left the beach).



WALT / Freighter / Ben's Man / Charlotte has "work" to do


what i am getting at, is that ben's man on the boat could have communicated all this to ben

jedi mind tricks
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: thebeann on March 07, 2008, 02:14:50 PM
But if it WAS smokie...then is it really controlled by Ben? Or did it just know that Juliet would jump when Ben said "how high?"

Plus...Juliet, though surprised to see Harper, didn't seem SURPRISED to see her, as if she were dead. And if it IS smokey...why manifest as Harper? To appeal to some sense of guilt in Juliet? WHy not manifest as one of those people with whom Juliet said were tired of Ben? One of her allies, not the wife of her lover. Why not Alex or Karl or Richard?

I can't figure this one out. It's like the origins of the universe.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: fieldy32 on March 07, 2008, 02:32:39 PM
Now, I'm trying to recall... when has Smokey ever appeared during "whispers"? Now, please, don't jump in my crap if I'm wrong here, my brain isn't what it used to be, but I can only recall Smokey (and by Smokey, I mean the true from of Smokey, not these apparitions of other people that we're calling Smokey, this hasn't been confirmed) appearing to that strange mechanical sound, and to that sound only.  Now, like I said, my brain isn't what it used to be, so if the true Smoke monster has appeared during whispers, just let me know which episode it was and I'll happily retract my previous statement.  That is, of course, unless I watch the stated episode and don't find Smokey appearing to "whispers"... then I'm coming back with a vengeance!!!
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: cbw420 on March 07, 2008, 02:52:38 PM
Now, I'm trying to recall... when has Smokey ever appeared during "whispers"? Now, please, don't jump in my crap if I'm wrong here, my brain isn't what it used to be, but I can only recall Smokey (and by Smokey, I mean the true from of Smokey, not these apparitions of other people that we're calling Smokey, this hasn't been confirmed) appearing to that strange mechanical sound, and to that sound only.  Now, like I said, my brain isn't what it used to be, so if the true Smoke monster has appeared during whispers, just let me know which episode it was and I'll happily retract my previous statement.  That is, of course, unless I watch the stated episode and don't find Smokey appearing to "whispers"... then I'm coming back with a vengeance!!!

you're correct, no whispers for ACTUAL smokie

love the avatar btw
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hefalumps on March 07, 2008, 03:06:24 PM
I went back and looked at some of the first occurences of the whispers and this is what I found:

1) Rousseau mentions them to Sayid when she captures him - first real reference of there being Others. She also claimed voices told her to take Aaron from Claire - that they were coming for the child.
2) Sawyer hears them when he goes running off after the boar that he thinks is taunting him. He chases it into the jungle and loses its trail, and when he stops, he hears a bunch of whispering. And if I recall correctly, one of the whispers is audibly something to the effect of "It'll come back around"
3) Shannon of course hears the whispers before Walt appears. And then again she hears them and Ana Lucia and crew all hear them right before Shannon gets shot.
4) Charlie heard it - one of his many "hallucinations" in Season 2's Fire + Water when he kept trying to "save" Aaron
5) We hear the whispers just before the Others come and capture Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley (who Michael was delivering to them)

I'm sure I missed some, but those were a few occurences I could find of the whispering in the first two seasons. I haven't re-watched season three yet. Obviously it's not always linked to the mechanical sounds of Smokie/security system, although ih the epsiode where Eko died, the two did seem to be linked. But there's plenty of occurences (like these, Richard appearing to little Ben, Harper appearing to Juliet) where Smokie was not involved.

I definitely agree that the whispering is more related with the Others than it is the security system.

But I still don't know if it's a method of transportation, communication, or some supernatural way the island probes your conscience and tries to influence your actions or feelings.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Asmodean on March 07, 2008, 03:09:54 PM
Hasn't been updated in a long time but...
http://lostwhispering.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Lostfanchrim on March 07, 2008, 03:14:05 PM
I went back and looked at some of the first occurences of the whispers and this is what I found:

1) Rousseau mentions them to Sayid when she captures him - first real reference of there being Others. She also claimed voices told her to take Aaron from Claire - that they were coming for the child.
2) Sawyer hears them when he goes running off after the boar that he thinks is taunting him. He chases it into the jungle and loses its trail, and when he stops, he hears a bunch of whispering. And if I recall correctly, one of the whispers is audibly something to the effect of "It'll come back around"
3) Shannon of course hears the whispers before Walt appears. And then again she hears them and Ana Lucia and crew all hear them right before Shannon gets shot.
4) Charlie heard it - one of his many "hallucinations" in Season 2's Fire + Water when he kept trying to "save" Aaron
5) We hear the whispers just before the Others come and capture Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley (who Michael was delivering to them)

I'm sure I missed some, but those were a few occurences I could find of the whispering in the first two seasons. I haven't re-watched season three yet. Obviously it's not always linked to the mechanical sounds of Smokie/security system, although ih the epsiode where Eko died, the two did seem to be linked. But there's plenty of occurences (like these, Richard appearing to little Ben, Harper appearing to Juliet) where Smokie was not involved.

I definitely agree that the whispering is more related with the Others than it is the security system.

But I still don't know if it's a method of transportation, communication, or some supernatural way the island probes your conscience and tries to influence your actions or feelings.

The whispers seem to come from out of nowhere just like the people who suddenly appear then disappear. Could the "others" be able to open some kind of "portal" where they can come and go and reveal themselves whenever they need to? Maybe the Losties can only hear the "others" speaking when this portal in opening and closing to allow one of their people to transport themselves to wherever they need to be then jump back to where they were previously? OK I am completely confusing myself here. If this sounds like nonsense, please forgive my overzealous need to make sense of the whispers.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Writers_Strike on March 07, 2008, 03:30:36 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?

I was really expecting to see her die off in the episode as the big reveal to indicate smokie. But yeah I really think it's just as simple as it being her.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: cbw420 on March 07, 2008, 03:34:52 PM
Couldn't that have just been Goodwin's wife?

I was really expecting to see her die off in the episode as the big reveal to indicate smokie. But yeah I really think it's just as simple as it being her.

most of the things we see are simple like this, but since we're all so neurotic about this damn show, we dive in head first and go way too far lol
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Lost-N-Detroit on March 07, 2008, 07:32:35 PM
Ben doesn't have smokey on a leash and can call him to do whatever he wants Smokey to do.
Boulderdash I say!
Harper is Harper and not Smokey!
Yes I will agree that Smokey has turned into many images but he's not under Ben's control. I do beleive Ben when he told Locke for the umtenith time that he has no clue what Smokey is. If Ben knew or controlled Smokey he would send Smokey after the freighter crew and kill them instantly.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: hefalumps on March 07, 2008, 09:30:47 PM
I'm rewatching the episode where Eko gets offed - there were no whispers in this episode. Lots of Eko hallucinating, but some of that may have been attributable to all his injuries. But Yemi just appeared to Eko - no whispers. And then he heard the mechanical noises of the smoke monster when he got his butt whooped.

What I do find interesting is that Yemi's body was gone from the plane when he started seeing visions of him all over the island. Just like Christian's body was no longer in his coffin when Jack was seeing visions of him.

I'm fairly certain the whispers are an entirely different phenomenon from Cerebrus/Smokie/the security system. They may have some kind of relation, but one does not necessarily imply the other.

I think Jacob controls Smokie and that the Others are associated with the whispers somehow. That's my theory at the moment.

So even if Harper wasn't really there, I don't think she was Smokie. I think she was something else. And I don't think Ben was controlling it.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: cbw420 on March 07, 2008, 11:50:47 PM
Ben doesn't have smokey on a leash and can call him to do whatever he wants Smokey to do.
Boulderdash I say!
Harper is Harper and not Smokey!
Yes I will agree that Smokey has turned into many images but he's not under Ben's control. I do beleive Ben when he told Locke for the umtenith time that he has no clue what Smokey is. If Ben knew or controlled Smokey he would send Smokey after the freighter crew and kill them instantly.


juliet also said to kate, "we dont know what it is" i think she was truthful there, but the key to that is the "we"

someone go back and check it, i'm certain of it
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LostAndSeek on March 08, 2008, 12:05:13 AM
I thought it was Smokie manifesting at first, but if Smokie wanted Dan and Charlotte stopped it could just go whup 'em up against a tree somewhere and that'd be that.

Ergo either not Smokie or Dan & Charlotte just happen to be headed for a section of the Island where Smokie can't go.

If it's human Harper that we're seeing then she has help of some sort that lets her appear and disappear at will. Is she turning invisible? Time traveling? Teleporting? I dunno.

But if Ben had control over any of the above he wouldn't have lost nearly half his people by death or defection over the last few months. So no, Ben's not in control of any such power. He may have some way of communicating with the outside world though. That cell's in the basement of his own house, isn't it? Even if it's not, it's his home turf and he always has a plan.

Given the Others don't control Smokie or the other signs of power that we're seeing, there's got to be another group, doesn't there? Whether human or disembodied consciousnesses of some kind I've no idea, but there's some other semiorganized group.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: nomteticus on March 08, 2008, 04:31:57 PM
As some other people said before - it's Jacob, not Smokie.

Jacob is trying to protect the island, therefore he doesn't want the boat people to disable its defense system. So he tries to manipulate someone (Juliet) who has the power (gun) to stop them. He appears in the form of Harper (to whom Juliet feels in debt) and pretends to be sent by Ben (who Juliet sometimes can't help obeying) in order to stop the people from poisoning the island (another lie of Jacob).

I think the Others are just Jacob's servants. Remember Jacob's list? He wanted those children so he sent the others to get them. Hence the whispers appearing on that occasion. The whispers appear again here. We know they're connected to the others, and since they serve Jacob, they could come from Jacob.

I don't think it was really Harper because she could have easily gone and shot them herself. Furthemore, I don't see how she could communicate with Ben. I am convinced Ben had nothing to do with harper appearing. He's locked up in his bloody cell (up until now). Jacob simply used the image of Harper and the hint of Ben in order to manipulate Juliet.



Crackpot theory: what if the Tempest is actually controlling Smokie ? And by disabling it, Smokie is no more. In this case, maybe Jacob can't control Smokie, yet Smokie protects Jacob (and the island).
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: laklost on March 08, 2008, 04:40:31 PM
As some other people said before - it's Jacob, not Smokie.

Jacob is trying to protect the island, therefore he doesn't want the boat people to disable its defense system. So he tries to manipulate someone (Juliet) who has the power (gun) to stop them. He appears in the form of Harper (to whom Juliet feels in debt) and pretends to be sent by Ben (who Juliet sometimes can't help obeying) in order to stop the people from poisoning the island (another lie of Jacob).

I think the Others are just Jacob's servants. Remember Jacob's list? He wanted those children so he sent the others to get them. Hence the whispers appearing on that occasion. The whispers appear again here. We know they're connected to the others, and since they serve Jacob, they could come from Jacob.

I don't think it was really Harper because she could have easily gone and shot them herself. Furthemore, I don't see how she could communicate with Ben. I am convinced Ben had nothing to do with harper appearing. He's locked up in his bloody cell (up until now). Jacob simply used the image of Harper and the hint of Ben in order to manipulate Juliet.



Crackpot theory: what if the Tempest is actually controlling Smokie ? And by disabling it, Smokie is no more. In this case, maybe Jacob can't control Smokie, yet Smokie protects Jacob (and the island).

Welcome, Nomteticus!

One little hole in your crackpot theory is that if that was the end of Smokey and they didn't SHOW it - there will be a riot!  :D
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Hurley rocks dudes on March 08, 2008, 07:39:51 PM
i was just glad we heard the whispers again. we haven't heard them in a while
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Shoeless on March 08, 2008, 08:09:55 PM
I think Jacob controls Smokie . . .
. . . Smokie . . . just happen(s) to be headed for a section of the Island where Smokie can't go
Crackpot theory: . . . maybe Jacob can't control Smokie, yet Smokie protects Jacob (and the island).

*takes the risk of getting bashed 'cos imma noob*
Jacob's cabin is surrounded by ash, no?? 
Smokey + ashes = proof of Crackpots   :-\

*screams, pulls hair & runs off into jungle*    :o
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Hurley rocks dudes on March 08, 2008, 09:09:59 PM
I think Jacob controls Smokie . . .
. . . Smokie . . . just happen(s) to be headed for a section of the Island where Smokie can't go
Crackpot theory: . . . maybe Jacob can't control Smokie, yet Smokie protects Jacob (and the island).

*takes the risk of getting bashed 'cos imma noob*
Jacob's cabin is surrounded by ash, no?? 
Smokey + ashes = proof of Crackpots   :-\

*screams, pulls hair & runs off into jungle*    :o
nice one shoeless...

smokie strikes again!!! i wonder how smart it really is?
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Shoeless on March 08, 2008, 09:55:42 PM
Thanks Dude  ;D
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Asmodean on March 08, 2008, 10:12:48 PM
Did they forget to tell Smokey the writer's strike was over? 
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 09, 2008, 01:54:29 AM
I'm rewatching the episode where Eko gets offed - there were no whispers in this episode. Lots of Eko hallucinating, but some of that may have been attributable to all his injuries. But Yemi just appeared to Eko - no whispers. And then he heard the mechanical noises of the smoke monster when he got his butt whooped.

What I do find interesting is that Yemi's body was gone from the plane when he started seeing visions of him all over the island. Just like Christian's body was no longer in his coffin when Jack was seeing visions of him.

I'm fairly certain the whispers are an entirely different phenomenon from Cerebrus/Smokie/the security system. They may have some kind of relation, but one does not necessarily imply the other.

I think Jacob controls Smokie and that the Others are associated with the whispers somehow. That's my theory at the moment.

So even if Harper wasn't really there, I don't think she was Smokie. I think she was something else. And I don't think Ben was controlling it.
Best post of this thread, IMO.  I agree with ESB, Lou, & others.....Harper was not Smokey.  I think that too many on this site are overgeneralizing the mysterious happenings of the Island in attributing them to Smokey!

Key piece of info to keep in mind as well..."Only fools are enslaved in time & space."  Whether Harper is alive like Walt (I assume) or dead like Charlie, I think it really was her.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 09, 2008, 09:50:26 AM
As some other people said before - it's Jacob, not Smokie.

Jacob is trying to protect the island, therefore he doesn't want the boat people to disable its defense system. So he tries to manipulate someone (Juliet) who has the power (gun) to stop them. He appears in the form of Harper (to whom Juliet feels in debt) and pretends to be sent by Ben (who Juliet sometimes can't help obeying) in order to stop the people from poisoning the island (another lie of Jacob).

I think the Others are just Jacob's servants. Remember Jacob's list? He wanted those children so he sent the others to get them. Hence the whispers appearing on that occasion. The whispers appear again here. We know they're connected to the others, and since they serve Jacob, they could come from Jacob.

I don't think it was really Harper because she could have easily gone and shot them herself. Furthemore, I don't see how she could communicate with Ben. I am convinced Ben had nothing to do with harper appearing. He's locked up in his bloody cell (up until now). Jacob simply used the image of Harper and the hint of Ben in order to manipulate Juliet.



Crackpot theory: what if the Tempest is actually controlling Smokie ? And by disabling it, Smokie is no more. In this case, maybe Jacob can't control Smokie, yet Smokie protects Jacob (and the island).


Interesting proposition ya got there, I do like it, tho' agree with LakLost above, is not the end of Smokie now...ensuing riots
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: cbw420 on March 09, 2008, 01:45:04 PM




my girl PL  brings up good stuff, she points out that Harper was actually Harper, which i am kinda torn on right now, i think it was actually harper, but jacob was controlling (or allowing) her to come and go like she did, evry other time we've heard the whispers and people appear, its actually been those people, (when the kids were taken, etc)

i dont know, i have to rewatch a few past "whisper" episodes and this one again too
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Buddhism on March 09, 2008, 02:13:40 PM
Rofl, Of course it was Harper! Apart from the whispers there was nothing else to suggest that "Jacob", "Smokie" or anyone other than Ben sent her!
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 09, 2008, 02:41:34 PM




my girl PL  brings up good stuff, she points out that Harper was actually Harper, which i am kinda torn on right now, i think it was actually harper, but jacob was controlling (or allowing) her to come and go like she did, evry other time we've heard the whispers and people appear, its actually been those people, (when the kids were taken, etc)

i dont know, i have to rewatch a few past "whisper" episodes and this one again too

interesting hypothesis, please inform us on your findings...
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: razzle-dazzle on March 09, 2008, 04:01:19 PM
Maybe Harper was projecting herself like Walt might have done.
Mrs. Klugh asks Michael if Walt has ever been somewhere he should have been. I just rewatched 3 minutes and I think that
some people on the island can project themselves. Maybe Walt projected himself to Shannon and to Locke, and maybe the therapist did the same thing to Juliette.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 09, 2008, 07:14:39 PM
Maybe Harper was projecting herself like Walt might have done.
Mrs. Klugh asks Michael if Walt has ever been somewhere he should have been. I just rewatched 3 minutes and I think that
some people on the island can project themselves. Maybe Walt projected himself to Shannon and to Locke, and maybe the therapist did the same thing to Juliette.

That's my whole point in mentioning "Only fools are enslaved in time & space."



btw- If she is dead, it has to have happened within the last month and a half, too.  I guess it's possible since they killed Isabel off quietly, but doubtful till we have any evidence.   

Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LostAndSeek on March 09, 2008, 07:45:17 PM
Walt is special so I could buy some sort of projection in his case, but we've seen no evidence that any of the Others have this kind of ability. At least not yet.

I'm pretty sure Tom or Ryan mentioned Isabel as a casualty when talking to Ben in the S3 Finale.

I agree that if Harper is dead it has to be recent. She was certainly alive when the plane crashed and apparently alive when Ben and Juliet went to visit Goodwin's remains.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on March 10, 2008, 09:33:51 AM
can I thow my 2 pennies in the pot?

Remember way back when... Alpert appeared to Little Boy Ben and told him the back story about there being people on the Island before Dharma arrived, and yet Dharma and the originals got on together... Surely Richard was not the only Island Original... (And there's the Black Rock crew too don't forget who may actually be one and the same as the Natives if the life extention projects turn out to be real)

What if Freaky Eyebrow woman (Harper) is an Original Islander like Alpert (similar over-enhanced facial features ;) ) She too appears where and when she chooses because they are natives.... It's THEIR island...

I think the Smokie thing is either an island original too (sentient yes, cognitive yes, human form no) or perhaps even the result of some Dharma experiment gone wrong similar to the monster on Forbidden Planet. I don't think it is controlled by anyone in particular... perhaps 'tamed' by the Natives i.e Smokie.. go fetch...

I bet Ben wishes he was in control of it - that would give him power.

Here endeth todays ramblings....
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Asmodean on March 10, 2008, 09:50:44 AM
That's a great theory.  It all makes since.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 10, 2008, 12:18:24 PM
Am going to mark this one, do not remember the Alpert visit, will go back and watch, but it passes Occam's Test...
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: T Mack on March 10, 2008, 06:19:48 PM
Jacob summoned the smoke monster in the form of creepy mole woman.  End of discussion.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: laklost on March 10, 2008, 10:04:50 PM
Jacob summoned the smoke monster in the form of creepy mole woman.  End of discussion.

So we should all stop talking?  ??? :D
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Asmodean on March 10, 2008, 10:15:44 PM
I'm skeered.  Hold me?
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 10, 2008, 10:50:39 PM
buuuuuuut, did he/she/it manifest itself as the mole, or was that just a byproduct of the manifestation process...could her uncanny resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and priscilla presley have to do with his smokiness or is that yet again a byproduct...wheeeeew (swipe of hand across forehead) there is SOOOOOOO much more to discuss...... ;)
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 10, 2008, 11:48:11 PM
 :o  the mole! it's spreading into other threads!  Save yourselves! :D
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Walkabout on March 11, 2008, 08:38:10 AM
Jacob summoned the smoke monster in the form of creepy mole woman.  End of discussion.
I'm skeered.  Hold me?
buuuuuuut, did he/she/it manifest itself as the mole, or was that just a byproduct of the manifestation process...could her uncanny resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and priscilla presley have to do with his smokiness or is that yet again a byproduct...wheeeeew (swipe of hand across forehead) there is SOOOOOOO much more to discuss...... ;)
:o  the mole! it's spreading into other threads!  Save yourselves! :D
Deleted scene from "The Other Woman" through a contact who knows somebody who knows nobody:

Camera pans to a sleeping Harper then pulls back to reveal Ben standing over her.

Ben               : You summoned me. I am here.
Unknown Voice: Help me.
Ben               : Jacob, is that you?
Unknown Voice: Help me leave this place.
Ben               : I cannot.
Unknown Voice: Help me.
Ben               : We only have a fertility Dr. and a Neurosurgeon.
Unknown Voice: Disarm "the fence" and bring him to me.
Ben               : You know it is not of my control.
Unknown Voive: Her resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and Priscilla Presley is unerving.
                      I must leave this place. He can move me.
Ben               : Where mole where?
Unknown Voice: Onto Juliet.
Ben Angrily     : NEVER, JULIET IS MINE!

 ;) ;D :o
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 11, 2008, 10:16:24 AM
muchas gracias!!!  you said it perfectly in the other thread:

"...but damn sometimes we just gotta have fun and not destroy the entertainment value of our beloved TV show through overanalyzation."

as the Monty's say....

"And now for something completely different."


Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: HugeJohnLockeFan on March 11, 2008, 12:42:48 PM
Wow this thread has really progressed since I last read it.

Good work guys!  8)
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Asmodean on March 11, 2008, 12:48:34 PM
The podcast pretty much settled the question.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 11, 2008, 06:49:58 PM
Jacob summoned the smoke monster in the form of creepy mole woman.  End of discussion.
I'm skeered.  Hold me?
buuuuuuut, did he/she/it manifest itself as the mole, or was that just a byproduct of the manifestation process...could her uncanny resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and priscilla presley have to do with his smokiness or is that yet again a byproduct...wheeeeew (swipe of hand across forehead) there is SOOOOOOO much more to discuss...... ;)
:o  the mole! it's spreading into other threads!  Save yourselves! :D
Deleted scene from "The Other Woman" through a contact who knows somebody who knows nobody:

Camera pans to a sleeping Harper then pulls back to reveal Ben standing over her.

Ben               : You summoned me. I am here.
Unknown Voice: Help me.
Ben               : Jacob, is that you?
Unknown Voice: Help me leave this place.
Ben               : I cannot.
Unknown Voice: Help me.
Ben               : We only have a fertility Dr. and a Neurosurgeon.
Unknown Voice: Disarm "the fence" and bring him to me.
Ben               : You know it is not of my control.
Unknown Voive: Her resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and Priscilla Presley is unerving.
                      I must leave this place. He can move me.
Ben               : Where mole where?
Unknown Voice: Onto Juliet.
Ben Angrily     : NEVER, JULIET IS MINE!

 ;) ;D :o
ROFL  You rock.   ;D

The podcast pretty much settled the question.
ARGHHH!!!  I can't listen right now!  What did it say??  PM me or put it in spoilers.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: LostAndSeek on March 11, 2008, 07:03:55 PM
I just listened. They implied very strongly that Harper is alive and we'll see her again this season.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: laklost on March 11, 2008, 10:31:30 PM
can I thow my 2 pennies in the pot?

Remember way back when... Alpert appeared to Little Boy Ben and told him the back story about there being people on the Island before Dharma arrived, and yet Dharma and the originals got on together... Surely Richard was not the only Island Original... (And there's the Black Rock crew too don't forget who may actually be one and the same as the Natives if the life extention projects turn out to be real)

What if Freaky Eyebrow woman (Harper) is an Original Islander like Alpert (similar over-enhanced facial features ;) ) She too appears where and when she chooses because they are natives.... It's THEIR island...
I think the Smokie thing is either an island original too (sentient yes, cognitive yes, human form no) or perhaps even the result of some Dharma experiment gone wrong similar to the monster on Forbidden Planet. I don't think it is controlled by anyone in particular... perhaps 'tamed' by the Natives i.e Smokie.. go fetch...

I bet Ben wishes he was in control of it - that would give him power.

Here endeth todays ramblings....

Dizzy, you's so smart!  I love that idea.
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 11, 2008, 11:48:42 PM
Jacob summoned the smoke monster in the form of creepy mole woman.  End of discussion.
I'm skeered.  Hold me?
buuuuuuut, did he/she/it manifest itself as the mole, or was that just a byproduct of the manifestation process...could her uncanny resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and priscilla presley have to do with his smokiness or is that yet again a byproduct...wheeeeew (swipe of hand across forehead) there is SOOOOOOO much more to discuss...... ;)
:o  the mole! it's spreading into other threads!  Save yourselves! :D
Deleted scene from "The Other Woman" through a contact who knows somebody who knows nobody:

Camera pans to a sleeping Harper then pulls back to reveal Ben standing over her.

Ben               : You summoned me. I am here.
Unknown Voice: Help me.
Ben               : Jacob, is that you?
Unknown Voice: Help me leave this place.
Ben               : I cannot.
Unknown Voice: Help me.
Ben               : We only have a fertility Dr. and a Neurosurgeon.
Unknown Voice: Disarm "the fence" and bring him to me.
Ben               : You know it is not of my control.
Unknown Voive: Her resemblance to Jocelyn Wildenstein and Priscilla Presley is unerving.
                      I must leave this place. He can move me.
Ben               : Where mole where?
Unknown Voice: Onto Juliet.
Ben Angrily     : NEVER, JULIET IS MINE!

 ;) ;D :o
ROFL  You rock.   ;D

The podcast pretty much settled the question.
ARGHHH!!!  I can't listen right now!  What did it say??  PM me or put it in spoilers.


lostpedia has a run down of the 'cast....no trans yet...
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: Staggerlee on March 12, 2008, 12:12:12 AM
can I thow my 2 pennies in the pot?

Remember way back when... Alpert appeared to Little Boy Ben and told him the back story about there being people on the Island before Dharma arrived, and yet Dharma and the originals got on together... Surely Richard was not the only Island Original... (And there's the Black Rock crew too don't forget who may actually be one and the same as the Natives if the life extention projects turn out to be real)

What if Freaky Eyebrow woman (Harper) is an Original Islander like Alpert (similar over-enhanced facial features ;) ) She too appears where and when she chooses because they are natives.... It's THEIR island...
I think the Smokie thing is either an island original too (sentient yes, cognitive yes, human form no) or perhaps even the result of some Dharma experiment gone wrong similar to the monster on Forbidden Planet. I don't think it is controlled by anyone in particular... perhaps 'tamed' by the Natives i.e Smokie.. go fetch...

I bet Ben wishes he was in control of it - that would give him power.

Here endeth todays ramblings....

Dizzy, you's so smart!  I love that idea.


I too like that idea, and the p'cast said we would see more of her...
but then what of the diploma/cert.s on her wall....did she "earn" them there? Are they actually hers? Just for show? A minor thing, but nonetheless....
Title: Re: So Mister Benjamin Linus..... and his buddy Smokey
Post by: laklost on March 12, 2008, 02:16:48 PM
can I thow my 2 pennies in the pot?

Remember way back when... Alpert appeared to Little Boy Ben and told him the back story about there being people on the Island before Dharma arrived, and yet Dharma and the originals got on together... Surely Richard was not the only Island Original... (And there's the Black Rock crew too don't forget who may actually be one and the same as the Natives if the life extention projects turn out to be real)

What if Freaky Eyebrow woman (Harper) is an Original Islander like Alpert (similar over-enhanced facial features ;) ) She too appears where and when she chooses because they are natives.... It's THEIR island...
I think the Smokie thing is either an island original too (sentient yes, cognitive yes, human form no) or perhaps even the result of some Dharma experiment gone wrong similar to the monster on Forbidden Planet. I don't think it is controlled by anyone in particular... perhaps 'tamed' by the Natives i.e Smokie.. go fetch...

I bet Ben wishes he was in control of it - that would give him power.

Here endeth todays ramblings....

Dizzy, you's so smart!  I love that idea.


I too like that idea, and the p'cast said we would see more of her...
but then what of the diploma/cert.s on her wall....did she "earn" them there? Are they actually hers? Just for show? A minor thing, but nonetheless....

The prize out of her morning box of Dharma flakes?

If she's a traveler like Richard, she might have had a mainland life and gotten a degree from a real university.  I'm glad to here she's going to be around.  She's got a great Lost face.