Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x03 => Topic started by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 10:31:21 PM

Title: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 10:31:21 PM
Daniel said that when, although he had a signal, couldn't use his guidance device to bring in the payload.  What does that mean?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 10:34:46 PM
Sorry, too early.  The payload arrives but after a 31 minute delay.  Why in the world then can he speak to the lady on the boat in real time?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: matahari on February 14, 2008, 10:40:15 PM
if the island moved through datelines and timezones it be delayed by 31 minutes
or they are just experiencing a time line 31 min later.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 14, 2008, 11:05:52 PM
The only thing that really doesnt make sense is how they can still talk to each other like nothing is different.

Also, why can you get through if you go straight through a certain berring.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: jillybean4u on February 14, 2008, 11:05:55 PM
So the rocket took 31 minutes to get to Dan. Is the island in a time warp? Is that why Walt is taller, older? And just a side note, this episode was OMG!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Blackrock Bob on February 14, 2008, 11:07:17 PM
The island has some kind of temporal distortion around it. That is why no one can easily find it.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: FoxyMama on February 14, 2008, 11:08:46 PM
Whatever it has around it, where did the rocket go for 31 minutes??  Was it just circling around lost?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: matahari on February 14, 2008, 11:14:29 PM
It's like the universe expanding. The space from the rocket to the island is moving at the same time, speed and trajectory but the space between them is expanding proportionally: it just takes 31 minutes longer
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 14, 2008, 11:14:50 PM
either there was a time warp, or possibly the magnetic disturbances messed with the clock.

dan was very specific to frank that he should follow the exact heading, maybe that heading leads to a window where one can avoid these types of disturbances.?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: E.S.B. on February 14, 2008, 11:21:05 PM
So who else was thinking of Doctor Emmit Brown when Faraday had the two clocks next to each other?  Great scott!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: jillybean4u on February 14, 2008, 11:23:51 PM
So who else was thinking of Doctor Emmit Brown when Faraday had the two clocks next to each other?  Great scott!
That's hilarious! Dan's just as fidgety as Doc Brown!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LoniZeppelin on February 14, 2008, 11:24:44 PM
or the magnetic force messed with the time!?!?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: FoxyMama on February 14, 2008, 11:26:49 PM
1.21 Gigawatts!!   ;D
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: JBRam on February 14, 2008, 11:28:41 PM
I don't think TPTB will be able to explain it as electromagnetism messing with the time.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 14, 2008, 11:30:51 PM
It is interesting that if the magnetism did mess with the time...the seconds were still exaclty the same...33 on each.  So it just messed with the minutes?  I don't know anymore!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: E.S.B. on February 14, 2008, 11:33:58 PM
But it's not just the clocks are messed up - because it actually took longer for the payload to get there.  This was seriously weird.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: JBRam on February 14, 2008, 11:36:53 PM
Minkowski was the first person to coin the phrase "spacetime" according to ABC's pop ups on the latest recap epi.

I think the payload definitely took longer, not just "appeared" to take longer.

And notice how it took 2.5 hours on island time for it to arrive when it should have taken less than 8 seconds at the speed Regina was counting?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LouE68 on February 14, 2008, 11:37:09 PM
Maybe it just slows down physical objects....radio waves travel to the ionosphere and back to earth...beyond the scope of the island...
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 14, 2008, 11:39:09 PM
Yeah.  Good call.  But then there is the question of the real-time conversation! Ok. So the rocket was 31 minutes LATER than island time, right?  So it wasn't just a question of if the rocket got caught up somewhere....it seems like the boat is in a location that is 31 (3+1=4!!!!) minutes AHEAD of the island.  You know how they picked up that Glenn Miller song?  Maybe it seemed real time to us...but it took that long for the waves to.....wave there...:(

it's not a question of the object being slowed down, because the time would be the same.  The rocket would have arrived 31 minutes later, say it got held up in the atmosphere, but the time should have been the same. 
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: jugdish on February 14, 2008, 11:41:21 PM
They keep bringing up the Red Sox winning the world series. I want on of the boat guys to say, "Can you believe it has been six months or  a year" Then the losties would know time is screwed up.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: FoxyMama on February 14, 2008, 11:42:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Not gonna quote all that here, but they've got some interesting information about that space/time continuum stuff. 
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 14, 2008, 11:43:44 PM
Ah quote it!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Austruck on February 14, 2008, 11:47:48 PM
The missile itself didn't "age" for that 31 minutes, right? That's how it's like Back to the Future -- the clocks were 31 minutes apart. The missile's clock was timed as if it had landed when it was supposed to land. And yet it didn't land then. 

So which part of the area is in the distortion? Is it somewhere right offshore, which is why Daniel urged Lapidus to take the exact same path back to the freighter.

Do I have this right so far?  And why does my brain hurt?  ;)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 14, 2008, 11:51:14 PM
Ok.  So say at 2:40 Dan makes the call.  It would seem that at 2:40 Regina recieved the call end sent out the beacon.  But really, it's more like at 2:40 Dan makes the call, and then at 3:11 Regina recieves the call (31 minutes later) and sends out the beacon.  That could be explainable if there wasn't the fact that they were having a conversation. 
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 11:58:35 PM
Using relativity, what time/speed combinations would produce the difference?  Also, what is the range of that rocket?  Certainly not enough to get the result we saw. ??? ???
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: jugdish on February 14, 2008, 11:59:55 PM
it is up on the investigation page. Time difference is 31 minutes 19 seconds
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 15, 2008, 12:02:49 AM
3+1=4, 9-1=8.  God.  I am SO good.  :P

The way i see it there are three options.

1. Something messed up the clock.  Magnetism messing around, faulty equipment...something like that.

2. Regina sent the rocket off later than she said she would.  :-[

3. Regina sent the rocket off at the time Dan asked her too, but passing through the island's barrier means a time disturbance.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: E.S.B. on February 15, 2008, 12:06:11 AM
3+1=4, 9-1=8.  God.  I am SO good.  :P

The way i see it there are three options.

1. Something messed up the clock.  Magnetism messing around, faulty equipment...something like that.

2. Regina sent the rocket off later than she said she would.  :-[

3. Regina sent the rocket off at the time Dan asked her too, but passing through the island's barrier means a time disturbance.

It's gotta be #3.  She was tracking it all the way to the beacon and Dan thought for sure it would be there.  It's like it got stuck or something in the barrier.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 15, 2008, 12:10:24 AM
Ok, so if we go with three... does that mean that island time is the same as off island time, and it was the journey through the barrier causes the disturbance?  That explains the ability to have a real time conversation...it's like the rocket was in another dimension or something for 31 minutes.  So the 'barrier' is really a segway to.   another dimension!  or..something.  maybe that is part of the deal with the whispers...the spirits leave but are stuck halfway between the island and....now i'm making stuff up hardcore....
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: E.S.B. on February 15, 2008, 12:12:05 AM
Well we certainly know the ride to the Island can get pretty bumpy near the end (according to Ethan)!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 15, 2008, 12:13:52 AM
Another excellent point.  So island time is the same as real world time.  Like, if i look at my clock at it says 10:10, sayid will look at his watch and it will say 10:10.  its just the "wrinkle" between the island and me that is off?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: matahari on February 15, 2008, 12:22:08 AM
either there was a time warp, or possibly the magnetic disturbances messed with the clock.

dan was very specific to frank that he should follow the exact heading, maybe that heading leads to a window where one can avoid these types of disturbances.?

Heading remains the same just as coordinates do except when the general mass of Earth expands with time creating a chronological delay due to the enlargement of space and time.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 15, 2008, 12:24:31 AM
but does that mean that the island is constantly fluctuating size...?  sorry, i'm a bit dense.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: matahari on February 15, 2008, 12:31:10 AM
but does that mean that the island is constantly fluctuating size...?  sorry, i'm a bit dense.
The universe is constantly. Thus the island would also be increasing in space, time, and mass. The headings must remain the same as they are proportionate to the rest of the world, however, on the island they are unaware of this causality.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 15, 2008, 12:36:03 AM
so the universe is constantly...but are you saying that the island doesn't..erm...expand at the same rate as the earth? :(
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: on the island on February 15, 2008, 12:39:20 AM
Another excellent point.  So island time is the same as real world time.  Like, if i look at my clock at it says 10:10, sayid will look at his watch and it will say 10:10.  its just the "wrinkle" between the island and me that is off?
I think that sound correct.  It's is almost like there is a "maze" between the island and the outside world.  Time moves the same on either side, but you can't just take a direct route from one to the other.  Apparently Ben may know the trap door to the "maze".  Best analogy I can come up with.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: matahari on February 15, 2008, 12:51:08 AM
so the universe is constantly...but are you saying that the island doesn't..erm...expand at the same rate as the earth? :(

No, I am saying the universe expands at a proportional rate, yet the spacial measurements do not therefore conform to the previously designated increments. An inch is not an inch if a foot is not a foot.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Joseph_Kerr on February 15, 2008, 12:56:59 AM
Or is the Island disconnected from normal time.. like a pocket within time that keeps it separated.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: JMart on February 15, 2008, 01:40:15 AM
Was it just circling around lost?

i absolutely love love loveee this part of your quote :D hahaha
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Nancy Drew on February 15, 2008, 01:51:03 AM
Ok, I'm getting myself all confused about this time-gap thing.

If time moves differently on the island, doesn't that mean that the island isn't just 31 minutes behind the outside world?  Would it mean that for every chunk of time, the island moves another 31 minutes away from time on the outside world??

I have such a headache!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Nancy Drew on February 15, 2008, 01:54:53 AM
But time moves differently on the island.  They wouldn't notice a difference at all if they were just behind by 31 minutes.  They notice a difference because for every certain amount of time passed, they become another 31 minutes off.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: CaseyMac on February 15, 2008, 04:42:41 AM
Another excellent point.  So island time is the same as real world time.  Like, if i look at my clock at it says 10:10, sayid will look at his watch and it will say 10:10.  its just the "wrinkle" between the island and me that is off?
I think that sound correct.  It's is almost like there is a "maze" between the island and the outside world.  Time moves the same on either side, but you can't just take a direct route from one to the other.  Apparently Ben may know the trap door to the "maze".  Best analogy I can come up with.

Yeah, I think it is something along that line also.

The people on the island have had conversations with the outside world, so we know time on the island isn't moving at a different pace, or else there would be a delay, like on live news casts where the other person is across the globe.

Also, Faraday was extremely serious to Frank telling him to go back on the same heading, which I'm sure has something to do with the time gap. Dan's experiment was shooting a rocket with a sychronized clock. Thats all. I mean Dan doesn't seem to know much, but seems to be an expert in his field.

Something is funky with the time, and even the physicist seems to be having a hard time understanding it. My guess is if Frank takes a different heading he'd either stay stuck on the island (snowglobe theory) and not have enough fuel to try again, or the island would spit him out at a different time and/or place like the polar bear.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 15, 2008, 06:14:21 AM
This scene was genius.  At first it seemed that Frank & Jack's conversation about the Red Sox was fluff.  But placed up against Daniel's experiment, it provides crucial information.  Unlike in an oldie but goodie from the Trek canon guest-starring our own Daniel Dae Kim (http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-voy/s6/blink.php), we now know that time moves at the SAME RATE both on the island and off the island.  Otherwise, Frank would have revealed that the World Series hadn't been played yet (real world moving slower) or twenty World Series had been played (real world moving faster). 

Further support can be found in the missile/rocket/payload test.  Looking at a stopwatch, I timed the scene from when Regina said 'go' to 'reached target'.  It took 28 seconds to reach the target from her perspective, and 31+ minutes from Dan's.  By dividing 28 seconds into ~1880 seconds (i.e. 31+ minutes), you get a multiple of about 67.  If the island were somehow moving 67x slower, then yeah, we would've had about 18 World Series games (67 * 100 days on island * 1yr/365 days * 1 World Series/yr).

Ok.  So say at 2:40 Dan makes the call.  It would seem that at 2:40 Regina recieved the call end sent out the beacon.  But really, it's more like at 2:40 Dan makes the call, and then at 3:11 Regina recieves the call (31 minutes later) and sends out the beacon.  That could be explainable if there wasn't the fact that they were having a conversation. 

Yeah, I'm sure there wasn't a 31 minute delay in Regina receiving the call.  As you say, they were having a real-time conversation (at the speed of light).  It's clear that Dan's equipment on the island synchronized the two clocks using island time, transmitted by his communication equipment. 


 It's is almost like there is a "maze" between the island and the outside world.  Time moves the same on either side, but you can't just take a direct route from one to the other.  Apparently Ben may know the trap door to the "maze".  Best analogy I can come up with.

Agreed that time moves the same on the other side.  But I think the maze analogy doesn't work.  For one, the missile/payload flew in gentle arcs, which would not be conducive to a convoluted maze with sharp turns.  Also, I've seen a documentary on those people who have amateur rocket competitions, and I recall that those rockets flew for seconds, maybe a minute tops.  No way something so small as tonight's rocket/payload could carry enough fuel to stay airborne for 31 minutes.  It had to have 'truly' flown for just the 28 seconds.  If there was somehow a 'gap' of hundreds of miles between the island and the boat out in the real world,  then neither the one-way missile nor Frank's round trip on the chopper would have enough fuel for that uncalculated for increase in distance.

I can suggest two avenues:
 1) The old saw about perspective as the crucial explanatory factor, as in cases of a spaceship moving at the speed of light.  Depending on one's frame of reference (on the object in motion, at the target), time passes differently.   The missile/payload experienced the same time-passing-more-slowly effect while in transit.  But one would not expect that Regina's perspective would mirror the missile/payload's...
 2) The boundary between the real world and the island seems to near-normally allow EM signals & light through: the Portuguese guys at the listening post detected the EM pulse from the island; Penny's transmission was finally able to reach the island;  Sunlight comes thru, if a little more concentrated, perhaps due to refraction at the boundary;  Regina's signal got through.  Objects, i.e. those things moving at a tiny fraction of the speed of light, however, are somehow impacted at the boundary.

My guess is if Frank takes a different heading he'd either stay stuck on the island (snowglobe theory) and not have enough fuel to try again, or the island would spit him out at a different time and/or place like the polar bear.

The snowglobe analogy gets me thinking.  Maybe if you hit the boundary head on, you bounce  away in time/space.  Hit it too obliquely, and you either bounce back in, if trying to leave, or bounce back away, if trying to get in.  Hit it at the correct, shallow angle and you can penetrate it.  Sorta like the body shields in Dune, which deflect sudden knife thrusts, but let through slower-speed thrusts.

Hmmm.... So.... time moves at the same rate on the island as in the real world...that's all we can confirm for certain.  But anything moving through the barrier at subsonic speeds - Hanso's Black Rock, choppers, missiles - experiences this still unexplained time warp.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Maxor127 on February 15, 2008, 07:21:32 AM
I'm trying to not even think about it.  If that's true, then a lot more time has passed on the outside world than we were led to believe.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: thebeann on February 15, 2008, 09:14:09 AM
Unless Lapidus is lying (which doesn't make sense since Daniel was so blatant about the time difference thing), then any time difference between island and the real world of the mission team must be relatively small. When Jack asked about the world series, he made a comment about it being 100 days. If it had been, say, 3 years, I would expect some sort of reaction from Lapidus.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: gjohnson on February 15, 2008, 10:08:50 AM
The island has some kind of temporal distortion around it. That is why no one can easily find it.
Wow, the island is LOST in time...
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Swank13 on February 15, 2008, 11:05:16 AM
I mean really who the hell decides to set up a beacon attracting a missile to not only themselves, but also there only lifeline off the island... The Chopper!  I really did think that he was going to blow that thing up.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: *MaZ* on February 15, 2008, 11:07:10 AM
I guess that's exactly what Naomi thought about them - apart from the drunk, of course.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: FoxyMama on February 15, 2008, 11:11:21 AM
Maybe the equipment was sophisticated enough that he knew dead-on where it would hit.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lost Ed on February 15, 2008, 11:15:48 AM
The only reason I knew the heli wasn't gonna get it is because of the previous week's previews where it is shown taking off...otherwise...yeah, I thought the heli was a gonner...even though I knew better...I still thought it was a gonner :)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: *MaZ* on February 15, 2008, 11:30:40 AM
Another excellent point.  So island time is the same as real world time.  Like, if i look at my clock at it says 10:10, sayid will look at his watch and it will say 10:10.  its just the "wrinkle" between the island and me that is off?
I think that sound correct.  It's is almost like there is a "maze" between the island and the outside world.  Time moves the same on either side, but you can't just take a direct route from one to the other.  Apparently Ben may know the trap door to the "maze".  Best analogy I can come up with.
I think you have nailed it. Sounds very real, and doesn't go into "time travel" crazy stuff.
Also, might explain how Walt became "tall". They got stuck in the maze, somehow he aged.
Does that mean we're going to see an old Michael??
Geez, if he was a screamer before, imagine now: a hard-of-hearing old man!
Pleeeaaase writers/producers: maybe he died of old age in the boat???
I'll take Christian coming back anyday, but keep "MYBOY" Michael out of the show!!!!!! rsrsrsrsrsr....
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: doggpound on February 15, 2008, 11:32:40 AM
If you recall, when Walt/Michael left the island on the boat, Ben was extremely specific about what heading to take.

So that's two instances of 'the correct heading/bearing' to leave the island.

Also, can someone try and relate this back to the logs that were found in the Pearl?  I recall some discrepancies there when they were first noticed.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: *MaZ* on February 15, 2008, 11:35:35 AM
If you recall, when Walt/Michael left the island on the boat, Ben was extremely specific about what heading to take.

So that's two instances of 'the correct heading/bearing' to leave the island.
I'm guessing he might have given him the INcorrect bearing, he never wanted anyone to go back to the outside world. Sent them on a bearing that would have them sailing around the maze for a while and then back?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: The_Soilworker on February 15, 2008, 11:42:23 AM
I think we missed the most important thing : WHY..bring a missile with atomic clocks. to an Assasination / Rescue Mission.. or whatever. Did they EXPECT the whole time-bending thingy ? I mean, it`s not the average survival gear ?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: bubbles on February 15, 2008, 11:42:50 AM
I had the same thought, it was like " come on dude! move a few feet away from the chopper!"
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Savior on February 15, 2008, 11:45:19 AM
When he said payload, i was expecting some boxes to drop in by parachute.  I would not be standing next to the beacon if it was a missle/projectile coming in.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Blackrock Bob on February 15, 2008, 12:06:14 PM
He did put it close to the helicopter, but it was dead on. Maybe he was just so certain it would land exactly where he expected it to? Personally, I'd stay away from his experiments.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: joeboo on February 15, 2008, 12:10:01 PM
When he first said "fire the payload" and the countdown was going on the camera panned to an angle that showed his face and the mountains behind him.  I was completely expecting the mountains to be lit up by some HUGE artillery shells.  but what actually happened was good too.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: *MaZ* on February 15, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
When he first said "fire the payload" and the countdown was going on the camera panned to an angle that showed his face and the mountains behind him.  I was completely expecting the mountains to be lit up by some HUGE artillery shells.  but what actually happened was good too.
I was reassured by the pilot saying "they do this on the boat all the time".
BTW, love your avatar.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: gjohnson on February 15, 2008, 12:18:01 PM
Oh, I think they're on the island for more than Ben. I think the whole light-scattering comment was what he was expecting based on what he was told, but just too impossible to believe.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 15, 2008, 12:50:57 PM
I think that if there is a time barrier to the island, and that missle was travelling rapidly across it, then it would be very difficult for a helicopter or a boat to cross unless they had perfect navigation like a computer.  Yet, we see a drunk guy flying through an electrical storm and they make it.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 15, 2008, 12:52:59 PM
Another excellent point.  So island time is the same as real world time.  Like, if i look at my clock at it says 10:10, sayid will look at his watch and it will say 10:10.  its just the "wrinkle" between the island and me that is off?
I think that sound correct.  It's is almost like there is a "maze" between the island and the outside world.  Time moves the same on either side, but you can't just take a direct route from one to the other.  Apparently Ben may know the trap door to the "maze".  Best analogy I can come up with.
I think you have nailed it. Sounds very real, and doesn't go into "time travel" crazy stuff.
Also, might explain how Walt became "tall". They got stuck in the maze, somehow he aged.
Does that mean we're going to see an old Michael??
Geez, if he was a screamer before, imagine now: a hard-of-hearing old man!
Pleeeaaase writers/producers: maybe he died of old age in the boat???
I'll take Christian coming back anyday, but keep "MYBOY" Michael out of the show!!!!!! rsrsrsrsrsr....


i said something along these lines in another thread
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Bud on February 15, 2008, 02:53:48 PM
i have a theory that the missile went once around the planet before it landed and this took 31mins. what speed would it have to be traveling to do 1 circumference of the planet in that time?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Savior on February 15, 2008, 02:55:26 PM
That little thing must be very fuel efficient to make it around the world.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 15, 2008, 02:56:27 PM
So lets say it went around the world.  But that doesn't explain the time difference.  As the clock is ticking in the rocket on its path around the world, Dan's clock is ticking out the same. 
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Falam on February 15, 2008, 05:06:18 PM
Agreed that time moves the same on the other side.  But I think the maze analogy doesn't work.  For one, the missile/payload flew in gentle arcs, which would not be conducive to a convoluted maze with sharp turns.  Also, I've seen a documentary on those people who have amateur rocket competitions, and I recall that those rockets flew for seconds, maybe a minute tops.  No way something so small as tonight's rocket/payload could carry enough fuel to stay airborne for 31 minutes.  It had to have 'truly' flown for just the 28 seconds.  If there was somehow a 'gap' of hundreds of miles between the island and the boat out in the real world,  then neither the one-way missile nor Frank's round trip on the chopper would have enough fuel for that uncalculated for increase in distance.


Admittedly, I don't know much about space-time continuum and the theory of relativity, but since the clock in the missle was 31 minutes off from Faraday's clock, wouldn't it have HAD to been in the air for those 31 minutes? I mean, isn't the clock just a man-made digital object?  For Faraday to make the conclusion of a time-delay or whatever, the clocks must've been synchronised originally.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: *MaZ* on February 15, 2008, 05:45:28 PM
That little thing must be very fuel efficient to make it around the world.
;)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Ladybug on February 15, 2008, 05:46:00 PM
every time i see this thread i start singing....


*********lets do the time warp again..........
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: MDSkinner on February 15, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
Agreed that time moves the same on the other side.  But I think the maze analogy doesn't work.  For one, the missile/payload flew in gentle arcs, which would not be conducive to a convoluted maze with sharp turns.  Also, I've seen a documentary on those people who have amateur rocket competitions, and I recall that those rockets flew for seconds, maybe a minute tops.  No way something so small as tonight's rocket/payload could carry enough fuel to stay airborne for 31 minutes.  It had to have 'truly' flown for just the 28 seconds.  If there was somehow a 'gap' of hundreds of miles between the island and the boat out in the real world,  then neither the one-way missile nor Frank's round trip on the chopper would have enough fuel for that uncalculated for increase in distance.


Admittedly, I don't know much about space-time continuum and the theory of relativity, but since the clock in the missle was 31 minutes off from Faraday's clock, wouldn't it have HAD to been in the air for those 31 minutes? I mean, isn't the clock just a man-made digital object?  For Faraday to make the conclusion of a time-delay or whatever, the clocks must've been synchronised originally.

Perhaps the rocket instead of being in the air for those extra 30 minutes just removed itself from time for 30 minutes before reappearing (making the other clock keep going and it stay the same).  At this point anything is possible.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 15, 2008, 06:07:18 PM
Admittedly, I don't know much about space-time continuum and the theory of relativity, but since the clock in the missle was 31 minutes off from Faraday's clock, wouldn't it have HAD to been in the air for those 31 minutes? I mean, isn't the clock just a man-made digital object?  For Faraday to make the conclusion of a time-delay or whatever, the clocks must've been synchronised originally.

Here's a possibility.  Time moves at the same rate on the island as it does off the island.  Let's say the bubble around the island is 100' thick.  When within that 100', time moves at a much faster clip.  So while the missile is traversing the 100', it's clock speeds up.  But from the perspective of both Dan on the Island & Regina on the boat, time appears to move normally.  

Wikipedia's definition of special relativity includes:
 
     Special relativity overthrows Newtonian notions of absolute space
     and time by stating that time and space are perceived differently
     in the sense that measurements of length and time intervals depend on
     the motion of the observer.

Somehow, when within that 100' bubble envelope, motion, and thus the flow of time, is different.  Not time travel tho!  And it is perceived differently on either side of the bubble envelope.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LostAndSeek on February 15, 2008, 07:35:07 PM
That little thing must be very fuel efficient to make it around the world.

 ;D
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 15, 2008, 11:31:13 PM
Relativity doesn't work here cause the speed of the rocket could never be enough to make a difference.  As objects go faster and faster, particularly as they approach the speed of light, their mass expands (look up E=mc squared stuff) and it takes more energy to go faster.  Relativity was tested by flying KC-135's around with special clocks on them that were then measured....after thousands of miles of flight at 600 mph....to me within microseconds of those on the ground.  Relativity takes speed and time so forget about this theory in practical applications of warping space time.  All of this came from wikipedia.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 16, 2008, 03:43:06 PM
This does not necessarily diminish the likelihood of relativity being important down to zero.  Within the 'maelstrom', i.e. bubble, around the island, there is surely something going on that affects matter but not EM waves.

I am guessing that the writers have considered incorporating both novel, proven theories in physics, along with theoretical work like MPUs, string theory, dark matter, etc.  They'll choose a mixture of proven & theoretical physics, to reach an optimal balance of believability and the wow factor.

I can't imagine anything from Physics 101 to explain the unexpected result from Dan's rocket experiment.  So why not something from the cutting edge? Regardless, I bet Dan keeps his conclusions to himself for a while longer.  While Jack has been called a Man of Science, his curiousity in Dan's experiment was rather tepid.  He cowered under the tree, for Pete's sake! And afterward he didn't press Dan to explain the result. How disappointed I am in Jack.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 16, 2008, 03:56:49 PM
The gravity required to warp space time to that degree would make pancakes out of all the survivors and ben would be a flat piece of bacon.  Forget relativity.  I think they've gone outside of strict science on this one.  Sure, they'll give some magic box answer with a device that looks either mysterious or scientific.  But, there won't be some strict explanation based on relativity or strict quantum mechanics.   My husband has been explaining some of this to me.  He loves lost but won't take to the idea of visiting a fan page.  His loss :-\  But, the show keeps adding all of these whacky things and I think it is getting more difficult to tie them all together without some really wierd, bizarre, explanation.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 16, 2008, 07:45:50 PM
If I were to fall into a Black Hole and you were watching from a distance, I would just go right in. But to me I would be falling forever, until I get ripped apart from gravity.

So If she fired a rocket and watched in go all the way in, but the rocket had more inflight time from the "Black Hole" effect.

As for the real time talking to the boat, I think the "Barrier/Bubble" has a hole in the top to allow the satellite phone signal in and out with no problems. The phones are not like walkie talkies with a line of sight transmissions. The signal goes up to space and back down.

I hope this makes sense to someone cause I just confused myself.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 16, 2008, 08:02:22 PM
There was some reference last year to some superhero that could vibrate through walls.  Radio signals are waveform with little particulate behavior.  Larger objects, though large, still behave according to De Broglie's equations although the oscillations are so small as to be immeasurable.  So, the radio can get through because it can vibrate through the wall.  Larger particulates, a rocket, have a more pronounced delay.  So, you've got a time barrier to large objects...but not small. 


That was my husband so don't ask me what he said!!!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 16, 2008, 09:25:10 PM
Quote
Hmmm.... So.... time moves at the same rate on the island as in the real world...that's all we can confirm for certain.  But anything moving through the barrier at subsonic speeds - Hanso's Black Rock, choppers, missiles - experiences this still unexplained time warp.

Couldn't it be that there is only one "tear" "gap" in the bubble and that is the only way in or out?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: ptosistheseus on February 17, 2008, 03:19:53 AM
In Daniel's Experiment, why can the islanders and freighter crew talk
on the phone in real time yet a missile lands after a long time for the
islanders.?   I've got an idea in lost_in_time


Lost in Time
What Does Daniel's Experiment Mean (http://"http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/605527/lost_in_time.html")
Interactive Java applet link!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 17, 2008, 06:27:11 AM
There was some reference last year to some superhero that could vibrate through walls.  Radio signals are waveform with little particulate behavior.  Larger objects, though large, still behave according to De Broglie's equations although the oscillations are so small as to be immeasurable.  So, the radio can get through because it can vibrate through the wall.  Larger particulates, a rocket, have a more pronounced delay.  So, you've got a time barrier to large objects...but not small. 


If I may, I'd like to propose an analogy for what you are saying here from the fertility clinic.  Someone who is looking into a microscope sees the light coming through the glass, no problem, because the light is waveform, and can vibrate through the crystaline silica lattice which forms the glass.  If you were to observe an egg being fertilized by sperm, it takes a while for the sperm to wiggle their way inside, since the egg's wall is more substantial than the glass, and the sperm more substantial than light.  In LOST, the missile penetrating the island's 'bubble' is like the sperm fertilizing the egg - both have to wiggle through.

However, how does this explain the missile taking only 28 seconds to reach target, from Regina's perspective? And if it is taking this greater effort, is it '31 minutes worth' of effort? And could the rocket possibly contain enough fuel for a 31 minute flight?

I had mentioned it earlier, Dan has to run this experiment again, but in reverse, to see if the flight takes 28 seconds from his perspective, and 31 minutes from Regina's.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: PNS on February 17, 2008, 08:14:48 AM
Did you notice?
The missile send from ship to Dan, was arrived from opposite direction than he expect it !!! What it mean ?  :o
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 17, 2008, 11:27:39 AM
There was some reference last year to some superhero that could vibrate through walls.  Radio signals are waveform with little particulate behavior.  Larger objects, though large, still behave according to De Broglie's equations although the oscillations are so small as to be immeasurable.  So, the radio can get through because it can vibrate through the wall.  Larger particulates, a rocket, have a more pronounced delay.  So, you've got a time barrier to large objects...but not small. 


If I may, I'd like to propose an analogy for what you are saying here from the fertility clinic.  Someone who is looking into a microscope sees the light coming through the glass, no problem, because the light is waveform, and can vibrate through the crystaline silica lattice which forms the glass.  If you were to observe an egg being fertilized by sperm, it takes a while for the sperm to wiggle their way inside, since the egg's wall is more substantial than the glass, and the sperm more substantial than light.  In LOST, the missile penetrating the island's 'bubble' is like the sperm fertilizing the egg - both have to wiggle through.

However, how does this explain the missile taking only 28 seconds to reach target, from Regina's perspective? And if it is taking this greater effort, is it '31 minutes worth' of effort? And could the rocket possibly contain enough fuel for a 31 minute flight?

I had mentioned it earlier, Dan has to run this experiment again, but in reverse, to see if the flight takes 28 seconds from his perspective, and 31 minutes from Regina's.

How long did the trip take from the missile's perspective?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: goober on February 17, 2008, 02:15:30 PM
From the perspective of general relativity, if the island were time-shifted or exists in an area of space that is warped, the inhabitants of the island would experience time moving much slower than those who were outside the warped area. Not really a bubble, more like an indentation or funnel in that particular area of the space-time continuum. Maybe whatever is causing the funnel-effect is responsible for the special EM properties of the island also??
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 17, 2008, 02:28:05 PM
I don't understand.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: goober on February 17, 2008, 02:32:51 PM
Areas of warped space exhibit unique EM emission patterns (e.g. neutron stars, pulsars, etc.)

http://www.nrao.edu/whatisra/mechanisms.shtml
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 17, 2008, 09:36:06 PM
... the inhabitants of the island would experience time moving much slower than those who were outside the warped area...

I noted previously that Jack's conversation with Frank elicts the fact that only one World Series had been played during the last 100 days since the crash.  If one holds that the missile test proves that time moves 60+times slower on the island (31 minutes / ~.5 minute = ~60+), then there would've been ~20 World Series played by now.  Obviously not the case.  Hence the elegance of this being a perception issue.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 17, 2008, 09:57:14 PM
Areas of warped space exhibit unique EM emission patterns (e.g. neutron stars, pulsars, etc.)

http://www.nrao.edu/whatisra/mechanisms.shtml

From what I've read, EM fields can only affect/bend charged particles.  This might explain why the sat. phone's signals make it through without a problem.  Bodies like neutron starts, however, consist of both EM and gravimetric effects, and it's the gravity component that is bending light and physical objects such as the missile.  Astronomers have been able to use such gravitational lensing to detect both the red shifting of more distant stars (and thus the age of the universe) and the likely presence of dark matter, despite the fact that we can't yet directly see this dark matter.

If I were a writer of Lost, looking for a dynamo to power this island, my top choice du jour would be dark matter, and it's deeper analog, dark energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DarkMatterPie.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCgTJ6ID6ZA

It'd make a perfectly plausible explanation, say, that the island rests upon some vein of dark matter breaking through the dimensional barrier between visible, baryonic matter, and dark matter. 
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 18, 2008, 02:52:11 AM
Why can't there just be a constant 31 minute time shift from island time and world time. If we use the time travel talking like in the movie Frequency and the difference is only 31 minutes never longer or shorter. Then When the missile is fired from Regina's perspective it takes 28 seconds to get to the island. Unknown to miles he is talking to the future and has to wait for the 31 minutes to elapse before it is fired. Thus the missiles time of flight is always 28 seconds for everyone.

This does not mean that 28 seconds = 31 minutes. But rather 31 minutes is the difference between island and world times.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on February 18, 2008, 10:10:49 AM
I like the idea that you can wiggle through the snowglobe like sperm fertilising an egg, needing a specific heading (and pace no doubt). I like the idea that you can't speed through it - you'll just get bounced off (either inside the globe or outside it). I like the idea that this is what caused the plane to crash, if the angle was right so that it could slide through, but it's mass meant that it co-existed in two 'time-zones' making it break in two....

I like it - it's clever. Doc Brown was right after all - let's hope they didnt steal the plutoneum from the Libyians...
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 18, 2008, 07:30:17 PM
Yeah, with some comparable examples in sci-fi: penetrating a body-shield in Dune with a controlled knife thrust, penetrating a starship's shield in Star Trek only if you hit upon the exact 'frequency', dialing exact coordinates on an SG1 stargate, etc.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: firemanandlostfan on February 18, 2008, 11:03:23 PM
I'm suddenly not smart enough to watch this show.... (sighs)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: E.S.B. on February 18, 2008, 11:18:19 PM
I'm suddenly not smart enough to watch this show.... (sighs)

Dude, the way I look at it, all you need to know about the missile is Doctor Emmit Brown sending Einstein one minute into the future and comparing the two watches to prove it.  Break it down to that, and you don't have to worry about all the other stuff that makes your eyes glaze over!  At least this is how I rationalize it to myself...   ;D
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 18, 2008, 11:21:55 PM
I'm trying to not even think about it.  If that's true, then a lot more time has passed on the outside world than we were led to believe.
Bingo.  Ben was made up to look in his mid 50's in the Vet scene with Sayid, while he's made up to look like he's in his early 40's on the island.  Future Ben is using Sayid as a hired assassin to kill everyone who either knows something about the islands special properties, or anyone who is trying to get back there to rescue the ones left behind.  I see a future showdown in the climax of the show between Ben and Jack (rematch of Through the Looking Glass), where Ben and Jack match wits to see who wins.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: firemanandlostfan on February 18, 2008, 11:24:35 PM
i long for a time when all I had to know was that you had to type numbers in a computer to save the world.....
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 18, 2008, 11:34:08 PM
We have yet to see the temple, Jacob (hebrew root is "foot" --the statue), and....will there be an esau?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on February 19, 2008, 09:29:05 AM
i saw no seesaw - but i saw swings....

;)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: PNS on February 19, 2008, 01:37:10 PM
Hermann Minkowski=> Albert Einstein=> Philadelphia experiment
Maybe was the island part of similar experiment???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Minkowski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Minkowski)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 19, 2008, 06:29:45 PM
Minkowski couldn't create enough dimensions to explain lost.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 19, 2008, 07:56:16 PM
By which you're suggesting Minkowski merely incorporated the dimension of time with space to create a four dimensional manifold, and that the island must exist in dimensions beyond just those four?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on February 20, 2008, 05:41:02 AM
By which you're suggesting Minkowski merely incorporated the dimension of time with space to create a four dimensional manifold, and that the island must exist in dimensions beyond just those four?
eh??
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 20, 2008, 10:21:33 AM
By which you're suggesting Minkowski merely incorporated the dimension of time with space to create a four dimensional manifold, and that the island must exist in dimensions beyond just those four?

Minkowski developed the mathematics, paticularly tensor analysis, necessary to describe space time and to model it's behavior.  However, if you buy into the idea that each quantum probability physicially exists (that would mean MPU's), then you have infinity times four axes. ::)

Minkowski is nevertheless another reference to space time. :P :P
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 20, 2008, 01:48:02 PM
I'm trying to not even think about it.  If that's true, then a lot more time has passed on the outside world than we were led to believe.
Bingo.  Ben was made up to look in his mid 50's in the Vet scene with Sayid, while he's made up to look like he's in his early 40's on the island.  Future Ben is using Sayid as a hired assassin to kill everyone who either knows something about the islands special properties, or anyone who is trying to get back there to rescue the ones left behind.  I see a future showdown in the climax of the show between Ben and Jack (rematch of Through the Looking Glass), where Ben and Jack match wits to see who wins.

not trying to start another debate here, but how did Ben get "made up" to look like he was in his 50's

honestly, he looked no different to me, just a bit more together, nice crisp shirt, and glasses
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 03:59:32 PM
I agree that he's not in his 50s in the vet clinic. The grimy tropical island look seems to make people look a few years younger, and secret California closet attire a few years older. And ever notice how certain lighting - fluorescent, airplane bathroon - makes you suddenly look 10 years older? That's all it is.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 20, 2008, 04:20:36 PM
I thought we were discussing Minkowski.   Strangely enough, Minkowski did not fully grasp Einstein's formulations although he could test their interrelations.  Einstein would describe the relationships necessary, provide probable equations, and would then rely on Minkowski to manage the system.  In mathematical models, the enemy is the interaction of variables to produce a nonsensical answer....infinity.  The easiest example is a one over zero fraction.  Could the numbers be coefficients that cannot be plugged into the Valenzetti equation (or numbers that must be placed in order to stabilize it)?

Anyway, the missile did a time warp and lost is now potentially a story about time travel.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: gjohnson on February 20, 2008, 04:24:51 PM
If it's a story about time travel, why doesn't Ben just go to Australia before 815 leaves, don a mechanics jumpsuit and some novelty teeth like Fletch and point to the problem with the plane like "I think its the bypass line..." and then head to the nearest cancer treatment center for some chemo and radiation treatment???
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 20, 2008, 04:27:14 PM
Anyway, the missile did a time warp and lost is now potentially a story about time travel.

actually, its not about TIME TRAVEL, its about a time warp, TPTB have now said it two times (to my count) there is NO time travel

yeah shoot me now for debating this yet again

please provide me one instance, where time TRAVEL is shown,

desmond - may have traveled in time i'll admit that

farradays missle - did not travel in time, in the sense it came from the future or came from the past, it was WARPED, there is a difference

now, can anyone provide me with an example of someone/something actually travelling in time on Lost?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 04:44:38 PM
yeah. I need an explanation of how the polar bear was found in a Cretaceous fossil bed, if not be time travel.  And the likelihood that time travel is possible, but that nothing living can survive it.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 20, 2008, 04:53:57 PM
yeah. I need an explanation of how the polar bear was found in a Cretaceous fossil bed, if not be time travel.  And the likelihood that time travel is possible, but that nothing living can survive it.

it was teleported, Orchid Video, bunnies etc

but i would like to touch on this, did anyone notice the "dig" that was going on with the polar bear.

when i was in egypt back in 1999, we went to an archielogical dig, (crazy tourism they have there) and it looked NOTHING like that, i'm talking 20-30meters below ground, not for nothing but the polar bear looked like it was bearly/barely 4ft below the ground, i find it hard to believe that this thing was there for thousands of years and only be a few feet below ground, makes no sense

and because of this, i'm going with the Teleportation theory on the polar bear

picture this - its 1980 (just play along) Dr CandleWaxGuy experiments, and sends mr polar bear somewhere via orchid station, it ends up in the sands of Tunisia, and as we know polar bears dont live in the hot, waterless, sand pit of Tunisia, so it lasts a day or two then dies, then a dust storm comes and covers it up, (repeat dust storm for several years) its discovered 24 yrs later
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 20, 2008, 04:59:28 PM
If you're going to test some device, use an animal.  In this case, the device jumps you off the island to another place (time, reality, etc.    ::) ::)).  So, bambi is walking through the woods and suddenly she wakes up in tropical paradise, but in a cage.  The slap a collar on her and see if she survives the trip back.  But, what if you want to go to the artic....no bambi....use a polar bear.  But, in our case, on the way back, the polar bear went to Tunisia instead of northern alaska.

The bear may have nothing to do with time travel.  It may suggest that there is some "teleportation" device.  But, it may also suggest that the island is, in fact, anywhere and everywhere.....that it has not geographic location per se.  Instead, it is reached by weirdo scientific mechanisms, meditating deeply while holding a chicken head, or something else.   :o :o Again, don't tell my kids I just said that.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Creflo on February 20, 2008, 05:19:14 PM
First, I think this is why one must enter or leave The Island along precise coordinates:

(http://www.magnetic-shield.com/images/dynamics/flux-images.jpg)

You wanna go with the flow here, not against the waves.


Second, I think the important thing to note about the real-time communication off Island vs delayed time rocketry is this:

- When Faraday made the call, it's not as if he said "it's now X:XX o'clock...synchronize watches."  We don't know what time it was on the boat.
- 30 minutes went by before he saw what she saw in 30 seconds.  The difference in time is not necessarily a direct ratio or logarithmic or anything else that could be easily calculated.

Most importantly, imagine if the rocket had a camera in the nose:

- We've seen that video communications were real-time also (Penny/Charlie) so let's say Faraday is watching the feed from the rocket-cam.
- For ease, let's say that it's 4:00 on Faraday's watch and we don't know what time it is on the boat (doesn't matter for this example)
- He's told that the rocket-cam just launches, and he looks at his monitor and sees it lift off towards The Island.
- According to the boat, the rocket flight lasted only ~30 seconds.
- Either Faraday watches a video running in super-slow-motion that takes 30 minutes to land at his feet, OR...

Faraday can see into the future through the rocket.  He watches a flight that takes 30 seconds on his monitor and sees the image of it hitting the feet of a future-him with a watch that reads 4:30.  Neither the rocket nor Faraday travels time, but the communication between the rocket and Faraday shows a man who can peer into the future and a rocket which can see into the past.  If a tiny man was on board that rocket in constant communication with Faraday, he would hear "where are you? I don't see you!" throughout the flight from a Faraday who is 30 minutes back in time.


When the children entered the wardrobe, they didn't travel in time.  When they came out, time had gone by much slower in the real world than they expected, based on their time spent in Narnia.  I'd say that a similar experiment would show a time distortion between a missile fired through the wardrobe and a clock held by someone on either side.



Oh, and for the polar bear...there's nothing to imply that the thing was teleported.  Deterritorialization of Ursus Maritimus was the stated goal.  They could do that with a tranq and a sub.

Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 05:21:22 PM
yeah. I need an explanation of how the polar bear was found in a Cretaceous fossil bed, if not be time travel.  And the likelihood that time travel is possible, but that nothing living can survive it.

it was teleported, Orchid Video, bunnies etc

but i would like to touch on this, did anyone notice the "dig" that was going on with the polar bear.

when i was in egypt back in 1999, we went to an archielogical dig, (crazy tourism they have there) and it looked NOTHING like that, i'm talking 20-30meters below ground, not for nothing but the polar bear looked like it was bearly/barely 4ft below the ground, i find it hard to believe that this thing was there for thousands of years and only be a few feet below ground, makes no sense

and because of this, i'm going with the Teleportation theory on the polar bear

picture this - its 1980 (just play along) Dr CandleWaxGuy experiments, and sends mr polar bear somewhere via orchid station, it ends up in the sands of Tunisia, and as we know polar bears dont live in the hot, waterless, sand pit of Tunisia, so it lasts a day or two then dies, then a dust storm comes and covers it up, (repeat dust storm for several years) its discovered 24 yrs later
Oh, I totally agree with the Orchid Video/Teleportation-gone-awry scenario to explain how the polar bear got to Tunisia.  Your point about the bones being found essentially at level ground is a good observation, for we've all at least seen programs showing archaeologists digging down many dozens of feet to reach what they're looking for.  But the thing about fossil beds is that, as tectonic forces lift them up, erosion can wear away higher layers, exposing fossils, say, from the Cretaceous.  Our polar bear may have keeled over on top of one of these layers, and the sand blown on top of it.

You know, I'm now thinking there's a strong possibility that Charlotte is just not a good archaelogist. Let's her biases color her interpretations.  When she was unearthing the polar bear collar, the bones were surrounded by a rather loose accretion of gravel & dirt. True fossils are bones that have chemically turned into rocks, and are often fused with the rock surrounding the fossils.  Our polar bear's bones looked like normal bones in dirt, i.e. not fossilized.  It merely died on top of an exposed fossil bed, then was covered back over by blowing sand, etc.  

Also, the Dharma collar would not've survived intact if it had been exposed to the elements since the Cretaceous.  Tho Tunisia may be rather dry now, changing global weather patterns and Continental Drift would have provided many eons of wet, tropical climates conducive to decay.

So, here is the rationalization to explain away the polar bear as having travelled in time.  Now, all that seems left is an explanation for Des's little magical voyage en temps.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: TheGoodPeople on February 20, 2008, 05:32:15 PM
yeah. I need an explanation of how the polar bear was found in a Cretaceous fossil bed, if not be time travel.  And the likelihood that time travel is possible, but that nothing living can survive it.

it was teleported, Orchid Video, bunnies etc

but i would like to touch on this, did anyone notice the "dig" that was going on with the polar bear.

when i was in egypt back in 1999, we went to an archielogical dig, (crazy tourism they have there) and it looked NOTHING like that, i'm talking 20-30meters below ground, not for nothing but the polar bear looked like it was bearly/barely 4ft below the ground, i find it hard to believe that this thing was there for thousands of years and only be a few feet below ground, makes no sense

and because of this, i'm going with the Teleportation theory on the polar bear

picture this - its 1980 (just play along) Dr CandleWaxGuy experiments, and sends mr polar bear somewhere via orchid station, it ends up in the sands of Tunisia, and as we know polar bears dont live in the hot, waterless, sand pit of Tunisia, so it lasts a day or two then dies, then a dust storm comes and covers it up, (repeat dust storm for several years) its discovered 24 yrs later
Oh, I totally agree with the Orchid Video/Teleportation-gone-awry scenario to explain how the polar bear got to Tunisia.  Your point about the bones being found essentially at level ground is a good observation, for we've all at least seen programs showing archaeologists digging down many dozens of feet to reach what they're looking for.  But the thing about fossil beds is that, as tectonic forces lift them up, erosion can wear away higher layers, exposing fossils, say, from the Cretaceous.  Our polar bear may have keeled over on top of one of these layers, and the sand blown on top of it.

You know, I'm now thinking there's a strong possibility that Charlotte is just not a good archaelogist. Let's her biases color her interpretations.  When she was unearthing the polar bear collar, the bones were surrounded by a rather loose accretion of gravel & dirt. True fossils are bones that have chemically turned into rocks, and are often fused with the rock surrounding the fossils.  Our polar bear's bones looked like normal bones in dirt, i.e. not fossilized.  It merely died on top of an exposed fossil bed, then was covered back over by blowing sand, etc.  

Also, the Dharma collar would not've survived intact if it had been exposed to the elements since the Cretaceous.  Tho Tunisia may be rather dry now, changing global weather patterns and Continental Drift would have provided many eons of wet, tropical climates conducive to decay.

So, here is the rationalization to explain away the polar bear as having travelled in time.  Now, all that seems left is an explanation for Des's little magical voyage en temps.

Ok well, first, Charlotte is an Anthropologist right?. there was nothing to point toward the assumption that the bear had been there since pre-historic times. the bones were not fossilized they were bones burried in gravel and loose sand. it maked perfect sense to me that the bear was "Orchidified" there where it died the flesh rotted and it was burried in sand.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 05:35:12 PM
Oh, and for the polar bear...there's nothing to imply that the thing was teleported.  Deterritorialization of Ursus Maritimus was the stated goal.  They could do that with a tranq and a sub.

Yet Carlton & Damon say flat out in the Podcast to look to the Orchid Video to explain the Tunisian polar bear. I.e. teleportation. I don't get the sense of willful misdirection on their part.

As for the de-territorializaiton of Ursus Maritimus, that may have been the goal of the Dharma Zoology unit, but perhaps the unit in charge of teleportation re-appropriated the animals for their unit's experiments.  Or the bear was accidentally teleported in 'the incident'.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 20, 2008, 05:46:50 PM
Oh, and for the polar bear...there's nothing to imply that the thing was teleported.  Deterritorialization of Ursus Maritimus was the stated goal.  They could do that with a tranq and a sub.

Yet Carlton & Damon say flat out in the Podcast to look to the Orchid Video to explain the Tunisian polar bear. I.e. teleportation. I don't get the sense of willful misdirection on their part.



i'm glad we're on the same page
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 05:48:10 PM
Ok well, first, Charlotte is an Anthropologist right?. there was nothing to point toward the assumption that the bear had been there since pre-historic times. the bones were not fossilized they were bones burried in gravel and loose sand. it maked perfect sense to me that the bear was "Orchidified" there where it died the flesh rotted and it was burried in sand.

Ooops, you're right. I, too, have now committed the cardinal sin of mixing up archaeologist with anthropologist.  Plus, Charlotte was a cultural anthropologist, perhaps among the other subfields of anthropology (biology, linguistics, archaeology) the least based on scientifically testable methodologies.  So, that increaeses the likelihood that she has misinterpreted the archaeological evidence.

I don't recall who said it - Charlotte or her local contact - but someone said the bones were found in a fossil strata where it should not have been.  I think our analysis of the possible explanations for this casts doubt on the notion that this is an case of time travel. Just simple, everyday teleportation.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Creflo on February 20, 2008, 05:51:01 PM
I thought this thread was about the missle and time.

The Orchid vid doesn't necessarily show teleportation.  Sure, #15 wasn't in that place before, but it may have come from a different time but the same place.

The definition of what they're supposedly studying at Station 6:
"In physics, the Casimir effect or Casimir-Polder force is a physical force exerted between separate objects due to resonance of all-pervasive energy fields in the intervening space between the objects."

That would explain why the two rabbits shouldn't be brought close together.

EDIT:Having now heard the podcast, I take it back.

But, dammit, the thread is about time travel and I want someone to ponder my post about Narnia and nose-cams!!!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 20, 2008, 05:52:06 PM
 I think our analysis of the possible explanations for this casts doubt on the notion that this is a case of time travel. Just simple, everyday teleportation.

can we watch the show together??? lol
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: TheGoodPeople on February 20, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
Ok well, first, Charlotte is an Anthropologist right?. there was nothing to point toward the assumption that the bear had been there since pre-historic times. the bones were not fossilized they were bones burried in gravel and loose sand. it maked perfect sense to me that the bear was "Orchidified" there where it died the flesh rotted and it was burried in sand.

I think our analysis of the possible explanations for this casts doubt on the notion that this is an case of time travel. Just simple, everyday teleportation.

i guess that what i was trying to get at
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 06:26:18 PM
When the children entered the wardrobe, they didn't travel in time.  When they came out, time had gone by much slower in the real world than they expected, based on their time spent in Narnia.  I'd say that a similar experiment would show a time distortion between a missile fired through the wardrobe and a clock held by someone on either side.


Again, from the conversation between Frank & Jack about the World Series, we learn only one World Series has occurred off-island.  This suggests the time is moving at similar rates in both places.  Nothing else in the island history (and there has been a lot of events & props) suggests a significant difference in rates.  What I believe we have here can be described as a one-off distortion effect which comes into play when moving to/from the island.  The most elegant explanation incorporates Time Dilation effects or Simultaneity.

First, I think this is why one must enter or leave The Island along precise coordinates:

(http://www.magnetic-shield.com/images/dynamics/flux-images.jpg)

You wanna go with the flow here, not against the waves.

There clearly are EM effects on the island.  But how to scientifically justify the sudden strength of EM forces?  EM only overcomes gravity when a magnet is cooled to near zero Kelvin, and becomes a super-conductor.  Not to mention the strong & weak nuclear forces. How could EM forces 'push' objects entering/leaving the island, when in nature, even the power of a lighting bolt can be re-directed with proper grounding?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: tonysee200x on February 20, 2008, 06:36:05 PM
Quote
from the conversation between Frank & Jack about the World Series, we learn only one World Series has occurred off-island.

The scene seemed kind of out of place to me. One thing I thought of was maybe Jack was talking about the 2004 world series and Frank was talking about the 2007 world series (the Red Sox won both). I am not sure how it fits in with any time theories, but the manner it was brought up out of the blue made me wonder why the subject was brought it to our attention.


Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 20, 2008, 06:41:36 PM
Quote
from the conversation between Frank & Jack about the World Series, we learn only one World Series has occurred off-island.

The scene seemed kind of out of place to me. One thing I thought of was maybe Jack was talking about the 2004 world series and Frank was talking about the 2007 world series (the Red Sox won both). I am not sure how it fits in with any time theories, but the manner it was brought up out of the blue made me wonder why the subject was brought it to our attention.

reading too far into it, we havent hit 2007 at all, probably not even in the flashforwards, we've speculated that Jack (at the airport) is in 2007 due to the Razr phone and cars in the background, but nothing concrete yet, not only that, but i dont think this episode was even filmed by the time the Red Sux won the last one

the reason the made it a point to show us this, was

#1 to show that ben was not lying to jack
#2 to give us a timeline (jack said its been 100days since he saw a game)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: E-Rich on February 20, 2008, 06:50:54 PM
Quote
from the conversation between Frank & Jack about the World Series, we learn only one World Series has occurred off-island.

The scene seemed kind of out of place to me. One thing I thought of was maybe Jack was talking about the 2004 world series and Frank was talking about the 2007 world series (the Red Sox won both). I am not sure how it fits in with any time theories, but the manner it was brought up out of the blue made me wonder why the subject was brought it to our attention.

reading too far into it, we havent hit 2007 at all, probably not even in the flashforwards, we've speculated that Jack (at the airport) is in 2007 due to the Razr phone and cars in the background, but nothing concrete yet, not only that, but i dont think this episode was even filmed by the time the Red Sux won the last one

the reason the made it a point to show us this, was

#1 to show that ben was not lying to jack
#2 to give us a timeline (jack said its been 100days since he saw a game)

Can anyone get a screencap of jack on his phone?  I am still not convinced that it is a 2007 Crzr and could possibly be a 2004 or 2005 rzr.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 07:28:23 PM
Quote
from the conversation between Frank & Jack about the World Series, we learn only one World Series has occurred off-island.

The scene seemed kind of out of place to me. One thing I thought of was maybe Jack was talking about the 2004 world series and Frank was talking about the 2007 world series (the Red Sox won both). I am not sure how it fits in with any time theories, but the manner it was brought up out of the blue made me wonder why the subject was brought it to our attention.

reading too far into it, we havent hit 2007 at all, probably not even in the flashforwards, we've speculated that Jack (at the airport) is in 2007 due to the Razr phone and cars in the background, but nothing concrete yet, not only that, but i dont think this episode was even filmed by the time the Red Sux won the last one

the reason the made it a point to show us this, was

#1 to show that ben was not lying to jack
#2 to give us a timeline (jack said its been 100days since he saw a game)

I'm glad you tackled the twin Red Sox wins potential wrinkle, cbw.  I hadn't thought about how this ep was likely shot before the '07 World Series was even played. So, it can only refer to the '04 Series.  I agree that the conversation, at first blush, was to establish the timeline, which also shows that time flows at the same rate (or nearly so) both on & off the island.  But on a deeper level, that, tho enigmatic, Ben is capable of making truthful statements when the situation warrants.  One must therefore be astute when dealing with him, to cull the useful information from the deceptions.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 20, 2008, 08:07:27 PM
I thought this thread was about the missile and time.
But, dammit, the thread is about time travel and I want someone to ponder my post about Narnia and nose-cams!!!

I agree and think the real world is a static 31 min ahead of the island time, not a proportional 28sec=31min= 100 world series sort of way but just a constant 31 min faster.

We know the show likes to borrow ideas from other sources, So to me they borrowed talking through time from the movie Frequency. Its a movie in which strong solar flares cause northen lights in NY and lets a man talk to his dead father some years in the past over ham radio waves.

So in short the real time talking is actually talking through time. Danial is talking to Regina who is 31 minutes in the future. She fires the missile in what seems like real time to Danial, and tracks it in. Danial has to wait a 31 min elapse of time before Regina fires it.

Now if there was a camera on the nose that fed video to Danial in flight, I think he would watch the the missile in flight as reported from Regina until it hit the bubble, at which point it would look to be paused until island time caught up with boat time. Then it would resume playback.

During the flight Regina would report it all the way in in the 28 seconds.

If there was a little man on board he would pass through with no problems and experiance a 28 second flight.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 20, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
First, I think this is why one must enter or leave The Island along precise coordinates:

(http://www.magnetic-shield.com/images/dynamics/flux-images.jpg)
Agree.  If you don't then you have to go all the way around and come in from the back door
You wanna go with the flow here, not against the waves.
Would depend upon your "charge"

Second, I think the important thing to note about the real-time communication off Island vs delayed time rocketry is this:

- When Faraday made the call, it's not as if he said "it's now X:XX o'clock...synchronize watches."  We don't know what time it was on the boat.
Their radio transmissions appear uneffected by the field and thus there is not thirty minute lag between each of their responses.  Imaging communicating with a satellite at Jupiter.  You can send as fast as you want and, when a signal comes in, it comes in as if next door.  But, try sticking a human on the satellite and have a conversation.  Hello is followed  6 hours later by "whas up."  Then, you say "not much, u," and you wait six hours to hear "chillin."
- 30 minutes went by before he saw what she saw in 30 seconds.  The difference in time is not necessarily a direct ratio or logarithmic or anything else that could be easily calculated.

Most importantly, imagine if the rocket had a camera in the nose:

- We've seen that video communications were real-time also (Penny/Charlie) so let's say Faraday is watching the feed from the rocket-cam.
- For ease, let's say that it's 4:00 on Faraday's watch and we don't know what time it is on the boat (doesn't matter for this example)
- He's told that the rocket-cam just launches, and he looks at his monitor and sees it lift off towards The Island.
- According to the boat, the rocket flight lasted only ~30 seconds.
- Either Faraday watches a video running in super-slow-motion that takes 30 minutes to land at his feet, OR...
Now this is an interesting thought experiment.  We would assume, by relativity, that whatever effected the rocket, requiring it to take thiry minutes to land instead of thirty seconds, would also effect the video recording mechanism.  In this mode, when the rocket crossed the warping of space time and you viewed the recording.....it would not be in super slow motion (as the "tape" was running super slowly during it's flight....the video would look normal and would last thirty seconds.

Of course, what throws this off is the fact that the timer on the rocket is frame shifted (the term I would use) thirty something minutes.

Faraday can see into the future through the rocket.  He watches a flight that takes 30 seconds on his monitor and sees the image of it hitting the feet of a future-him with a watch that reads 4:30.  Neither the rocket nor Faraday travels time, but the communication between the rocket and Faraday shows a man who can peer into the future and a rocket which can see into the past.  If a tiny man was on board that rocket in constant communication with Faraday, he would hear "where are you? I don't see you!" throughout the flight from a Faraday who is 30 minutes back in time.

Now, here, you've changed the thought experiment to include this frame shift.  But, if the rocket flew into the future by a certain time it did so through a gradual process.  I think that what we have been calling times are actually stopwatches.  So, the rocket took three hours to reach Daniel.  Now, time travel is great as long as it doesn't take you time to do it.  I am currently hoping to time travel to 2050...but It's going to take me another 42 years.  In any event, I am trying to picture what the tiny man on the rocket would have seen.  Because the clock on the rocket is running, and either 31 minutes (clock) or 3:15 (if it's a timer) have elapsed, we know that the trip took some time.  The little man would have been pretty bored, but WHERE was he?  Was he surrounded by the world or shrouded in some sort of haze?  Further, how was he staying aloft....the engine would quickly burn out?  Well, you say, the engine was frozen in time.  But, in that case, the little guy was too (and so was the clock).  

The only answer is that the time barrier frame shifts whatever passes it as if it passed it later or earlier and, in that way, clocks are changed.  But, that will beg the question, what happens if a person crosses the barrier....is the interval jumped (like the adam sandler movie "Click") real but just not experienced?

I think that what we have here is a theatrical tool that is playing loose with the science.  The Lost people had to reference time travel but also have the people talk to the boat.  At some point they will say that only solid objects....significant mass....are effected by the time field.

But, going back to what the little guy, let's call him Earl (or CB) would be experiencing (besides a lot of g's),  in a frame shift model with some time field, he would have to understand the field, cross it, and then change his watch based on the distortion caused by the field.  The clock would not know to change on it's own.  In a strict relativity model, Earl CB could communicate for 25 seconds and, unless he was travelling at warp 100 and over 10 to the 46th light years distance, there wouldn't be a huge distortion with Earl's twin who had been on the island for 25 seconds.  Further, Earl CB's communication would sound normal to a ground receiver during that time, but would be picked up at a subtley different frequency.

I guess what I am concluding is that Earl is a prop for the authors to show that time can be screwed with on the island (and possibly off).

What is most strange is that the authors chose to show that MORE time had elapsed on the rocked and not less.  I think they did this so that all us physicists wouldn't go debating applications of relativity but would, instead, be befuddled.  (By relativity, objects moving quickly should have a clock that moves slower).


When the children entered the wardrobe, they didn't travel in time.  When they came out, time had gone by much slower in the real world than they expected, based on their time spent in Narnia.  I'd say that a similar experiment would show a time distortion between a missile fired through the wardrobe and a clock held by someone on either side.
Agree somewhat, but the wardrobe in this model is not the island, but the time field.  Why did the rockets clock have more time elapsed?  WHERE was it during the interval?

I don't like that they did it this way but, with the rocket's ballistics and the clocks, they meant to confuse us.  It doesn't fit relativity or any other thought experiment unless the time barrier is an actual place that can be experienced in an absolute way.  Relativity is out the door.


Oh, and for the polar bear...there's nothing to imply that the thing was teleported.  Deterritorialization of Ursus Maritimus was the stated goal.  They could do that with a tranq and a sub.


Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 20, 2008, 08:37:10 PM
yeah. I need an explanation of how the polar bear was found in a Cretaceous fossil bed, if not be time travel.  And the likelihood that time travel is possible, but that nothing living can survive it.

it was teleported, Orchid Video, bunnies etc


Did I miss the episode with this video??
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 11:28:48 PM
Did I miss the episode with this video??

It was released last summer. You can find it on youtube.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 11:30:12 PM
We'll have to designate Footballmom's husband the resident SWLS house physicist. I appreciate the discussion on how, if relativity were in play, then the rocket's timer should have been behind that of the timer on the island.  That would've meshed with the popularized notion of the astronaut returning to Earth after a long, near-light speed journey, only to find his children were now senior citizens, or human civilization had come & gone. As it stands, the more plausible explanation is a time shift at the barrier around the island.

A comparable case from sci-fi is from the movie Contact.  Jodie was in the capsule, which was dropped through the whirly-contraption that essentially created a wormhole. From an external observer's viewpoint, the capsule accelerated normally, at 9.8 m/sē, until striking the water.  Within the capsule, however, Jodie was wisked away to a fantasy beach to chat with David Morse.  No one outside the capsule believed that 18 hours had passed, except James Woods & Angela Basset, who redacted the fact that Jodie's video headset had run for 18 hours during the test.  Suffice it to say, TPTB @ Lost, as Ricky Ricardo might say, will have sum explain' to do...

I've been considering all the hoops that the Boaties have gone thru to tune their sat. phones to the right frequency to communicate with the boat.  It may be sort of like the difference between short frequency gamma rays moving right through an atom unimpeded, versus the longer frequency visible spectrum 'too large' to penetrate a physical object.  Perhaps in establishing the right frequency, the Boaties are in fact essentially lengthening the frequency until their signals can 'hit' the island.  This might explain why, typically, the island is hidden, as it exists at a different frequency such that normal signals, means of transportation, etc. pass right through the island or its airspace, oblivious to its presence. 

Hitting the right bearing, when moving to & from the island, is thus an analogue for hitting the exact frequency of the barrier.  Like penetrating a starship's shields in Star Trek.  But it's clear that there is a time distortion not typical to the Star Trek canon.  Perhaps the usual rules of physics are different within the barrier.  If time jumps, gravity might be greater.  The greater gravity could exert greater atmospheric pressure within the air column within/above the barrier.  A steep pressure gradient is what causes severe weather & turbulence, a running theme with all the plane, chopper, balloon crashes. Why did Flight 815 crash? Because these particular passengers, maneuvered onto that flight by the Mrs. Hawkings/Jacobs of the universe, together generated a harmonic frequency that could penetrate the island.  Tho Frank, not Seth, was supposed to be flying the plane, they still were within the frequency range required to penetrate the island. Still, Seth had to be dispatched by Smokie, and Frank brought to the island by other means.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LouE68 on February 20, 2008, 11:33:02 PM
TPTB said time shift if that makes a difference
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 20, 2008, 11:37:31 PM
TPTB said time shift if that makes a difference
Which could be explained with one of several pseudo-sciencey explanations, and have several pseudo-sciencey effects. Ergo, TPTB are teasing us.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LouE68 on February 20, 2008, 11:43:34 PM
TPTB said time shift if that makes a difference
Which could be explained with one of several pseudo-sciencey explanations, and have several pseudo-sciencey effects. Ergo, TPTB are teasing us.
it beats a temporal distortion....thats on another series
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 21, 2008, 12:05:07 AM
We'll have to designate Footballmom's husband the resident SWLS house physicist. I appreciate the discussion on how, if relativity were in play, then the rocket's timer should have been behind that of the timer on the island.  That would've meshed with the popularized notion of the astronaut returning to Earth after a long, near-light speed journey, only to find his children were now senior citizens, or human civilization had come & gone. As it stands, the more plausible explanation is a time shift at the barrier around the island.

A comparable case from sci-fi is from the movie Contact.  Jodie was in the capsule, which was dropped through the whirly-contraption that essentially created a wormhole. From an external observer's viewpoint, the capsule accelerated normally, at 9.8 m/sē, until striking the water.  Within the capsule, however, Jodie was wisked away to a fantasy beach to chat with David Morse.  No one outside the capsule believed that 18 hours had passed, except James Woods & Angela Basset, who redacted the fact that Jodie's video headset had run for 18 hours during the test.  Suffice it to say, TPTB @ Lost, as Ricky Ricardo might say, will have sum explain' to do...

I've been considering all the hoops that the Boaties have gone thru to tune their sat. phones to the right frequency to communicate with the boat.  It may be sort of like the difference between short frequency gamma rays moving right through an atom unimpeded, versus the longer frequency visible spectrum 'too large' to penetrate a physical object.  Perhaps in establishing the right frequency, the Boaties are in fact essentially lengthening the frequency until their signals can 'hit' the island.  This might explain why, typically, the island is hidden, as it exists at a different frequency such that normal signals, means of transportation, etc. pass right through the island or its airspace, oblivious to its presence. 

Hitting the right bearing, when moving to & from the island, is thus an analogue for hitting the exact frequency of the barrier.  Like penetrating a starship's shields in Star Trek.  But it's clear that there is a time distortion not typical to the Star Trek canon.  Perhaps the usual rules of physics are different within the barrier.  If time jumps, gravity might be greater.  The greater gravity could exert greater atmospheric pressure within the air column within/above the barrier.  A steep pressure gradient is what causes severe weather & turbulence, a running theme with all the plane, chopper, balloon crashes. Why did Flight 815 crash? Because these particular passengers, maneuvered onto that flight by the Mrs. Hawkings/Jacobs of the universe, together generated a harmonic frequency that could penetrate the island.  Tho Frank, not Seth, was supposed to be flying the plane, they still were within the frequency range required to penetrate the island. Still, Seth had to be dispatched by Smokie, and Frank brought to the island by other means.


Muchas buenas. ;)

Last year, there was the reference to two superheros....when Hurley and Charlie were walking through the woods....that was the key to the field.  Superman could slam through a wall while the other guy could vibrate through it.

The rocket was superman....but encountered a frame shift in time....

The sat electromagnetic waves are the other guy....and "vibrate" through with no time interference.

The question remains....if the rocket's clock continued to click, then where was it during the 31 minutes elapsed.  If anyone can postulate a thought experiment to crack that one, I'm somewhat stumped.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 21, 2008, 12:19:12 AM
TPTB said time shift if that makes a difference
Which could be explained with one of several pseudo-sciencey explanations, and have several pseudo-sciencey effects. Ergo, TPTB are teasing us.
it beats a temporal distortion....thats on another series

You may want to watch the Orchid video.  Go to youtube or use this link:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5tOUrUEZNg

It suggests that a bunny is location and time warped.  That is how the polar bear ended up a fossil in Tunisia.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 21, 2008, 12:24:10 AM
The question remains....if the rocket's clock continued to click, then where was it during the 31 minutes elapsed.  If anyone can postulate a thought experiment to crack that one, I'm somewhat stumped.

As I said before:

We know the show likes to borrow ideas from other sources, So to me they borrowed talking through time from the movie Frequency. Its a movie in which strong solar flares cause northen lights in NY and lets a man talk to his dead father some years in the past over ham radio waves.

So in short the real time talking is actually talking through time. Danial is talking to Regina who is 31 minutes in the future. She fires the missile in what seems like real time to Danial, and tracks it in. Danial has to wait a 31 min elapse of time before Regina fires it.

Now if there was a camera on the nose that fed video to Danial in flight, I think he would watch the the missile in flight as reported from Regina until it hit the bubble, at which point it would look to be paused until island time caught up with boat time. Then it would resume playback.

During the flight Regina would report it all the way in in the 28 seconds.

If there was a little man on board he would pass through with no problems and experiance a 28 second flight.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 21, 2008, 12:28:24 AM
That is how the polar bear ended up a fossil in Tunisia.

Skeptical that it was actually a fossil (see pg. 8 in this thread). More likely Charlotte, the cultural anthropologist, makes for a poor archaeologist.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LouE68 on February 21, 2008, 12:34:24 AM
TPTB said time shift if that makes a difference
Which could be explained with one of several pseudo-sciencey explanations, and have several pseudo-sciencey effects. Ergo, TPTB are teasing us.
it beats a temporal distortion....thats on another series

You may want to watch the Orchid video.  Go to youtube or use this link:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5tOUrUEZNg

It suggests that a bunny is location and time warped.  That is how the polar bear ended up a fossil in Tunisia.
I watched that video when it came out last year...the producers said time shift....even though they were quite the jokesters, I believe they were serious on the term, if the term makes a difference...
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 21, 2008, 12:41:59 AM
The question remains....if the rocket's clock continued to click, then where was it during the 31 minutes elapsed.  If anyone can postulate a thought experiment to crack that one, I'm somewhat stumped.

As I said before:

We know the show likes to borrow ideas from other sources, So to me they borrowed talking through time from the movie Frequency. Its a movie in which strong solar flares cause northen lights in NY and lets a man talk to his dead father some years in the past over ham radio waves.

So in short the real time talking is actually talking through time. Danial is talking to Regina who is 31 minutes in the future. She fires the missile in what seems like real time to Danial, and tracks it in. Danial has to wait a 31 min elapse of time before Regina fires it.

Now if there was a camera on the nose that fed video to Danial in flight, I think he would watch the the missile in flight as reported from Regina until it hit the bubble, at which point it would look to be paused until island time caught up with boat time. Then it would resume playback.

During the flight Regina would report it all the way in in the 28 seconds.

If there was a little man on board he would pass through with no problems and experiance a 28 second flight.

Makes sense from a storyline perspective.  Dan was talking to someone realtime from 30 minutes before.  So, the rocket shot landed in 30 minutes instead of seconds.  If we imagine we are the rocket, the trip only took seconds.  But, why did the timer we had on our hands shift 31 minutes?  Would it, according to your model, suddenly correct and if so why? 

It comes down to, did the clock jump or was the time shift experienced by the traveller?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LouE68 on February 21, 2008, 12:48:30 AM
I dont think you can answer that....it's like trying to imagine things beyond or imagination, becasue we cant grasp the concept...it's like space and the universe...you can have it explained to you...and you can say, yeah i get it, but do you really get it, can you really imagine the far reaches of the universe...so I guess I'm saying experiencing the time shift is probably a negative...
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 21, 2008, 12:58:05 AM
This is assuming that it is not a timer, but a clock. If this is a timer, then I have no ideas.

The only shift in time is the conversation. The RF moves forward and backwards through time. The Missile/traveler leaves 31 minutes after Daniel asked for it, but to the boat he just asked for it. The traveler leaving 31 minutes from the future will experience no delay or distortion.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: LouE68 on February 21, 2008, 01:04:37 AM
The podcast description was digital watch and clock, syncronized with Faradays watch....
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lost Ed on February 21, 2008, 09:09:58 AM
Quote

reading too far into it, we havent hit 2007 at all, probably not even in the flashforwards,

The paper Jack was reading in his bearded, suicidal, hoffs drawler was dated 4/5/07.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 21, 2008, 09:40:58 AM
I'm strongly leaning towards the superman and vibration guy explanation as to why solids get a time effect, but em waves pass.  It's simple.  It's been previously introduced (last season).  And, it allows all of us cynical empiricists to debate science when a comic book held the answer. :)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 21, 2008, 11:40:59 AM
If you want some insight into how the producers are going to handle time, (and they have thought it out along with the paradoxes and "pulling the rug out from under you" of time and alternate realities), read the darlton / doc jansen interview on:

http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/


Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lost Ed on February 21, 2008, 02:00:08 PM
tHAT IS AN EXCELLENT ARTICLE, oops...and I would add that there really isn't much if any spoiler info in it.  But there is a LOT of explantory information and enough to quell wayward theories...making room, of course, for new wayward theories.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 21, 2008, 02:09:11 PM
If you want some insight into how the producers are going to handle time, (and they have thought it out along with the paradoxes and "pulling the rug out from under you" of time and alternate realities), read the darlton / doc jansen interview on:

http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/
Hmm...interesting.  Time travel is certainly what is going on.  How they will handle that (explain it) will be interesting.  No alternate realities - which makes sense once they explain the reasoning behind that.

Also interesting is that Ben's list is tied to the plane at the bottom of the ocean in the trench.  Could it be that whoever is on the list is a survivor of the island plane crash, but (obviously) not the Bali plane crash?  That would create the paradox that they speak of in the interview.  Ben may be trying to kill off the Oceanic 6 -or anyone who knows about the time shift - (since he was unable to keep them trapped on the island in a different space-time) to prevent the paradox.  The paradox being the survivor being both 'dead and alive' in the same world.  COOL!



Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: casino on February 21, 2008, 02:16:59 PM
Forget about the clock times for a second, and just think about the fact that the missile took longer to reach the Island than it should have.

Faraday makes the call and says "Fire the payload," or whatever. Assume that Regina receives the call in however long it usually takes a radio wave to travel the distance between them (miniscule time).   She fires the rocket, which I will assume (possibly incorrectly) is somewhat similar to a Sidewinder missile which has a top speed of somewhere around Mach 2 or 1540 mph.  So, the rocket proceeds toward the Island at 1540 mph.  Somewhere along the way it hits an area of time or spatial distortion.

If the rocket is in fact travelling at 1540 mph, and they estimate it will take 30 seconds to reach the target, then the target is 12 miles from the launch point.  The max. flight time of a Sidewinder missile averages about 40 seconds, over which time it would travel 17 miles, so there's not a huge amount of fuel left in the rocket when it arrives, only 5 miles of range remaining and 10 seconds of flight time.

I didn't capture what sort of delay was experienced by Faraday between the time he expected the rocket to hit and the time it actually hit, but if it was greater than 10 seconds (which it was) then if the rocket was constantly moving and burning fuel at a regular rate through some sort of SPATIAL anomaly that artificially lengthened the distance between the launch point and the Island, the the rocket would have ran out of fuel and fallen out of whatever sky it was in long before it reached him.

So, sometime during it's direct line of flight to the Island, the rocket would have had to slow or stop in space, travelling less distance per time, and the rate of fuel consumption slowed at the same rate.  Both have to occur, because if the rocket's forward progress was simply slowed, as if it was trapped in molasses or straining against increased wind resistance while continuing to burn fuel at the same rate, then after 40 seconds or so the rocket would simply run out of fuel in mid-air.  So, the best way to imagine this is to simply imagine the rocket frozen in space with a frozen jet of flame sticking out the back.  This seems ridiculous but is the ONLY way to explain why, if the satellite phone call was real-time, a rocket fired immediately upon receipt of the call would take longer than 30 seconds to complete a 30 second flight yet still be able to complete it given the available fuel.  Somewhere along the line it's speed and fuel consumption rate had to be physically slowed or stopped.  After that time, it resumed normal velocity until it reached Faraday,or at least it looked like it hit at full velocity.

Now, back to the clock times.  Even if we could imagine a force that would physically slow the rocket while at the same time slow it's fuel consumption, then it in no way explains the differences in the clock times.  The time of day on the clocks would have been the same if the clock had continued running normally while the rocket was slowed or stopped, or earlier than the Island time if it had been slowed or stopped for a length of time in the instance that it was affected by the same force as the one that slowed the fuel consumption rate on the rocket.  Instead, it as AHEAD of the Island clock time.  The two just don't fit together.  To me it seems as if the freighter time had to be ahead of Island time from the very start.

That would lend credence to the theory that time is simply different by 31 minutes on different sides of the "barrier" and that the theory that the radio waves travelling through time into the future has merit.  To explain both the time delay in the rocket reaching the Island AND the difference in the clock times, spatial anomolies are out (fuel burned at a constant rate for a longer distance than expected would result in the rocket not reaching the Island at all), in-flight time warps are out (freighter clock would have been the same or ahead of Island time, not behind it,  if we tried to account for the extended flight time) and all that is left is that the launch time had to be 31 minutes or so later freighter time than Faraday thought.  If the rocket arrived at 3:15 rocket time, it must have been launched around 3:14 freighter time and  in flight for no more than 40 seconds over a distance of no more than 17 miles based on the fuel available, arriving at 2:45 Island time.

If this is the case, then it might explain a couple of other things.  For instance, perhaps since Locke is from off the Island, he is still partially in sync with off-Island time.  Perhaps this means that he can see a certain distance into the future, as seems to be the case when he predicts the end of rainstorms, for the simple reason that for the part of him that is still in sync with off-Island time, the rainstorm ended 31 minutes ago.

  
        


Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lost Ed on February 21, 2008, 02:35:06 PM
T Mack: You may want to read that story again.  They are trying to avoid paradoxes, not start them.

Casino:  Way too much thought there....what we need to know is that time is bizarro between the freighter and the island.  I would rather, if we're going to continue working on the time deal, that we do it with known input as given by the show.

I'm more in thinking that it is a single moment.  Like crossing the international dateline.  Now its today...poof...now its tomorrow...but instead of an imaginary, its real.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: casino on February 21, 2008, 02:50:18 PM
T Mack: You may want to read that story again.  They are trying to avoid paradoxes, not start them.

Casino:  Way too much thought there....what we need to know is that time is bizarro between the freighter and the island.  I would rather, if we're going to continue working on the time deal, that we do it with known input as given by the show.

I'm more in thinking that it is a single moment.  Like crossing the international dateline.  Now its today...poof...now its tomorrow...but instead of an imaginary, its real.

I don't think I really made that many assumptions. Average rocket speed vs. the time that Regina and Faraday seemed to think the rocket would take to reach the Island gives you the 12 mile distance, and the average range of a well-known missile tells us that the rocket couldn't have travelled much further than it did so it didn't fly around in circles for a while before it got there.  I was crossing stuff off the list from what they gave us, ruling out some kind of spatial anomoly.

I agree with you about the timeline thing, which is what I was saying.  No variable time warp or anything like that, just a basic difference in time. 

Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lost Ed on February 21, 2008, 03:07:35 PM
I love shows about time travel...from the quirky tv "Time Tunnel" to something like "Jumper" which I can't wait to see...if it involves time travel...Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Quantum Leap.....I'll watch it.

One thing I've learned.  Each one has their own parameters of how it works.  So, until we see what parameters our lost writers decide upon, there's really no way to get to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 21, 2008, 03:43:39 PM
Quote
author=Lost Ed link=topic=7016.msg353050#msg353050 date=1203618906]
T Mack: You may want to read that story again.  They are trying to avoid paradoxes, not start them.


Umm. Read the post again, that's exactly what I was saying.  Avoiding the paradox by not allowing them to live in the current time in which they are actually dead (on the Ocean floor in that flight 815) could be the real motivation behind Ben's bizzare existence.  It doesn't mean they have to show 2 Sayid's.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 21, 2008, 03:50:04 PM
I'm more in thinking that it is a single moment.  Like crossing the international dateline.  Now its today...poof...now its tomorrow...but instead of an imaginary, its real.
Well, what would be the big story behind that?  That happens in everyday life now, why would anyone want to watch a show about it? The thing I don't get about those who think that there is no time anomalies or that they have no consequence, is that there would be no reason to do a show about them in the first place if that was the case.  The reason they are introducing the time anomalies as a plot device is that they would require some explaining, and the consequences of what those time differences are.

If the time differences are no big deal or don't mean anything, what's the point of having them in the story?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: tonysee200x on February 21, 2008, 03:51:54 PM
Quote
I don't think I really made that many assumptions. Average rocket speed vs. the time that Regina and Faraday seemed to think the rocket would take to reach the Island gives you the 12 mile distance, and the average range of a well-known missile tells us that the rocket couldn't have travelled much further than it did so it didn't fly around in circles for a while before it got there.  I was crossing stuff off the list from what they gave us, ruling out some kind of spatial anomoly.

Yes, but What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: casino on February 21, 2008, 04:11:15 PM
Quote
I don't think I really made that many assumptions. Average rocket speed vs. the time that Regina and Faraday seemed to think the rocket would take to reach the Island gives you the 12 mile distance, and the average range of a well-known missile tells us that the rocket couldn't have travelled much further than it did so it didn't fly around in circles for a while before it got there.  I was crossing stuff off the list from what they gave us, ruling out some kind of spatial anomoly.

Yes, but What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Classic!
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 21, 2008, 04:28:18 PM
Hmm...interesting.  Time travel is certainly what is going on.  How they will handle that (explain it) will be interesting.  No alternate realities - which makes sense once they explain the reasoning behind that.
Yeah, MPUs...a neat theoretical concept, but hell to portray without breeding either confusion, or the question 'So what's the point of it all?'.  I think they have explained some of the reasoning already.  As Mrs. Hawking says, the universe is self-correcting.  You can stray off the path, as Des did with Charlie, but it'll snap you back soon enough.  However, that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms concerning free will...

Also interesting is that Ben's list is tied to the plane at the bottom of the ocean in the trench.  Could it be that whoever is on the list is a survivor of the island plane crash, but (obviously) not the Bali plane crash?  That would create the paradox that they speak of in the interview.  Ben may be trying to kill off the Oceanic 6 -or anyone who knows about the time shift - (since he was unable to keep them trapped on the island in a different space-time) to prevent the paradox.  The paradox being the survivor being both 'dead and alive' in the same world.  COOL!

It's clear from the Sayid flash forward that his targets aren't Losties. Sayid is trying to protect his friends (Oceanic 6 &/or those stuck on the island).  Rather, Ben is going after those beyind the coverup.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: gjohnson on February 21, 2008, 04:30:58 PM
Quote
I don't think I really made that many assumptions. Average rocket speed vs. the time that Regina and Faraday seemed to think the rocket would take to reach the Island gives you the 12 mile distance, and the average range of a well-known missile tells us that the rocket couldn't have travelled much further than it did so it didn't fly around in circles for a while before it got there.  I was crossing stuff off the list from what they gave us, ruling out some kind of spatial anomoly.

Yes, but What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Creflo on February 21, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
I think a big factor that is being missed is the perspective of the observers.

Faraday and the Dropees have already crossed into the snowglobe when the experiments begin, therefor we can presume that whatever is going to have happened to the rocket has happened to them. 

Let's say for convenience that they left the boat at noon and flew for an hour.  They land on The Island and look at their watches which read 1pm.  Already, the effect has begun and if they were to radio back to the boat they would have found out that the boat folks think it's, say, 1:07 or something.  It doesn't matter right now whether the time difference is linear (ex. it's always 15 minutes behind on The Island, which would be boring), or if the gap widens the longer the observer is on The Island (ex, 15 minutes difference after 4 hours of real world time has elapsed...probably the case in Lost), or if the gap is variable which would be even more interesting.

It doesn't matter what the ratio is for now, it's only important to note that the observers have already been affected by it.  As I posted earlier, they didn't do a time check before launch, or they would've seen that Faraday's watch didn't match the time on the boat or in the rocket.  His watch would've read 2:15 or so when he said "fire", because when he's seen checking it later it reads 2:45 and it's been about a half an hour of him waiting around.  When the boat heard him say "fire", their clock read something like 3:15 and the rocket was in the air (from its own perspective) for only 30 seconds.

The rocket wasn't frozen in midair.  It was launched in the future, at least from the perspective of Faraday.  Just because he can communicate from his perspective to the boat in real-time, that doesn't mean that the huge time shift happened while the missile-sperm penetrated some figurative ovum.  Time passes slower on The Island.  We've known this ever since we saw Alpert speaking to boy Ben.

Also, folks seemed to miss the gist of my rocket-cam thought experiment.  I should've said that Faraday could've been watching a monitor with a live feed of the rocket, not a recording after it lands.  Since he can have real-time communication with the boat and since Charlie had a video chat with Penny, surely Faraday on the ground could watch the rocket's nose-view as easily as he go the play-by-play from the boat.  When she told him (at around 2:15 his time, 3:16 her time?) the rocket had landed, he would've been watching a rocket landing which hadn't yet taken place, according to his perspective.


I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 21, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Patience, my friend. lol.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 21, 2008, 04:45:00 PM
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Patience, my friend. lol.

YEAH I'M BEING PATIENT TOO, BECAUSE WHEN HE GETS BACK , HE NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS!!!!

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7175.0;topicseen
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 21, 2008, 04:53:13 PM
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Patience, my friend. lol.

YEAH I'M BEING PATIENT TOO, BECAUSE WHEN HE GETS BACK , HE NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS!!!!

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7175.0;topicseen
Maybe the MPU's are out, but time travel isn't.  If one takes credit for disbelieving the MPU's, then to preserve one"s credibility you must also acknowledge that many were wrong about the time travel as well... (in whatever form they will try to show it in).
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: cbw420 on February 21, 2008, 04:57:18 PM
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Patience, my friend. lol.

YEAH I'M BEING PATIENT TOO, BECAUSE WHEN HE GETS BACK , HE NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS!!!!

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7175.0;topicseen
Maybe the MPU's are out, but time travel isn't.  If one takes credit for disbelieving the MPU's, then to preserve one"s credibility you must also acknowledge that many were wrong about the time travel as well... (in whatever form they will try to show it in).

one acknowledgement at a time my friend, when they show the time travel, i will humbly admit i was wrong, i will stay on the board and continue to post as arrogantly as i had before,

although i am concerned for the puffer at this point (SERIOUSLY), i'm hoping he's ok, its not like him to go thru a whole week between epi's and not post at least one page of material
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: T Mack on February 21, 2008, 05:24:33 PM

Quote
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.

Quote
one acknowledgement at a time my friend, when they show the time travel, i will humbly admit i was wrong, i will stay on the board and continue to post as arrogantly as i had before,
Somehow, I am very sure of this.

Quote
although i am concerned for the puffer at this point (SERIOUSLY), i'm hoping he's ok, its not like him to go thru a whole week between epi's and not post at least one page of material
 
I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.  Methinks his feelings may be hurt.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Fallybear on February 21, 2008, 05:35:13 PM
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Patience, my friend. lol.

YEAH I'M BEING PATIENT TOO, BECAUSE WHEN HE GETS BACK , HE NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS!!!!

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7175.0;topicseen
Maybe the MPU's are out, but time travel isn't.  If one takes credit for disbelieving the MPU's, then to preserve one"s credibility you must also acknowledge that many were wrong about the time travel as well... (in whatever form they will try to show it in).

one acknowledgement at a time my friend, when they show the time travel, i will humbly admit i was wrong, i will stay on the board and continue to post as arrogantly as i had before,

although i am concerned for the puffer at this point (SERIOUSLY), i'm hoping he's ok, its not like him to go thru a whole week between epi's and not post at least one page of material

Somehow I think the Puffer knows we're thinking of him. It has not been the same here since he left. I love the Puff/cbw/Jugdish debates. They're the best on the internet.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: PrincessLeia on February 21, 2008, 05:40:35 PM
I can't believe that Puff hasn't weighed in on this yet.
Patience, my friend. lol.

YEAH I'M BEING PATIENT TOO, BECAUSE WHEN HE GETS BACK , HE NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS!!!!

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=7175.0;topicseen
Maybe the MPU's are out, but time travel isn't.  If one takes credit for disbelieving the MPU's, then to preserve one"s credibility you must also acknowledge that many were wrong about the time travel as well... (in whatever form they will try to show it in).

one acknowledgement at a time my friend, when they show the time travel, i will humbly admit i was wrong, i will stay on the board and continue to post as arrogantly as i had before,

although i am concerned for the puffer at this point (SERIOUSLY), i'm hoping he's ok, its not like him to go thru a whole week between epi's and not post at least one page of material

Somehow I think the Puffer knows we're thinking of him.
I agree with Fallybear. ;)
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 21, 2008, 05:50:10 PM
If you all want to read something good, I've mentioned it before.... :-*

It's a short fabulous book by the guy who created Dilbert.  It's called God's Debris.  It's a thought experiment and it is relevant here.

Once you open the door on any notion of time travel, you have created multiple outcomes and paradoxes.  I think that darlton recognized the confusion that could result and they're going to use this time travel stuff sparingly.  I was always interested in how the others seemed to have incredible skills and was hoping that this was as a result of their time travels or the merger of their multiple selfs.  The latter is a strange thought, but would be like the guy in Highlander getting shocked and then shouting "I know everything."  Anyway, something like that.

But, it's neet to know that these guys did consider the physics and how the many world's hypothesis would play out in story form.  These guys are smart.  

I still wonder how they are going to handle the paradoxes of time.  If Desmond did travel back, did he replace himself or were there two of him?  Did Ring lady travel back to intercept him?  

How do these guys know how to guide the present or pasts if they haven't already seen the bad outcomes if they don't?  You have to know the future in order to go back and manipulate the past.  

Anyway, back to God's Debris.  This kid is debating a very old man about the concept of a Supreme Being.  If one assumes that the Being is all knowing, all powerful, and can see the future, then it already knows everything and already knows all of the decisions it will ever make.  Therefore, such a Being has but one act of free will across infinity.....to continue to exist or to destroy itself.  

This is also the essential paradox of all time travel stories.  Two sides are always fighting.....one who wants an event to occur versus one who doesn't.  Both groups obviously know the repurcussions of the event and thus rely on some prophesy or some spy sent into the future who comes back with the info.  But, which future did the spy look into and who the heck is this prophet dude and how does he know what he knew?

Anyway, similar to Heros....what is the sentinel event, who are the groups, and how do they know what they know? :-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Writers_Strike on February 21, 2008, 05:52:57 PM
I'm strongly leaning towards the superman and vibration guy explanation as to why solids get a time effect, but em waves pass.  It's simple.  It's been previously introduced (last season).  And, it allows all of us cynical empiricists to debate science when a comic book held the answer. :)

Don't forget in season 1 when Hurley and Sayid are on the beach with the radio and Hurley says the radio waves could be "from any time". The producers made sure to put this clip in the recap episode in the beginning of this season. This is why I am leaning towards the talking through time "Frequency" theory.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: Creflo on February 21, 2008, 08:56:54 PM
Quote
...superman and vibration guy...
Are you kidding me?!?  That "vibration guy" happens to be The Flash (aka 'Fastest Man Alive') and he can not only vibrate his molecules so as to pass through objects, but he can also:
- vibrate in such a way as to visit other parallel universes (which was happening in the Walt comic)
- run on a special treadmill which enables time travel in both directions
- tie Superman in a Hurley-rules footrace at least 4 times in the different comics.

The Flash has been my favorite since I was a kid.  The ability to travel time trumps all superpowers.  He was the first Silver Age hero and he introduced the concept of parallel universes in comics.  He was able to meet his Golden Age counterpart (spaghetti-bowl helmet Flash).  He gave his life to save the world in the Crisis on Infinite Earths series.
Title: Re: Missile a time warp?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 21, 2008, 09:24:14 PM
he he he  i'm glad we have specialists of all sorts here!