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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x02 => Topic started by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 12:51:52 AM

Title: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 12:51:52 AM
Serious question.  Did the scenes occur before or after the four reached the island?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Pepsi-Maxx on February 08, 2008, 12:52:33 AM
before
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: AussieDave on February 08, 2008, 12:53:00 AM
Pretty sure they were "before" ie) we were back to flashbacks again for this episode.....
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 12:57:11 AM
On the one hand, Faraday's response to 815's discovery is telling.  He is crying and a woman as why he is so upset....His reply is "I don't know."  If he is being honest, then it could be just that he is a sensitive individual, nuts, or something else.  After he left the island, did he forget the experience and only have it retained in his subconscious (crying without reason).   Did an alternative Faraday get placed in this reality and, like Desmond, only wake up to his memories?  Too many questions occurred at 6 minutes into the show.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Maxor127 on February 08, 2008, 01:28:45 AM
I can definitely see how an argument could be made that they were flash-forwards, but I still think they were flashbacks.  I personally don't think they're going to make it off the island.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: iansomerhalder_luver_06 on February 08, 2008, 02:19:24 AM
Naomi was there, so they had to be flashbacks
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Maxor127 on February 08, 2008, 02:51:13 AM
Naomi was there for one of them.  They could mix flashforwards and flashbacks.  So still possible, I think.  But I still think they were all flashbacks.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Sunflower on February 08, 2008, 03:11:41 AM
I have to say, I am really confused about this.  I was discussing this with khpage and said it could be a fbck because Naomi told Charlay that after the crash they came out with the Greatest Hits of Driveshaft.  She pointed out she could be lying given the circumstances and hence a ffwd.  So can I say flash present parallel timeline?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Desmond8MyPopRocks on February 08, 2008, 03:18:46 AM
I believe Faraday's "I don't know" response to seeing footage of the Oceanic 815 flight being shown on tv was a flashforward--similar to Desmond's experience.  I'm still considering the rest.

makes me shiver cheers
*Des8
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jumbotron on February 08, 2008, 03:19:49 AM
I hadn't thought about this till now... good question!  I would say Naiomi's and Frank's were both definitly flashbacks but Faraday's and Miles' could be either.  My gut tells me they were both FB's though. 

Kate seemed to think Faraday was cute in a geeky kinda way... wonder if he's the him that was wondering where she was in the S3 finale!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: PrincessLeia on February 08, 2008, 03:21:23 AM
Geeks are way underrated. ;)

I believe Faraday's "I don't know" response to seeing footage of the Oceanic 815 flight being shown on tv was a flashforward--similar to Desmond's experience.  I'm still considering the rest.

makes me shiver cheers
*Des8
I can't put my finger on it....but this is pretty much how I feel too.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: ActivityGrrrl on February 08, 2008, 05:45:47 AM
We still think FFs...or we're with Alwayslost's "So can I say flash present parallel timeline?"  We think we've actually seen more new characters than we know, that we're looking at parallels here, so not necessarily the same Naomi, Daniel, etc in both places.  And as puff6962 said, "Did an alternative Faraday get placed in this reality and, like Desmond, only wake up to his memories?" - that's what we keep going back to, too.  Confusing as hell, but we love it! 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Maxor127 on February 08, 2008, 06:17:55 AM
Well... if all of those are flashbacks, then Naomi wouldn't have known about those four until Oceanic was found and the team was put together, therefore the Driveshaft Greatest Hits would've come out by then too.  So that scene at least is a flashback no matter how you look at it, just probably a very recent one.  No need to make things even more complicated with flashpresents.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Ladybug on February 08, 2008, 11:01:32 AM
i honestly think they are flashbacks, BUT, well, i don't know.  i guess they COULD be flashforwards. 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 11:15:38 AM
THey were flashbacks. Showing us how and why(sort of) of why they were on the boat and interested in the mission. Naomi was in them and she is dead now, she told the same story about the plane being found. So they happened before they got to the island.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 08, 2008, 11:17:52 AM
Quote
On the one hand, Faraday's response to 815's discovery is telling.

Timeline:

1. Fake wreckage found -> 2.  Faraday hears it on the radio -> 3. "Rescue" mission put together -> 4. Naomi drops in and tells Losties the plane was found.

No way did Faraday go to The Island and THEN get back in time to hear the news about the Sunda Trench find.


It is interesting that he doesn't know why the news upsets him.  He may just not want to discuss it with the person in the car.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: magpie on February 08, 2008, 12:35:24 PM
I think I read in an interview that  old characters would have flashforwards, and new characters would have flashbacks.  Keeping that in mind made watching last night's episode alot less confusing
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 12:39:22 PM
THey were flashbacks. Showing us how and why(sort of) of why they were on the boat and interested in the mission. Naomi was in them and she is dead now, she told the same story about the plane being found. So they happened before they got to the island.

yes very true

not to mention the USA Article saying new characters would have flashbacks to get us up to par on their background and old characters would have flashforwards to confuse us more LOL, actually it said the old characters would have flash forwards in order to tie the story together
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Ladybug on February 08, 2008, 01:28:29 PM
thanks that solidifies my gut feeling that it was flashbacks. 

a solified gut does not sound like a good thing, but it is.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 01:31:58 PM
thanks that solidifies my gut feeling that it was flashbacks. 

a solified gut does not sound like a good thing, but it is.

i have to somehow figure out how to get the USA Today article online, it was from the actual paper (didnt know they made them still lol)

but it said that since they now have an end date, alot of our questions will be answered via Flashforwards/Flashbacks
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 08, 2008, 01:42:21 PM
Geeks are way underrated. ;)


Of course someone with 12000+ posts would feel this way!   :D
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 08, 2008, 01:52:45 PM
Faraday may be reliving the time leading up to his going on the mission and his subconscious remembers it (much like Desmond's episode).  We can't rule this out.

Or the site of the plane touched him for some reason and we'll see later on that this played a part in his deciding to go on the mission even though he is usually very timid and would not normally do something this adventurous.

I agree with Naomi, where did they get these guys?  Could they be linked somehow to our Losties like everyone else and destined to be a part of this?  For me, that's the biggest mystery so far!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 02:35:53 PM
Faraday may be reliving the time leading up to his going on the mission and his subconscious remembers it (much like Desmond's episode).  We can't rule this out.

Or the site of the plane touched him for some reason and we'll see later on that this played a part in his deciding to go on the mission even though he is usually very timid and would not normally do something this adventurous.

I agree with Naomi, where did they get these guys?  Could they be linked somehow to our Losties like everyone else and destined to be a part of this?  For me, that's the biggest mystery so far!

or being a physicist he knew that the plane would never have crashed like that and knew it was a coverup
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Blackrock Bob on February 08, 2008, 03:11:57 PM
or being a physicist he knew that the plane would never have crashed like that and knew it was a coverup

I agree, but maybe he was a little more connected than we saw. Maybe he knew one person on the plane, or he posted on message boards that 815 had survivors.  ;)
Jacklives815... could have been his name. I'm just saying....
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 03:51:23 PM
I think the four people were chosen because of their talents and their intrests in 815 and/or dharma. That is what the flashbacks were showing us.

Dan was moved to tears by the disaster and you used his genius to investigate. He asks questions, does studies. Gets noticed.

Miles was shown listening to the coverage, he can talk to dead people. Who better to send to a place to find forgotten crash victims and an island that has dead people come back and confront people (through smokie)

Charllote is chasing dharma related clues around the world. She is knowledgable and interested in the crash, (showed her obsession by the comment it is the same outcome no matter how many languages you read it in)

Pilot guy is so obsessed he is calling the hot line. He gets through to the supervisors.

So some organinzation has information that the crash that was found is not what really happen. They have knowledge of the island, Dharma history and what went on with Ben. (It appears to me Ben is off island when in that picture) He screws them over, they decide to find him through mysterious missing people, Desmond and the 815 survivors. They get their crack team together a physicist, a archeologist, guy who talks to dead people and a crack pilot. All interested in going because they are promised answers of what happened to 815. They set off with the military support (Naomi) and set off to get Ben, and to solve their own curiostiy.

Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 04:05:31 PM
I think the four people were chosen because of their talents and their intrests in 815 and/or dharma. That is what the flashbacks were showing us.

Dan was moved to tears by the disaster and you used his genius to investigate. He asks questions, does studies. Gets noticed.

Miles was shown listening to the coverage, he can talk to dead people. Who better to send to a place to find forgotten crash victims and an island that has dead people come back and confront people (through smokie)

Charllote is chasing dharma related clues around the world. She is knowledgable and interested in the crash, (showed her obsession by the comment it is the same outcome no matter how many languages you read it in)

Pilot guy is so obsessed he is calling the hot line. He gets through to the supervisors.

So some organinzation has information that the crash that was found is not what really happen. They have knowledge of the island, Dharma history and what went on with Ben. (It appears to me Ben is off island when in that picture) He screws them over, they decide to find him through mysterious missing people, Desmond and the 815 survivors. They get their crack team together a physicist, a archeologist, guy who talks to dead people and a crack pilot. All interested in going because they are promised answers of what happened to 815. They set off with the military support (Naomi) and set off to get Ben, and to solve their own curiostiy.



i like this,

but i dont think ben was off the island when that pic was taken, it could very well have been taken on the island (pre-purge), in a DHARMA office we have not seen, or when the DHARMA facilities were used more, looked cleaner/newer, or just continously maintained

i dont think Ben has left the island AT ALL.

i think DHARMA is behind this, remember they had means to come and go from the island "pre-purge", so they could have had some people that went off the island while the purge was taking, and post-purge is when Ben started "hiding" the island, so no one could return, and thats how they have the picture on file
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 04:08:55 PM
Little off topic, but I think they are after them for more than the purge. I see a scenerio that Ben went off island to get finacial support for his work. They are heavyily funded by someone. He then went back to the island not to be found again. Either he did not do what he promised or he took funding and left. Just a con artist like Sawyer.

It is just a hunch.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 04:10:27 PM
Little off topic, but I think they are after them for more than the purge. I see a scenerio that Ben went off island to get finacial support for his work. They are heavyily funded by someone. He then went back to the island not to be found again. Either he did not do what he promised or he took funding and left. Just a con artist like Sawyer.

It is just a hunch.

i know i went off topic, i had to do it quick while it was still fresh in my head LOL

check out the other thread  "dream team" juggy
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
We always do, anyways, my point is. They were flashbacks showing how these 4 got involved with the freighter people. Showing their background etc.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: gjohnson on February 08, 2008, 04:30:06 PM
In each of the flashBACKS, the Boaties are just finding out about Oceanic being found at the bottom of the sea. Naomi tells the losties that they had been found at the bottom of the sea and all are presumed dead when she landed on the island. So, I think it is pretty clear that we are supposed to view these as flashbacks. Not to say we aren't being intentionally misled  :)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: versed4every1 on February 08, 2008, 04:58:11 PM
I think it was a flashback.  As for the tears, remember Namoi called Faraday a "head case", not a genius.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 08, 2008, 05:51:48 PM
Did anyone notice that they didnt show who Faraday was with.  I find this kind of odd that they did not show her face.  I think it will be somebody that we have seen before.  If it was just some random person i think they would have just showed us who.  Unless of course it is someone that they repeatedly use as an extra and dont want to confuse by having her appear in different places, and not really mean anything to the story.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: CastawayCayley on February 08, 2008, 06:00:39 PM
Did anyone notice that they didnt show who Faraday was with.  I find this kind of odd that they did not show her face.  I think it will be somebody that we have seen before.  If it was just some random person i think they would have just showed us who.  Unless of course it is someone that they repeatedly use as an extra and dont want to confuse by having her appear in different places, and not really mean anything to the story.

I saw this as a story telling device. If they just show a man watching a news report of the discovery of the wreckage of a downed plane and sobbing about it, a viewer is likely to presume he knew someone on the flight. You put in a background character asking "Why are you crying?" for exposition purposes, all the while focusing the camera only on the crying man, it tells us that this is unusual behavior and makes us make note of it.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 07:13:47 PM
In each of the flash scenes, we are allowed to see how each of the boaties responded to the news of O 815.

Charlotte refuses to believe it, no matter how many papers it's in.
Miles looks around and in the rear view mirror upon the news.
Frank calls the NTFB to inform them that it is not the plane.
Dan cries without reason.
 
Yet, Naomi, the leader of the boaties, is only expresses the possibility of there being survivors of 815 on the island.

If the scenes were flashbacks:

So, Charlotte should have said to the survivors, "I knew you were here."
Miles....no conclusion.
Daniel...."I'm so glad you're alive"
Frank...."Those bastards at NTFB didn't believe me, but now I've shown them.  Where's my friend Seth Norris?"

But these things were not said.  Therefore, I conclude that the scenes (except Naomi) are flashforwards, the boaties got back, and their memories and/or their realities have changed.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 07:18:45 PM
That is quite a leap there. These four people are on a mission in which they are lying to people. They are not being forthcoming and are keeping secrets from them . Only Charlotte pretended to be surprised, it is very possible she was just pretending. It is also very likely that the people they are working for are not telling them everything.

They were flashbacks introducing us to the characters and giving us a glimpse into there backgrounds.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostandfree on February 08, 2008, 07:41:49 PM
That is quite a leap there. These four people are on a mission in which they are lying to people. They are not being forthcoming and are keeping secrets from them . Only Charlotte pretended to be surprised, it is very possible she was just pretending. It is also very likely that the people they are working for are not telling them everything.

They were flashbacks introducing us to the characters and giving us a glimpse into there backgrounds.

I agree with this.

I think they are flashbacks and that the losties are having flashforwards.  There are no "flash sideways".  That's just too confusing and weird.  And yes, they are all lieing about something.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: versed4every1 on February 08, 2008, 08:06:18 PM
If the scenes were flashbacks:

So, Charlotte should have said to the survivors, "I knew you were here."
Miles....no conclusion.
Daniel...."I'm so glad you're alive"
Frank...."Those bastards at NTFB didn't believe me, but now I've shown them.  Where's my friend Seth Norris?"

But these things were not said.  Therefore, I conclude that the scenes (except Naomi) are flashforwards, the boaties got back, and their memories and/or their realities have changed.

I have to disagree with you.  To me, the flashbacks were our introduction to the "Dream Team" and an insight into the reasons each of them were chosen.  They knew that the 815 survivors were there.  Remember, Frank very innocuously got Juliet to give him her first and last name and then immediately knew she was not on the plane which he had memorized.  Charlotte, also rather innocently asked Hurley how many of them survived - nice to know how many people you are up against, and if Claire had delivered her baby on the island; which she found very interesting.  Miles was very antagonistic when Sayid asked why they were not surprised to see survivors.  Daniel is just too weird to even come up with a good excuse for why they are really there.  (I was not in charge of packing.. please!)  Only Naomi had the insight to stick to her original story in order to gain their trust and get her team on the island.  That was why she was hired. 

I doubt that we would get a flashback for Namoi and flashforwards for everyone else.  It wouldn't make sense.   
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 08:34:37 PM
Everybody disagrees with me.  Last year I predicted that Locke would survive because the bullet passed where his kidney should have been.  Quite a leap.

One question.....why would alcoholic Frank guy participate in a cover up of a plane crash in which he was supposed to be the pilot, his friend actually was, and he feels guilty about?  Answer....He wouldn't.  Yet, he is shown working with a group who care nothing for the survivors and who, if Mr. Abaddon is to be believed, "did not" survive even if they did.

The answer......he wouldn't.

So, he is then shown phoning the NTSB telling them that this is not 815.  So, he is not participating in the cover-up.  Now, you have to ask why people so smart as to get to the island would allow this guy to go with them.  If they knew that he was to be the pilot of 815, they certainly wouldn't expect him to keep his mouth shut about seeing survivors (and we know that survivors were considered prior to the mission). 

The plausible explanations evaporate when you see his behavior towards Juliet....he doesn't care about the losties, only a native. 

So, why then is he concerned about the history of 815 after the news flash?

Maybe he was chosen because he suspected that 815 had been a cover up and his phone call got him recruited.  But that doesn't explain his nonchalance towards the losties.

Next, he might have placed the call as part of the operation to shift focus to the cover up by the "other side."

And, he might be placing the call after he got back from the mission because he is now in Desmond land (alternate reality) and a flash forward.

Finally, he might have a wet brain from drinking so much.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: versed4every1 on February 08, 2008, 09:03:15 PM
I still disagree.  First of all, we don't know the situation that brought about the change in pilot that day - IF we are speculating, it could have very well been something like his friend, Seth, reporting him for being drunk on duty resulting in Frank losing his job.  Just because he knew that Seth always wore a wedding ring doesn't mean that he was still the guy's best friend.  His phone call to NTSB is what makes me believe it was PRIOR to his trip to the island.  I think he was recruited because of the call and his connection to the flight AND the fact that he is a drunk.  Maybe he was promised his life back- who knows.  Greed is a powerful motivator.

It is interesting though that the very things that make me see it as a flashback, make you see it as a flash-forward. 

 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 10:06:59 PM
Puff once again it is ok that we disagree. I fundamentatally disagree that all of these people are living separate timelives, doing their own "Desmond". Again I am not saying that the four people are part of the cover up. I have said the opposite of that. Their interest in the 815 crash is what brought them to the attention of "the evil corporation". The 4 people do not know all of the "evil corporation" true motive. I believe the 4 are told by the EC that we might know something about 815 crash, they peak their interest with some information about this weird island, you just have to help us find this Ben guy. You get your answers your curiosity and we get Ben. The 4 do not have the whole story.

That is my belief.

And not everyone disagrees with you, there are a lot of people around here saying the same thing.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 10:16:57 PM
He is behaving in diametrically opposed fashions.  

The only thing that would explain the strange behaviors of the boaties (except Naomi) would be for their actions to have occurred after they have left the island (notice I don't say the future).

They, like Jack and Hurley, have been thrust into Desmondland by the mechanism that got them off of the island.  When they go back, memories of the island (and possibly of their pre-island reality) are coming back piecemeal.  That is why Miles just looks around (no recollection yet), Dan cries without knowing the reason (early return), and Charlotte/Frank express disbelief when given the news of 815.

In seasons one through three, the flashbacks gradually captured the characters letting us know why they were who they were.  These clips were much different and were similar to last week's Hurley FF (flashforward).  They were quick, focused on 815 (why?), and showed no interconnection to the characters (as is often seen with FB's).

Season three's climax, last week, and this week's shows have left me each time wondering whether the world these guys came back to was the same as that they left.  I think this applies to the scenes (FF's) of the boaties as well and, therefore, I believe that the mechanism that got them off of the island has sent them all back to an alternate reality.  The boaties went back through the same mechanism and are therefore getting the same Desmondland treatment.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 10:22:30 PM
We are going to have to agree to disagree. To me your theory is baffling. Naomi told them that the plane was found in the trench, they are with naomi and they show them finding out the same information. So it has to be a flashback. Nothing personal, just a difference of opinion. We could go around like this for the next three years neither convincing the other. I will not buy your theory until it is on the show. It is just to far out there for me.

So once again, time will tell.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostAndSeek on February 08, 2008, 11:00:00 PM
In each of the flashBACKS, the Boaties are just finding out about Oceanic being found at the bottom of the sea. Naomi tells the losties that they had been found at the bottom of the sea and all are presumed dead when she landed on the island. So, I think it is pretty clear that we are supposed to view these as flashbacks. Not to say we aren't being intentionally misled  :)

I agree completely. We're seeing these people the day they found out that 815 was supposedly found. And unless we're being misled that's in the past.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 08, 2008, 11:25:45 PM
Everybody disagrees with me.  Last year I predicted that Locke would survive because the bullet passed where his kidney should have been.  Quite a leap.

Exhibit A:
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=5002.msg246953#msg246953
xrayeck first(?) proposes the missing kidney saved him

Exhibit B:
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=5042.msg249587#msg249587
Tech In proposes same.  Are you shooting him down with "if you're shot from the front, it's very difficult to get to the kidney without damaging the stuff in front of it."

I'm not trying to take away your claim to an accurate prediction.  In fact, the reason I searched this out is that I coulda' sworn I had put the same theory in "print" early on, and I wanted to toot my horn for having called it back when he got shot.  Alas, I only told a couple of folks irl.



As for your point about the behavior of the Dropees as they are hearing the news about the plane...

It seems much more likely that the reason we are being presented with the 4 flashba-...er, character studies beginning as they do with the person getting the news IS <draws breath> that it goes towards their motivation for joining the team.

The pilot's is the easiest.  He is upset by the cover story he KNOWS to be false.  He is put on the team because his obvious skill is useful and because if he is lost to The Island, that's one less loose thread to be tied up.

C.S. lewis is the next easiest to divine.  She is a student of DHARMA, etc and has been nosing around.  She, too, smells the B.S. and, again, will either join in the conspiracy because her life's work can be realized better on The Island than anywhere else.  Again, if she is lost, one less loose thread.  However, she's probably DHARMA-related in some way, like a child of, etc.

Faraday's motives have not yet been revealed.  I'm not convinced that he's not simply concealing his reason for sadness from the as-yet-unrevealed paramour.  It's probably no accident that they didn't reveal his reason for crying OR who she is.

Maelstrom's reaction that you describe (looking around after pulling the car up to the ghost house) struck me at the time as nothing more than a quick, paranoid scan of the area to see if he was followed or if a suspicious van is monitoring the location for hucksters.

All four were given a thorough briefing before the mission, surely.  It included how to B.S., stick to your story, and act convincing.  They were probably given individual assignments and any covert op worth its boogeyman is not going to tell the folks each others' mission.   The way each Dropee reacts when found demonstrates their level of B.S.-ability.

Puff, please don't stop speculating with your wild, often unsubstantiated theories.  I never dismiss any of them outright without considering them carefully, even if it means rereading the damn manifestos several times before I catch your drift.  You are one of the most interesting posters and that's what this place is all about!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 08, 2008, 11:49:16 PM
Oh my gawd...flashBACKS!

Naomi in her flashBACK knew that flight 815 crashed on the island. In talking about her mission on the island, she asks the Oceanic guy a couple of times, what if there are survivors? He replies, "There were no survivors of flight 815." I have to conclude from this that the others knew the plane crashed there too. Maybe they weren't expecting survivors, but they knew the plane didn't go down off the coast of indonesia.

So Naomi knows that 815 went down on the island. Charlotte knows too, so she's a little amazed that there are survivors but it explains why she is so skeptical about the newspaper article. She knows about Dharma too. Probably she's connected to Widmore somehow...but more likely Daddy than Penny.

Miles flashBACK purpose seemed to be to show his ghost-communication skill (handy on an island with at least one ghost, maybe many, and where there is a history of people talking to dead people).

Daniel is unstable, so who knows why he was crying? Not because he had already lived his mission and now is reflecting.

Point is, from my perspective, the fluidity of the timeline makes perfect sense if one assumes they were flashbacks, not flash forwards. To justify them being flashforwards takes a stretch. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 09, 2008, 12:02:10 AM
I really dont think that the writers of this show are going to have flash-forwards and flash-backs in the same show.  It would cause to much confusion on everyone involved.

I also dont believe in any of the alternate reality, course correcting mumbo jumbo, that seems to go on, on this site.  It seems like it is just a very easy way to explain everything that goes on. 

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.


Not attacking anyone here just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostandfree on February 09, 2008, 12:36:59 AM
I really dont think that the writers of this show are going to have flash-forwards and flash-backs in the same show.  It would cause to much confusion on everyone involved.

I also dont believe in any of the alternate reality, course correcting mumbo jumbo, that seems to go on, on this site.  It seems like it is just a very easy way to explain everything that goes on. 

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.


Not attacking anyone here just my thoughts.

I absolutely completely agree and I'm glad someone else does too.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 09, 2008, 12:42:31 AM
I really dont think that the writers of this show are going to have flash-forwards and flash-backs in the same show.  It would cause to much confusion on everyone involved.

I also dont believe in any of the alternate reality, course correcting mumbo jumbo, that seems to go on, on this site.  It seems like it is just a very easy way to explain everything that goes on. 

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.


Not attacking anyone here just my thoughts.

I'll let the writers know that they are causing confusion and that, from now on, Lost should be a straight forward family show....like Who's The Boss.  We can put Tony Danza on the island along with a scantily clothed Alicia Milano. 

Mark my words, the boaties and the six got off the island, lost memories, different reality, christian alive in a reality, and multiple realities (use the acronym MPU or whichever one you want).
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 09, 2008, 02:21:22 AM
Puff  why do you take what people are saying as personal attacks.  You can believe what you want, and I can believe what I want.

I just dont think that alternate realties and time correctness and things like that are involved in this show.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2008, 08:45:37 AM
Everyone having alternate realities sounds like an impossible story telling technique. At the end of the show, how are we suppose to know what the heck went on!

And puff, please listen to these posters it is not personal, please do not get defensive, it is just a difference of opinion. I predicted the underwater hatch was true a season before they showed it. That does not mean I am right or wrong on this topic. Just means I was right that time
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostAndSeek on February 09, 2008, 08:47:19 AM
Me neither.... But then I didn't think there were gonna be ghosts either and now it sure looks like there are....
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 09, 2008, 12:44:11 PM
I didn't take anything as an attack.  I was simply being a smartass, that's smart ass.

Many stories involving alternate realities have been successful.  Just ask Mr. Stephen King, or better yet, I will.  I wish I knew him that well.

Anyway, I invite all of you to watch the old twilight zone's, quantum leaps, amazing stories, and etc. (feel free to add more).

In many of these shows, the acting was atrocious, the sets horrific, and the storylines quick and sometimes contrived.  However, it was the zinger that got you and kept you coming back.  Alt realities (see AIRHEAD) is a pretty ideal platform for repeated surprise.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 09, 2008, 12:49:28 PM
I didn't take anything as an attack.  I was simply being a smartass, that's smart ass.

haaaa, i think me and you are more the same then we actually realize LOL

I really dont think that the writers of this show are going to have flash-forwards and flash-backs in the same show.  It would cause to much confusion on everyone involved.

I also dont believe in any of the alternate reality, course correcting mumbo jumbo, that seems to go on, on this site.  It seems like it is just a very easy way to explain everything that goes on. 

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.


Not attacking anyone here just my thoughts.


PREACH ON BROTHA!!!! i'm glad im not alone on this one
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Sunflower on February 09, 2008, 01:18:28 PM
The most logical thing I read was "I really dont think that the writers of this show are going to have flash-forwards and flash-backs in the same show.  It would cause to much confusion on everyone involved."  This makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 09, 2008, 01:52:17 PM
I still think the MPU theory is possible. Flashback or flashforward aside...there is still some evidence to suggest that when they got back, things were...different. Nothing concrete, of course...and suggestions possibly to throw us off course. But Kate was a free woman...Jack did mention his dad (albeit, in a drunken stupor)...and there was Jack's statement "We weren't supposed to leave." Why not "we weren't supposed to leave everyone behind" or "we need to go back and get everyone else?"

Interesting.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 09, 2008, 01:55:59 PM
I agree and think both
"We were not suppose to leave everyone behind and then lie about it"
and "we have to go back and try to get them"
But I don't think they can get back, it looks like Jack has all sorts of maps etc.. trying to locate the island but has had no success.  " travel every Friday night hoping the plane witll crash*
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 09, 2008, 03:51:22 PM
They have to get back...oh my gawd, Lost-Girl, they JUST HAVE TO!!! And I will bawl when they do.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 09, 2008, 04:44:32 PM
If I post a theory for which I have yet to have proof, is that a flash forward?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 09, 2008, 05:51:45 PM
They have to get back...oh my gawd, Lost-Girl, they JUST HAVE TO!!! And I will bawl when they do.
We can sit and bawl together!!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 10, 2008, 08:12:37 PM
The producers said that it is inevitable that the time-bending story of Lost will continue to use looks both backward and forward. "It's absolutely inevitable, not to migrate completely away from flashbacks, but at least to find a new paradigm for storytelling that changed up the nature of the show," Cuse said. "Moving forwards, you'll get a mix. Every week will hopefully be a guessing game as to not just who will be focused on, but when we're focusing on them. Flash-forwards will be a part of season four, yes."
 
Just found this on the sci-fi channel.

It appears that we are supposed to question the timing or the reality of the scenes.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: char1 on February 10, 2008, 10:14:40 PM
Little off topic, but I think they are after them for more than the purge. I see a scenerio that Ben went off island to get finacial support for his work. They are heavyily funded by someone. He then went back to the island not to be found again. Either he did not do what he promised or he took funding and left. Just a con artist like Sawyer.

It is just a hunch.

Oooooh, intriguing good point...Ben conning someone for cash, fitting in with a major theme of the show!  I like this!  This may be the people who came in for Juliette's trial.  They show up every now and again, Ben puts on a good show, like everything is just fine, Heinz ketchup with a Dharma logo keeps dropping from the sky.


I don't think the freighter folks are there to avenge 815, I think it's just that they are aware that the plane may be there, hence they studied the manifest and everything about it so they knew what they were up against. 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: char1 on February 10, 2008, 10:17:20 PM
Did anyone notice that they didnt show who Faraday was with.  I find this kind of odd that they did not show her face.  I think it will be somebody that we have seen before.  If it was just some random person i think they would have just showed us who.  Unless of course it is someone that they repeatedly use as an extra and dont want to confuse by having her appear in different places, and not really mean anything to the story.

I saw this as a story telling device. If they just show a man watching a news report of the discovery of the wreckage of a downed plane and sobbing about it, a viewer is likely to presume he knew someone on the flight. You put in a background character asking "Why are you crying?" for exposition purposes, all the while focusing the camera only on the crying man, it tells us that this is unusual behavior and makes us make note of it.

that's what they wanted you to think!!  LOL ;)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: CurtYanko on February 11, 2008, 10:44:13 AM
enough with the parallel stuff already, way too complicated. During Dan's, the first one I was still thinking flash forward but it became apparent to me they were FB's. I believe there is a clue in each and every scene to indicate the date and place except with Naomi's encounter with Abaddon and that is clearly a FB since is is defining mission.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Sunflower on February 11, 2008, 12:00:27 PM
After rewatching it I think they are all fb's as well.  It was such a trippy episode that it took more than one viewing to digest.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: JMart on February 11, 2008, 12:54:51 PM
^ agreed.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 11, 2008, 01:08:15 PM
How does one account for the food drops?  What was the most recent "dated" food on the drops?  

If light can bend, then "the island" could be in Kansas.  Where are we Vincent

If food drops are made, then how come the losties don't notice the sound of the airplane or helicopter?

Why is all the food still in Dharma packages when A1 steaksauce is now owned by a cigarette company?  Surely the producers turned down some nice little product placement spiffs in order to keep the packages generic.

Getting to the island is doable.  We saw that with Juliet.  But, why the need for drugs on the way?  Is the trip across infinity (as in a Stephen King short story)?  Are memories changed?  Are realities shifted?  Do you have to be asleep along the journey to remain in an equal reality?

The most telling evidence that something is not right can be found in Faraday's crying.  He is now married.  (I didn't see a ring on his finger when he is on the island).  His wife doesn't understand his emotional response so this must not be his norm.  And, he is oblivious to his own connection to 815.

If these were flashbacks, then you have to premise that Faraday is a total nutcase who is emotionally labile.  In that event, when he did find the survivors, he would have been estatic and wouldn't have made the "not our primary objective" statement.  (He would have been balling instead).

What unites three of the four boaties is that they did not believe that the crash of 815, as seen on the television, was true.  

Why would these three people have such a response?  Well, you say, "that is why they were recruited."  But, again, if that were the case, then these three would be estatic and hugging the losties.  Well, you say, they are more concerned with their mission....Ben.  Well, that may be, but how does a little statement such as, "I knew that wreckage was fake," interfere.

Well, it doesn't.  Hence, their behaviors are inconsistent with the scenes off of the island if such scenes are flashbacks.  Ergo, they are behaving irrationally or the scenes are flashforwards.  Since we have not seen gross irrational behavior out of the four, we are left only  to conclude that the scenes are flashforwards and that the writers love to f bomb our minds.  

These guys, along with the Oceanic 6, have had a Desmond like transition.  The Oceanic 6 have obviously gone to a different reality the the boaties, but the ten have made it off the island.

If Charlotte finds a polar bear and Dharma belt in the desert, then she's gonna want to publish.....why participate in the cover-up?

If Frank should have been the pilot of 815....why participate in the cover-up?

If seeing the news of 815 makes Daniel cry.....why be complicit?

Again, the three wouldn't.  In fact, they would fight any cover-up.....and this is what we are seeing in the flashFORWARDS.

Parallel universes, Desmondland, alternate realities....we're already seeing them.  We're not the only ones on this island and we all know it!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostatsea on February 11, 2008, 01:20:38 PM
I think DHARMA is behind this, remember they had means to come and go from the island "pre-purge", so they could have had some people that went off the island while the purge was taking, and post-purge is when Ben started "hiding" the island, so no one could return, and thats how they have the picture on file

Pre purge Ben was a cleaner guy, why would he be dressed to the 70's nines as a janitor? Was there a Dharma Dance night going on? Did a night full of Bingo and square dancing follow?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 11, 2008, 02:18:35 PM
I still say flashback. Puff you are making a lot of assumptions on things we just don't know about yet. Maybe when Charlotte found the polar bear she was already recruited for the mission.

And maybe at least some of the mission team know more than they are saying - I mean, if charlotte found a polar bear buried for presumably a LONG time, with a Dharma collar, and she didn't seem surprised, it isn't a stretch to assume that she knows something...maybe she didn't 'publish' because she's working for someone involved. Remember, she didn't FIND the polar bear, she went to see it.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 02:25:50 PM
How does one account for the food drops?  What was the most recent "dated" food on the drops?  

If light can bend, then "the island" could be in Kansas.  Where are we Vincent

If food drops are made, then how come the losties don't notice the sound of the airplane or helicopter?

Why is all the food still in Dharma packages when A1 steaksauce is now owned by a cigarette company?  Surely the producers turned down some nice little product placement spiffs in order to keep the packages generic.

Getting to the island is doable.  We saw that with Juliet.  But, why the need for drugs on the way?  Is the trip across infinity (as in a Stephen King short story)?  Are memories changed?  Are realities shifted?  Do you have to be asleep along the journey to remain in an equal reality?

The most telling evidence that something is not right can be found in Faraday's crying.  He is now married.  (I didn't see a ring on his finger when he is on the island).  His wife doesn't understand his emotional response so this must not be his norm.  And, he is oblivious to his own connection to 815.

If these were flashbacks, then you have to premise that Faraday is a total nutcase who is emotionally labile.  In that event, when he did find the survivors, he would have been estatic and wouldn't have made the "not our primary objective" statement.  (He would have been balling instead).

What unites three of the four boaties is that they did not believe that the crash of 815, as seen on the television, was true.  

Why would these three people have such a response?  Well, you say, "that is why they were recruited."  But, again, if that were the case, then these three would be estatic and hugging the losties.  Well, you say, they are more concerned with their mission....Ben.  Well, that may be, but how does a little statement such as, "I knew that wreckage was fake," interfere.

Well, it doesn't.  Hence, their behaviors are inconsistent with the scenes off of the island if such scenes are flashbacks.  Ergo, they are behaving irrationally or the scenes are flashforwards.  Since we have not seen gross irrational behavior out of the four, we are left only  to conclude that the scenes are flashforwards and that the writers love to f bomb our minds.  

These guys, along with the Oceanic 6, have had a Desmond like transition.  The Oceanic 6 have obviously gone to a different reality the the boaties, but the ten have made it off the island.

If Charlotte finds a polar bear and Dharma belt in the desert, then she's gonna want to publish.....why participate in the cover-up?

If Frank should have been the pilot of 815....why participate in the cover-up?

If seeing the news of 815 makes Daniel cry.....why be complicit?

Again, the three wouldn't.  In fact, they would fight any cover-up.....and this is what we are seeing in the flashFORWARDS.

Parallel universes, Desmondland, alternate realities....we're already seeing them.  We're not the only ones on this island and we all know it!

FLASHBACKS BRO, and i'll bet my posting ability on it, my existence on this messageboard, if you are so confident my MPU Believing Friend, make the bet, you lose, then you are gone, i lose, then i am gone

dew it!! dew it!!

(this could get exciting!!! LOL)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 02:54:23 PM
I still say flashback. Puff you are making a lot of assumptions on things we just don't know about yet. Maybe when Charlotte found the polar bear she was already recruited for the mission.

And maybe at least some of the mission team know more than they are saying - I mean, if charlotte found a polar bear buried for presumably a LONG time, with a Dharma collar, and she didn't seem surprised, it isn't a stretch to assume that she knows something...maybe she didn't 'publish' because she's working for someone involved. Remember, she didn't FIND the polar bear, she went to see it.

Very good point on the polar bear. She was not surprised she was confirming what she expected.

Cbw420, daring  bet, execpt we might not know until the show is over so it may not be that big of result
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 02:59:31 PM
I still say flashback. Puff you are making a lot of assumptions on things we just don't know about yet. Maybe when Charlotte found the polar bear she was already recruited for the mission.

And maybe at least some of the mission team know more than they are saying - I mean, if charlotte found a polar bear buried for presumably a LONG time, with a Dharma collar, and she didn't seem surprised, it isn't a stretch to assume that she knows something...maybe she didn't 'publish' because she's working for someone involved. Remember, she didn't FIND the polar bear, she went to see it.

Very good point on the polar bear. She was not surprised she was confirming what she expected.

Cbw420, daring  bet, execpt we might not know until the show is over so it may not be that big of result

no one seemed surprised from the group of droppees, at any point before or after landing on the island, the only bit of surprise i saw was when Locke told Charlotte they didnt want to be found LOL

(oh and drunk pilot was surprised when he saw the not-so-actual wreckage on TV)



juggy - daring i know, but i'll stick to it
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 03:00:46 PM
Lets see if Puff will take up the challenge. He is very confident in his views so why wouldn't he?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 03:11:50 PM
Lets see if Puff will take up the challenge. He is very confident in his views so why wouldn't he?

i was contemplating a wager on MPU's, maybe he gives up the internet and i'll do the same LOL LOL LOL
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 11, 2008, 03:45:52 PM
There already has been a parallel reality on Lost so your wager doesn't make sense.  Desmond already made the leap of which I have spoken and yet you question the logic of AIRHEAD.  Infidels!  What for my logic you challenge?  How will I get to 14000 posts and reach posting nirvana like Mr. Jugdish.  Let us see you post a complete description of your ideas, Mr. CBW, explaining everything....everything....along with the reasoning that you applied at each step.  For that matter, let Juggy show us what he has figured out playing critic on this board for so long.  Give us your encompassing theories and let us all see how clever you are.  Post a new topic, each of you, and give us what we've missed.  The show will finally make sense.  Oh bliss, to be a skeptic. 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 03:55:49 PM
You must only read your own posts. My beliefs are all over this place. I do not challenge theories unless I give my point of view with support. I think we both have been very clear were we stand.

Sounds like he is hiding behind rhetoric.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 03:57:26 PM
There already has been a parallel reality on Lost so your wager doesn't make sense.  Desmond already made the leap of which I have spoken and yet you question the logic of AIRHEAD.  Infidels!  What for my logic you challenge?  How will I get to 14000 posts and reach posting nirvana like Mr. Jugdish.  Let us see you post a complete description of your ideas, Mr. CBW, explaining everything....everything....along with the reasoning that you applied at each step.  For that matter, let Juggy show us what he has figured out playing critic on this board for so long.  Give us your encompassing theories and let us all see how clever you are.  Post a new topic, each of you, and give us what we've missed.  The show will finally make sense.  Oh bliss, to be a skeptic. 

calm down killer, i just asked if you wanted to wager on these particular flashes, being flashbacks rather then flashforwards, as i feel they are flashbacks, merely based on this

#1 - our first meeting of the "droppees" so we're getting a QUICK background on them

#2 - them showing the wreckage with the drunken pilot, lets SEE........ Jack & Crew already crashed, so this obviously had to have been taken place BEFORE the droppees landed on the island

#3 - charlotte sees the "crash finding" in a newspaper....refer to #2 for reasoning

#4 - USAToday article clearly stated NO FB's & FF's in the same episode

#5 - Naomi's was CLEARLY a flashback


so again, i ask, do you want to put your money where you mouth is, and wager our SWLS existence, on these being flashBACKS
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: gjohnson on February 11, 2008, 04:05:16 PM
Little off topic, but I think they are after them for more than the purge. I see a scenerio that Ben went off island to get finacial support for his work. They are heavyily funded by someone. He then went back to the island not to be found again. Either he did not do what he promised or he took funding and left. Just a con artist like Sawyer.

It is just a hunch.

Oooooh, intriguing good point...Ben conning someone for cash, fitting in with a major theme of the show!  I like this!  This may be the people who came in for Juliette's trial.  They show up every now and again, Ben puts on a good show, like everything is just fine, Heinz ketchup with a Dharma logo keeps dropping from the sky.


I don't think the freighter folks are there to avenge 815, I think it's just that they are aware that the plane may be there, hence they studied the manifest and everything about it so they knew what they were up against. 

I think it is more likely that Ben is still being supported by some group (food drops and the "man" on the freighter) who is opposed to whomever the boaties work for... My (current) theory (in progress) is that our losties are here to clean up some mess Ben made with the purge. The island (or the universe) is course correcting by using our losties to set right whatever wrongs Ben has done in the past. The Oceanic 6 will have to return to the island to finish the job. Perhaps they will have to be off-island until certain events unfold so they can return to finish the job. Perhaps it is too early to tell who the good-guys are, but I beleive our losties are caught in the middle and are the ones who are destined to make things right.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 04:11:04 PM
Puff once again it is ok that we disagree. I fundamentatally disagree that all of these people are living separate timelives, doing their own "Desmond". Again I am not saying that the four people are part of the cover up. I have said the opposite of that. Their interest in the 815 crash is what brought them to the attention of "the evil corporation". The 4 people do not know all of the "evil corporation" true motive. I believe the 4 are told by the EC that we might know something about 815 crash, they peak their interest with some information about this weird island, you just have to help us find this Ben guy. You get your answers your curiosity and we get Ben. The 4 do not have the whole story.

That is my belief.

And not everyone disagrees with you, there are a lot of people around here saying the same thing.

For puff, just to remind you that I have posted what I believe.

They were flashbacks introducing us to the 4 new characters. They showed why they have an interest in the 815 crash and some of their motivations for getting involved in their current (as we see it on the show) trip to the island.

Any time you need clairification on my stance, I will be happy to explain them. That is how I get those post numbers that you find so impressive.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 11, 2008, 04:16:30 PM
Just to clarify...Des went back in time, which isn't exactly the same as parallel reality. Per se. Might be alternate reality. Not necessarily parallel.

Hey. I have watched enough Star Trek in my day...:-)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 04:18:59 PM
Just to clarify...Des went back in time, which isn't exactly the same as parallel reality. Per se. Might be alternate reality. Not necessarily parallel.

Hey. I have watched enough Star Trek in my day...:-)

im still not sold on him travelling in time, it could be more of a teleportation thing
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 11, 2008, 04:20:06 PM
Can we add a poll to this thread, simple choices, fb, ff, or both?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 04:22:19 PM
Can we add a poll to this thread, simple choices, fb, ff, or both?

if i had a scanner i would scan the article, two actors, one producer have already said no FB & FF in the same episode,
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 11, 2008, 04:24:39 PM
Can we add a poll to this thread, simple choices, fb, ff, or both?

if i had a scanner i would scan the article, two actors, one producer have already said no FB & FF in the same episode,

I know, but some posters refuse to believe what the producers say and have their own opinions so we should have a poll to see how our votes add up.  For me, its all fb's but what do I know, I thought Naomi was surprised to see everyone!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 04:28:01 PM
how about a transcript of the episode?? where it clearly states FLASHBACK??? WILL THAT WORK









Episode 2 - "Confirmed Dead"

Written by: Drew Goddard and Brian K. Vaughan

Directed by: Stephen Williams

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[An underwater camera scours the ocean floor]

MAN 1: Sorry, Ron. Drone's got nothing but seafood at five thousand meters below. You picking up anything with yours?

RON: Zip. Trying to get her a peek over this ridge as soon as I can. Sonar's picking up something now.

MAN 1: Hey you wanna switch feeds?

RON: Roger that.

[The camera switches to another underwater drone]

RON: I'm headed on a baring of about 137 from the co-ordinates we pulled off our guys map. But don't hold your breath.

MAN 1: My thermometer's (?) picking up a hell of a lot of anomalies around here.

RON: Chests full of doubloons?

MAN 1: Keep dreaming, Ron. Let's swing round to the next grid and recalibrate.

[The camera suddenly views the tail of a plane. The plane has the Oceanic logo on it]

MAN 1: Are you getting this?

RON: What, what's up?

MAN 1: Its, its an airplane. Oh my god, its Oceanic 815.

[We then see a shot of the front of the plane, the camera pulls back to show that we are watching a television news report]

NEWSCASTER: This haunting footage comes to us from the Christiane I, a salvage vehicle in the Indian Ocean. For more than two months, its been scouring the depths of the Sunda Trench off Bali, in search of the remains of sunken trading ships. Late last night, the Christiane deployed two remotely operated vehicles, or ROVs, that verified what the National Transportation Safety Board had long feared, that the commercial....

[A man watches the report, and subtitles reveal the location as Essex, Massachusetts. A woman is also present in the room as the man sobs]

WOMAN 1: How do you want your eggs, Dan? So what happened, they find that missing plane? Dan? Dan? Dan, why are you so upset?

DAN: I don't know.

[Cut to a helicopter. Controls are going haywire, a vicious storm is outside]

WOMAN 2: I can't find my vest!

MAN 2: Check under your seat!

WOMAN 2: I already did!

PILOT: Get ready!

MAN 2: Here just take mine!

[He passes her what appears to be a bulletproof vest]

PILOT: Everybody out now!

MAN 2: Hey genius, go!

DAN: No!

MAN 2: Go!

DAN: No!

[Dan falls out of the plane. He releases his parachute and lands on the Island. He removes his kit, hears noises, grabs his gun. Jack and Kate run out]

DAN: Hey there. Are you Jack?

JACK: Yeah, I'm Jack. Who are you?

DAN: I'm Daniel Faraday. I'm here to rescue you.


MAIN CREDITS


[Jack, Kate and Dan walk through the jungle]

JACK: Hey Dan, the chopper, how many of you were on it?

DAN: Er, four including me.

KATE: So what happened to the rest of them?

DAN: Yeah yeah I er, I have no idea, I dunno how many were able to get out before it went down, I just, I jumped and I lost my er, what do you call it, my pack, and my phone was in my pack, if I had my phone I would just er...

KATE: We have a phone.

[Kate and Jack show it to him]

DAN: You have a phone.

[She gives it to him]

DAN: Thank you.

MINKOWSKI: Minkowski.

DAN: Hey, George. It's Daniel.

MINKOWSKI: Dan, the chopper comm went dead, what the hell happened up there?

DAN: Yeah I dunno, George, there was an electrical storm, all the instruments they, I think they went down. But listen I made contact with some of the survivors and we were just er...

MINKOWSKI: Dan, am I on speaker?

DAN: [To Jack and Kate] Would you give me just one sec...

[He steps away and talks to Minkowski privately]

KATE: Don't worry. Naomi covered for us. They don't know what Locke did to her.

JACK: You sure about that?

[Jack motions to Dan. They see he has a gun tucked into his trousers]

DAN: [Returning] Ok, so the boat hasn't heard from anybody else yet but er, their GPS transponders, my team and I are all wearing these, the transponders will send the locations back to the ship, and then the ship will send all locations back into the phones. Er, oh there we are, there's my signal right there, and hopefully we'll get the signals for the rest of the team soon. Will you help me find em?

JACK: Absolutely.

DAN: Ok thank you. Hey, where are the rest of your people?

KATE: Most of them are back at the beach.

DAN: Most of them?

[In the jungle, its day as Locke stands in the rain. Hurley approaches]

HURLEY: Dude. What's wrong with you. You're gonna get struck by lightning.

LOCKE: The storm's about to pass, Hugo.

HURLEY: Its a frigging monsoon, we gotta...

[The rain stops suddenly]

LOCKE: Let's go.

SAWYER: Why are you going East? Thought you said the Barracks were due South.

LOCKE: Because, James, we have to make a little detour first.

SAWYER: Detour to what?

LOCKE: There's a cabin I have to go to.

HURLEY: I think the cabin was back that way.

LOCKE: What did you say Hugo?

HURLEY: I er, thought you were talking about the airplane cabin.

[Locke stares at Hurley. So does Ben]

SAWYER: Why are we wasting our time going to some shack anyway?

LOCKE: Because we're supposed to.

SAWYER: Right. Like you were supposed to throw a knife into that Naomi chick's back.

LOCKE: Ahuh.

SAWYER: You mind telling us who you're getting your orders from, Colonel Kurtz?

LOCKE: I got em from Walt.

[The other survivors look confused]

[At the beach, Sayid watches the ocean]

JULIET: Jack still isn't back. Anything?

SAYID: No. But its a big Island. The freighter could be approaching from the other side.

JULIET: That's the spirit.

SAYID: Juliet, you lived amongst the Others, why would Ben say the people coming here intend to do us harm?

JULIET: Because he's a liar. And he's trying to scare us, that's what Ben does. Or, because the people coming here intend to do us harm. How many guns do you have left?

[They stare at each other]

[In the jungle, Dan is using the satellite phone as a radar looking for other transponder signals. Kate sees a box on the ground]

KATE: Hey. That from your chopper?

DAN: Er, yeah yeah yeah, that er, they had to reduce the weight load when we started going down. I guess that's why they pushed me out.

[Jack pulls out a gas mask from the box]

JACK: What's this for?

DAN: Erm. I'm not in charge of packing so.

JACK: You're not, huh?

DAN: We should er...

JACK: Hey, Daniel. Why did you bring the gun?

DAN: Er, as a precaution.

JACK: Precaution against what?

DAN: Er ok, see, erm, rescuing you and your people. Can't really say its our primary objective.

JACK: Then what is?

[The phone picks up a signal]

DAN: Its Miles, its Miles, come on!

[In the jungle, Locke continues to lead his group]

SAWYER: What the hell do you mean you saw Walt? In a dream?

LOCKE: No dream, it was Walt. Only, taller.

SAWYER: Taller? What like a giant? OK, what exactly did Walt tell you?

LOCKE: He said I had work to do. That I had to stop this woman, Naomi, from bringing the rest of her people here.

SAWYER: What you didn't ask any follow-up questions?

LOCKE: Ben had shot me and left me for dead, Walt saved my life, so I pretty much took him at his word.

SAWYER: He shot you? Yet here you are fit as a fiddle tromping through the jungle.

[Locke shows Sawyer his wound]

LOCKE: The bullet went in one side, came out the other. I'd probably be dead if I still had a kidney there. Anything else?

[Locke walks on]

[Meanwhile, Dan, Jack and Kate are closing in on Miles. They near the shore and see a parachutist]

DAN: Down there. Hey Miles! Miles!

[Jack pulls of his helmet. The man appears unconscious]

KATE: He dead?

[He suddenly springs to life, and holds a gun to Jack]

MILES: Back up handsome.

DAN: Hey, wo wo wo, Miles. Take it easy, its OK. They're here to help us. It's OK Miles, they're just trying to help.

[Kate tries for Dan's gun]

MILES: Hey! Back away from him. Hands where I can see em.

JACK: Kate, its alright, its OK.

MILES: So you're Kate. You wanna tell me where Naomi is?

KATE: What?

MILES: Naomi, the woman you killed. Where is she?

[In flashback, a car pulls up outside a house in Inglewood, California]

CAR RADIO: ...Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all three hundred and twenty-four passengers dead.

[Miles gets out of the car and knocks on the door of the house. A woman answers the door]

MILES: Ms Gardner? I'm Miles Straume. We spoke on the phone earlier.

GARDNER: Oh oh oh, please come in.

MILES: Which room is it?

GARDNER: Its upstairs at the end of the hall.

MILES: I get paid in advance. Two hundred, cash only.

GARDNER: You told me a hundred over...

MILES: That was before my buddy at the police station told me your grandson was murdered. It's gonna be two hundred.

GARDNER: Fine.

[Miles unpacks a case, and builds what appears to be a vacuum cleaner. Ms Gardner gives him the money]

MILES: No matter what you hear, don't come up.

[He heads upstairs to the room. He places the machine on the table and turns it on. He sits in the room, and shivers. He seems to connect with the room]

MILES: You're not doing your grandmother any good staying here, man. You're causing her a lot of pain. I wanna go downstairs and tell her you've gone, but the only way I'm gonna be able to do that is if you tell me where it is. So where is it?

[Something falls by a bookshelf. Behind the furniture, Miles finds money and drugs. He takes the money, and disconnects the machine]

MILES: You can go now.

[He goes back downstairs]

GARDNER: Did it work?

MILES: Yeah. He's at peace now. [Reaches into his pocket] Here, you get a refund, half off. Wasn't as tricky as I thought.

[Ms Gardner hugs him]

GARDNER: Thank you. Thank you.

[Back in realtime, Miles still has a gun to Jack]

DAN: Miles, Miles, hey hey hey, what you doing? What are you doing? These are good people.

MILES: Then why'd Naomi use the damn code? Yeah, you remember when she said tell my sister I love her, well she doesn't have a sister. That's what we're supposed to say if we get captured, have a gun to our heads. Like right now, Jack here would say tell my sister I love her, you get it?

JACK: We didn't kill your friend.

MILES: Then take me to her body.

DAN: Miles, what about Charlotte, what about Frank?

MILES: Take me to Naomi!

KATE: Listen, Naomi was killed but not by us, it was, it was a man by the name of John Locke. He's not with us anymore.

MILES: Kate, seriously, if I have to ask you again...

KATE: Even if I took you to her body you wouldn't know what happened...

MILES: I'll know! Now take me to her body.

[Meanwhile, Locke's group have stopped for a moment in the jungle for a break. Alex and Karl sit near a tied up Ben]

BEN: Alex. Alex, hey.

ALEX: What?

BEN: Something I need to tell you.

KARL: Keep your mouth shut, Mr Linus.

BEN: [Sarcastically] Karl! Now if you're gonna sleep with my daughter, I insist you call me Ben.

[Karl is angered, but Sawyer quickly intervenes]

SAWYER: Easy kid, guy's just trying to get in your head. Go take a walk or something.

[Karl does so, Alex joins him]

BEN: Mind if I ask you a question, James?

SAWYER: Yeah I do.

BEN: Why'd you leave Kate behind?

SAWYER: Wasting your time, Yoda.

BEN: I know its not pleasant but, let's face it, you really don't stand a chance now...

SAWYER: Chance of what?

BEN: James. Look at yourself. Yes, on this Island you're brave, daring, handsome, you're someone, but if you left with them, back in the real-world a low-life scam artist like you could never compete with a first class surgeon. I think Kate was really upset when you made your choice to come with us. Thank god she has Jack there to comfort...

[Sawyer attacks Ben, beating him violently]

LOCKE: James! Don't!

SAWYER: Don't what! Anyone wanna tell me why we're keeping this guy alive?

LOCKE: We're keeping him alive because he's been on this Island a lot longer than any of us. Because he has information we need. And because apart from his mouth, he's completely harmless.

SAWYER: His mouth put that hole in your gut?

LOCKE: OK, James. Let's execute him, right here right now, in front of his daughter.

[Sawyer backs down]

SAWYER: It's only a matter of time before he gets us, Johnny, and I bet he's already figured out how he's gonna do it. So you walk him.

[He hands Ben's ropes to Locke, and walks away, picking up a rifle]

[At Naomi's body, Miles kneels whispering. Jack, Kate and Dan watch on]

KATE: What is he doing?

DAN: The light, is strange out here isn't it? It's kinda like, it doesn't scatter quite right.

KATE: Dan, your name's Dan, right? Listen, Dan. I know that you don't want anybody to get hurt, right? So why don't you just put that away [looks at gun].

DAN: Er because erm, Miles would kill me.

KATE: We're just trying to help.

JACK: Kate, you're wasting your breath. Why don't we just let this play out and see what happens, OK?

[He winks at Kate]

MILES: They didn't kill her. Happened like they said it did.

[The phone beeps]

DAN: Its Charlotte, only three kilometers from here.

MILES: Alright then, let's go get her.

[Jack and Kate don't move]

MILES: I said let's go.

JACK: You need to put the guns down.

MILES: What?

JACK: Put the guns down.

MILES: Now why would I do that?

JACK: Because our friends are out in the jungle right now holding a gun at your head, and his head. So I'm gonna forget about the misunderstanding, just put the guns down.

MILES: Come on, how stupid do you think I...

[Miles and Dan duck as gunshots fire. Sayid and Juliet appear from the jungle. Kate takes Dan's gun]

JACK: I dunno, Miles, how stupid are ya?

[In flashback, a 4x4 drives through a desert in Medenine, Tunisia. Two women get out of the car, one is the same woman who was on the helicopter at the beginning of the episode, Charlotte. She picks up a newspaper, the front page reads in French “815: Retrouve!”]

WOMAN: How many different languages do you have to read that in before you believe its true?

CHARLOTTE: How many different languages are there?

[A man approaches, speaking French]

WOMAN: He wants to know if we're lost?

CHARLOTTE: Remind him the people in our line of work are terrible at keeping secrets. I know about the dig.

[The woman reiterates Charlotte's words in French to the man]

WOMAN: He says the site is closed.

CHARLOTTE: Then tell him to open it.

[Charlotte hands the man money, and heads on towards the dig. A skeleton is in the sand]

WOMAN: Dinosaur?

CHARLOTTE: Not by a few million years. It's an ursus maritimus.

WOMAN: Wait, ursus as in bear?

CHARLOTTE: As in polar bear.

WOMAN: Charlotte we're in the desert, this is a hoax right?

[The man speaks French again]

WOMAN: He wants to know what you're doing with the hammer.

CHARLOTTE: Excavating.

[She uncovers a collar]

WOMAN: Is that a collar?

[The collar has a Hydra logo on it]

[In realtime, Charlotte is hanging upside-down by her parachute, above a wide stream. She pulls on a cord, releasing her, freefalling into the water below. The water is deep, and she swims up to the surface, smiling and laughing. She then sees Locke and his group]

CHARLOTTE: Hi.

LOCKE: Hi yourself.

[In the jungle, Dan leads the others towards Charlotte's location]

JULIET: We were worried when you didn't get back so we went out to the cockpit and tracked you from there.

JACK: Thanks for that, for what its worth.

JULIET: Don't mention it.

KATE: Someone could have told me that the cavalry were here.

JACK: I gave you that, wink.

[Juliet laughs]

SAYID: What are your names?

DAN: Er I'm Daniel Faraday, and this is Miles...

MILES: Don't tell him my last name.

DAN: I guess it's just Miles.

SAYID: What do you do for a living, Daniel?

DAN: I'm a physicist. Well I guess you could call me a physicist, I don't really like being pigeon-holed into one...

MILES: Dan, I swear to God you say one more word I'm gonna break your fingers.

SAYID: And what do you do, Miles?

MILES: I collect soil samples.

SAYID: Oh that's nice, well maybe you can help me. You say you're not here on a rescue mission, and the world at large believes us to be dead. But here we are alive and well, and you don't seem remotely surprised to see us.

MILES: [Sarcastically] Oh my God, you guys were on Oceanic Flight 815, wow! That better?

[Meanwhile, Charlotte sits with Locke and his group around her]

CHARLOTTE: I can't believe you're alive. How many of you are there?

HURLEY: Why do you wanna know?

CHARLOTTE: Why wouldn't I wanna know?

HURLEY: Fourty-eight of us survived the crash, that's not counting the tail-section. They're pretty much all dead now...

LOCKE: Hugo.

CHARLOTTE: So you've all been living here this entire time. [To Claire] Is that your baby?

CLAIRE: Yeah, this is Aaron.

CHARLOTTE: Did you have him here on the Island?

CLAIRE: [In affirmation] Ahum.

CHARLOTTE: That's amazing.

[Ben looks at the gun tucked into Karl's trousers]

CHARLOTTE: Well, I've about a million more questions I want to ask you, but they can wait until we get you back to the freighter. We all got one of these transponders, so if we just sit tight, they're gonna be here soon, OK?

LOCKE: This team of yours, how many of you are there?

CHARLOTTE: Four including me.

LOCKE: And what happened to your helicopter?

CHARLOTTE: I dunno, the pilot was trying to put it down.

LOCKE: Where?

CHARLOTTE: I dunno. I had to jump, it was chaos. I'm lucky to be alive.

LOCKE: Get up, you're coming with us.

CHARLOTTE: Wha, what? We need to stay where we are so they can find us.

LOCKE: See, there's your problem. We don't wanna be found.

[Meanwhile, Sayid and co are continuing to trace Charlotte's signal, with Sayid using the phone]

MILES: I wouldn't mess around with that if I were you.

SAYID: It can't hurt to try and call someone else.

MILES: Oh it can hurt.

[They stop]

MILES: What d'you do?

SAYID: I didn't do anything.

[The phone shows Charlotte's signal. She's headed straight towards them]

SAYID: Your friend, Charlotte, she's moving. And she's moving fast.

JACK: She's running from something.

[They all run in her direction, and slow when near the signal]

SAYID: According to this, she's right here.

DAN: Charlotte! Charlotte!

[Something moves in the bushes]

KATE: Over there, over there.

[Vincent emerges with the transponder attached to him]

KATE: Vincent.

JACK: Locke's got her.

[In flashback, a plane falls gracefully to the bottom of a fish tank. We see the helicopter pilot, Frank Lapidus in a shop in Eleuthera, The Bahamas]

TV REPORTER: We wanna caution our viewers that the images they are about to see are graphic in nature. Viewer discretion is advised. Authorities have released dramatic footage of the sunken remains of Oceanic Flight 815. The National Transportation Safety Board has set up a hotline for family members of the Oceanic victims. The NTSB has begun the victim identification process.

[A photo of a man is shown on-screen next to underwater remains, and the hotline number]

TV REPORTER: We have confirmation that this is the pilot, Captain Seth Norris. In a statement, the NTSB said that quote...

[The television muffles and blurs. Frank hits it to bring the reception back]

TV REPORTER: ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims. Unquote.

[Frank stares at the screen, noticing something. He grabs a phone and dials the hotline number]

FEMALE OPERATOR: National Transportation Safety Board, Oceanic hotline.

FRANK: Yeah, let me speak to your supervisor.

FEMALE OPERATOR: Yes sir, are you a family member of the deceased?

FRANK: No I'm not, but I got some information on the crash, may I please speak to your supervisor.

FEMALE OPERATOR: Sir, if you could just tell me...

FRANK: Look I'm staring at the television right now, you're broadcasting footage of the wreckage and saying that that's the pilot Seth Norris.

FEMALE OPERATOR: Yes, sir?

FRANK: Well that's not him.

FEMALE OPERATOR: [Pauses] Please hold.

MALE VOICE: Who am I speaking with?

FRANK: Doesn't matter who I am, you're showing footage of Seth Norris and that's not him, listen, this guy married his high school sweetheart at nineteen, he always wore his wedding ring and I'm telling you there's no ring on that body.

MALE VOICE: Sir it's likely the ring fell off...

FRANK: I'm telling you, that is not him.

MALE VOICE: How exactly is it that you know all about Captain Norris?

FRANK: Because I was supposed to be flying Oceanic 815 on that day.

[In realtime, Frank is hurt and traipsing through the jungle. He climbs a hill, and at the top finds a cow with a bell on it. It strolls away, and Frank falls at the top of the hill. He gets his phone, which is smashed. Grabbing a flare gun, he fires it. Locke's group sees it]

CHARLOTTE: That's them. That's somebody from my team.

[The rest of the group look unimpressed]

CHARLOTTE: What's wrong with you people? We're here because of you. I just almost died jumping out of a helicopter because you called us for help.

HURLEY: Maybe we should go see who launched that flare.

CLAIRE: Yeah I mean they could be hurt, John.

LOCKE: She's lying. And whatever they came for it isn't us. We keep moving forwards as planned.

SAWYER: Sure, who are we to argue with taller ghost Walt.

CHARLOTTE: You know what? You people do whatever you want?

[She tries to go]

LOCKE: I want you to come with us.

CHARLOTTE: I'm not asking for permission, and if you think you're gonna bloody stop me from getting to my...

[Two gunshots go off, hitting Charlotte in the chest. Ben fired them, and Karl realises his gun is missing. Sawyer tackles Ben and beats him. Locke sees to Charlotte]

SAWYER: What did you do, you son of a bitch.

[Charlotte is alive]

CHARLOTTE: [Mutters] Vest.

LOCKE: What?

CHARLOTTE: Vest. Vest.

[Locke unzips Charlotte's coat. She is wearing Mile's bulletproof vest underneath, with the bullets caught in it]

[Meanwhile, Jack and the group have found Frank, who is unconscious]

DAN: Is he alive?

JACK: I've got a pulse.

DAN: Frank? Frank? Hey, hey. Frank?

[Frank wakes up]

DAN: You OK?

MILES: What happened?

FRANK: We got struck by lightning.

DAN: Frank, where's Charlotte?

FRANK: She bailed out, just before we went down. I don't know where she is.

MILES: Where's the chopper?

FRANK: I saw a cow.

MILES: Hey, hey, Lapidus, where's the chopper? Where did it crash?

FRANK: Crash? The hell kind of pilot d'you think I am? I put her down safe and sound right over there.

[The survivors run and look over the ridge to see the chopper on the ground safely. Jack, Sayid and Kate all look on in awe]

[In flashback, a man places four photographs on a table. Daniel, Miles, Charlotte and Frank]

NAOMI: So this is the team.

MATTHEW: You familiarised yourself with their profiles?

NAOMI: Unfortunately, yes. With respect, these are the wrong people for a mission like this. None of them have field experience, military training.

[Naomi Dorrit and Matthew Abaddon stand in an otherwise deserted office floor]

NAOMI: You can't just drop them in unprotected. It'll be a disaster.

MATTHEW: They're not unprotected, they have you.

NAOMI: There's only so much I can do.

MATTHEW: Your modesty is positively charming.

NAOMI: This is a high risk covert op in unstable territory. It's dodgy enough without having to babysit a head case, ghost buster, anthropologist and a drunk.

MATTHEW: To be fair he's also a pretty good pilot.

NAOMI: It's madness. What if we find survivors from 815?

MATTHEW: There were no survivors.

NAOMI: I know, but what if there are survivors...

MATTHEW: There were no survivors of Oceanic 815. Don't ask questions, just do what you were hired for. Every member of this team was selected for a specific purpose, everything relies on you, getting them in, getting them out, and preventing anyone from getting killed. Think you can do that?

NAOMI: Sure. Why not.

[On the Island, Kate and Dan carry Naomi's body on a stretcher. Sayid is examining the helicopter]

JACK: Well?

SAYID: There's some minor damage, but the mechanical systems are intact.

JACK: So it'll fly then?

SAYID: Absolutely.

MILES: Can I have the phone now?

JACK: Tell you what, I'll give you the phone if you tell me what you people are doing here.

MILES: I'll tell you what we're doing here if you give me the phone.

[Jack does so, and Miles makes a call]

JACK: Don't say anything about your sister.

WOMAN: Hello?

MILES: Regina, it's Miles. I need to talk to Minkowski.

REGINA: Minkowski can't come to the phone right now.

MILES: It's important, go get him.

REGINA: Miles, he can't come to the phone right now.

MILES: Alright have him call me when he can.

REGINA: I gotta go.

[Miles hangs up, and sees Dan and Kate]

MILES: Wo wo wo what are you doing with her?

DAN: We're taking her with us.

MILES: What's the point, that's not Naomi, it's just meat.

DAN: Miles, we can't just leave her here.

FRANK: [Shouting from a distance] Miles is right. We burned up most of the damned fuel flying around that storm. We barely got enough to get back to the freighter, we're not carrying any unnecessary weight. I'll take her on the next run. I promise, Dan.

JACK: There's a blanket over there by my backpack, would you get it?

KATE: Yeah.

[Juliet tends to Frank's wounds]

FRANK: Look as bad as it feels?

JULIET: How bad does it feel?

FRANK: [Laughs] What's your name again?

JULIET: Juliet.

FRANK: Juliet. Juliet what?

JULIET: Juliet Burke.

FRANK: Juliet Burke. You weren't on that plane, were you?

[Juliet pauses]

FRANK: Miles!

MILES: Yeah?

FRANK: This is Juliet, and she was not on the plane.

MILES: What? You sure?

FRANK: You know how many times I studied that damn manifest? Believe me there's no Juliet Burke on that plane. She's a native.

MILES: [Approaching her] Really... where is he!!

JACK: Back off!

JULIET: Where's who?

MILES: You wanna know why we're here, I'll tell you why we're here!

[Miles reveals a photo]

MILES: We're here for Benjamin Linus.

[The photo shows Ben]

MILES: Now where is he?

[In the jungle, Sawyer throws Ben against a tree and holds a gun to his face]

BEN: James, listen to me! Please!

SAWYER: Keep your mouth shut!

LOCKE: [To Charlotte] You OK?

CHARLOTTE: I feel like I've got a cinder block on my chest, but I'll survive.

LOCKE: I'm sorry you got shot, I didn't intend for that to happen.

CHARLOTTE: Really? Because it seemed like you were about to shoot me yourself.

LOCKE: What good would you be to me dead.

CHARLOTTE: [Sarcastically] I feel much more comfortable now. Thanks.

[Locke joins Sawyer]

SAWYER: I guess this is the part where I'm supposed to say I told you so.

LOCKE: James, I stand corrected.

SAWYER: You want me to do it?

LOCKE: No it's my mess, I'll clean it up.

[Sawyer gives Locke the gun]

ALEX: No, wait!

LOCKE: Danielle, you should escort Alex away from here.

ALEX: No, no!

DANIELLE: Let's go, come on, Alex.

KARL: She's right, let's go.

LOCKE: Anyone who doesn't want to see this should leave now.

CLAIRE: John we should talk about this.

LOCKE: Claire, what if one of those bullets had hit you or the baby?

BEN: John, listen. I have information that you need. I have answers.

LOCKE: [Pauses] What is the Monster?

BEN: What?

LOCKE: The black smoke, the Monster, what is it?

BEN: I don't know.

LOCKE: Then goodbye, Benjamin.

BEN: Her name is Charlotte Lewis! Charlotte Staples Lewis. Born July second, nineteen seventy-nine, Essex, England. Parents David and Jeanette. Eldest of three, all girls. She was raised in Bromsgrove. Did her undergraduate studies at Kent. Took her PhD in Cultural Anthropology at Oxford. She's here with two other team members and a pilot. Their names Daniel Faraday, Miles Straume, Frank Lapidus.

[Charlotte says nothing]

BEN: Your instinct was right, John, these people are a threat, and if you shoot me you'll never know how great a threat they were. Because I know what they're doing here. I know what they want.

SAWYER: What do they want?

BEN: Me, James, they want me.

LOCKE: [Gun still pointed] How do you know all this?

BEN: Because I have a man on their boat.

Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 04:30:51 PM
Does that work for you puff?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 05:08:13 PM
Where did you get that from?

I want to see something from the first episode. Is it official or a fan typing the from the show??
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 05:16:12 PM
juggy my mother sent it to me

i would think it was official, (she doesnt know much about Lost via the WWW besides ABC.COM) but let me give her a buzz and ask her, cause i dont see anything like that on ABC.com
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: CastawayCayley on February 11, 2008, 05:19:22 PM
I have gotten transcripts from here in the past:
http://www.losthatch.com/transcripts.aspx

I have always assumed it's done by a fan. But it is handy for searching for dialogue by keywords or just by character. As far as I know, it has been fairly accurate.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Fallybear on February 11, 2008, 05:27:38 PM
I have gotten transcripts from here in the past:
http://www.losthatch.com/transcripts.aspx

I have always assumed it's done by a fan. But it is handy for searching for dialogue by keywords or just by character. As far as I know, it has been fairly accurate.

If it was transcibed by a fan, the fan might have assumed it was a flashback. They would be wrong.

I vote with Puff on this one.

Good job getting the transcript cbw.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 05:29:54 PM
I have gotten transcripts from here in the past:
http://www.losthatch.com/transcripts.aspx

I have always assumed it's done by a fan. But it is handy for searching for dialogue by keywords or just by character. As far as I know, it has been fairly accurate.

If it was transcibed by a fan, the fan might have assumed it was a flashback. They would be wrong.

I vote with Puff on this one.

Good job getting the transcript cbw.

i didnt post this, nor have i confirmed where my mother got it from
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: CastawayCayley on February 11, 2008, 05:32:28 PM
I have gotten transcripts from here in the past:
http://www.losthatch.com/transcripts.aspx

I have always assumed it's done by a fan. But it is handy for searching for dialogue by keywords or just by character. As far as I know, it has been fairly accurate.

If it was transcibed by a fan, the fan might have assumed it was a flashback. They would be wrong.

I vote with Puff on this one.

Good job getting the transcript cbw.

i didnt post this, nor have i confirmed where my mother got it from

I just put it there as another resource. I made the disclaimer that it was probably done by fans.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 11, 2008, 05:45:10 PM
Wagering posting privileges is counterproductive to board unity.

While I often site food drops as proof (at least during season 2) of outside contact, there is no solid evidence that they were actually parachuted in from the real world.  In fact someone (probably Sayiid) commented on such, just like when he asked if someone actually saw Naomi chopper going down.  Sure, it seems a bit far-fetched to think that The Others would have the means or the motivation to fake a food drop, unless it was as simple as removing the camouflage from an existing drop.


I also question the NEED for the cocktail that Juliet drank before boarding the flight.  Maybe they just didn't want her to know where the sub was docked...that seems the obvious choice.  Perhaps it was for the same reason that Neo had to swallow the red pill.

Quote
Since we have not seen gross irrational behavior out of the four...

Surely you jest.  Maelstrom is a general freak out.  Faraday is a flake both before the mission (is you believe it was a flashback) and once he's on The Island.  C.S. Lewis, while not irrational, is quite the fishy character.  I won't be surprised to find the pilot down the road feigning death with barbecue sauce poured on himself.

The reason the Dropees participate in the cover-up, if that is indeed what is going to happen, is either for their own personal reasons (such as the pilot's guilt for not being on 815 or whatever) or because they've made a deal.  I'd say this is the most likely scenario. 

In the past, spooky Abbadon has made a separate deal with each of the Dropees, based on whatever bargaining position could be obtained, just like in the future a deal will have been cut with each of the Oceanic 6 to ensure their silence about certain sensitive Island matters.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 05:47:37 PM
Wagering posting privileges is counterproductive to board unity.

While I often site food drops as proof (at least during season 2) of outside contact, there is no solid evidence that they were actually parachuted in from the real world.  In fact someone (probably Sayiid) commented on such, just like when he asked if someone actually saw Naomi chopper going down.  Sure, it seems a bit far-fetched to think that The Others would have the means or the motivation to fake a food drop, unless it was as simple as removing the camouflage from an existing drop.


I also question the NEED for the cocktail that Juliet drank before boarding the flight.  Maybe they just didn't want her to know where the sub was docked...that seems the obvious choice.  Perhaps it was for the same reason that Neo had to swallow the red pill.


there are countless things on here that take place each and everyday that are counterproductive to board unity LOL

i questioned the need for it as well at first, but then i noticed not a single person in that "airport" besides Ethan and Richard, makes it a lil fishy if you ask me
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 05:54:29 PM
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 05:57:26 PM
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.

i agree as well, i just wanted to get the puffer fired up LOL

(i think the puffer knows i'm only playin around...however i would like to point out that i am a man of my word and would bow out gracefully if i was wrong)


FLASHBACKS!!! FLASHBACKS I SAY!!!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 11, 2008, 09:02:28 PM
Infidels, beware the wrath of Puff! 

Under the premise of AIRHEAD, there are no flashbacks or flashforwards.....there are just flashes.  Desmond time travelled or went to an alternate reality.  Things may have been slightly different, memories of the island came back slowly, and he went back to a situation that he most wanted to change (only to find he couldn't). 

The flashes of the boaties were short, targeted, and all pointed to some intuition that the crash was a cover up.  Again, none of their responses make sense (except perhaps Frank's).  Since everybody has always been introduced by flashbacks, you assume that these are what you are watching.  Additionally, since we have been getting used to flashforwards, you assume they'll switch back to flashbacks. 

The real answer to all of this is that we don't know.  Poll away. 

If the mechanism to get off the island takes you to a reality and time for which you most wish to return, and memories of the island return slowly, then it all makes sense and it is brilliant storytelling.  It doesn't mean anything to me whether the boaties were introduced by backs or forwards (except Naomi), but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.  Program terminated.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LouE68 on February 11, 2008, 09:06:24 PM
guess your not going to join the poll then huh
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 11, 2008, 11:23:33 PM
Forward:
Dan crying without reason.
Charlotte knowing to look for a Dharma belt on a dead polar bear in the desert.  (Remember, if you believe it to be a flashback, then Charlotte had yet to be recruited and would have been baffled by the bear/belt).

Unknown:
Frank
Miles

Back:
Naomi

Now back to the Family Guy mini marathon on TNT
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 11:30:26 PM
Why would Charlotte have to be baffled. She knew exactly where she was going and what she was looking for. Why? numerous reasons other than flashforward.

1) She works for Dharma.

2) She has been doing research on Dharma and has been on their heals. She is starting to figure things out.

3) Some one like Abbadon told here what to look for. From her flashback we do not know when they meet.

4) This is not the first strange finding she has come across.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 11, 2008, 11:34:56 PM
Forward:
Dan crying without reason.
Charlotte knowing to look for a Dharma belt on a dead polar bear in the desert.  (Remember, if you believe it to be a flashback, then Charlotte had yet to be recruited and would have been baffled by the bear/belt).

How do you know she hadn't been recruited? Did I miss something? You are making a big assumption about Charlotte. I could just as easily assume from her reaction that she had already been recruited, or even could have been involved somehow with the person or persons behind the mission even before it became a mission.

I believe it to be a flashback and I don't assume that it HAD to take place BEFORE Charlotte was recruited. Charlotte was specifically going to look at the skeleton. She didn't just happen upon it..."Oh my! A Polar Bear in Tunisia? With a collar? Curiouser and Curiouser!" She didn't find it...she went to see it. One could argue that her reaction was a flashforward, yes. Or, in the context of the other four flashbacks (or at least, 2 of them strongly suggested it), one could argue (strongly) that it was a flashback and there is yet something we do not know about Charlotte.

I mean, what the hell...maybe she's even related to Penny!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: thebeann on February 11, 2008, 11:35:30 PM
Why would Charlotte have to be baffled. She knew exactly where she was going and what she was looking for. Why? numerous reasons other than flashforward.

1) She works for Dharma.

2) She has been doing research on Dharma and has been on their heals. She is starting to figure things out.

3) Some one like Abbadon told here what to look for. From her flashback we do not know when they meet.

4) This is not the first strange finding she has come across.

Great minds think alike...:-)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 11, 2008, 11:57:35 PM
If she were working for Dharma or Abaddon at the time of the bear scene, then she wouldn't be moving about with a neophyte.  She would have been secretive and certainly wouldn't suggest that TPTB (acronym) were faking the crash.  She would behave like any good Dharma operative....weird and quiet.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 11, 2008, 11:58:47 PM
That is assuming a lot, but ok. Now dismiss the other options i gave.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: joshzam on February 12, 2008, 12:41:07 AM
Allow me to theorize.

These were all flashbacks. Flashbacks for the four boaties. Flashbacks from a time before they were "recruited" and after flight 815 had originally crashed. A time before we saw the the boaties meet the Losties and after they themselves first left The Island. [dum dum duuuuuum!]

No one on this board inspires me more than Puff. I thoroughly enjoy his wild a creative speculations. They inspire me to think outside the box. Speaking about the boaties: "...some purposeful duality has been introduced in their characters". Boy, are you right.

These four boaties find themselves exactly where our Oceanic 6 are destined to arrive (if they all survive). They managed to escape from The Island and would now give anything to get back. What better group of people to send on a mission back to the Island? Ben knows them. And they know Ben. They know him very well. They didn't have to be tricked into going. They didn't have to be coerced. The obvious cover up attempt hit a little too close to home for all of them and they have their own personal missions to accomplish.

Charlotte first learned of Dharma and their ways when she was first on the island. Now that she has returned to civilization, it is her obsession to learn more about this group. She was not surprised to find the polar bear in the desert. It was just another piece of the puzzle that she has been piecing together for years. She was happy to see that Dharma logo. And did you see how happy she was to be back swimming in the waters of The Island?

The found wreckage of flight 815. It's happening all over again for Dan. He's not as strong as the rest. It's still very fresh in his mind. And it still hurts. He parachuted with a box of gas masks. I think I know why those might come in handy on this island. Just ask Ben's dad.

Frank wasn't the pilot of Oceanic 815. But he was supposed to be. He wanted to be! But he hadn't flown since that first fateful flight that he piloted. You know, the one that crashed on The Island the first time.

Of course Miles wasn't all that surprised to see the Losties or The Island. He had seen it all before. And Miles can see dead people. WTF? You know what? He wasn't able to see dead people before he first landed on the Island. Neither was Jack. Or Hurley. Or Locke or Eko or Ben. But they can now. Miles Straume. Say that 3 times fast.

The only question left in my mind is why were they dressed so wonderfully casual. Franks' Hawaiian shirt is a nice touch, but Dan was actually wearing a tie. A tie!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 12, 2008, 12:45:08 AM
Charlotte---has found things before and is interested in darma.  She saw that it was a polar bear and went to check it out and knew that darma people had polar bears in there tests.  Her notwanting to believe that it crashed in the trench could also be explained by her studys.  Maybe she has found out about the electromagnetism and an island where the experiments are going on.  Or maybe she is working for Penny as well.  And is on the trace of Desmond, while the rest of her crew does not know that she knows Penny Widmore.

Miles--well he can talk to dead people so, yes of course we need him.

Faraday--Could have known some one on that flight or could have been supposed to go on the flight himself.  In fact I am betting that sometime soon we will see him in a flashback to the airport or something like that.  I think he was supposed to go on this flight and is crying because he thinks that he would have died.

Lapidus--knew it was fake because he knew the pilot, So he wanted to go.


Now to explain why none of them are shocked about there being survivors of 815 on that island.  Naomi was there leader and clearly Naomi knew that the plain crashed there.  She has informed them of there mission and has told them that there will be people from flight 815 there. 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on February 12, 2008, 09:19:29 AM
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.
shall we sell tickets for the Cage Fight? mebbe we can do a live podcast...??

;)  I'm on CBW's side
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 12, 2008, 10:23:22 AM
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 12, 2008, 10:29:46 AM
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.
shall we sell tickets for the Cage Fight? mebbe we can do a live podcast...??

;)  I'm on CBW's side

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Allow me to theorize.

These were all flashbacks. Flashbacks for the four boaties. Flashbacks from a time before they were "recruited" and after flight 815 had originally crashed. A time before we saw the the boaties meet the Losties and after they themselves first left The Island. [dum dum duuuuuum!]

No one on this board inspires me more than Puff. I thoroughly enjoy his wild a creative speculations. They inspire me to think outside the box. Speaking about the boaties: "...some purposeful duality has been introduced in their characters". Boy, are you right.

These four boaties find themselves exactly where our Oceanic 6 are destined to arrive (if they all survive). They managed to escape from The Island and would now give anything to get back. What better group of people to send on a mission back to the Island? Ben knows them. And they know Ben. They know him very well. They didn't have to be tricked into going. They didn't have to be coerced. The obvious cover up attempt hit a little too close to home for all of them and they have their own personal missions to accomplish.

Charlotte first learned of Dharma and their ways when she was first on the island. Now that she has returned to civilization, it is her obsession to learn more about this group. She was not surprised to find the polar bear in the desert. It was just another piece of the puzzle that she has been piecing together for years. She was happy to see that Dharma logo. And did you see how happy she was to be back swimming in the waters of The Island?

The found wreckage of flight 815. It's happening all over again for Dan. He's not as strong as the rest. It's still very fresh in his mind. And it still hurts. He parachuted with a box of gas masks. I think I know why those might come in handy on this island. Just ask Ben's dad.

Frank wasn't the pilot of Oceanic 815. But he was supposed to be. He wanted to be! But he hadn't flown since that first fateful flight that he piloted. You know, the one that crashed on The Island the first time.

Of course Miles wasn't all that surprised to see the Losties or The Island. He had seen it all before. And Miles can see dead people. WTF? You know what? He wasn't able to see dead people before he first landed on the Island. Neither was Jack. Or Hurley. Or Locke or Eko or Ben. But they can now. Miles Straume. Say that 3 times fast.

The only question left in my mind is why were they dressed so wonderfully casual. Franks' Hawaiian shirt is a nice touch, but Dan was actually wearing a tie. A tie!
 

Good reasoning often leads to more questions.  Many in life are uncomfortable with that notion, but I choose not to be.  This is the first attempt I have seen to provide a schema, a broad paradigm, for why these people were shown acting the way they did off--and on--the island.  Congratulations, Mr. Joshzam, you have restored my faith in this board (Also, I would like to thank Mr. Creflo, my producer, my agent, and or course mom and dad....gettin ready for the Oscars you know).
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 12, 2008, 10:33:41 AM
Don't take any guff from these swine.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: puff6962 on February 12, 2008, 10:49:54 AM
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."

I have always hated the use of forwards or backs, because--as you point out--the physics and the paradoxes mount quickly.  Instead, think of the whole deal as "Slaughterhouse Five" where time is  irrelevant or, at least, arbitrary.  If you have a device that can "jump" realities along the lines of the Hugh Everett model, then you have an infinite number of worlds/realities.  Such worlds would not be forward or back in time as they coexist beside our own quantum formulation but are, in everyday life, invisible.  If one has a magic box allowing transition to such realities, then--from the perspective of the traveller--time continues on as if along a numbered axis.  The traveller may be back in a reality very similar to our 1930's and may return minutes later an old man.  But from his--the traveler's perspective--seventy years have past.  Is that time travel?  The one difficulty that every work on time encounters is the twin paradox.  No, not the Einsteinian spaceship clock stuff, but instead the notion that there may be two of you there and, if there is not, then how did you enter your twin's head.  That's always where storylines diverge from science and you end up with Dr. Sam Beckett in front of a stage entering the body of a stripper.  Not the usual way that one enters the....well, you get the point.

Anyway, don't worry about the time travel stuff if you've bought into the Hugh Everett model and you don't want to change history.

Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 12, 2008, 10:52:33 AM
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."

I have always hated the use of forwards or backs, because--as you point out--the physics and the paradoxes mount quickly.  Instead, think of the whole deal as "Slaughterhouse Five" where time is  irrelevant or, at least, arbitrary.  If you have a device that can "jump" realities along the lines of the Hugh Everett model, then you have an infinite number of worlds/realities.  Such worlds would not be forward or back in time as they coexist beside our own quantum formulation but are, in everyday life, invisible.  If one has a magic box allowing transition to such realities, then--from the perspective of the traveller--time continues on as if along a numbered axis.  The traveller may be back in a reality very similar to our 1930's and may return minutes later an old man.  But from his--the traveler's perspective--seventy years have past.  Is that time travel?  The one difficulty that every work on time encounters is the twin paradox.  No, not the Einsteinian spaceship clock stuff, but instead the notion that there may be two of you there and, if there is not, then how did you enter your twin's head.  That's always where storylines diverge from science and you end up with Dr. Sam Beckett in front of a stage entering the body of a stripper.  Not the usual way that one enters the....well, you get the point.

Anyway, don't worry about the time travel stuff if you've bought into the Hugh Everett model and you don't want to change history.



Ahhh yeah, they were flashbacks.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostandfree on February 12, 2008, 05:20:54 PM
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Ladybug on February 12, 2008, 05:22:59 PM
well said lostandfree, well said.  i agree!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 05:24:05 PM

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 12, 2008, 05:39:44 PM
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.

please be my new internet best friend
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: laklost on February 12, 2008, 05:43:03 PM

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 12, 2008, 05:44:24 PM

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...

i think all those things are lumped into  "not the Lost-nerds posting on every messageboard regarding Lost"

LOL LOL LOL
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 05:49:29 PM
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.
Ok, it's a draw.  Naomi's flash was a 'back' (she wasn't dead yet),  Lapidos and Faraday's flashes were 'forwards' (they were upset by something they already KNEW ABOUT, that the crash was faked and that something bad happened on the island), and Miles flash was an 'unknown at this time'.

The whole backbone and architecture of the entire show is based on "flashbacks" and now "flash-forwards".  How could one not believe or understand that the show is about time manipulation, the very thing that the characters are doing in their flashes? (going back and forth).  It's the central theme and overarching theory of what the show is based upon. For some(removed offending language) the theory may be too much for them to even think about, so they get upset when anyone mentions it, because it ruins their world view and forces them to think outside of the box- (how could this be happening? this can't happen?).  That's how cool the show is, it can be happening.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 05:51:45 PM

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...
i.e., Mom trying to watch the show while 3 babies cry and another one burps up supper on her dress.  She doesn't have time to understand the complex side of the show, nor does she need to.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Ladybug on February 12, 2008, 05:53:10 PM

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...
i.e., Mom trying to watch the show while 3 babies cry and another one burps up supper on her dress.  She doesn't have time to understand the complex side of the show, nor does she need to.
i think you just described pl to a t and i think she understands the show very well. 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: laklost on February 12, 2008, 05:54:41 PM
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.
Ok, it's a draw.  Naomi's flash was a 'back' (she wasn't dead yet),  Lapidos and Faraday's flashes were 'forwards' (they were upset by something they already KNEW ABOUT, that the crash was faked and that something bad happened on the island), and Miles flash was an 'unknown at this time'.

The whole backbone and architecture of the entire show is based on "flashbacks" and now "flash-forwards".  How could one not believe or understand that the show is about time manipulation, the very thing that the characters are doing in their flashes? (going back and forth).  It's the central theme and overarching theory of what the show is based upon. I believe that the reason those who are so headstrong against buying into this theory is simply because they just can't wrap their little brains around it, it's too much for them to even think about, so they get upset when anyone mentions it, because it ruins their world view and forces them to think outside of the box- (how could this be happening? this can't happen?).  That's how cool the show is, it can be happening.

Geez, I agree with you about time travel, but can't stand your view of people who don't agree with you!  Can't you see that until the construct of how time is altered IS SHOWN AS A MAJOR COMPONENT OF THE PLOT and not something hinted at in the narrative, that there MIGHT BE other explanations of how things are operating?  Good grief, you sound so demeaning to those who don't see things your way.  I like reading the posts of people who are against time travel because they're trying to explain how things are happening based on the natural laws we know.  If TPTB completely didn't want this kind of debate, they would have made it clear from day one that there is time travel.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 12, 2008, 05:58:43 PM

The whole backbone and architecture of the entire show is based on "flashbacks" and now "flash-forwards".  How could one not believe or understand that the show is about time manipulation, the very thing that the characters are doing in their flashes? (going back and forth).  It's the central theme and overarching theory of what the show is based upon. I believe that the reason those who are so headstrong against buying into this theory is simply because they just can't wrap their little brains around it, it's too much for them to even think about, so they get upset when anyone mentions it, because it ruins their world view and forces them to think outside of the box- (how could this be happening? this can't happen?).  That's how cool the show is, it can be happening.

i know about time travel, and i understand it quite well, however, i have not seen any CONCRETE evidence making it true, sure there are some little things that support it, but by no means has it been proven
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 12, 2008, 06:00:38 PM
t-mack could you explain to me how these flash backs and flash forwards are in fact manipulating time??

the way i see it, its only showing us what happened in the past and whats going to happen in the future, i also see this as a way of telling the whole story of Lost in another 48 episodes, without having to go into an extra 48 episodes
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: laklost on February 12, 2008, 06:01:04 PM
Are the characters even aware that the flashes are going on?

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=5680.0
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 06:15:56 PM
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.
Ok, it's a draw.  Naomi's flash was a 'back' (she wasn't dead yet),  Lapidos and Faraday's flashes were 'forwards' (they were upset by something they already KNEW ABOUT, that the crash was faked and that something bad happened on the island), and Miles flash was an 'unknown at this time'.

The whole backbone and architecture of the entire show is based on "flashbacks" and now "flash-forwards".  How could one not believe or understand that the show is about time manipulation, the very thing that the characters are doing in their flashes? (going back and forth).  It's the central theme and overarching theory of what the show is based upon. I believe that the reason those who are so headstrong against buying into this theory is simply because they just can't wrap their little brains around it, it's too much for them to even think about, so they get upset when anyone mentions it, because it ruins their world view and forces them to think outside of the box- (how could this be happening? this can't happen?).  That's how cool the show is, it can be happening.

Geez, I agree with you about time travel, but can't stand your view of people who don't agree with you!  Can't you see that until the construct of how time is altered IS SHOWN AS A MAJOR COMPONENT OF THE PLOT and not something hinted at in the narrative, that there MIGHT BE other explanations of how things are operating?  Good grief, you sound so demeaning to those who don't see things your way.  I like reading the posts of people who are against time travel because they're trying to explain how things are happening based on the natural laws we know.  If TPTB completely didn't want this kind of debate, they would have made it clear from day one that there is time travel.
Sorry just trying to make a strong point here, don't take it personally.  But we must have this debate if we are going to realistically discuss the show.  Time is being manipulated.  I DON'T KNOW HOW, or I would be that wacky guy Lindeloff myself, and trust me, I'm not.

There would be no logical reason for them to "confuse" the audience with all of these hints at time alteration, only to 'head-fake' us one year from now.  They would be accused of seriously jumping the shark, something they are trying hard to avoid based on their comments. 

The hints are there for a purpose, to lead us along slowly, to get us to believe, quietly in our own heads, that something 'strange' is happening, that this island or it's powers are frigging with the timeline as we know it.  If they hit us over the head with it, or introduced it in some haphazard way in one 30 second blast in the show, no one would go for it.  So what do they do instead, they slowly leak to us the possibilities, and then Puffy comes along and mind warps us all over again with interpretation.  Now we are listening, slowly believing, so that when the 'end game' rears its ugly head- voila!- we say what a freakin' awesome show that was.  It makes for a fun ride, also!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 06:25:53 PM
t-mack could you explain to me how these flash backs and flash forwards are in fact manipulating time??

the way i see it, its only showing us what happened in the past and whats going to happen in the future, i also see this as a way of telling the whole story of Lost in another 48 episodes, without having to go into an extra 48 episodes
It's not the point I was trying to make.  The forwards and backs themselves aren't time manipulation, only a vehicle with which to explain the basic construct of the show.  Time, itself.  The show tells a story by going back and forth in time, it's the backbone of the show.  Flashbacks, now flashforwards.  TPTB are friggin with time, and they're friggin' with our heads. It's not such a leap to imagine that if TPTB are using time to tell a story (flashbacks and flashforwards), that they wouldn't think themselves very clever if they started to mess with the one thing that we believe to be a constant and a central theme, time itself.

Now when we start to have issues, is when characters in their flashbacks are actually remembering things that happened in the future (Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes").  He remembered, while he was back in England, that he would be on an island in the future.  There is no possible way to explain that unless you went through time somehow (in your mind, body, or spirit). I am not here to explain how that is scientifically possible, I'm only reporting to you what I saw.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 12, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
I am another person who Understands time theories and some of it is taking place on this show. Desmond has dealt with this, no doubt. But my main contention is that it is not going to be what explains every scene. The Time manipulation crowd is using this to try to explain every detail. Some time a cow is a cow, and a flashback is just a flashback.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: versed4every1 on February 12, 2008, 07:23:35 PM
I am another person who Understands time theories and some of it is taking place on this show. Desmond has dealt with this, no doubt. But my main contention is that it is not going to be what explains every scene. The Time manipulation crowd is using this to try to explain every detail. Some time a cow is a cow, and a flashback is just a flashback.

Amen.  I looked at this as a flashback that helped to define who these new characters were so that we would not reject them outright (a la Nikki and Paulo), but be intrigued about who they were and why they were there.  I have no problem with the whole Time Travel, Time Bubble, Alternate Reality issues.  I am sure that they play a major role in the story as a whole.  But I agree, they will not used to explain every plot twist. 

Finally, I really regret that some posters have to take the discussion to a level where they are attacking people that see things differently then they do.  That does not aid in the discussion or the development of new ideas. 
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: laklost on February 12, 2008, 07:24:54 PM
I am another person who Understands time theories and some of it is taking place on this show. Desmond has dealt with this, no doubt. But my main contention is that it is not going to be what explains every scene. The Time manipulation crowd is using this to try to explain every detail. Some time a cow is a cow, and a flashback is just a flashback.

Right.  It might be the operating theory, but it starts to feel like the "Time Travel" wet blanket.  My point is still if the characters are caught in a time dimension, they still have to make the same choices about what it means to be human and a good one at that.  
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 07:26:29 PM
I am another person who Understands time theories and some of it is taking place on this show. Desmond has dealt with this, no doubt. But my main contention is that it is not going to be what explains every scene. The Time manipulation crowd is using this to try to explain every detail. Some time a cow is a cow, and a flashback is just a flashback.
It's the "game-changer".  While I agree it's not the explanation for everything (how can Locke now walk, for example).  But dead people don't move around from one place to another, people are somehow ageless, and people like Juliet and Locke's Dad just mysteriously appear on an island "that God can't see" because "a cow is a cow".
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Nancy Drew on February 13, 2008, 01:10:29 AM
I am just gonna throw my opinion in here and hopefully not get blasted for having one.


I think they were flashbacks, but not too far back, obviously.  Isn't it stated in the ARG at the beginning with Sam how many days the Oceanic 815 has been missing??  When they decide to call off the search??  Paula, help me out here...........Point being, the ARG could let us know the timeline based on the finding of the crash.  Plus, hasn't anyone looked at a date on Charlotte's newspaper yet??  I'm behind in my reading because life has interfered with LOST once again.........


Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 13, 2008, 01:37:56 AM
Quote
Now when we start to have issues, is when characters in their flashbacks are actually remembering things that happened in the future (Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes").  He remembered, while he was back in England, that he would be on an island in the future.  There is no possible way to explain that unless you went through time somehow (in your mind, body, or spirit). I am not here to explain how that is scientifically possible, I'm only reporting to you what I saw.

I have to admit, I buy into TimeTravel but I don't think the "flashes" are time travel.
My humble opinion is that there is some alternate reality /simultaneous time lines going on..(that has also been discussed in great length)  This is the ONLY explanation I can wrap my tiny little brain around.  And that particular episode seals it for me. (One of my favorite epis BTW) How else could Des see his island experience as "future" if he has not lived it already? And with that goes a whole other topic and discussion

Originally I believed like V that we were shown "flashback" of the boaties so they can introduce the new characters, but now I'm not so sure anymore...
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: catchit on February 13, 2008, 02:34:39 AM
Flashbacks
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: catchit on February 13, 2008, 02:57:51 AM
I think the general idea of the show Lost showing us "Flashforwards" has nothing to do with time travel or any of that sort of thing.  The purpose is to show us the viewer what they have become in the future ... and to show us their consequences of their actions on the island.

The only person that we know at this point to time travel is Desmond and in his episode it is completely different than the other flashforwards.  In his episode it specifically shows how he reacts to the time travel, and you can tell that its taken place in "current" time. (the fact that he has no idea he is painting a house, and the soccer match thing).  There was no evidence in Jacks or Hurleys Flashforwards that indicate that they were in "current island" time.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: CaseyMac on February 13, 2008, 03:26:54 AM
Lost's way of introducing new characters on the island has ALWAYS been through flashbacks. It's one of the tools that makes the writing so cool. Although theoretically it's possible they were flash-forwards, I think they stuck with what they've done for everyone else and introduced them in a flashback.

As for the time travel discussion, I'm still not sure what to make of Desmonds trip when he blew the hatch, but I wouldn't put time travel or alternate realities out of the picture for anyone yet.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 13, 2008, 04:38:38 PM
With all of the hindu references, do you think that the whole alternative reality theories tie into reincarnation?  I guess I'm saying that those who were not on the lists had not lived through enough realities to work out their defects.  Time may not mean anything as far as the scenes we have seen.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 13, 2008, 04:46:41 PM
With all of the hindu references, do you think that the whole alternative reality theories tie into reincarnation?  I guess I'm saying that those who were not on the lists had not lived through enough realities to work out their defects.  Time may not mean anything as far as the scenes we have seen.

I have thought of this many many many many times also
Glad you brought it up! I say it is possible
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 13, 2008, 05:36:18 PM
The cow thing might have then been a reincarnation reference!

If Lost turns into a show about reincarnation, isn't that going to make a lot of evangelicals a little uncomfortable?  I think that most of the republican nominees said that they did not believe in evolution and half thought that the world was flat.  A show based on science is one thing.  One based on religion another.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 13, 2008, 05:51:51 PM
The cow thing might have then been a reincarnation reference!

If Lost turns into a show about reincarnation, isn't that going to make a lot of evangelicals a little uncomfortable?  I think that most of the republican nominees said that they did not believe in evolution and half thought that the world was flat.  A show based on science is one thing.  One based on religion another.

The show seems to be touching on a little bit of everything
So although I think it is possible I also kinda doubt that they will go there completely.
I think its a mixture of a Faith, Science, metaphysics etc...
Its hard to tell at this point where they are taking us
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 13, 2008, 10:09:58 PM
Quote
He remembered, while he was back in England, that he would be on an island in the future.  There is no possible way to explain that unless you went through time somehow (in your mind, body, or spirit).

Another way to explain it is that Desmond relived the events of the past in his mind only.  There's no evidence that he made any changes in the past which affected the state of affairs for the Losties.

No one has been definitively shown to have travelled any direction in time so far in the show.  I smell at most a Richard Bach paradigm in which the consciousness in one space/time is able to speak to that of another and advise.  This will turn out to be a huge part of Lost, I'll wager.

"If only I knew then what I know now..."
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 12:08:30 AM
Desmond time travelled according to the podcast.  Or, I guess, they said that it wasn't just a dream.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 14, 2008, 12:16:05 PM
Desmond time travelled according to the podcast.  Or, I guess, they said that it wasn't just a dream.

you cant' believe the podcasts (so i've been told)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 14, 2008, 12:34:20 PM
Desmond time travelled according to the podcast.  Or, I guess, they said that it wasn't just a dream.

According to everything I've read (way too much!), there are still numerous possibilities.
*Actual time travel which changes the outcome of those involved,
*Actual time travel that creates alternate realities or parallels,
*Desmond travelled back in time only in his mind (not a dream) only to realise that the outcome is destined,
*Desmond was previously able to see the future but since the implosion of the hatch now only has flashes

Let me explain what I mean about the last one.  What if in his flashback, Desmond started to think he had lived this time before because he could suddenly see the future and it all seemed as if it had already happened.  Then, after the implosion, his ability was diminished and now he can see only flashes of the future.  He no longer thinks he is reliving a period of time because it is not all familiar and so he thinks he can 'suddenly' see the future for the first time.

I don't know, I've gone and confused myself again!  ???
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 01:37:30 PM
I read some book my neighbor gave me called God's Debris.  It was good but out there!!!! :-\

Anyway, it asked the question that if you can see the future and change it each time, but know the outcome already of your change, then you have only one possible real choice in your life.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 14, 2008, 02:10:46 PM
Quote
According to everything I've read (way too much!), there are still numerous possibilities.
*Actual time travel which changes the outcome of those involved,
*Actual time travel that creates alternate realities or parallels,
*Desmond traveled back in time only in his mind (not a dream) only to realize that the outcome is destined,
*Desmond was previously able to see the future but since the implosion of the hatch now only has flashes
All very interesting ideas but I will say to #3 where you say he realized that the outcome is destined, or to others who say he traveled but he can't change the outcomes....just remember this....

When Desmond yelled at the bartender to duck the cricket bat that Jimmy had aimed at his head, he changed the outcome!  In the previous flash, Desmond had not warned the bartender, and Jimmy whacked him with the cricket bat.  Desmond changed that experience by warning him, which in turn, changed the outcome (because he himself got hit with the cricket bat, causing him to flash back to the island again). 

So Desmond DID change events, granted it was not a major event though.  The major event where Desmond heeded Ms. Hawkings advice and DID NOT ask Penny to marry him, he did not change the outcome. 

So the question is, does changing the outcome of small events,  no matter how insignificant, create the 'butterfly effect', or does only changing the large events create turbulence in the Universe which then has to "course-corrected"?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 14, 2008, 02:25:59 PM
Quote
According to everything I've read (way too much!), there are still numerous possibilities.
*Actual time travel which changes the outcome of those involved,
*Actual time travel that creates alternate realities or parallels,
*Desmond traveled back in time only in his mind (not a dream) only to realize that the outcome is destined,
*Desmond was previously able to see the future but since the implosion of the hatch now only has flashes
All very interesting ideas but I will say to #3 where you say he realized that the outcome is destined, or to others who say he traveled but he can't change the outcomes....just remember this....

When Desmond yelled at the bartender to duck the cricket bat that Jimmy had aimed at his head, he changed the outcome!  In the previous flash, Desmond had not warned the bartender, and Jimmy whacked him with the cricket bat.  Desmond changed that experience by warning him, which in turn, changed the outcome (because he himself got hit with the cricket bat, causing him to flash back to the island again). 

So Desmond DID change events, granted it was not a major event though.  The major event where Desmond heeded Ms. Hawkings advice and DID NOT ask Penny to marry him, he did not change the outcome. 

So the question is, does changing the outcome of small events,  no matter how insignificant, create the 'butterfly effect', or does only changing the large events create turbulence in the Universe which then has to "course-corrected"?

I don't pretend to 'know' who is right or wrong in this debate, but to answer your thoughts about the bartender, how do we know that he didn't get home that night and get clocked in the head by his wife for some reason thereby setting the universe right again?  Would this be a petty and trivial thing for the powers that be to do in the course of their 'correcting'?  Sure.  I guess there would be a line drawn somewhere as to what justifies needing correction.  I am not one to believe that the real world is planned out in detail ahead of time, but in the 'Lost' world we have been told, through the story of Charlie's inevitable death, that at least some things are meant to be.  However, this still doesn't tell us if we are dealing with MPU's or time travel, nor if our new friends of the freighter have been flash forwarded or not.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: PrincessLeia on February 14, 2008, 03:24:42 PM

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...
i.e., Mom trying to watch the show while 3 babies cry and another one burps up supper on her dress.  She doesn't have time to understand the complex side of the show, nor does she need to.
I do live in Suburbia, & I actually have 5 kids, but no offense taken. ;)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 03:25:18 PM
But, why would knocking out, I don't know, cause Desmond to return to the island?  That could mean that Jack, Hurley, and Kate had better be careful not to get bonked or Jack needs to get off the gold pass and get whomped in a bar! :P :P
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: laklost on February 14, 2008, 04:15:32 PM
But, why would knocking out, I don't know, cause Desmond to return to the island?  That could mean that Jack, Hurley, and Kate had better be careful not to get bonked or Jack needs to get off the gold pass and get whomped in a bar! :P :P

If Achara's brother and his thugs find him again, he'll get BAAAACK all right!

Have I officially said a warm SWLS Howdy! to ya Footballmom?  So glad you're aboard.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: T Mack on February 14, 2008, 04:55:42 PM
Quote
According to everything I've read (way too much!), there are still numerous possibilities.
*Actual time travel which changes the outcome of those involved,
*Actual time travel that creates alternate realities or parallels,
*Desmond traveled back in time only in his mind (not a dream) only to realize that the outcome is destined,
*Desmond was previously able to see the future but since the implosion of the hatch now only has flashes
All very interesting ideas but I will say to #3 where you say he realized that the outcome is destined, or to others who say he traveled but he can't change the outcomes....just remember this....

When Desmond yelled at the bartender to duck the cricket bat that Jimmy had aimed at his head, he changed the outcome!  In the previous flash, Desmond had not warned the bartender, and Jimmy whacked him with the cricket bat.  Desmond changed that experience by warning him, which in turn, changed the outcome (because he himself got hit with the cricket bat, causing him to flash back to the island again). 

So Desmond DID change events, granted it was not a major event though.  The major event where Desmond heeded Ms. Hawkings advice and DID NOT ask Penny to marry him, he did not change the outcome. 

So the question is, does changing the outcome of small events,  no matter how insignificant, create the 'butterfly effect', or does only changing the large events create turbulence in the Universe which then has to "course-corrected"?

I don't pretend to 'know' who is right or wrong in this debate, but to answer your thoughts about the bartender, how do we know that he didn't get home that night and get clocked in the head by his wife for some reason thereby setting the universe right again?  Would this be a petty and trivial thing for the powers that be to do in the course of their 'correcting'?  .
Not sure what you're getting at, here.  The bartender being "clocked in the head by his wife", as you say, would not affect the Universe, because the bartender was not aware of any other potential outcomes.  The whole crux of the story was that Desmond was AWARE of past and future events, and his involvement in them.  Then by choosing to change or alter those past events, how did he affect the timeline?  It's one thing to "travel" to another time and not be aware of it (or forget your past life), it's quite another to be aware of your traveling and then change things from their intended outcome.  Ms. Hawking: "you do it because you're supposed to, Desmond".
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 05:08:35 PM
I think there are thousands of Desmonds and they can interchange their realities by getting smacked in the head and, when Jack, Hurley, and Kate left the island, they merged into a Jack, Hurley, and Kate in that reality (only now they begin to have memories of the island).  My head hurts! ??? ???
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: laklost on February 14, 2008, 06:06:45 PM
I think there are thousands of Desmonds and they can interchange their realities by getting smacked in the head and, when Jack, Hurley, and Kate left the island, they merged into a Jack, Hurley, and Kate in that reality (only now they begin to have memories of the island).  My head hurts! ??? ???

Whoa.  Here's hoping not!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 14, 2008, 09:04:18 PM
Anybody watching the recap episode.  Just comfirmed that that Faradays flash occured before he made it to the island and the women was not his wife but his care taker. 

So he is crazy and these are not flash forwards
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: E-Rich on February 14, 2008, 09:05:47 PM
Yep - just got on to say the same thing.  These recaps can be very helpful!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 14, 2008, 09:06:44 PM
Yep - just got on to say the same thing.  These recaps can be very helpful!

narration??
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 14, 2008, 09:08:06 PM
Yep - just got on to say the same thing.  These recaps can be very helpful!

narration??


what????????????
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: cbw420 on February 14, 2008, 09:10:11 PM
Yep - just got on to say the same thing.  These recaps can be very helpful!

narration??


what????????????

are they narrating with the pop-ups??

i just want to be sure when i smear it in the puffers face that we are seeing flashBACKS lol
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 14, 2008, 09:13:34 PM
Somewhat.  During that flashback seen.  It popped up and said.  This is Daniel Faraday he is a physist,  This took place sometime before he made it to the island.  The lady is not his wife but his(i forgot what he said, but basically nurse because he is crazy)
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: versed4every1 on February 14, 2008, 09:17:11 PM
they called her his caretaker.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 09:28:44 PM
but why is he crying?
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: versed4every1 on February 14, 2008, 09:31:19 PM
but why is he crying?

good question
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Creflo on February 14, 2008, 09:32:21 PM
Well, if you're to believe this imaginative thread, he has been watching the TV reveal of the wreckage having already lived through an experience on The Island and what you're seeing is really a flashforward, hence the topic title.

Or, maybe he's just an emotionally unstable person...which is certainly supported by the other scenes.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: E-Rich on February 14, 2008, 09:32:59 PM
because he's cookoo!
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: E-Rich on February 14, 2008, 09:33:34 PM
Well, if you're to believe this imaginative thread, he has been watching the TV reveal of the wreckage having already lived through an experience on The Island and what you're seeing is really a flashforward, hence the topic title.

Or, maybe he's just an emotionally unstable person...which is certainly supported by the other scenes.

Creflo - they just confirmed flashbacks on the recaps....sorry.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: footballmom10 on February 14, 2008, 09:33:53 PM
I have been reading this thread and I think that time is "blended" for these people....most in Desmond and to varying degrees in some others....but blended.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 14, 2008, 09:38:13 PM
Who needs caretakers-  crazy people or just older people or injured people.  Well he is not old he is not injured as we have seen, So my bet is that he is crazy.

SO thats why he was crying.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: E-Rich on February 14, 2008, 09:41:21 PM
agreed.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: Sunflower on February 15, 2008, 12:06:06 AM
Well, if you're to believe this imaginative thread, he has been watching the TV reveal of the wreckage having already lived through an experience on The Island and what you're seeing is really a flashforward, hence the topic title.

Or, maybe he's just an emotionally unstable person...which is certainly supported by the other scenes.

Creflo - they just confirmed flashbacks on the recaps....sorry.
Exactly!  Watching it now..case closed.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: jugdish on February 21, 2008, 03:21:37 PM
In an interview on ew.com, Cuse and lindelof said that "the narratives are always in chronological order. We are not going to mix narrative order." This would then exclude flashbacks and flashforwards in the same episode.
Title: Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
Post by: lostfan777 on February 21, 2008, 03:32:00 PM
In an interview on ew.com, Cuse and lindelof said that "the narratives are always in chronological order. We are not going to mix narrative order." This would then exclude flashbacks and flashforwards in the same episode.

I am willing to bet that the diehards will respond to you that you can have a flashback, THEN a flashforward and they would still be in chronological order. 

I read the same interview and came to the same conclusion as you.  They are not going to deliberately confuse us so that we have NO idea what's going on, they just want to surprise us now and then.  Seems simple enough to me.  :-\