Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 4 => Episode 4x02 => Topic started by: jdwm73 on February 08, 2008, 12:48:03 AM

Title: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: jdwm73 on February 08, 2008, 12:48:03 AM
Any thoughts about the location of the plane seeming a bit off from what general acceptance has been thus far?  Does it match up with the fact that the deceased man underwater was clearly not the pilot?  Was it Widmore/whomever planting a dummy plane with various dead people?  The TV did say there was no way to recover the bodies.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 08, 2008, 04:19:57 AM
I find it highly suspicious that a Sydney - LA flight somehow managed to end up in the Sunda Trench, several thousand miles to the NW in the Indian Ocean, as a direct flight path would take it NE over the open Pacific.  If whoever is "covering it up" wanted to make it look believable, why would they dump the plane where it would only raise more questions?  Surely there are some fine trenches around Fiji.  So, is this another plane entirely, perhaps a Sydney - London flight that crashed in another timeline, but somehow got trapped in this timeline?  Just like the polar bear and the little bunny rabbits...
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: kmetzk92 on February 08, 2008, 09:42:23 AM
ok.. obviously there are two choices here.. either the plane site is fake and has been setup to make people believe everyone is dead... or that is actually not flight 815 and it is a flight that had been lost before and had never been found.. i dont think anyone would want to cover up the death of the survivors on the island, and even if they would .. they are being rescued anyways so the fake plane crash wouldnt make sense.. basically i think that the plane found in the Sunda Trench is very much real and is from a different time period, when a different plane other then flight 815 was lost....
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Maxor127 on February 08, 2008, 09:55:07 AM
Different time period as in different dimension or historical era or it's just a different plane?  Kind of hard to misplace two planes.

It's definitely an Oceanic plane and all planes are clearly marked and have numbers so they can be identified.  So it being a different plane that's getting confused with 815 seems most unlikely of all.  So to me, the two choices would be either a) there was a cover up and someone planted a fake 815 plane down there, which would be extremely expensive and depending on whether the bodies in there are real or not, very f'ed up.  Or b) the space/time continuum multi-dimensional teleporting cloning theories are true and somehow two 815s exist, one ended up on the island and everyone lived and the other crashed in the ocean and everyone died.  Since Frank seems convinced that the pilot is different, then it seems things shift towards choice A.  But they've also been playing up the pseudoscience aspects of the show lately, so I don't know.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Blackrock Bob on February 08, 2008, 10:25:00 AM
Everytime I go off on a timetravel or the dead live tangent, I get slapped down.

I say it is a fake plane that was planted by the same people that are behind the Frieghter/chopper people from last night's show. Who that is, I have no clue. Dharma/Hanso/Widmore/CIA
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Ladybug on February 08, 2008, 10:40:45 AM
would there have been more than one "pilot?"  because we met the pilot, (played by greg guttenburg) and he was killed by smokey.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: *MaZ* on February 08, 2008, 10:48:00 AM
I think it's not 815. The Brit girl on the freighter said she didn't either, no matter in how many languages she read it...it's got to mean something! In the other hand, a set up of that magnitute, a whole plane fuselage and real bodies to go with it sounds quite impossible...how do you transport and sink an airliner full of dead bodies????
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 10:49:13 AM
I think it is a cover up story. some one wants the world to forget about the Losties.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: lostfan777 on February 08, 2008, 12:42:49 PM
What I got out of this episode was this:

The finding of the plane was genuine, or they wouldn't have shown us the actual underwater footage and the 'surprised' crew that found it.

The pilot is not the pilot we know, they made that clear from the drunk pilot's dramatic reaction.

Naomi knew the Losties might be there (I was wrong about this one, I thought she was out of the loop! :-\)  but Abaddon insisted that the passengers were confirmed dead.

Charlotte was not surprised at the Dharma find in the desert and even seemed to know that the collar would be there.

The variety of people they sent to the island clearly shows that they know what to expect on the island; ghostbuster, anthropologist, physicist, talented (though often drunk) pilot.....

So the answer is clearly that the plane and bodies were planted by Dharma or related company to divert attention from the island OR the plane is actually 815 from another timeline and either the drunk pilot did fly the plane or the original pilot wasn't married in this timeline......

I guess this doesn't get us anywhere, does it?   ???  Sorry!
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: puff6962 on February 08, 2008, 12:49:04 PM
That doesn't make sense Jugdish as one of the BOAT PEOPLE, the pilot of the helicopter, was shown phoning the authorities in reference to that NOT being 815.  If the boaties are part of the cover-up, then why would he work for them?  
 
I haven't worked out my ideas on this one.  This was the Motherload of mind-f's loaded with easter eggs and paradigm shifts.  This is what Lost was missing last season.

I do think it plausible that what we saw (and have been labelling flash-backs) may have been Desmond type experiences occurring to those boaties shown (except Naomi, who died on the island).  So, they were in fack flash realities....the boaties have been projected back into a separate reality similar to the one the original and some time back.  Their memories coincide with their known pasts (like Desmond) except they begin to get perculations of their island memories.  This would explain Faraday crying.

The Naomi flash was clearly a flashback.

Abaddon and Naomi were shown in a big empty white room like Jim Carry and Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty.  Abaddon is the gatekeeper of Sheole (or however you spell that).

Mulitple realities, it's the only way to fly.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Savior on February 08, 2008, 01:03:06 PM
Quote
That doesn't make sense Jugdish as one of the BOAT PEOPLE, the pilot of the helicopter, was shown phoning the authorities in reference to that NOT being 815.  If the boaties are part of the cover-up, then why would he work for them? 
 
I haven't worked out my ideas on this one.  This was the Motherload of mind-f's loaded with easter eggs and paradigm shifts.  This is what Lost was missing last season.

I do think it plausible that what we saw (and have been labelling flash-backs) may have been Desmond type experiences occurring to those boaties shown (except Naomi, who died on the island).  So, they were in fack flash realities....the boaties have been projected back into a separate reality similar to the one the original and some time back.  Their memories coincide with their known pasts (like Desmond) except they begin to get perculations of their island memories.  This would explain Faraday crying.

The Naomi flash was clearly a flashback.

Abaddon and Naomi were shown in a big empty white room like Jim Carry and Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty.  Abaddon is the gatekeeper of Sheole (or however you spell that).

Mulitple realities, it's the only way to fly

That could explain Eko being raised by his grandmother, and ending dying in both realities due to drugs related issues.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 01:04:00 PM
That doesn't make sense Jugdish as one of the BOAT PEOPLE, the pilot of the helicopter, was shown phoning the authorities in reference to that NOT being 815.  If the boaties are part of the cover-up, then why would he work for them?  


abbadon told naomi in her flashback that the losties were dead, so to me, the cover up had already begun, THEN we were shown the 4 people "picked" to go in with naomi to the island by abbadon and she questions it, so what i'm grasping is that the drunken pilot didnt know of the cover up and the only reason he was picked was because he was dumb enough to call and say he knew the plane was a fake, so now Oceanic/Dharma had to scoop him up in order to keep him quiet

did this make sense???
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: kissinggabriela on February 08, 2008, 01:11:13 PM
another minor way that I thought they were trying to show that the plane was fake was when when Frank was dropping the toy airplane into the aquarium and the plane would flip over, it realy seemed that they were trying to show that if 815 fell in the water it would have flipped over ...and thus we know that the plane and its placement was fake
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 08, 2008, 01:26:05 PM
Maxor127 makes a good point that the sub footage of the plane found in the Sunda Trench would've shown the plane's marking's & designation.  As they obviously matched the plane's from Flight 815, we know it's the same plane.  Of course they could be faked, but I'm not sure it'd even be possible to stage such an accident, whatever the sums spent.  Someone would notice a large salvage-type ship slowly toting a plane out to sea from even a nearby port.  And how to get it from airstrip to port, but by some heavy equipment like we use to move the space shuttle? The locals would surely notice that.  Alternatively, it would be rather hard to dupe a planefull of people to crash themselves into the ocean, then expect to plane to come to rest at the bottom of a miles-deep trench nearly in one piece, with the bodies all nicely arrayed in the plane where they were when it went down.  No, I think the only 'logical' explanation is the alternate timeframe theory, perhaps with a side of teleportation.  Both sci-fi tenets have been shown in the show (Des's & Charlie's alt realities, the teleporting bunnies).  And neither contravene the Producer's prohibition against time travel.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 08, 2008, 01:28:48 PM
Good catch on the possible parallel lives of Eko, one in Africa and another in America, but both beset by drugs & murder.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2008, 02:03:04 PM
A few things,

1) Puff, what are you talking about I never said the boat people were part of the coverup. I said there was a coverup. I am not sure who is behind it yet. It could oceanic, or a dharma/hanso/widmore type people. Not sure yet. But I believe the plane was put there as a fake and is not any type of different time line.

2)I guarentee everyone that all the explanations are not going to be, "it was a different timline, people are flashing back through their lives" it just does not fit every situation. Desmond has had these experiences, not everyone is.

3)Lions, if they were going to do a coverup, fake the crash they would of painted the markings on them as part of the cover up. It does not mean it has to be the same plane.

4) cbw420, I agree. Abbadon denials does show that the coverup has begun.

Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: honeymfw on February 08, 2008, 02:19:21 PM
The number was actually a clue on FIND 815.  Yes, I called the number and got the recorded message.  The FIND 815 was like the lost experience.  Apparently this game took place before the airing of the first S4 episode.  So if there was someone answering the phone I guess you would have got a clue while playing the game. 

Did anyone play this game?  If so, could someone tell me what you are suppose to do with all of the clues
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 08, 2008, 02:28:40 PM
Regarding points 2) & 3):

2) We've clearly seen in his flashbacks that Charlie has been pulled (by Des?) into alternate timelines, with slight but noticeable differences.  No, it doesn't have to fit everybody/every situation, but rather those in closer proximity show greater effects.

3) My point on the coverup was that logistically it'd be nearly impossible to achieve such a 'clean' crash site with no evidence or witnesses to such a massive operation.  Plus, why plant the plane thousands of miles from the intended flighpath from Sydney to LA?  Hence, I'm discounting the likelihood of the coverup theory.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 08, 2008, 02:48:23 PM
I like the following post from losteastereggs, that elegantly connects the events of prior seasons to the effects on the timeline(s) we're increasingly being shown...

Anonymous said...
The 1st thing I thought was that it DID sound like Ms. Klugh. I wrote a theory back a few months about String theory here it is:
"string theory" was something that scientists were "over the moon" about in the 60's and 70's - OK excuse the pun... String theory attempts to further explain the dynamics of Quantum Gravity. String theory makes things like black-holes, time travel or dimensional travel a real possibility. There is the possibility in string theory and the more advanced M theory that other dimensions do exist.

Now for the Hey, I'm just watching a TV show explanation; Maybe the Dharma people were working on things all related to string theory and its relevance to gravity and electromagnetism. Maybe they messed with the electromagnetic field around the earth causing the "incident" and used the Magnet in the hatch keep different dimensions from touching each other (think of the strings on a harp being different dimensions) and during a "system failure" the dimensions do touch each other. Maybe after initially having someone enter the numbers, they had an automatic system and that's why the other's didn't seem to be concerned about the hatch. maybe that system was destroyed when John smashed the computer. When there is an actual system failure, things from other dimensions get pulled into the one where the hatch and the island are. - WNGYPSY

Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:05:00 PM


...hence, the plane from an alternate dimension, the same plane as Flight 815 in this dimension, got pulled into our dimension, along with Flight 815, when Des was late in inputting the numbers.  And yeah, John blowing up the Swan entirely could cause ripples among the dimensions, manifested by alternate timelines in a state of flux that can be changed/chosen from by a powerful few at the locus on this island (leaders like Ben, John or Jack; martyrs like Charlie; the lucky like Hurley; keystones line Des).
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: *MaZ* on February 08, 2008, 03:22:51 PM
I just re-watched the epi, and I'm pretty sure the plane was planted. The very first line the guy is the sub says is:"According to our guy's map, it should be around here..." So somoene gave them a supposed "treasure map", and voilá! By coincidence it's where the crashed plane is!
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: eelpie62 on February 08, 2008, 03:26:52 PM
...how do you transport and sink an airliner full of dead bodies????

The same way that you raise a submarine full of dead bodies, but you start at the back of the operator's manual and work towards the front. I'm sure that Paik Heavy Industries has something they could have used.

I think that our first introduction to Frank is an imortant image: he's dropping a fake (toy in this case) jetliner into an aquarium.
The plane had been w/o instruments for a while before the crash, presumedly that would give the people behind the cover up leeway in their choice for location.
A well planned cover-up would have to be believable and the fact that 815 went silent hours before the crash would give the conspirators an opportunity to dump the fake plane well away from where the real one went down.
They wouldn't want any salvage crews to be anywhere near the real plane so they probably took flight time to when the plane went silent and found a deep ocean trench within that radius in which to dump the decoy.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: solost on February 08, 2008, 04:22:05 PM
Can someone check this out. I watched the ROV footage several time but I can't be sure. Is the pilot sitting in the correct seat? It looks like he is in the copilots seat. By the way, where is the copilot? Have we ever seen him?
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: pauinha6 on February 08, 2008, 04:38:22 PM
I think it is a cover up story. some one wants the world to forget about the Losties.

 I am obligated to say it: I AGREE WITH JUGGY!!! :) :D

ok, just a thought for all you ppl: don't you think that ppl doing a coverup that involved a MASSIVE plain would do it somewhere where the rest of the world was not observing carefully??? i mean, if the authorities are looking for the plain on the suposed path from Sydney to LA, they HAD to do a cover up somewhere far away! how could they get a plain there and cover it up without othe rppl noticing????

And there have been several stories about flights and ships that lost their way around the sunda trench and all around that area.
You should all check Find 815 (this years ARG) for the story about Amelia Earheart and how it's somewhat similar to flight 815...

The Sunda Trench area is even considered to be a second Bermuda Triangle! plains, ships, many loose their direction, not knowing where is the north and appearing many miles off course when they find themselfs again, if they ever do!

Find 815 was not as extensive as the TLE but it was very very informative about all of that :)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 04:48:43 PM
I think it is a cover up story. some one wants the world to forget about the Losties.

 I am obligated to say it: I AGREE WITH JUGGY!!! :) :D

ok, just a thought for all you ppl: don't you think that ppl doing a coverup that involved a MASSIVE plane would do it somewhere where the rest of the world was not observing carefully??? i mean, if the authorities are looking for the plane on the suposed path from Sydney to LA, they HAD to do a cover up somewhere far away! how could they get a plane there and cover it up without othe rppl noticing????

And there have been several stories about flights and ships that lost their way around the sunda trench and all around that area.
You should all check Find 815 (this years ARG) for the story about Amelia Earheart and how it's somewhat similar to flight 815...

The Sunda Trench area is even considered to be a second Bermuda Triangle! planes, ships, many loose their direction, not knowing where is the north and appearing many miles off course when they find themselfs again, if they ever do!

Find 815 was not as extensive as the TLE but it was very very informative about all of that :)

fixed!
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: pauinha6 on February 08, 2008, 05:26:06 PM
fixed!

 did u fix me?? LOL
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 05:34:06 PM
fixed!

 did u fix me?? LOL

i just fixed the spelling of plane, from plain to plane lol
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: CastawayCayley on February 08, 2008, 05:43:03 PM
I think it is a cover up story. some one wants the world to forget about the Losties.

 I am obligated to say it: I AGREE WITH JUGGY!!! :) :D

ok, just a thought for all you ppl: don't you think that ppl doing a coverup that involved a MASSIVE plain would do it somewhere where the rest of the world was not observing carefully??? i mean, if the authorities are looking for the plain on the suposed path from Sydney to LA, they HAD to do a cover up somewhere far away! how could they get a plain there and cover it up without othe rppl noticing????

And there have been several stories about flights and ships that lost their way around the sunda trench and all around that area.
You should all check Find 815 (this years ARG) for the story about Amelia Earheart and how it's somewhat similar to flight 815...

The Sunda Trench area is even considered to be a second Bermuda Triangle! plains, ships, many loose their direction, not knowing where is the north and appearing many miles off course when they find themselfs again, if they ever do!

Find 815 was not as extensive as the TLE but it was very very informative about all of that :)

Considering our dear Pauhina posts in the middle of the night in a language that is not her primary one, and contributes much to this site, especially by keeping us well up to date on the Find815 arg, I don't think it particularly matters if she spells it plain or plane.  ;D
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 05:52:28 PM
I think it is a cover up story. some one wants the world to forget about the Losties.

 I am obligated to say it: I AGREE WITH JUGGY!!! :) :D

ok, just a thought for all you ppl: don't you think that ppl doing a coverup that involved a MASSIVE plain would do it somewhere where the rest of the world was not observing carefully??? i mean, if the authorities are looking for the plain on the suposed path from Sydney to LA, they HAD to do a cover up somewhere far away! how could they get a plain there and cover it up without othe rppl noticing????

And there have been several stories about flights and ships that lost their way around the sunda trench and all around that area.
You should all check Find 815 (this years ARG) for the story about Amelia Earheart and how it's somewhat similar to flight 815...

The Sunda Trench area is even considered to be a second Bermuda Triangle! plains, ships, many loose their direction, not knowing where is the north and appearing many miles off course when they find themselfs again, if they ever do!

Find 815 was not as extensive as the TLE but it was very very informative about all of that :)

Considering our dear Pauhina posts in the middle of the night in a language that is not her primary one, and contributes much to this site, especially by keeping us well up to date on the Find815 arg, I don't think it particularly matters if she spells it plain or plane.  ;D

sorry miss moderator, i guess my LOL's didnt show my humor

also miss mod, this is the 2nd time in the last two days, you have attacked me

i dont find it fair at all, if you dont like what i post, dont read it

i mean thats what i get told right?
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: pauinha6 on February 08, 2008, 06:26:40 PM
 sorry, i didn't notice i typed plain instead of plane LOLOLOL

i guess my brain is worse than i thought LOLOLOLOl

back to therapy for me :D :D :D

thx CC :-*

don't get all fired up cw! don't need to! thx for fixing me ;)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: cbw420 on February 08, 2008, 06:41:02 PM
sorry, i didn't notice i typed plain instead of plane LOLOLOL

i guess my brain is worse than i thought LOLOLOLOl

back to therapy for me :D :D :D

thx CC :-*

don't get all fired up cw! don't need to! thx for fixing me ;)

you dont remember do you??? last season?? LOL

i will have to dig up the post :)

i'm not fired up, i'm actually in quite a good mood today

Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: pauinha6 on February 08, 2008, 06:52:32 PM
sorry, i didn't notice i typed plain instead of plane LOLOLOL

i guess my brain is worse than i thought LOLOLOLOl

back to therapy for me :D :D :D

thx CC :-*

don't get all fired up cw! don't need to! thx for fixing me ;)

you dont remember do you??? last season?? LOL

i will have to dig up the post :)

i'm not fired up, i'm actually in quite a good mood today



 no, i don't remember, my memory sucks very very badly LOL

please dig it up for me :)


well, it's friday, what's not to be on a good mood :D

and i just watched the epi and i LUVD it, so.... all is good :) :) :)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Foxyschic on February 08, 2008, 07:09:27 PM
I like the following post from losteastereggs, that elegantly connects the events of prior seasons to the effects on the timeline(s) we're increasingly being shown...

Anonymous said...
The 1st thing I thought was that it DID sound like Ms. Klugh. I wrote a theory back a few months about String theory here it is:
"string theory" was something that scientists were "over the moon" about in the 60's and 70's - OK excuse the pun... String theory attempts to further explain the dynamics of Quantum Gravity. String theory makes things like black-holes, time travel or dimensional travel a real possibility. There is the possibility in string theory and the more advanced M theory that other dimensions do exist.

Now for the Hey, I'm just watching a TV show explanation; Maybe the Dharma people were working on things all related to string theory and its relevance to gravity and electromagnetism. Maybe they messed with the electromagnetic field around the earth causing the "incident" and used the Magnet in the hatch keep different dimensions from touching each other (think of the strings on a harp being different dimensions) and during a "system failure" the dimensions do touch each other. Maybe after initially having someone enter the numbers, they had an automatic system and that's why the other's didn't seem to be concerned about the hatch. maybe that system was destroyed when John smashed the computer. When there is an actual system failure, things from other dimensions get pulled into the one where the hatch and the island are. - WNGYPSY

Saturday, February 10, 2007 4:05:00 PM


...hence, the plane from an alternate dimension, the same plane as Flight 815 in this dimension, got pulled into our dimension, along with Flight 815, when Des was late in inputting the numbers.  And yeah, John blowing up the Swan entirely could cause ripples among the dimensions, manifested by alternate timelines in a state of flux that can be changed/chosen from by a powerful few at the locus on this island (leaders like Ben, John or Jack; martyrs like Charlie; the lucky like Hurley; keystones line Des).

So, if I understand you correctly, it is actually possible for several other strings of losties to end up in the mix.  One of the things that i struggle with in the idea of alternate realities, is that there are no rules to it.  It is science fiction. So, who's to say how many alternate lives Jack could lead? 

I lean more towards the paranormal--but within a real context.  Like the idea that Hurley is just mentally unstable and is imagining conversations with Charlie.  So, for the moment, I have to agree with the idea that it is a cover up. 
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: bobfromplumbing on February 08, 2008, 11:54:27 PM
One thing I noticed when I watched this episode for the fourth or fifth time, when Frank calls the Oceanic hotline and finally gets the "supervisor" the switch from the operator occurs awfully quick (IMO), and the voice on the other end sounds a bit creepy.  No "this is supervisor such and such and such, how may i help you."  His tone of voice, and the things he says sound suspect.  My guess is the boaties, or whomever performed the cover-up, were monitoring communication, waiting for someone to blow their cover.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: LostAndSeek on February 09, 2008, 12:20:39 AM
It's Abaddan, isn't it? I thought it was the same voice and that this was the start of the pilot ended up on the team.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: TXFlyboy on February 09, 2008, 02:00:56 AM
Just a point of information:

Maxor127
"Different time period as in different dimension or historical era or it's just a different plane?  Kind of hard to misplace two planes.

It's definitely an Oceanic plane and all planes are clearly marked and have numbers so they can be identified.  So it being a different plane that's getting confused with 815 seems most unlikely of all.  So to me, the two choices would be either a) there was a cover up and someone planted a fake 815 plane down there, which would be extremely expensive and depending on whether the bodies in there are real or not, very f'ed up."

It is true that all aircraft do have registration numbers commonly refered to as "N" Numbers.  While those of us in general aviation do use our "N" number to identify ourselves to Air Traffic Control, commercial airlines use a "Flight" Number to identify themselves to ATC.  Hence a commercial aircraft with a "N" number of say N-4815  can actually be Flight 815 one day say on a flight from Sydney to LA and the exact same plane on a return trip from LA to Sydney the following day could be Flight 518.  Same plane just different flight numbers.  Because we never actually saw any N numbers on the plane that crashed or the one at the bottom of the trench we cannot discount the possibility that the plane in the trench is a plant.

*MaZ*
"I think it's not 815. The Brit girl on the freighter said she didn't either, no matter in how many languages she read it...it's got to mean something! In the other hand, a set up of that magnitute, a whole plane fuselage and real bodies to go with it sounds quite impossible...how do you transport and sink an airliner full of dead bodies?"

It is easier to tranport a plane than one would think.  The Boeing 777-300 and Airbus 380 are roughly the same size and share a similar empty weight.  Both planes have the capacity to seat the number of passengers listed.  Both are about 250' long with wingspans of 200'  The wings are removable.  The emply weight of each aircraft is about 170,000 lbs empty.  Todays cargo container ships are as long as 400 feet and can carry up to 150,000 tons.  It would be easy to put a plane on one of those.  As a matter of fact that is how they moved the plane they used on the beach crash sight from CA. to HI.   Anyway in theory it would be quite easy for Paik Heavy Industries or Widmore Industries to transport a fuselage.  Many of todays Cargo ships have crane systems built onto the ship.

As far as it being full of passengers, I believe the only actual body we saw was that of a body sitting in the pilots seat (the left seat).

Since the episode last year when Naomi told the losties the plane had been found in the trench I thougth it was a cover up.  I still do.


Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Maxor127 on February 09, 2008, 08:56:35 AM
I'm kind of stuck in the middle between it being planted and some freaky space time stuff going on.  Both seem too impossible, but I don't see any other explanation.  My biggest problem with the theory that it was planted and there's a huge cover-up is where do you get 325+ bodies from.  I'm assuming they just left the bodies down there and there was no practical way to recover the plane or bodies, although you'd think they'd want to investigate what caused the crash, especially if so much media interest was surrounding it.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: LostAndSeek on February 09, 2008, 09:10:48 AM
I think it was either physically planted or fake input was transmitted to the ROVs.

I seem to be a cult of one on the latter hypothesis....

On the former, I worry about the bodies too, but the coverer uppers probably wouldn't need hundreds of bodies. Just enough to be convincing. Maybe just the pilot and a sprinkling inside the windows.....
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: TXFlyboy on February 09, 2008, 10:01:00 AM
It has never been stated they recovered the bodies.  If you recall when the losties first met Naomi and she was telling them the plane had been found she made it a point to say how deep it was.  Too deep to make a recovery of anything of any significant size. The only body we have seen so far is that of the pilot named Seth.  If you can fake a plane crash you could certainly fake a body or two - enought to convince the general public there are what appear to be bodies.

The NTSB does investigate all crashes with what they call an Incident Report.  Problem here is the inaccessibility of the plane.  So any report on their part would only be specuation.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: dizzyb on February 09, 2008, 07:05:58 PM
Just a point of information:

Maxor127
"Different time period as in different dimension or historical era or it's just a different plane?  Kind of hard to misplace two planes.

It's definitely an Oceanic plane and all planes are clearly marked and have numbers so they can be identified.  So it being a different plane that's getting confused with 815 seems most unlikely of all.  So to me, the two choices would be either a) there was a cover up and someone planted a fake 815 plane down there, which would be extremely expensive and depending on whether the bodies in there are real or not, very f'ed up."

It is true that all aircraft do have registration numbers commonly refered to as "N" Numbers.  While those of us in general aviation do use our "N" number to identify ourselves to Air Traffic Control, commercial airlines use a "Flight" Number to identify themselves to ATC.  Hence a commercial aircraft with a "N" number of say N-4815  can actually be Flight 815 one day say on a flight from Sydney to LA and the exact same plane on a return trip from LA to Sydney the following day could be Flight 518.  Same plane just different flight numbers.  Because we never actually saw any N numbers on the plane that crashed or the one at the bottom of the trench we cannot discount the possibility that the plane in the trench is a plant.

*MaZ*
"I think it's not 815. The Brit girl on the freighter said she didn't either, no matter in how many languages she read it...it's got to mean something! In the other hand, a set up of that magnitute, a whole plane fuselage and real bodies to go with it sounds quite impossible...how do you transport and sink an airliner full of dead bodies?"

It is easier to tranport a plane than one would think.  The Boeing 777-300 and Airbus 380 are roughly the same size and share a similar empty weight.  Both planes have the capacity to seat the number of passengers listed.  Both are about 250' long with wingspans of 200'  The wings are removable.  The emply weight of each aircraft is about 170,000 lbs empty.  Todays cargo container ships are as long as 400 feet and can carry up to 150,000 tons.  It would be easy to put a plane on one of those.  As a matter of fact that is how they moved the plane they used on the beach crash sight from CA. to HI.   Anyway in theory it would be quite easy for Paik Heavy Industries or Widmore Industries to transport a fuselage.  Many of todays Cargo ships have crane systems built onto the ship.

As far as it being full of passengers, I believe the only actual body we saw was that of a body sitting in the pilots seat (the left seat).

Since the episode last year when Naomi told the losties the plane had been found in the trench I thougth it was a cover up.  I still do.



dude you quite literally rock actually... :*
can i add - although Paula did already - I think the plane was planted so very far off the flight path so that it would not be found by regular air traffic. sure there may be deep trenches closer to where the flight should have been, but a big ole freighter and crane depositing an aeroplane serupticipusly might look a smidgen suspicious....
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 10, 2008, 07:37:52 AM
Thanks TXFlyboy. Your information on cargo ships' capacity to transport a fuselage has me reconsidering the logistical possibility of a coverup placing the plane found in the Sunda Trench.  And sure, if you can port an entire plane secretly, you probably have the ability to find some corpses to plant, betting that decomposition will do its thing.  And easing the fake plane into the water would be more likely to result in the consolidated debri field seen in the ROV footage. 

I'm still perplexed why the Sunda Trench.  It's near one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.  Further, t's not just off the Sydney-LA flight path, it's the wrong direction entirely.  Radar control records would surely disprove such an anomaly.  If any 'ole deep trench will do, why not the Tonga Trench, which extends north from New Zealand, and lies in the flight path.  I wouldn't worry about whether air traffic passing overhead might see- kind of hard to see 5 miles beneath you, especially if they dump the plane at night, possibly during a window when no flights are scheduled to be pass overhead. The bigger worry is avoiding surface search vessels.  Easily solved: it's a big ocean.

It's possible that while the writers were crafting the Find 815 website storyline, they came across this '2nd Bermuda Triangle around the Sunda Trench' nugget.  Of course there have been lots of ships & planes lost in the area, given the relatively heavy traffic in this busy shipping lane, frequency of cyclones, etc.  Anyhow, the writers probably decided to go with the Sunda Trench for the better backstory, thinking that the vast majority of the audience either wouldn't notice the geographical discrepancy, or would be like the typical American who's clueless about geography.  I look forward to seeing whether they explain why the Sunda Trench was chosen, if this indeed turns out to be a coverup.  Tho, keeping the Orchid video in mind, I'm still holding some hope that during the electromagnetic accident caused by Des, the Island cloned the ENTIRE Flight 815, just like with the failed teleportation/accidental cloning of Bunny #15.  Extrapolating, could the Losties be the clones, not meant to ever leave the island, while the original Flight 815 got teleported to the bottom of the Sunda Trench?  Egad, it's starting to sound like a Star Trek storyline:

http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-voy/s5/oblivion.php
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: hyperform on February 10, 2008, 01:25:33 PM
btw, I went back and watched the scene in the cockpit with the pilot in the pilot episode, just cuz I was bored and wanted to check. It was almost like he was trying to cover his left hand the whole scene, the only way that i saw that he did have a wedding ring on was by pauseing at just the right moment. Its almost like they knew this would come up at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: puff6962 on February 10, 2008, 07:43:21 PM
The airplane from the pilot episode is a lockeed L-1011.  You can see this due to the third engine at the tail rudder.  In the opening scene this week, the airplane identified as O 815 lacks that third engine.  It is a Boeing 777. 

Prop error?
Bad cover-up job?
Wrong jet crash?
Different reality?

You know my thoughts on this one.  There was no reason for the model used in the opening scene not to have matched a L-1011.  The difference was purposeful.  Magic box, new reality.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 11, 2008, 01:32:49 AM
Nice catch on the different plane models. I also noticed that the way to plane was discovered in Find 815 is not how it was discovered at the beginniong of Confirmed Dead.  Our new Aussie character Sam is piloting the ROV in Find 815, while there's two guys with American accents (and two ROVs?) in Confirmed Dead.  They don't show the plane, tho, in Find 815.

How is it that Sam, who walks onto the expedition last-minute out of the blue, gets to pilot the ROV? I'd think that is a job for a trained ROV pilot.  Watching Oscar Talbot's face as Sam discovers the plane in Find 815, tho, it's clear he was not surprised to find it.  Almost as if he schemed to have the plane found this way, using the Black Rock search as a red herring...
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: IFP on February 11, 2008, 03:17:21 AM
Just curious what others might think - did anyone find it odd that the found plane was broken apart in the exact same places as what we witnessed? i.e. the tail section was broken off, cleanly, and the cockpit section. If this was a cover up, then a) the cover-uppers knew exactly how the real plane broke apart and b) felt it needed to be replicated precisely for some reason. Odd, no? It's clearly not just the gathered remains of the real crash because Jack and Kate were hanging out around part of it. Maybe the plane, as it was breaking up, did indeed clone and teleport somehow, like the polar bear in Tunisia? (assuming that that's what happened with the bear) Then again, Lost is very good at making things start to look a certain way, where you're certain you've caught on, and then pulling the rug out from under you with a massive WTF moment. That could apply to to the cover-up theory as well though, as alot of things do seem to point to a cover up.

end digression

so, did anyone else think the plane in the trench appeared to be split up exactly like what we saw happen to 815? I thought I even saw the circular black "burn" marks.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: lostfan777 on February 11, 2008, 11:39:50 AM
The airplane from the pilot episode is a lockeed L-1011.  You can see this due to the third engine at the tail rudder.  In the opening scene this week, the airplane identified as O 815 lacks that third engine.  It is a Boeing 777. 

Prop error?
Bad cover-up job?
Wrong jet crash?
Different reality?

You know my thoughts on this one.  There was no reason for the model used in the opening scene not to have matched a L-1011.  The difference was purposeful.  Magic box, new reality.

Nice catch about the different model planes, but I have to play devil's advocate here.  You're seeing this as evidence of split/two realities.  Why not see this as a hint that whoever staged a coverup had limitations to how many jumbo jets were available to sink into the ocean and they had to make due with what they had?  Or maybe it was a continuity error?

I'm not saying your theories are wrong.  I think the writers will hint at both possibilities for as long as they can to keep us on the edge of our seats (and at each others throats!  :D)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: DIZZYBECKSTER on February 11, 2008, 11:54:55 AM
does it need to be exactly the same plane? I'm sure the non lostaholics 'regular' people out there would accept the fact that it's an oceanic plane at the bottom of the south pacific.

Even within the LOST story, normal people would be just as convinced, they have no need to question it's authenticity.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: puff6962 on February 11, 2008, 01:09:47 PM
earlier airplane toys have had the third engine. 
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: IFP on February 11, 2008, 03:44:32 PM
Just curious what others might think - did anyone find it odd that the found plane was broken apart in the exact same places as what we witnessed? i.e. the tail section was broken off, cleanly, and the cockpit section. If this was a cover up, then a) the cover-uppers knew exactly how the real plane broke apart and b) felt it needed to be replicated precisely for some reason. Odd, no? It's clearly not just the gathered remains of the real crash because Jack and Kate were hanging out around part of it. Maybe the plane, as it was breaking up, did indeed clone and teleport somehow, like the polar bear in Tunisia? (assuming that that's what happened with the bear) Then again, Lost is very good at making things start to look a certain way, where you're certain you've caught on, and then pulling the rug out from under you with a massive WTF moment. That could apply to to the cover-up theory as well though, as alot of things do seem to point to a cover up.

end digression

so, did anyone else think the plane in the trench appeared to be split up exactly like what we saw happen to 815? I thought I even saw the circular black "burn" marks.

One more thing to add to this thought - I didn't notice before, but there also appears to be a hole in one of the front windows of the cockpit, which would have been where smoky pulled the pilot out - another striking similarity to the original 815's actual crash, as we saw it. I can't remember though, did Smoky smash that window in to get the pilot, or was the window already broken and he just used that opening to get in?
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: pauinha6 on February 11, 2008, 05:22:32 PM
One more thing to add to this thought - I didn't notice before, but there also appears to be a hole in one of the front windows of the cockpit, which would have been where smoky pulled the pilot out - another striking similarity to the original 815's actual crash, as we saw it. I can't remember though, did Smoky smash that window in to get the pilot, or was the window already broken and he just used that opening to get in?

 the window was already broken, the pilot used it to peak out and see what was making the strange noises when smokey snatched him off the plane and... made pilot soup :)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: cbw420 on February 11, 2008, 05:28:28 PM
just thought of this, although i do not stand by it too much

if ben was working with Abbadon & Co at some point, but went rogue on them (hence the reason they want to get ben) could these people have staged the crash with Ben's help, meaning couldn't have ben told them how the plane broke apart?? ben & the others did see it basically break apart in the sky ya know?? giving them a perfect oppurtunity to replicate the plane

(i dont buy into this too much, just threw it out there)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: LostAndSeek on February 11, 2008, 06:39:26 PM
Still chuckling at "pilot soup" from Paula.  ;D

I dunno what to make of the different planes. It's kind of a bit prop error when the Powers are normally so careful, but that's the way I'd lean. Are we absolutely sure of these differences? Seems like Frank would have picked up on that too. Surely he'd know what kind of plane he was gonna fly.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: hyperform on February 11, 2008, 10:24:34 PM
just thought of this, although i do not stand by it too much

if ben was working with Abbadon & Co at some point, but went rogue on them (hence the reason they want to get ben) could these people have staged the crash with Ben's help, meaning couldn't have ben told them how the plane broke apart?? ben & the others did see it basically break apart in the sky ya know?? giving them a perfect oppurtunity to replicate the plane

(i dont buy into this too much, just threw it out there)

thats an interesting point, I never considered the fact that ben might have something to do with the cover up. I mean its shown pretty clear that he doesnt want the losties to get off the island, this way their wouldnt ever be anyone proactively searching for survivors.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: Lion of Atreides on February 12, 2008, 07:59:21 PM
I like the theory, assuming there was a coverup, that those perpetrating it got the details from first hand information gathered on the island.  It doesn't have to be Ben who passes along the info, tho.  From Richard's passing of Sawyer's file to Locke behind Ben's back, we know that there are factions amongst the Others on the island. This suggests possibly anyone amongst the Otheres having a motive.  Of course there were multiple means to pass information to the real world, with access not necessarily limited to Ben. Multiple means, that is, until Locke came along.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: T Mack on February 12, 2008, 08:06:11 PM
Or b) the space/time continuum multi-dimensional teleporting cloning theories are true and somehow two 815s exist, one ended up on the island and everyone lived and the other crashed in the ocean and everyone died.  Since Frank seems convinced that the pilot is different, then it seems things shift towards choice A.  But they've also been playing up the pseudoscience aspects of the show lately, so I don't know.
BINGO!

Frank is seeing "himself" as the real pilot of THAT 815. That's why he thinks that the pilot is not his friend, sans wedding ring.  It's himself, because he has no wedding ring.  He thinks he was "supposed to be the pilot of the plane that day", when in actuality, he was.  He's seeing himself, dead in another timeline. (yikes)
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on February 12, 2008, 08:12:15 PM
Ok.  So lets say the plane in the Sunda Trench is from Timeline A, where all the passengers die, and the island is Timeline B.  We are watching a show based in Timeline B when we see them on the island.  But which timeline to they end up in in the flash forwards?  If they stay in timeline B, where the crash is still undiscovered, that could be their home free card...as in...there are no funny questions like how are you alive when we have video footage of all the dead passengers in the bottom of this trench.  BUT if they go back to timeline A they have a lot of explaining to do.  Maybe they can't go back to timeline A, because they're bodies exist there, only...dead.  Maybe that is what the orchid is all about?  Does anybody really know what time it is!
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: joshzam on February 12, 2008, 09:39:51 PM
Ok.  So lets say the plane in the Sunda Trench is from Timeline A, where all the passengers die, and the island is Timeline B.  We are watching a show based in Timeline B when we see them on the island.  But which timeline to they end up in in the flash forwards?  If they stay in timeline B, where the crash is still undiscovered, that could be their home free card...as in...there are no funny questions like how are you alive when we have video footage of all the dead passengers in the bottom of this trench.  BUT if they go back to timeline A they have a lot of explaining to do.  Maybe they can't go back to timeline A, because they're bodies exist there, only...dead.  Maybe that is what the orchid is all about?  Does anybody really know what time it is!

Does anybody really care
If so I can't imagine why
We've all got time enough to die
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: footballmom10 on February 12, 2008, 09:43:21 PM
Are you suggesting that the survivors really did die on the plane?
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: lostfan777 on February 13, 2008, 01:30:57 AM
just thought of this, although i do not stand by it too much

if ben was working with Abbadon & Co at some point, but went rogue on them (hence the reason they want to get ben) could these people have staged the crash with Ben's help, meaning couldn't have ben told them how the plane broke apart?? ben & the others did see it basically break apart in the sky ya know?? giving them a perfect oppurtunity to replicate the plane

(i dont buy into this too much, just threw it out there)

Someone pointed out that the two planes are different models.  If there are similarities between the two planes' damage, I think we are seeing what we want to see.  There is no reason to duplicate crash damage for a staged scene when no one is supposed to know there are two planes in the first place!  If the similarities are intentional, then it is more evidence for the followers of the parallel timeline theorists.  I think it would indicate that one reality had a slightly different plane with a different pilot, but both planes were destined to crash.  Again, this may be one of those times when we may be reading too much into things.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: LouE68 on February 13, 2008, 05:17:29 AM
I don't know if this has been discussed, and that if it means anything at all....
but...the guys controlling the ROV units says they are on a heading of 137. Ben told Michael to go on a heading of 325. Not that it has anyting to do with placement, but they are almost total opposites...two different directions of each other on a compass....it could mean something down the road, and it could mean nothing at all....just thought it odd, I don't know why...
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: T Mack on February 13, 2008, 09:52:34 AM
I don't know if this has been discussed, and that if it means anything at all....
but...the guys controlling the ROV units says they are on a heading of 137. Ben told Michael to go on a heading of 325. Not that it has anyting to do with placement, but they are almost total opposites...two different directions of each other on a compass....it could mean something down the road, and it could mean nothing at all....just thought it odd, I don't know why...
I'm glad someone posted the transcript of those guys in the ROV's, because I had a hard time understanding what they were saying.  There were some snippets of what they said that were oddly interesting, I'll agree.
Title: Re: Fake Plane is Not 815
Post by: hyperform on February 15, 2008, 12:51:29 AM
i cant for the life of me remember which episode this was in, but maybe you guys can help. i remember a flashback of the plane as it was going down and showing the pilot with a nav screen that kept going fuzzy, but showing a gps location of where they were (or maybe where they should be). can anyone remind me of what episode that was in.