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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x19 => Topic started by: Creflo on May 03, 2007, 12:18:29 PM

Title: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: Creflo on May 03, 2007, 12:18:29 PM
...or is the test such that you have to NOT murder someone.  This would explain why Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, and virtually every other castaway was NOT tapped to join the Society of Manipulators since they've all killed someone in the past.

Tricking someone into doing your dirty work not only doesn't count against you in this regard, it's worth bonus points to The Others.

Of course, Jack hasn't killed anyone yet (as far as we know) and he's not been tapped to join...

...or has he?
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: nothingbutsky on May 03, 2007, 12:24:35 PM
I don't think that killing or not has anything to do with becoming an Other...I think it's different for everybody. In Locke's case it was getting rid of Locke Sr. I guess...
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: MachThree on May 03, 2007, 12:29:29 PM
Creflo - as far as having killed someone before or not, I think among the main losties there are a few borderline cases...  Jack, who as far as we know never directly killed anyone, but allowed Adam Rutherford (Shannon's father) to die while he tried to save Sara.  Also Hurley, who I think came closest when he accidently caused the balcony to collapse (I think some of the other people on the balcony died).  Then we have a few others besides Locke who as far as we know haven't killed anyone - Rose, Bernard, Sun, Jin, Charlie, the now dearly departed Shannon and Boone, etc. 
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: char1 on May 03, 2007, 12:30:02 PM
...or was the point to get Locke to manipulate, (or con), someone else into killing him. 
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: DizzyIzzy on May 03, 2007, 03:22:19 PM
Why bring Cooper to the island.so Locke could kill him..why not just tell Locke that they had just found out that Cooper had died in a police shoot-out in Tallahasee?  Locke would be able to move on...and be whatever the Others thought he should be.  It might not be that Cooper be killed, but that Locke has to commit a sin and sacrifice his soul to be an other?
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: Ailiu on May 03, 2007, 03:37:26 PM
Does that mean the kidnapped tailies had to do something like that too?  Or are they not really part of the Other group? 

I find it very hard to believe that Emma and Zack (the 2 kids) would be able to kill someone or that the Others would even have them kill someone.  If those two are part of the Others proper now, it's more likely because they were adopted into the group, kind of like Alex was when she was a baby.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: Austruck on May 03, 2007, 05:24:50 PM
I still find it weird that the tailies who were kidnapped initially could stand there and watch Locke try to kill his father and not be horrified by the whole experience. What has happened to these people that they're all going along with a ritual like this?

Richard had said something about people having the guise of free will in coming to the island (like Juliet, who came freely but hadn't a CLUE what she was really getting into), and that being important. But those tailies were kidnapped right off the bat. I'm surprised that there don't seem to be any "rebels" among the kidnapped tailies.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: PrincessLeia on May 03, 2007, 05:27:32 PM
I still find it weird that the tailies who were kidnapped initially could stand there and watch Locke try to kill his father and not be horrified by the whole experience. What has happened to these people that they're all going along with a ritual like this?

Richard had said something about people having the guise of free will in coming to the island (like Juliet, who came freely but hadn't a CLUE what she was really getting into), and that being important. But those tailies were kidnapped right off the bat. I'm surprised that there don't seem to be any "rebels" among the kidnapped tailies.
I keep thinking about Karl.  He didn't seem to be in a position to exercise "free will" while strapped down & drugged in the brainwashing chamber. :-\
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: firemanandlostfan on May 03, 2007, 05:34:13 PM
I wonder when Karl will crop back up, its been like what 4 episodes since Sawyer let him go?
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: Ailiu on May 03, 2007, 05:43:28 PM
I still find it weird that the tailies who were kidnapped initially could stand there and watch Locke try to kill his father and not be horrified by the whole experience. What has happened to these people that they're all going along with a ritual like this?

Richard had said something about people having the guise of free will in coming to the island (like Juliet, who came freely but hadn't a CLUE what she was really getting into), and that being important. But those tailies were kidnapped right off the bat. I'm surprised that there don't seem to be any "rebels" among the kidnapped tailies.
I keep thinking about Karl.  He didn't seem to be in a position to exercise "free will" while strapped down & drugged in the brainwashing chamber. :-\
So perhaps the Tailies were brainwashed too?  I mentioned in the topic about Cindy that perhaps she was being drugged the way Claire appeared to be when she was kidnapped and at the Swan (or whatever hatch she was kept at).  Maybe that's why the Tailies are not rebeling.  Remeber Claire seemed pretty content with everything too when she was at the Swan.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: PrincessLeia on May 03, 2007, 05:47:11 PM
I need to go look up that topic, but I think Cindy may have been a plant from the start.  I'll post more in the other thread, though, so as not to hi-jack this one.  lol

I don't have this season's epi's recorded, but in the building where Karl was being held, there were several other rooms, correct?  It's possible that they were all being employed for the same purpose for different people. :-\  Just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: casino on May 04, 2007, 05:16:45 PM
I need to go look up that topic, but I think Cindy may have been a plant from the start.  I'll post more in the other thread, though, so as not to hi-jack this one.  lol

I don't have this season's epi's recorded, but in the building where Karl was being held, there were several other rooms, correct?  It's possible that they were all being employed for the same purpose for different people. :-\  Just thinking out loud.

I think you are right.  Cindy was a plant from the start, and I believe there was at least one more crew member that was, as well.  I think the Pilot was in on it, personally.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: PrincessLeia on May 04, 2007, 07:44:01 PM
I need to go look up that topic, but I think Cindy may have been a plant from the start.  I'll post more in the other thread, though, so as not to hi-jack this one.  lol

I don't have this season's epi's recorded, but in the building where Karl was being held, there were several other rooms, correct?  It's possible that they were all being employed for the same purpose for different people. :-\  Just thinking out loud.

I think you are right.  Cindy was a plant from the start, and I believe there was at least one more crew member that was, as well.  I think the Pilot was in on it, personally.
Hmmm....THAT is original & interesting.  I'll need to re-watch the scene with the pilot more critically now.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: TXFlyboy on May 04, 2007, 09:13:40 PM
Didn't the pilot die.  Jack, Kate, and Charlie found the nose of the plane while looking for a radio.  Smokie yanked the pilot out and deposited his broken and bloody body in a tree.
I don't think he saw that coming.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: ericd543 on May 05, 2007, 12:20:05 AM
Why bring Cooper to the island. So Locke could kill him.. why not just tell Locke that they had just found out that Cooper had died in a police shoot-out in Tallahasee?  Locke would be able to move on...and be whatever the Others thought he should be.  It might not be that Cooper be killed, but that Locke has to commit a sin and sacrifice his soul to be an other?

What is the difference between telling Locke his dad is dead and Locke killing his dad? Quite a big difference, if you ask me.

What did Ben say? Something like "it takes a free will decision" to join (pledge? hehe) The Others? They want Locke to take the BIG step in "leaving it all behind". This sounds a lot like someone (therapist?) telling Locke to quit blaming his father for how his life turned out. Don't get into the blame game. No one can fix your problems but yourself. "Do it! You weakling!" OMG! That's a tough position to be in. I feel for Locke. He's being conned again (if you ask me). Sad... tragic, even (http://www.toonopedia.com/snaggle.htm).

I wonder if Locke suspects this is all a mind game. You would think he'd have to. I mean, how the #@$!% did his dad get to the island? What the *bleep* is with the mumbo-jumbo about being in Hell? Locke should be thinking, "From his point of view, it kinda makes sense." I mean WTF is Locke thinking?!? Is he buying it or is he skeptical? Is he a Man of Science or a Man of Faith? We were led to believe that Locke is the Man of Faith. Okay. Go.

This is wild stuff. No matter how much Locke believes in the therapeutic value of a walkabout, the question has to cross his mind... "this is some crazy shiznit!"  and, "is this for real?" and, "are these guys playing me with some of the local hallucinogenic herbal mind salve that's, like, SPROUTIN' OUT OF THE LEAVES around here on this crazy mothertruckin island?". (Boone and his trippy Shanon "imagining")

Locke is not stupid. The idea that he is "undercover" to play the Others in order to find a way to get off this island does not make sense (IMHO). He would NOT blow up the sub if that were the case. It is more likely that he's buying into the idea (being conned... AGAIN) that "he is special" and is conning James into doing what he wants him to do -- kill the Man From Tallahassee in order to give Locke "THE POWER OF THE ISLAND". w00t!

I think Locke will eventually receive the power of the Island but will be corrupted (disappointed) by what it took to be #1. That's your basic movie formula anyway... tho I hope LOST blows all that pablum away.

It should be obvious by now that this is building to a head for a *HUGE SEASON FINALE*.  I'm lovin' it! :)

Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: ericd543 on May 05, 2007, 12:26:39 AM
Then we have a few others besides Locke who as far as we know haven't killed anyone - Rose, Bernard, Sun, Jin, Charlie, the now dearly departed Shannon and Boone, etc. 

Sun killed that OTHER CHIC who came aboard the sailboat. Plus she may have killed the Chinese guy who was giving her "English lessons". Boom-shaka-laka! w00t! That's right.... I said it!
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: PrincessLeia on May 05, 2007, 12:38:15 AM
Then we have a few others besides Locke who as far as we know haven't killed anyone - Rose, Bernard, Sun, Jin, Charlie, the now dearly departed Shannon and Boone, etc. 

Sun killed that OTHER CHIC who came aboard the sailboat. Plus she may have killed the Chinese guy who was giving her "English lessons". Boom-shaka-laka! w00t! That's right.... I said it!
Also- Charlie killed Ethan.

btw- the Producers confirmed that JaeLee did commit suicide.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: ericd543 on May 05, 2007, 01:28:58 AM
I still find it weird that the tailies who were kidnapped initially could stand there and watch Locke try to kill his father and not be horrified by the whole experience. What has happened to these people that they're all going along with a ritual like this?

Or are they playing part in Locke's island-induced halucination?
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: ericd543 on May 05, 2007, 01:32:54 AM
btw- the Producers confirmed that JaeLee did commit suicide.

Okay, I did not know that. Interesting...
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: PrincessLeia on May 05, 2007, 01:34:54 AM
btw- the Producers confirmed that JaeLee did commit suicide.

Okay, I did not know that. Interesting...
But you're right, anyway.  She did kill Colleen.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: Capemail on May 05, 2007, 02:48:41 AM
Creflo - as far as having killed someone before or not, I think among the main losties there are a few borderline cases...  Jack, who as far as we know never directly killed anyone, but allowed Adam Rutherford (Shannon's father) to die while he tried to save Sara.  Also Hurley, who I think came closest when he accidently caused the balcony to collapse (I think some of the other people on the balcony died).  Then we have a few others besides Locke who as far as we know haven't killed anyone - Rose, Bernard, Sun, Jin, Charlie, the now dearly departed Shannon and Boone, etc. 

Sun and Charlie have killed people. Jin contributed to the cause of a suicide, and even Bernard indirectly kept Boone on the plane that killed him (that one was a reach, I know, just rambling off on names you listed).

And barring him possessing knowledge unbeknownst to us, as far as Locke knows, he had already killed someone (Mikhail)
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: ericd543 on May 05, 2007, 04:44:21 AM
Sun and Charlie have killed people. Jin contributed to the cause of a suicide, and even Bernard indirectly kept Boone on the plane that killed him (that one was a reach, I know, just rambling off on names you listed).

And barring him possessing knowledge unbeknownst to us, as far as Locke knows, he had already killed someone (Mikhail)

Yes. And so it goes....
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: jugdish on May 05, 2007, 11:43:47 AM
Bernard killed boone. I don't think so. Major stretch there
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on May 05, 2007, 02:00:15 PM
Jack killed the Marshall.  Sawyer went into shoot him but hit his lung instead of his heart so Jack suffocated him, I think.   As for Rose and Bernard, we don't know much about their past, they don't seem like the type to kill but neither did Sun...

I find it interesting that an overwhelming number of people on the island have caused the death of someone else.  I don't think you need to commit murder to become an other.  It could've just been a test specific for Locke.  Killing his father was supposed to free him.  Another example, maybe Juliet's test of freedom was abandoning her home and her family for the island. 

I'd say the test of will changes from person to person. 
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: Tekkaman on May 06, 2007, 01:46:45 PM
Lets not forget Locke has killed too. Remeber Mikhail!
So why is Locke able to kill Mikhail who has not done much to upset him, but he has troubles killing his kidney-stealing dad.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: jec9000 on May 06, 2007, 10:17:27 PM
I think Locke couldn't kill his father because he wasn't the one who "brought" him to the island.  Sawyer was.  So Sawyer had to be the one to clean up the mess.  Locke may not be consciously aware of why he couldn't do it, (or he may be aware but can't articulate it in front of Ben), but Ben set him up to fail in front of the gathered others.

Now, the question is...does Ben know that it wasn't Locke that brought Anthony Cooper to the island, but Sawyer?  I think so because Ben knew that Locke couldn't-wouldn't-shouldn't kill Cooper according to the islands esoteric mystical rules of conduct.  It had to be Sawyer.  And that strengthened Ben's authority by humiliating Locke.  But I don't think he knew Alpert would give Locke the file on Sawyer.   So that leads to another question.  Is Sawyer actually the one they were/are waiting for? I really don't think so, but it is a fascinating thought.
Title: Re: Do you have to murder someone to be an Other...
Post by: JBRam on May 06, 2007, 10:21:02 PM
Actually... Ben brought Cooper to the island. He brought him so that Locke would kill him, and fate turned it so that Sawyer could take him out instead.