Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x16 => Topic started by: anavrin on April 12, 2007, 12:46:58 AM

Title: Fertility issues
Post by: anavrin on April 12, 2007, 12:46:58 AM
(1)  What's Sun's fate, seeing as she is pregnant?  And don't the Others know she's pregnant?  They seem to know everything else.

(2)  I didn't quite follow the thing with Claire.  Did she really need the Others' intervention to carry her pregnancy to term?  Or was that some sort of ruse.

(3)  Wasn't Rousseau pregnant when she landed on the island with her exploration party???
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 12:51:17 AM
I think Rousseau and Claire carried to term because they hadn't been exposed to the island as long as the women Juliette was working on.  Without the 'help' of the others Claire would have had a regular pregnancy.  Ethan was taking blood samples we know, not pumping her full of serum on the beach.  Claire's sickness was caused by an implant, so I think Sun will have a regular pregnancy... as long as she doesn't let Juliette mess around with her.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: JBRam on April 12, 2007, 12:53:13 AM
(1) LOST will be over before Sun gives birth, so I assume that she will either be dead or back in Korea by that time.

(2) I still think that this was not just a ruse. Whether Claire needed medication afterwards or not, I'm not sure. I think that was just to gain trust from everyone else.

(3) Yes she was. Alex was born a month or so after Rousseau landed
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: versed4every1 on April 12, 2007, 01:02:26 AM
(1) LOST will be over before Sun gives birth, so I assume that she will either be dead or back in Korea by that time.

(2) I still think that this was not just a ruse. Whether Claire needed medication afterwards or not, I'm not sure. I think that was just to gain trust from everyone else.

(3) Yes she was. Alex was born a month or so after Rousseau landed

Juliet said that she believed whatever happened to cause the deaths of the mother's happened at conception.  So, the pregnancies that began off the island might not be affected by whatever is causing the others to fail.  The injections that they were giving Claire might have just been a trial of a new serum.  Juliet said that Claire was supposed to be their control case.  However, Juliet lies.  The question is what is implanted in her and what is its purpose.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 01:05:27 AM
I think Rousseau and Claire carried to term because they hadn't been exposed to the island as long as the women Juliette was working on.  Without the 'help' of the others Claire would have had a regular pregnancy.  Ethan was taking blood samples we know, not pumping her full of serum on the beach.  Claire's sickness was caused by an implant, so I think Sun will have a regular pregnancy... as long as she doesn't let Juliette mess around with her.

Juliet said that they did the blood work on Claire because it was something the island did to pregnant women that caused them to die from either being pregnant or giving birth.  So to me, that says Sun is still in danger and that Rousseau should have been in danger.  Rousseau was 7 months pregnant when she came to the island and the others took Alex when she was just a week old, probably because they thought Rousseau would die.  This issue could explain all the young population in Otherville, though.  It does seem that if the baby is carried to full term, the baby survives, just not the mother.  I wonder why Rousseau wasn't affected by this and if it has anything to do with the fact that she was the only member of her team that didn't get sick.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: JBRam on April 12, 2007, 01:09:01 AM
Jenni, Juliet said that Claire was experiencing the same symptoms (from the blood work)
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: puff6962 on April 12, 2007, 01:25:14 AM
Juliet is a liar. 

Claire was the test case.  She successfully carried the baby to term on the island and lived to tell about it.  The other's monitored her and gave her an implant (hopefully two) for some reason unknown.....  Did they envision the chain of events necessary to infiltrate the camp?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: lostatsea on April 12, 2007, 07:33:20 AM
Where did Karl come from? Isn't he the same age as Alex? Where was his mom when she conceived? Where is she now?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: musepsycho on April 12, 2007, 08:07:08 AM
Another fertility issue:

This episode made me think of the whole issue with Richard Malkin, the Australian psychic. He wanted her to go to America to give away her child, but who was he in contact with? 

I have two opposing arguments:

1. His phrase "This baby must not be raised by another/an Other has previously made me think he belonged to a group opposing the Others.

2. We now know that the Others have a "branch" outside the island, namely Mittelos, wherever their facility is (did we learn that this week?). That could be an indication he was with them.

I'm leaning towards the second right now, but what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 08:16:31 AM
I would like to know what has changed on the island as far as sterility goes between the time Ben was born there and our current problem.  Was his mother pregnant before she came to the island?  Did she conceive and give birth on the island, but for some reason was immune to the sterilizing effects?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: 00Dawg on April 12, 2007, 09:57:23 AM
I'm wondering if the changes made to the anomoly in the Swan hatch somehow messed up the ability for women impregnated on the island to give birth.  Theoretically, that station wouldn't have been there when Ben was born.  Of course, we also haven't really seen anyone old enough to be Ben's mother (at first glance, anyway).
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: casino on April 12, 2007, 10:06:33 AM
(1) LOST will be over before Sun gives birth, so I assume that she will either be dead or back in Korea by that time.

(2) I still think that this was not just a ruse. Whether Claire needed medication afterwards or not, I'm not sure. I think that was just to gain trust from everyone else.

(3) Yes she was. Alex was born a month or so after Rousseau landed

Juliet said that she believed whatever happened to cause the deaths of the mother's happened at conception.  So, the pregnancies that began off the island might not be affected by whatever is causing the others to fail.  The injections that they were giving Claire might have just been a trial of a new serum.  Juliet said that Claire was supposed to be their control case.  However, Juliet lies.  The question is what is implanted in her and what is its purpose.

Man, I am glad you posted this!  I had forgotten what Juliet said about it happening at conception, and was trying to figure out how Claire and Danielle got away with giving birth.  That means Sun has a 50-50 chance of being screwed, though.  Maybe that's why it has all of a sudden become important to get Juliet into the Losties camp.

I think the implant was obviously there for the exact reason that we saw on the show....to make her sick so that she required outside help.  I also believe it could have killed her.  Furthermore, I think anyone who has come into contact with the others has the same implant.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 10:07:40 AM
Maybe Ben is suffering from the Blue Lagoon Disease.  He could've just ended up there as a small child and thought that the island conceived him, much like Locke's immaculate conception.  That could be why he feels superior to the others.   :P
Ben's origin is indeed a mystery!
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: General Zod on April 12, 2007, 10:31:25 AM
Do we know Sun got pregnant on the island because in a flashback she was doinking the other dude.  I have no idea of the time line of everything involved with her, but I'm just throwing this out there for someone who does know.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: casino on April 12, 2007, 11:33:40 AM
W
Do we know Sun got pregnant on the island because in a flashback she was doinking the other dude.  I have no idea of the time line of everything involved with her, but I'm just throwing this out there for someone who does know.

We don't know at this point.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Hudson on April 12, 2007, 12:25:29 PM
I had similar thoughts to that of Casino.

It seems to me that the birthing related issues are of paramount importanance to Ben, and that is likely why he sent Juliet to the beach -- to see if there are any expectantant mothers....


Juliet will say "Look what  happened to Claire.....pregnancies DO NOT work right on this Island...if you are pregnant you better tell me so I can do my best to try and help you....."

Then, Ben arranges for pregnant lady (Sun) to be abducted and experimented on etc..... I think the whole implant in claire to make her sick, send in the lady doctor, was likely deliberate to work towards this kind of goal.

I also agree with Casino that it is likely that other losties  have implants like that, think of sawyer, he did have a whole put in his chest for sure!

Just my two bits. Peace lost fans.

D
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Viviane9ca on April 12, 2007, 12:53:36 PM
Anyone considered that the reason no one can become pregnant on the island is because only God can create life? Rousseau, Claire and Sun all became pregnant before they arrived on the island. None of the other Losties have become pregnant since they've been on the island and I'm sure they've run out of birth control by now.

The island is Evil. The Others have shown us time and again that they too are evil. The masterminds of the island experiment (Widmore etc..) are all power / wealthly people. Did they make a deal with the devil to achieve their wealth? The devil is at work on this island and he is trying to achieve the one thing he can't...the creation of LIFE.

The women who agreed to become pregnant on the island (not to mention all the Others) must have all been tempted by the devil and they accepted his offer.  What were they promised? Something from the magically box / room, where whatever you wish for appears? A better life? A ticket off the island? Money? Make me or a sick relative well? Ben's cancer/tumor would be cured? Maybe that's why he was shocked to discover it was back. Kill my ex-hushand / boss? e.g. Juliette case..if only he were hit by a bus... then it happens. She is then offered her dream job and accepts it. As much as Juliette wants to get off the island she must realizes that her deal with the devil is what is keeping her there.

re: musepsycho about the Australian psychic telling Claire her baby must be raised by an other.
If the psychic is right Aaron is the next Saviour and had to come to the island to save the sinners... just like Jesus! By the way... it's not just the Others who are sinners... but the Losties as well.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 01:03:09 PM
I do agree that bad people are trying to make bad children, but I don't know if it is the Devil or not.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 01:25:00 PM
I would like to know if the fertility issues only pertain to humans on the island, or if it affects the animals as well.  The boar population is diminishing because of all the hunting, and to my knowledge we haven't seen any piglets.  We know there were at least two polar bears, I am assuming one male and one female.  Were they able to reproduce?  The spiders seem to be in abundance, so they can obviously have babies.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 01:28:17 PM
I think the boars do reproduce.  During one of the first episodes that mentioned the boar didn't Locke say something like 'that was just a young one' or something to that effect?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 01:33:55 PM
I think you're right.  I do remember Locke saying that.  What about the bears?  Were there two or three?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 01:36:45 PM
I know Sawyer shot the smaller one, I thought he meant a cub or something but it could've been just a smaller female.  There where two cages, but Tom made it sound like there were two bears in one of them.  So as for the other empty cage?  Could've easily held another bear or two.

In addition, I think it is just the humans that are effected.  If bad people are sterilized to prevent them from making 'problem' babies see...  And animals can't really be evil or manipulative (unless they are cats) but people can.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 01:39:50 PM
So with all that info, do you think the fertility issue is only for humans? 
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: matahari on April 12, 2007, 01:42:03 PM
I would like to know if the fertility issues only pertain to humans on the island, or if it affects the animals as well.  The boar population is diminishing because of all the hunting, and to my knowledge we haven't seen any piglets.  We know there were at least two polar bears, I am assuming one male and one female.  Were they able to reproduce?  The spiders seem to be in abundance, so they can obviously have babies.  What do you think?
When Sawyer goes after the boar he finds a piglet and makes it squeal to attract the bigger boar.

Alex gets Claire out of the staff because she thinks the others are going to kill her. Are they killing the mothers or is it a disease?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: casino on April 12, 2007, 01:48:57 PM
So with all that info, do you think the fertility issue is only for humans? 

I do.  I wonder....have they looked at the men?  If the problem happens at conception, maybe it's the guy's fault.  You've got to figure that the women Others only hooked up with the men Others.

Maybe those guys just have some screwed up swimmers.

I think it's time to send in the Lost Boys to take up the slack.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 12, 2007, 01:58:38 PM
The woman on the operating table, the one that Juliet saw die, why was she cut open?  Were they delivering the baby?  Where they trying to surgically fix her symptoms, the ones that Claire was showing?  Actually... was what Claire went through like what the other test subjects had gone through?  She had an implant, which could mimic those effects or cause just a new kind of sickness. 
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 02:02:14 PM
She bled out through her mouth.  To me it kind of resembled when Mikhail died.  I wonder if the implant they used was something similar to their fence, just with lower doses.

Other than that, I can't think of a reason to have an implant.  The woman on the table--it looked like they were trying to control some sort of hemorraging.  Maybe they were trying to save the baby thinking the mother was a lost cause.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Lost-N-Detroit on April 12, 2007, 02:06:35 PM
So does this mean that Desmond is going to be pregnet soon? Desmond was told by Kelvin to take the shoots every other day and he did for 3 years. Isn't this the same injections that Juliet gave to Clarie?
I belevie that Sun will be taken next week by the others and become their new controlled patient.  Did anyone happen to notice the video photoage of Juliet's sister with her nephew? It sure looked a lot like the painting on Ben's wall.
Just a rambling thought but.... the meaning of the DARMHA logo has a meaning about young brother, middle brother, older brother, young sister, middle sister, older sister, mother, father... could there be that there are 3 brothers and 3 sisters with their mother and father on the island? Maybe a BRADY BUNCH moment.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: musepsycho on April 12, 2007, 02:17:28 PM
I think the case is this: For whatever reason, the Others can't have children. This is why they set up Mittelos (with help from DHARMA &/or Widmore? - my guess here is Widmore, & that maybe the founding of Mittelos was the reason for the split between DHARMA & Widmore), & this is why they kidnap children & pregnant women. However they always run into trouble, both morally (because of the gene manipulation they are exercising) & practically (when you snatch children & mothers to be you're asking for trouble!). But their intentions are the best: to survive & procreate, which they have the mantra "We're good people!" & this is why everyone who comes into contact with them think tat they are bad people.

So I think Rousseau is Alex' mother, & that the Others somehow justify the abduction of Alex because of a similar clash between the science crew as the losties are now experiencing. Possibly some of the Others also were killed when Rousseau's team arrived.

Still - a lot is a mystery, but this I think, is the core of the Others' problem.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: uofapiglet on April 12, 2007, 03:04:39 PM
Great discussion so far guys.... I'm glad someone brought up Claire's implant and the pregnancy connection on the island, especially Juliet's research that "IT happens at conception" (whatever IT is). And muse is right, there is a lot of mystery but this obession with babies and the creation of a civilization purely based on the saying "We're the Good Guys!" has a lot to do with the root of the Others' problem on the island.

Call it eugenics or utopia, or whatever... but what the Others have established so far on the island is the foreground for a cancer-free (suppposedly) soceity. Cancer, in all senses of the word, not just illness. This brings up things like the quarantine (fake or not), possible caged procreation, and wanting to segregate the new islanders on a good vs. bad profile based on detailed background check reconnaissance. 

We have yet to determine Sun's baby's daddy, and if she conceived on/off the island. We know that Claire is constantly being monitored, and that she was implanted with something. The question of Kate possibly being pregnant is a theory that is still up in the air. And we know Juliet is on the beach to oversee it all, and I don't think it's a coincidence. As far as Rousseau being another post-partum survivor, not just Claire, is kinda confusing, but we don't really know very much about Rousseau to begin with (keeping my fingers crossed for a possible bactstory on Alex and Danielle!).

Anyway, long post short, fertility is obviously a touchy subject on the island. The writers are giving it some importance so I'm sure that there's something to all this mystery surrounding our pregnant mothers.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 05:35:41 PM
Well said, Piglet!  That implant thing really has me baffled!!  I can't imagine what kind of implant could possibly start an immunity breakdown!  It has to be real because we saw what Claire was going through, unlike the time they supposedly put a thing on Sawyers heart that would make it explode.  Even knowing that Claire was suffering, I still can't get it out of my thoughts that they tried to control Sawyer with the lie of his supposed implant and that what Claire went through had nothing to do with the fertility issue.  Maybe it was something else and they staged it to look that way so that Juliet could save the day.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: uofapiglet on April 12, 2007, 05:43:04 PM
Thanks!

I'm thoroughly convinced that Juliet is there one, to infiltrate the Losties camp, and two, to oversee the health of the mothers/mothers-to-be. Whether or not she's there for revenge, alligning with Ben's plan, or whatever, I have no clue. But there's something to be said about her ability to take care of the females on the island and their pre-natal development...

Spoiler
Apparently, Sun reluctantly allows her to examine her belly or something in an upcoming episode.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: rhythm on April 12, 2007, 05:45:04 PM
Hi everyone...new here.

Here's my thoughts on the fertility issue:

The "Others" were taking Claire's blood to probably try to study it and compare it to the other pregnant womens' samples to check for any anomalies.  Claire probably really was their "control" specimen.  

And an idea came to mind...what if those women were the original inhabitants of the island and they are now becoming extinct and that is why they are unable to conceive...

So then Claire arrives and they have something/one to compare themeselves to...to check for differences.

Maybe, when Ethan kidnapped her, they were not giving her injections to "protect"  her but they were actually administering the implant.  Maybe the implant <trigger if you will> is chemical in nature ...

Sun, Claire & Rousseau {if my theory is true or if Juliette is correct about "it" happening at conception} would be immune to whatever is wrong because they were not inhabitants of the island and they did not become impregnated on the island.  

AND maybe, just maybe the reason why they took Alex and the other children is because they aren't natives of the island and the others hope that maybe in time they can "breed" with them to keep themselves from dying out.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: JBRam on April 12, 2007, 05:47:07 PM
Thanks!

I'm thoroughly convinced that Juliet is there one, to infiltrate the Losties camp, and two, to oversee the health of the mothers/mothers-to-be. Whether or not she's there for revenge, alligning with Ben's plan, or whatever, I have no clue. But there's something to be said about her ability to take care of the females on the island and their pre-natal development...

Spoiler
Apparently, Sun reluctantly allows her to examine her belly or something in an upcoming episode.
Response to Your Spoiler
Maybe that's why Juliet is there: to make sure Sun stays ok
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 12, 2007, 06:19:36 PM
I doubt Juliet has any good intentions that aren't self-centered.  She wants to see the women survive, but only so she can go home.  Plus, you can't tell me with something this big that she wouldn't want the credibility from it.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: nikarro on April 12, 2007, 07:11:40 PM
Here is something that struck me, I am going back to re-watch all of the episodes with ethan and claire, maybe they implanted something in her too, but what if he HAD kidnapped her only to save her?  What if that was his goal all along to save her and when the Losties figured him out he got angry and took her.  Maybe they were only going to try to take the baby for fear that she and the baby would die.  Maybe Alex is in on this deeper, maybe she was used to get Claire out once they realized she would be all right but they wanted the Losties to keep their fear of the Others.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: chadley420 on April 12, 2007, 07:24:43 PM
So Are Ben, Alex, and Aaron the only people that were born on the island?  Looks like you have to name your child something that starts at the beginning of the alphabet for them to survive.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: matahari on April 12, 2007, 07:45:29 PM
So Are Ben, Alex, and Aaron the only people that were born on the island?  Looks like you have to name your child something that starts at the beginning of the alphabet for them to survive.
Dont forget Carl!! ;D
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: uofapiglet on April 12, 2007, 08:11:51 PM
Welcome Rhythm! Great post so far and I hope you continue to join in on the Sledgeweb forum fun...

I doubt Juliet has any good intentions that aren't self-centered.  She wants to see the women survive, but only so she can go home.  Plus, you can't tell me with something this big that she wouldn't want the credibility from it.
I feel exactly the same way about Juliet ND... sometimes I think she wants to do it just to say to herself that she wasn't a failure with regards to her research/work on the island even though she keeps pretending to want off the island - it's why she's been there so long. I dunno, she's a shady character, too complex for me to figure out, but I'm sure she'll come in handy when the time comes to explain the baby crisis to Sun.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Optimus J on April 13, 2007, 01:42:26 AM
(1) LOST will be over before Sun gives birth, so I assume that she will either be dead or back in Korea by that time.

Really? because In the next season she will start to show the pregnancy, as she is probably past the 10th week now. she could even have the baby 4~6 weeks before the end of term. So They CAN do it, considering  LOST will last till 2009, maybe 2010.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Optimus J on April 13, 2007, 02:01:21 AM
Hi everyone...new here.

Here's my thoughts on the fertility issue:

The "Others" were taking Claire's blood to probably try to study it and compare it to the other pregnant womens' samples to check for any anomalies.  Claire probably really was their "control" specimen. 

And an idea came to mind...what if those women were the original inhabitants of the island and they are now becoming extinct and that is why they are unable to conceive...

So then Claire arrives and they have something/one to compare themeselves to...to check for differences.

Maybe, when Ethan kidnapped her, they were not giving her injections to "protect"  her but they were actually administering the implant.  Maybe the implant <trigger if you will> is chemical in nature ...

Sun, Claire & Rousseau {if my theory is true or if Juliette is correct about "it" happening at conception} would be immune to whatever is wrong because they were not inhabitants of the island and they did not become impregnated on the island. 

AND maybe, just maybe the reason why they took Alex and the other children is because they aren't natives of the island and the others hope that maybe in time they can "breed" with them to keep themselves from dying out.

The problem with the pregnancy is that the placenta triggers the immunological system of the mother, as it's made of half the tissues (and genectics) of mother and half of the child (which have foreign DNA) . At normal conditions this triggers a failsfe on the B-Cells of the mother on the womb. But in the island That doesn't work anymore and the mothers die.

That said, the history Jules told about Claire and the need of medication doesn't make sense. That serum wasn't necessary in the staff, and the operation probably was not only to give birth to Aaron, but to vivisect Claire as well to make a biopsy on her womb.
Hence Alex told she saved Claire's live. Alex might even "hate" Ben because she thinks her mother died because of him, and his decision to take the term to the end, even with the risk.
I really hate the others.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: JBRam on April 13, 2007, 02:17:29 AM
(1) LOST will be over before Sun gives birth, so I assume that she will either be dead or back in Korea by that time.

Really? because In the next season she will start to show the pregnancy, as she is probably past the 10th week now. she could even have the baby 4~6 weeks before the end of term. So They CAN do it, considering  LOST will last till 2009, maybe 2010.
We've been travelling at approximately one month per season... that means it would take nine months or nine season for Sun's baby to be born.

I hope that doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: snowyjoe on April 13, 2007, 03:52:22 AM
(1)  What's Sun's fate, seeing as she is pregnant?  And don't the Others know she's pregnant?  They seem to know everything else.

(2)  I didn't quite follow the thing with Claire.  Did she really need the Others' intervention to carry her pregnancy to term?  Or was that some sort of ruse.

(3)  Wasn't Rousseau pregnant when she landed on the island with her exploration party???

congratulations... you win the 'stating the bleeding obvious' award!!  :D
[/joke]  ...that means... dont take it to heart...
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on July 31, 2007, 08:39:22 PM
Ok.  So.  Why is it that the island allows men to have a higher sperm count, allows for conception, but won't allow babies to carry to term?  It seem kinda contradictory to have these issues.  If the island didn't want children why increase sperm count five fold?  And if the problem happens at conception like Juliet said, these women couldn't even leave the island in hopes of a regular birth.  Which leads me to believe that there are two forces here, not just one.  The first force (maybe the island) wants to promote life and so allows the blessing of an increased sperm count.  The second (possibly side effect from Others/ Dharma technology) damages the cells of either the baby or the mother and impairs the ability to carry to term.  Hm.  Feel free to change what is in the parenthesis, even reverse them.

I guess my point is there must be two things going on here.  Why the wasted effort for the sperm count if the POINT of it is to conceive which is not even possible.  Unless, does anyone know anything about the effects of a high sperm count?  Does it raise testosterone or something?  Promote some primal alpha wolf thing?  Other possibly positive things besides makin babies?

Seeing as there are baby boar, there must be birth elsewhere, just not in humans.

Or did Dharma, trying to create an ideal environment, decide to sterilize the population until that ideal was achieved?  Could they have been wiped out before the "sterilize switch" had been disabled?  Thoughts?  :'(
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: LostAndSeek on July 31, 2007, 11:17:16 PM
Ok.  So.  Why is it that the island allows men to have a higher sperm count, allows for conception, but won't allow babies to carry to term?  It seem kinda contradictory to have these issues.  If the island didn't want children why increase sperm count five fold?  And if the problem happens at conception like Juliet said, these women couldn't even leave the island in hopes of a regular birth.  Which leads me to believe that there are two forces here, not just one.  The first force (maybe the island) wants to promote life and so allows the blessing of an increased sperm count.  The second (possibly side effect from Others/ Dharma technology) damages the cells of either the baby or the mother and impairs the ability to carry to term.  Hm.  Feel free to change what is in the parenthesis, even reverse them.

I guess my point is there must be two things going on here.  Why the wasted effort for the sperm count if the POINT of it is to conceive which is not even possible.  Unless, does anyone know anything about the effects of a high sperm count?  Does it raise testosterone or something?  Promote some primal alpha wolf thing?  Other possibly positive things besides makin babies?

Seeing as there are baby boar, there must be birth elsewhere, just not in humans.

Or did Dharma, trying to create an ideal environment, decide to sterilize the population until that ideal was achieved?  Could they have been wiped out before the "sterilize switch" had been disabled?  Thoughts?  :'(

Interesting issues, Maggie. I'm guessing that whatever mechanism cures cancer also has the unexpected side effect of causing the pregnancy deaths. Could be that mechanism attacks rapid cell reproduction and can't distinguish cancer from a baby. Make that human cell reproduction as you're right that animals don't seem to be affected.

Just a guess....
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on August 01, 2007, 04:25:30 PM
Ok, here's some things I thought would be interesting to put here.

First of all, when sperm counts are higher, it also means that testosterone levels are higher.  (this could account for the behavior in such men as Ryan, and other Others, that are seemingly aggressive)

Women also produce testosterone, but in smaller levels than men.  When a woman's testosterone level is high, she is infertile.  She also will start to show "male" symptoms like a deeper voice, hair growth on body (similar to that of men), shifting of cental body mass, and gaining a more muscular structure.  Also, during conception and fertilization of the ovum, testosterone is needed to carry the Y chromosome to produce a male embryo.

What is confusing to me is that the levels of testosterone must be higher on the island if the sperm count is higher, but none of the women are showing signs of their levels being higher.  Danielle has been on the island for 16 years, and all kidding aside please, she is still feminine looking and sounding, as are the rest of the women we know of.  Juliet is still feminine, too. 

So what could be on the island that is selective about:

1. Choosing only humans for fertility issues.
2. Choosing only men for higher testosterone levels

What is really puzzling is this little news tidbit I found today:

The condition: Despite repeated reassurances from the FCC to the contrary, those invisible electromagnetic fields (EMFs) emitted by cell phones, Wi-Fi networks and other wireless devices are being blamed for a whole host of health problems, including nausea, upset stomachs, tinnitus, brain fog and short-term memory loss. The most disturbing charge, however, is the link between cell phone use and dwindling sperm counts.

If the small amounts of EMF's coming from a cell phone cause all this, then what does that say for what should be happening on the island that is appearing to be one huge EMF? 
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on August 01, 2007, 04:45:47 PM
Aha!  So going along with both ND and LostandSeek, here we have this electromagnetic thing that (possibly) reduces sperm count, and that same mechanism could be the cancer curer (nice idea about it not being able to differentiate between a fetus).  So I would say that the island is trying to counteract these issues by raising sperm count.  Somehow.
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on August 01, 2007, 05:17:17 PM
There is another possibility to this, but I haven't ironed out all the bugs.

When you get your blood typed, you have a little + or - next to the letter(s).  This is your Rh factor.  It doesn't mean anything hardly unless you are a woman.  If a woman is rh + and a man who is rh - fathers a child with her, then problems can exist for the fetus and eventually the woman.  What happens is that, even though mother and baby do not share a blood supply, the mother's body detects the rh - as a foreign body, or basically an infection.  The mother's anti-bodies with attack the fetus, and eventually kill it and cause it to abort.  There are grave complications for the mother, too, if this is left untreated. 

Now normally, this is a very basic thing to treat with an injection to the pregnant mother.  But what if the electromagnism has affected this process greatly??  I realize that the blood samples the others want are for pregnancy tests, but what if they are also wanting it for blood typing??
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: Nancy Drew on August 01, 2007, 05:30:13 PM
Ok, I finally found what I was looking for:  This is a quote taken from Puff in the Why Dark Meat thread. 

Quote
The effects of magnetic fields also have been observed at a cellular level. A researcher at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California hypothesized that individual cells may possess sensory systems that respond to weak magnetic fields. He noticed that extremely low frequency (ELF) electromagnetic fields change the cellular protein structures, which disrupts the transport of proteins and other substances within the cells. Clearly, disruption of the magnetic field of a cell may ultimately disable it to some degree, and may even cause cell death.

If the body's defenses are not able to neutralize abnormal external magnetic fields, many serious things can happen. Magnetic field exposure could lead to distortion in the cellular production of hormones, various cellular dysfunctions and ultimately, cell death.

Externally created magnetic fields can also interfere with normal cellular activity by creating a "static" that interferes with communication between separate cells and structures within cells. This type of exposure has been seen to interfere with the cell's ability to block disease-causing proteins. Thus, the cell may become more vulnerable to disease-causing invaders such as viruses and bacteria, and to the acceptance of toxic substances.

What I highlighted in red, is what I found most interesting about the info from Puff's source.  The sperm and the egg needed for conception are both considered individual cells.  Maybe this "static" is what is causing the problem with the pregnancies?
Title: Re: Fertility issues
Post by: nikarro on August 07, 2007, 02:18:51 PM
Ok, I finally found what I was looking for:  This is a quote taken from Puff in the Why Dark Meat thread. 

Quote
The effects of magnetic fields also have been observed at a cellular level. A researcher at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California hypothesized that individual cells may possess sensory systems that respond to weak magnetic fields. He noticed that extremely low frequency (ELF) electromagnetic fields change the cellular protein structures, which disrupts the transport of proteins and other substances within the cells. Clearly, disruption of the magnetic field of a cell may ultimately disable it to some degree, and may even cause cell death.

If the body's defenses are not able to neutralize abnormal external magnetic fields, many serious things can happen. Magnetic field exposure could lead to distortion in the cellular production of hormones, various cellular dysfunctions and ultimately, cell death.

Externally created magnetic fields can also interfere with normal cellular activity by creating a "static" that interferes with communication between separate cells and structures within cells. This type of exposure has been seen to interfere with the cell's ability to block disease-causing proteins. Thus, the cell may become more vulnerable to disease-causing invaders such as viruses and bacteria, and to the acceptance of toxic substances.

What I highlighted in red, is what I found most interesting about the info from Puff's source.  The sperm and the egg needed for conception are both considered individual cells.  Maybe this "static" is what is causing the problem with the pregnancies?


THIS is really cool,