Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x15 => Topic started by: puff6962 on April 10, 2007, 12:49:35 PM

Title: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 10, 2007, 12:49:35 PM
Did Juliet know that Kate was inside the complex waiting for her?  I think so.

Did Juliet know that Kate would dislocate her shoulder?  I think that she already had three times before.

Did Juliet know that Kate would leave her without the handcuffs and Juliet wouldn't get to go back with the losties?  Yep.

Was Juliet aware that Kate would be apprehensive of the fence?  Right again.


Do Ben and Juliet have the ability to Ground Hog Day the losties.....trying out the same reality over and over again, with subtle variation, until they derive the objective outcome?  Ya.

When you watch Ground Hog Day, Bill Murray has intimate knowledge of every facet of this small town and endlessly explores permutations of reality.  Ben and Juliet have the ability to do the same through some gift of the island, precognition, or simply living the reality over.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: kmetzk92 on April 10, 2007, 02:23:09 PM
i dont think so...
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 10, 2007, 03:45:34 PM
yes you do, you just don't know it yet.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: Wishbone on April 10, 2007, 03:53:34 PM
I don't really see it that way either (and groundhog day isn't the same as deja vu anyway).

I can see the possibility of a groundhog day situation but I'm really hoping ben's power of manipulation are a bit more substantial than that.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: Fallybear on April 10, 2007, 05:17:52 PM
Run with it Puffy. This is when you're at your best!

It would explain how they are acquiring skills they never had before. The others know what's coming and can prepare a few "karate kicks" for our losties.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 10, 2007, 05:55:41 PM
I have speculated on the groundhog's day effect here.  It could go all the way back to how they ended up on the plane.  By manipulating certain events, the other's could have (several times) planned the whole show.  However, they would have to have people like Colleen or the one's Eko killed on the beach agree to die in order to fufill the uh... prophecy.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 10, 2007, 06:21:23 PM
Yes, yes, yes....

By the Unifying Theory, the Other's have the luxury of peering into similar, but divergent, quantum realities.  The differences must arise from changes outside their own little quantum bubble defined by their reference time and circumstance.  In essence, you can't kill on of your fellow others or alter the path that led to their getting to the island in the first place.  Outside that, you are free to Ground Hog day a specified reality until you get the outcome you want.  The really odd question that arises is what happens if you die in one of these little escapades?  That one we can debate quite a bit.

I would hate to think that Lost can be compared to Ground Hog Day (the movie), but let's consider what precognition has meant on the show.  In the case of Walt, what he thinks happens.  What question Locke needs answered is handed over to the Island.  What Ben needs, through ruthless manipulation and luck, Ben gets.  And Desmond, he only sees flashes. 

Precognition, particularly in the cases of Ben and Desmond, appears to come from the frame reference that "this has happened before and this is how it turned out."  This insight allows them to steer circumstance in their favor or to save Charlie. 

What these guys are doing is manifesting knowledge or physical realities using the power of the magic box.  They can grab knowledge, physical items, strength, or insight from their abilities coupled with the island.

I think that when a character has faced their flaws, a communion of varying degrees begins with the island and these gifts are bestowed accordingly.

Intuition, strength, knowledge, cunning.....all qualities of those we have seen invested with the power of the island. 

A flux of realities (starting to sound like the flux capacitor from Back to the Future) is the only way that Ben could be so effective in getting what he wants.  He finds out what theyare emotionally invested in and then he exploits it.  However, the circumstances based upon impossible odds....a spine surgeon dropping from the sky....Locke blowing up the sub for him....this has to be divine intervention.

What am I trying to say?  Well, let me recap.  Yes, the Others may  have Desmond's gift of flashes and can thus borrow knowledge from many different realities.  In this way, the Unifying Theory is supported.  Precognition is shown to varying degrees, but each time relies upon producing something from an alternative reality, borrowing knowledge from it, or manipulating reality based upon knowledge of the likely future. 

On top of this, this is an ever-powerful force that did intentionally draw the passengers and plane to the island and was powerful enough to down the plane and hide the island.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 10, 2007, 07:19:22 PM
If there are infinite threads of time...um... y'know, events n' whatnot.  Kinda like 'the one' where there are realities running parallel to each other, and the others have learned how to span these realities.  They could possibly run into one that is the best fit for their needs.  Say, in our reality, Christian never goes to Australia, Kate runs away instead of killing Wayne, Cooper can't pull the con on Sawyer's parents, etc. etc.  But in the Lost reality, this particular thread of time has all the events we have seen on the show.
There may be another thread of time where I am married to Jin instead of Sun... you see?
Given infinite opportunities, infinite things will happen.   
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 10, 2007, 07:31:00 PM
Versions of the past are delicate.  You can go watch Nadia Komenich vault, but you can't mess with the path that led you to the island.  Such would alter the quantum bubble that is the essence of the Others and access to the magic box.   If you go back in your past and "fix" things, you alter the summary experience of the Others in an unpredictable and instantaneous manner.

Thus, users can't be too flawed.  Users have to be free of anger, fear, or weakness.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: jewels on April 10, 2007, 07:37:02 PM
Puff, I have to say I thoroughly enjoy your thought-provoking ideas.  You obviously have an extraordinary depth and breadth of knowledge.  Keep up the great posts!
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: xrayeck on April 10, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
Puffdaddy,
I believe your general theory that Ben and Juliet and others are aware of what will happen because it has happened before (and they are "aware" it has happened before just as Desmond is now becoming aware while the Losties are not aware) is right on the button, whether it turns our to be a time loop or multiple parallel realities. There have been many, many clues indicating this but I think the most obvious was Ms. Hawking's lecture of Desmond in 3X8. On many of the spoiler sites today they're reporting a plot line for Desmond's next flashback and a title for this season's finale that would seem (from many weeks afar) to fit this interpretation. We shall see. I know that I am very anxious to see the reaction of the many, many fans (on this site and elsewhere) who continue to dismiss this idea out of hand and who refuse to allow that time manipulation will play a large role in explaining the mysteries of "Lost."
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 10, 2007, 11:57:58 PM
Only a fool is enslaved by time and space.  I think that the Others are able to observe a number of realities in order to guide their actions. 

Desmond's condition is a little wierd because when he changes an outcome, this would ordinarily blind him to further circumstance if we consider that he simply got a glimpse of the future.

Take the following....Say you go use the example of Biff in Back to the Future.  When he got that book, he knew the scores of all future sporting events.  However, if he starts betting....whose to say that his intervention and eventual notority might alter the future.  Thus, that little book is useful only for a short span of time.  After you play with the knowledge, you blind yourself to further outcomes.

Perhaps it is the same for the Others and that is why they guard the magic box and their ability of precognition.

For Desmond to repeatedly save Charley means that the book of the future is being constantly rewritten and is being repeatedly given to him.  THIS SUGGESTS THAT DESMOND IS GETTING INFO, DEJA VU'S IF YOU WILL, FROM ALTERNATE REALITIES RATHER THAN FROM A SINGLE BOOK OF THE FUTURE.

The ability to monitor all outcomes and choose the one most suitable....Ground Hog Day.....what a concept.  If you use it singularly--and alter reality--then you can do anything that you want.  However, by doing so, you roll the dice of fate for everyone else and effectively take away their free will (if there is such a thing).  Such a notion is based on the fact that you keep exploring realities until you're on top and everyone else is screwed.  This scenario is what I believe happened to Hurley when he used the numbers and "Opened the Box."  He automatically dialled in his prime reality at the cost of those around him. 

You make your own luck (translation:  you choose your own reality).  Only a fool is enslaved to time and space (translation:  multiple realities exist and can be explored). 

Using the notion of Ground Hog Day for a group...the Others...is a much different proposition.  You want to maximize the benefit for the group.  Very utilitarian, very strict rules and personal virtue required.  For this knowledge, you rely upon a great man (Jacob or whoever) or you fall prey to a very devious one (Ben).  We've talked about hypothetical implied rules for the ability to explore realities in the past.....

Is there a separate set of numbers for control of the box....a separate operating sequence that doesn't doom the ones around you.  Is the 4 8 15 16 23 42 sequence the taboo around othersville?

Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on April 11, 2007, 12:02:37 AM
So maybe Desmond isn't actually seeing the future, he is just seeing the future of other realities.  When he saw Charlie drown, was he just seeing another reality?  If Desmond didn't go in the water, would Charlie really have drowned in this reality?

If the numbers were an essential part to the 'magic box' I don't think they would be transmitting them out into the pacific.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 11, 2007, 12:23:24 AM
Genius DMM,

You hit it on the mark.  Charlie has now died 6 times.... He got hit by the server cart.  Jack didn't save him from the monster.  He died when Ethan strung him up.  He got electrocuted.  He drowned trying to save Claire.  He slipped on the rocks.

Hugh Everett's take on quantum mechanics is observer dependent.  Remember Schroedinger's Cat is split in two copies at the time of +/- release of cyanide.  The observer is split into two copies once he or she OPENS THE BOX. 

So, yes, there are infinite realities created each time we make a choice, once we produce an outcome. 

Remember the odd wording of Christian to his son in season one... Don't decide, because when you do, you just don't have what it takes... Was he referring to the inevitable regret we feel upon reflection about our past decisions.  Was he implying that if a man maintains focus, he avoids such entanglements and life is simplified?  Was he stating that we are all slaves to our past decisions (as is demonstrated in all of the flashbacks!)?

What if we were given the opportunity to start over?  Locke states this twice during season one.  A clean slate, free of the web of Schroedinger's cats that we have yielded.  What if we study the past as a means of reconciling it?  What if we had some notion of the consequences of our actions before we took them?

Quantum mechanics borders upon mysticism.  The simple thought that somewhere in time/space I am not writing this while watching Boston Legal....interesting.  I may be climbing a mountain....learning martial arts....president.  Such realities exist but are irrelevant to me....or are they?
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: JMart on April 11, 2007, 01:07:06 AM
oh puffers, i really do enjoy your obsessiveness w/ this show <3
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: xrayeck on April 11, 2007, 08:01:47 AM
Once we are all able to agree this is what is going on (and that may be harder for some of us than others ;-), the question shifts to "why?" or "so what?" My personal thought right now is that all these realities eventually end (or nearly end) in the same way (and I'm assuming it's not a good way) and The Others (and maybe others) are tweaking the variables trying to avoid that final outcome, to find a reality with an ultimate outcome that they like, so to speak.

> Here are a few things this theory helps explain:
WHERE DHARMA CAME FROM AND HOW THEY KNEW ABOUT THE ISLAND
HOW THE NUMBERS GOT ON THE HATCH DOOR
WHY JACK'S NOT ON JACOB'S LIST (he wrote it or more exactly, he will write it)
THE WHISPERS



Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: T Mack on April 11, 2007, 05:30:56 PM
WHY JACK'S NOT ON JACOB'S LIST (he wrote it or more exactly, he will write it)/quote]
Cue Twilight Zone music...OMG!!! :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 11, 2007, 05:51:34 PM
Say that you can grab items from a reality....as they seemingly did with the man from tallahassee....what's to say that all of those on flight 815 lived? 

What if the universe....fate....is self correcting?  It means that, in every reality, the losties eventually ended up on the island.  Perhaps individually, in small groups, by boat, or etc...they got there.  What if you could gather up those individuals from each alternate reality?  You'd have five Charlies, eight Sajids.  If you're an other, you've got to have something to do we these "individuals."  It would make sense for there to be some mechanism to combine contributions from the various realities.....producing a super-Juliet, an ober-Ethan, or Ben.

That would explain Juliet's exceptional talents in martial arts.  It could also be the source of the show's title...Lost...as the Other's are looking for their lost members.
Title: Re: this is like deja vu all over again:
Post by: puff6962 on April 11, 2007, 05:54:05 PM
Also, it would allow for a version of Christian to be alive, which I know you all are waiting for.