Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x13 => Topic started by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 10:41:11 AM

Title: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 10:41:11 AM
My big question last night was:
Why is the submarine the only way off the island?

Why can't they just take one of the boats?

Any thoughts or ideas about this?

Do they have to travel through underwater channels to get back and forth?
or
I wonder if the submarine ever really took anybody home?
Could be Ben lied and they (Jack/Juliette) were not going to be taken "home" as promised.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: BRBob on March 22, 2007, 11:18:57 AM
A submarine is the best choice if you want to try to hide where you are going.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 11:29:41 AM
BRB I understand that, but the way it sounded that is the ONLY way off the island
My questions is why can't they use the boat or even Des's sailboat?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Mitchny on March 22, 2007, 11:50:02 AM
If the Sub is the only way off!  Where did Mike and Walt go in the Boat????
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: hefalumps on March 22, 2007, 11:53:07 AM
I don't think Ben ever intended for Michael and Walt to get back to civilization. I think, like Desmond, they've been sailing around in circles and we'll eventually see them again this season (although, not sure how they'll account for Walt's growth unless there's some kind of time component to the Lost mythology, which is entirely possible).

I know Ben gave them a specific bearing that should get them out, but when else has he actually told the truth? Now, I'm not sure what was so special about the sub that it actually could allow them to get away from the island - maybe staying well enough below the water allows you to get passed whatever "attraction" the island exudes that keeps people stuck around it.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Grimstar on March 22, 2007, 12:01:31 PM
Maybe traveling via submarine allowed you to get low enough to avoid whatever magnetic pull that kept Desmond going in circles
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 12:03:00 PM
I agree and I also think Michael and Walt are wandering around in circles just like Des and hopefully Michael is dead by now.

Maybe the sub was just an illusion that really didn't take anybody home.
Just an illusion of "if you really want to leave you can" when in fact nobody can really leave.  I don't know...I found it stange that the sub was the ONLY way out, unless your right and it has to somehow not be detected.

Maybe it was just a smokey manifestation  :P  ok kidding  
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 12:04:32 PM
Maybe traveling via submarine allowed you to get low enough to avoid whatever magnetic pull that kept Desmond going in circles

I agree but can't we now assume that there is no more magentic pull since the hatch implosion/incident/anomaly?  
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: CastawayCayley on March 22, 2007, 12:07:05 PM
I thought that the key was that no one could find the island once they left, that  the sub USED to be able to find the island by the underwater sonar, and now that the sonar is not working that the sub wouldnt be able to come back after taking Jack and Juliet away, and the others would then be stranded. But, yeah,  by using a boat they should at least be able to LEAVE... just unable to return. maybe they don't have enough boats for everyone?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: goober on March 22, 2007, 12:10:38 PM
Maybe they simply do not have a sea-worthy vessel. Many smaller boats would sink in the open ocean during storms because the waves get to 20 feet or higher. They also lack bilge pumps that are able to move large quantities of water out of the boat in a short period of time. The large research vessel that they used to get to otherville from alcatraz may be of the "puddle-jumper" variety and not adapted for the open ocean.

Submarines are not affected much by storm conditions because they travel underwater.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 12:13:53 PM
GOOD POINTS Cayley ((( :-* :-*)))) and Goober
It makes more sense now thanks  
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: char1 on March 22, 2007, 12:14:46 PM
Maybe traveling via submarine allowed you to get low enough to avoid whatever magnetic pull that kept Desmond going in circles

I agree but can't we now assume that there is no more magentic pull since the hatch implosion/incident/anomaly?  

The Others don't seem to know what the anomoly was. 
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: scrod on March 22, 2007, 12:21:19 PM
Ben talked about 'maintaining the illusion', so still a little unclear if you can get back to the outside world. The sub may be another ruse that the others employ.  Certainly, Juliet was able to get there intentionally, but that was just over 3 years ago. We may not know anything until we get to talk to our arctic friends again and see if they can pinpoint the location.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 12:34:21 PM
Ben talked about 'maintaining the illusion', so still a little unclear if you can get back to the outside world. The sub may be another ruse that the others employ.  Certainly, Juliet was able to get there intentionally, but that was just over 3 years ago. We may not know anything until we get to talk to our arctic friends again and see if they can pinpoint the location.
((((SCROD)))) :-* :-*
Yes I aboslutely agree with "illusion"
Plus we can't really trust what Ben says anyway
He is a master manipulator.  Alex said so herself  
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: rdt2323 on March 22, 2007, 02:12:55 PM
What about the Air drops, we know that they were getting re-supplied. So why not by air?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 02:14:48 PM
What about the Air drops, we know that they were getting re-supplied. So why not by air?

Yes good point!!
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: goober on March 22, 2007, 02:26:23 PM
No place to land a plane.

Helicopter might work though... although I don't know if a helicopter has the required range... ???
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: roger_workman on March 22, 2007, 02:31:52 PM
Ben definetly wants 'his people' to believe that they can leave if they want. He just uses the submarine for that effect. But he doesn't want them to leave. He wants them to think he is a good leader. But now that the sub is asploded, i think that there might be some trouble with the others.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Cardacct on March 22, 2007, 02:32:35 PM
Theoretically if Desmond was in that sailing race, they should be able to use the sailboat to leave the island by taking it out on the open sea.  But Desmond was unable to leave the island.  There has to be something dealing with the properties of the submarine that allows it to leave, but not above-water vessels.

That's what I think.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: goober on March 22, 2007, 02:44:42 PM
Locke is dangerous. He's a "true-believer" and these types usually are willing to go to extremes for their beliefs. Even if it means others have to suffer.

I can see Locke being easily manipulated by Ben because:

(1) Locke wants to stay on the island
(2) Ben doesn't want anyone to leave the island
(3) Locke is the "sucker" PT Barnum was talking about  :D
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on March 22, 2007, 03:23:04 PM
Miklei the one eyed guy said that  with the anamolyt he beacon was destroyed, the sub could leave but could not come back with the beacon not working
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 03:42:53 PM
Miklei the one eyed guy said that  with the anamolyt he beacon was destroyed, the sub could leave but could not come back with the beacon not working

Yes I know but my question was, why is the submarine the only way off the island.  Why not the boat? or even Des's sail boat?
The way Ben put it last night, was that if Locke blows the sub it will ruin the "ilusion" of them being able to leave leaving us with the conclusion that the only way to leave the island was the submarine.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on March 22, 2007, 04:01:55 PM
Miklei the one eyed guy said that  with the anamolyt he beacon was destroyed, the sub could leave but could not come back with the beacon not working

Yes I know but my question was, why is the submarine the only way off the island.  Why not the boat? or even Des's sail boat?
The way Ben put it last night, was that if Locke blows the sub it will ruin the "ilusion" of them being able to leave leaving us with the conclusion that the only way to leave the island was the submarine.

The air drops could have been fromthe submarine and hauled over to the hatch as ben sent some signal.....the sub could have had some special device built by Dharma  along with the radio communications at Flame Station that overrode the anamoly hence the need for the beacon, and why they were able to get new people like Juliet. The purge with Dharma would have been back in the 1980's. Why would they still help?

We know it can leave we now know it can't come back, hence Ben not caring if Locke blew it up.
but what has me still puzzled was Ben's line to Locke back in the hatch "Not even God can find this island so that subamrine was the exception as built by Dharma to get supplies in and out build thebarracks the Others are now living in. 
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: BRBob on March 22, 2007, 04:52:03 PM
Since no one heard a plane and the air drop happens during a lockdown, I'm assuming that there is something special about the air drops.

I don't think the swan was resupplied by airplane at all.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 05:03:58 PM
I thought the supply/food drops had a parachute attached to them
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: casino on March 22, 2007, 05:23:16 PM
I have begun to doubt the air drop scenario as well.  Sure, there was a parachute attached, but nobody heard a plane.  Now, the plane could have been at an extremely high altitude, but once again we have Ben's statement that no one can see the Island. 

Then again, maybe there is a homing beacon for the airplane that is like the sonar beacon, and they only turn it on when they need an air drop.  Nobody can "see" the island, but they can FIND the Island using the homing beacon. So, maybe the pilots never see the Island with their eyes, and just drop it based on the homing beacon.  They might even think they are just dropping it into the sea.

The other thing I thought about, though, was that it might not have been a parachute, but instead a deflated balloon.  Maybe the balloon was released from some big supply depot on the Island itself, floated to a certain area (by some steering mechanism) and then deflated to drop it at the correct location.  The main depot, then, is resupplied by boat or submarine.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: lost_soul12 on March 22, 2007, 05:29:52 PM
ok so we know that mike and walt left on the boat supposably back home so if they can get home by a boat then why cant ben and the others leave by boat unless they tricked mike and walt
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: casino on March 22, 2007, 05:34:20 PM
I think Ben and the Others CAN leave by boat...they just don't want to for two reasons.  One, they may be seen and questioned, and Two, the can leave but they won't be able to find their way back and they don't want that.

It's not the leaving that's the problem.  It's the finding your way back.  None of the Others seem to want to leave the Island permanently, save for Juliet.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 05:59:54 PM
OK to make myself clear once again
Ben implied that if the sub blows nobody will be able to LEAVE
He emphasized the fact that the sub provides the "illusion" that lets the others know that there is a way OFF the island.
I already inderstand that the sub cannot come back..(since the sky turned purple blah blah) I understood that during last weeks episode.

So again my only real question is why is the sub the only means that they can use to LEAVE the island
Thanks for all the great feedback some good stuff here that I had not thought of.  Now I have the food drops to worry about on top of it LOL :D  I always assumed they were dropped from the air....sigh....
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on March 22, 2007, 06:49:58 PM
this is where i think they werent actually air drops.  This is why the hatch went into lockdown mode, that way you didnt see the "4 wheeler" that pulled it through the jungle and left it there.  I dont actually believe that a plain or helecopter flew over and dropped the food.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 22, 2007, 06:53:59 PM
this is where i think they werent actually air drops.  This is why the hatch went into lockdown mode, that way you didnt see the "4 wheeler" that pulled it through the jungle and left it there.  I dont actually believe that a plain or helecopter flew over and dropped the food.
You'd think that Kate/Locke/Sayid with their tracking experience would have noticed evidence of this, though. :-\
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: puff6962 on March 22, 2007, 06:55:48 PM
What happens to a magnetic field in water?  It shrinks due to the conductivity of the medium.  Thus, whatever is encompassing and hiding the island can be superceded by travel underwater.  The sub may additionally be titanium, as many Russkie subs were, and that would allow a magnetically neutral object for travel.  
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: scrod on March 22, 2007, 10:53:15 PM
WAITAMINNIT!!!!!
Why can't there be air drops?  In the recent past there were 2 airplanes (flight 815 and Yemi's) and a balloon that made it to the island.  Not to mention migratory birds and a racing yacht.  So there is some way to get to the island, just may not be a way to navigate to it reliably.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Gordon Shumway on March 22, 2007, 11:01:13 PM
Speaking of re-supply.  How is otherville re-supplied?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: jugdish on March 22, 2007, 11:06:03 PM
I have a feeling I may be saying this often. Not everything is a big mystery. No way they dragged the food through  the jungle and not leave any marks. The lockdown was there so the food could be dropped off.

The story is told to us facutally. They do not lie to us.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Psych0666 on March 22, 2007, 11:08:16 PM
Also was there not a thingy in the video in the flame that was about air drops, I'm thinkin the homing beacon for the plane sounds like a good idea, and how do we know they only happen during a lockdown (can't remember) and about the sub being the only way off the island.............. dunno, seems like they should be able to leave by boat, but Desmondp came back, maybe Walt and Micheal will too, maybe the compass bearing they were given is complete bull****, and maybe, just maybe Ben's the only one that knows it, but then maybe what he said about the sub is bull**** too, just a way to manipulate some more, making sure Locke would blow it up, extra incentive like, 'Ye blow that up and I'm actually totally screwed cos everyone here will start getting restless about the fact they really can't go home now' but to be honest I just don't know so I'm gonna wait and see, wait and see.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: TXFlyboy on March 22, 2007, 11:36:13 PM
Okay LG, I'll take a shot at your question.  If, prior to the Swan destruction, there was a large magnetic anomaly then a wet compass used on planes and boats would be affected.  Ben providing Michael a heading would only lead to the same situation Desmond found himself in.  The compass needle would deflect back to the larger magnetic source (the island - rather than the true north pole) thus as they sailed and the compass showed a course they would really be traveling in a circle around the island.
The sub by using the sonar for depth and the island homing beacon could traverse in a straight line.  They would simply need to follow the soundings from the beacon (louder to softer when departing and vise versa when returning) and ignore the sub compass.  Once they were far enough from the island to escape the magnetic anomaly they could resume on a compass based navigation.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Psych0666 on March 22, 2007, 11:39:46 PM
Okay LG, I'll take a shot at your question.  If, prior to the Swan destruction, there was a large magnetic anomaly then a wet compass used on planes and boats would be affected.  Ben providing Michael a heading would only lead to the same situation Desmond found himself in.  The compass needle would deflect back to the larger magnetic source (the island - rather than the true north pole) thus as they sailed and the compass showed a course they would really be traveling in a circle around the island.
The sub by using the sonar for depth and the island homing beacon could traverse in a straight line.  They would simply need to follow the soundings from the beacon (louder to softer when departing and vise versa when returning) and ignore the sub compass.  Once they were far enough from the island to escape the magnetic anomaly they could resume on a compass based navigation.

Well that makes sence :D I like it
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 22, 2007, 11:55:51 PM
yes it all makes sense and I like it too
But......
since the anomaly they should not have the same problem correct?
Now the compass would work properly right?
Or am I missing something about the whole magnetic field thing?

So i guess my question should have been since Ben and Patchy knew about the anomaly and that there would no longer be a magnetic pull, why then would he insinuate that if the sub blows there would be no more hope for the people to get off the island
Was it just part of the con job?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 23, 2007, 12:00:13 AM
WAITAMINNIT!!!!!
Why can't there be air drops?  In the recent past there were 2 airplanes (flight 815 and Yemi's) and a balloon that made it to the island.  Not to mention migratory birds and a racing yacht.  So there is some way to get to the island, just may not be a way to navigate to it reliably.

Agree 100% and I agree with Juggy too, that sometimes we seem to loose focus on what they tell us and go off track by over analyzing things
I think the food/supply drops are done by air.  Everything that they have shown us leads us to this logical assumption.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: puff6962 on March 24, 2007, 02:47:07 PM
Why is the now purged Dharma initiative still supplying the island at all?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 24, 2007, 02:51:41 PM
Why is the now purged Dharma initiative still supplying the island at all?
I believe that the current inhabitants of the island were still maintaining the illusion of the Dharma work still being done.  The button was still being pushed after all.  It will be interresting to see if the food drops continue now that the Swan & the Flame are gone.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Nancy Drew on March 24, 2007, 03:04:07 PM
What if the food isn't dropped but brought in via tunnels?  The ground that the pallet was sitting on could be like an elevator raising it into place from the 20' deep tunnel system that we saw on the map of Otherville.  I don't think it could have been a drop just for the simple reason that no one on the beach heard the sound of a plane or chopper.  And I don't know this for sure, but it would make sense that a plane dropping a pallet of that size, even with all the parachutes on it, couldn't target the exact landing zone if it were flying too high, thus not being heard.  So it would have had to come in low enough to drop it.  Did we see any parachutes with the food drop?  Not only that, but there were trees and brush around and none of that seemed like it had had a huge, heavy pallet dropped through it.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Wishbone on March 24, 2007, 06:03:55 PM
I don't believe that the sub was the only way off the island - someone has already mentioned Ben's illusion and I think this is all it is. He needs the others to trust him and not doubt him therefore he has to make them believe it is the only way so people like Juliette will stay put and stop complaining. But he also needs the others to believe he is a man of his word and therefore had to send Walt and Michael off in the boat otherwise he would lose some of his power over the others but I think that Walt and Michael will be back eventually just like Dessie.

As for the food drops - I think it is just how it looks - food supply dropped from a plane with a parachute attached. The others have Dharma food so maybe they usually intercept the food but the losties beat them this time. I think the others used their comms to make Dharma believe there was still experiments going on so they could continue to get the food and since the anomoly they might not get anymore. I thought there was a lot of talk centred around Ben's fridge, maybe just to highlight the fact that he is using Dharma products.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: SmokeyTheBeast4 on March 24, 2007, 06:58:44 PM
If nobody can find the island than what did those guys in the arctic station find
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 24, 2007, 07:09:33 PM
If nobody can find the island than what did those guys in the arctic station find

I think it was the magnetic (?) surge released from the hatch.

If it was, though, I'm not sure why they were particularly monitoring for one
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on March 24, 2007, 07:12:13 PM
I think it was because Pennys father is a part of all this and she found something about a magnetic island or something like that.  She sent people somewhere to find it.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: mindsparkle on March 24, 2007, 07:12:58 PM
I don't understand why everyone believes a word Ben says... I think he is all mind games and was telling Locke what Locke needed to hear in order to be manipulated...

why would Ben choose Locke to confide that he is insecure about being "him" and appeasing his "people" -- he wouldn't.  It was a made up story...

as Rousseau said, he will lie and lie and lie some more!
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: ChellyKins on March 24, 2007, 08:48:47 PM
Now I have the food drops to worry about on top of it LOL :D  I always assumed they were dropped from the air....sigh....

There is NO WAY on God's green earth that I will accept the idea that the food drops came from some hot air balloon or the sub. There was a skid of freakin food people!!!! MEN CAN NOT CARRY THAT FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER WITHOUT SOMEONE CATCHING THEM IN THE PROCESS!! IF they can even carry it! Is there a magical forklift that picks the skid up, drives super quietly to the drop location from wherever in the heck it came from then magically disappears? There was a chute attached to that skid of food. The skid was enormous amounts of food. The food is being brought in by plane drops of some kind. SOMEHOW...I just don't know how.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: ChellyKins on March 24, 2007, 08:52:42 PM
I don't understand why everyone believes a word Ben says... I think he is all mind games and was telling Locke what Locke needed to hear in order to be manipulated...

why would Ben choose Locke to confide that he is insecure  about being "him" and appeasing his "people" -- he wouldn't.  It was a made up story...

as Rousseau said, he will lie and lie and lie some more!

This is something I have had on my mind lately...when they show Ben in the wheelchair he looks all weak and fragile and tiny. As if that is what they want you to think of him. He's not. We seen him manipulate EVERYONE at one point or another. He's not weak. He's not fragile. He's playing with our losties' minds. He's almost better at this game than Sayid.  :o So I do not agree that the sub is the ONLY way off the island or that what he is telling Locke is even remotely close to reality.

Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Cardacct on March 24, 2007, 09:24:12 PM
I agree with that.  I don't think that we can really believe anything that Ben says. 

I like the explanation of the sub and the sonar and its non-reliance on the compass.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: goober on March 24, 2007, 10:14:32 PM
I agree with that.  I don't think that we can really believe anything that Ben says. 


 
WORD
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Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: TXFlyboy on March 24, 2007, 11:58:20 PM
WAITAMINNIT!!!!!
Why can't there be air drops?  In the recent past there were 2 airplanes (flight 815 and Yemi's) and a balloon that made it to the island.  Not to mention migratory birds and a racing yacht.  So there is some way to get to the island, just may not be a way to navigate to it reliably.

Agree 100% and I agree with Juggy too, that sometimes we seem to loose focus on what they tell us and go off track by over analyzing things
I think the food/supply drops are done by air.  Everything that they have shown us leads us to this logical assumption.

Okay here's another item for consideration.  Being a private pilot myself I know I rely on GPS for primary navigation.  If a supply drop plane used GPS coordinates for navigation they might be able to cross the island. If they were flying at a high enough altitude - the magical magnetic island wouldn't affect the wet compass as much because of the distance.  Now to relate this to 815 - you recall Desmond missed inputing the numbers at the Swan the day of the crash - that was verified by his conversations with the losties.  Perhaps his error at the station caused some problem with the 815 GPS/Compass navigation causing the navigation error and ultimately the crash.  It will be interesting to see if there are any more drops since the destruction of the Flame
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Nancy Drew on March 25, 2007, 12:53:11 AM
I don't understand why everyone believes a word Ben says... I think he is all mind games and was telling Locke what Locke needed to hear in order to be manipulated...

why would Ben choose Locke to confide that he is insecure  about being "him" and appeasing his "people" -- he wouldn't.  It was a made up story...

as Rousseau said, he will lie and lie and lie some more!

This is something I have had on my mind lately...when they show Ben in the wheelchair he looks all weak and fragile and tiny. As if that is what they want you to think of him. He's not. We seen him manipulate EVERYONE at one point or another. He's not weak. He's not fragile. He's playing with our losties' minds. He's almost better at this game than Sayid.  :o So I do not agree that the sub is the ONLY way off the island or that what he is telling Locke is even remotely close to reality.



I have been wondering about the wheelchair too, only on a different level.  I don't understand why he is in one in the first place.  All Jack did was remove a tumor from the spine.  I can't say that I know what that procedure is like, but I do know what MAJOR back surgery is like and they had me up and walking the next day (not that I didn't fight them every step of the way!!).  To my knowledge, Ben isn't paralysed, unless I missed a step!  (I wish I had had his handle above his bed, though, when I was recouperating.  That would have been helpful!)
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on March 25, 2007, 12:59:18 AM
because it was his spine not just his back.  It takes a while to recover from spinal surgery and u want to let it heel before you start to walk again.  It could also have soemthing to do with Jack cutting open the nerver sack or whatever.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 25, 2007, 01:01:07 AM
Well Nancy Drew!  I think that he wanted the wheelchair as part of his manipulation act.  Make himself appear weaker than he really is.  Who knows, maybe he's just about to jump up outta that chair and give John a left hook to the kisser
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: mindsparkle on March 25, 2007, 01:52:38 AM
I, too, think the wheel chair just adds to the theatrics... Ben is probably not well yet and should be careful and using a wheel chair to move him long distances makes sense, but just to get out of bed... that was pure acting... darn he's good
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Maxor127 on March 25, 2007, 07:29:06 AM
If you can walk around after getting a deadly tumor removed from your spine plus your kidney punctured (or whatever it was) then you're a better person than me.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: mindsparkle on March 25, 2007, 08:44:59 AM
My experience has been that after most major surgeries they want you up and out of bed, walking is the best way to keep a patient from developing congestion in their lungs and other complications that come with lying down too much.  I do speak from personal experience and asked... there is an element of doubt because I certainly have never had a tumor removed, but I have had kidney surgery and was up the same day.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Psych0666 on March 25, 2007, 11:27:25 AM
Well I figured it was cos his thingy got infected, and Jack did say he might not walk again. Well thats what I thought anyway, didn't think it was acting.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: scrod on March 25, 2007, 01:51:02 PM
if it was wheelchair vs walking for recovery, then he would not be pulling his body weight up by his arms.  The surgery was in a place where you would not want to do any heavy lifting for a while (ok, ok  it's tv, i know).  He could have had some nerve damage that will heal over time, but won't allow him to walk right now.

...Or he could be a lying bastard looking to garner some sympathy.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: ChellyKins on March 25, 2007, 04:40:11 PM
Well I figured it was cos his thingy got infected, and Jack did say he might not walk again. Well thats what I thought anyway, didn't think it was acting.


You know, I find it so funny that A) NONE of us can stay on topic lmao! I'm not bashing, just laughing at it and B) you said his thingy got infected, sorry...but even THLAY would laugh at that one!  :D


Wheelchair = sympathy
Sub only way off = Ben is a lying bastard.

the end. lol
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Nancy Drew on March 25, 2007, 04:58:21 PM
Sorry, I did go way off topic with that one :D  My bad.

Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Psych0666 on March 26, 2007, 09:48:05 AM
Well I figured it was cos his thingy got infected, and Jack did say he might not walk again. Well thats what I thought anyway, didn't think it was acting.


You know, I find it so funny that A) NONE of us can stay on topic lmao! I'm not bashing, just laughing at it and B) you said his thingy got infected, sorry...but even THLAY would laugh at that one!  :D


Wheelchair = sympathy
Sub only way off = Ben is a lying bastard.

the end. lol

It's hard to stay on topic when the convo goes all over the place, ach well, makes me laugh too really, I always use thingy when I can't remember the word I'm after but I'm sure you got what I really meant, I've given up trying to figure what the hell went on with the sub now, whether it's the only way off or not, I'm gonna wait and see. Gotta agree that Bens a lying bastard, just that all the best lies have a basis in truth, it's trying to figure out which bits are which thats the hard part. (did that come out wrong lol)
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: Creflo on March 26, 2007, 11:35:07 AM
The Island messes with compasses and perhaps satellite and GPS.

It lay unnoticed (except for a few who were pulled in) for centuries.  Once the first person was able to stumble upon the island, recognize its value, and find a way to return, it became populated by DHARMA et al.  This first return voyage was probably a (the?) sub.

This happened only as a result of technology available in the last 40 years or so.  It was probably a military expedition first.  They would've set up basic supplies, communication, and a beacon.  Then DHARMA was brought in after that by either the same forces or by innocent researchers.  This would mean that Ben (if he's truthful about living there always) predates DHARMA and probably fought against them in "the purge".

The natural properties of The Island which confounded previous explorers were somewhat tamed by the DHARMA stations.  The Swan didn't cause the magnetic anomaly, it merely contained it.  When supply drops were scheduled, something else happened in the station which allowed the planes to locate them.  With the station destroyed, the magnetic anomaly is more intense and unpredictable.

This would explain how:
- The sub WAS able to travel back and forth before the failsafe
- Now the sub cannot return via sonar
- DHARMA planes WERE able tune into the beacon and drop supplies (because they knew what to look/listen for)
- Now the planes cannot or will not return
- Rescuers will continue to be confounded, but there are probably Powers That Be who know roughly where The Island is located.
- None of the other Others vessels are seaworthy.  The big yacht probably wouldn't fare any better than Desmond, a trained captain of a no-fuel-required top-notch sailboat.  They would be Lost.

The big question is who are TPTB in regards to DHARMA supplies and communication.  Have the Others been pretending to be DHARMA for the last decades in order to continue to receive supplies?  Marvin Candle mentions rebellions/incidents in the films, so clearly DHARMA was aware of the other forces on The Island and set up countermeasures at least 10-20 years ago. 

My guess is that the two factions would be former military (including Ben's family and Nicolai) who were there first, and DHARMA hippies who came in the 70's for research.  Over time, there were interactions, trading, feuding, lines drawn, and finally a purge.  Ben's people probably have an understanding with whoever continues to provide DHARMA supplies.  If someone were to leave, they probably wouldn't know whose door to go knocking on to get in touch with TPTB.  Without the beacon or the knowledge of TPTB, they could never return or bring help.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: goober on March 26, 2007, 01:01:59 PM
Sounds reasonable. It was stated in the Swan video (or Pearl?) that the island has natural magnetic properties. The Swan acting as sort of a containment field makes sense.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: jugdish on March 26, 2007, 01:07:55 PM
Creflo this was a fresh of breath air after all the silly stuff I have been reading this week. Great post, I agree with it all.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 26, 2007, 02:02:13 PM
The Island messes with compasses and perhaps satellite and GPS.

It lay unnoticed (except for a few who were pulled in) for centuries.  Once the first person was able to stumble upon the island, recognize its value, and find a way to return, it became populated by DHARMA et al.  This first return voyage was probably a (the?) sub.

This happened only as a result of technology available in the last 40 years or so.  It was probably a military expedition first.  They would've set up basic supplies, communication, and a beacon.  Then DHARMA was brought in after that by either the same forces or by innocent researchers.  This would mean that Ben (if he's truthful about living there always) predates DHARMA and probably fought against them in "the purge".

The natural properties of The Island which confounded previous explorers were somewhat tamed by the DHARMA stations.  The Swan didn't cause the magnetic anomaly, it merely contained it.  When supply drops were scheduled, something else happened in the station which allowed the planes to locate them.  With the station destroyed, the magnetic anomaly is more intense and unpredictable.

This would explain how:
- The sub WAS able to travel back and forth before the failsafe
- Now the sub cannot return via sonar
- DHARMA planes WERE able tune into the beacon and drop supplies (because they knew what to look/listen for)
- Now the planes cannot or will not return
- Rescuers will continue to be confounded, but there are probably Powers That Be who know roughly where The Island is located.
- None of the other Others vessels are seaworthy.  The big yacht probably wouldn't fare any better than Desmond, a trained captain of a no-fuel-required top-notch sailboat.  They would be Lost.

The big question is who are TPTB in regards to DHARMA supplies and communication.  Have the Others been pretending to be DHARMA for the last decades in order to continue to receive supplies?  Marvin Candle mentions rebellions/incidents in the films, so clearly DHARMA was aware of the other forces on The Island and set up countermeasures at least 10-20 years ago. 

My guess is that the two factions would be former military (including Ben's family and Nicolai) who were there first, and DHARMA hippies who came in the 70's for research.  Over time, there were interactions, trading, feuding, lines drawn, and finally a purge.  Ben's people probably have an understanding with whoever continues to provide DHARMA supplies.  If someone were to leave, they probably wouldn't know whose door to go knocking on to get in touch with TPTB.  Without the beacon or the knowledge of TPTB, they could never return or bring help.
Great post!  I also agree. :)
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: AstroJones on March 27, 2007, 12:31:26 AM
I started asking myself this same question tonight about the sub and the boat (the original question LG asked).  I missed this thread last week, but found it with a little searching and just had to comment (after reading all 5 pages! geez!! ;) )

LG, I agree with several others in this thread.  I think Ben quickly recognized that Locke knew of the sub, but not the boats.  You remember, when Locke first mentioned the sub Ben said, what sub.  Then, later he knew it was no use, and he saw the opportunity to manipulate John into doing what he really needed him to do.  Destroy the sub.  So he told Locke the story about the sub being the only way off the island.  Told Locke about the illusion that he needed.

Now, anyone who knows anything about lying and manipulating people will tell you, you never lie about any more than you have to.  You only want to bend and twist the truth, otherwise you get lost in your own lies.  So I do think a great deal about what Ben said is true.  But that sub can't be the only way off the island.  There's no way I believe Desmond's boat or their yacht couldn't get someone off the island.  So I have to assume that it was all a manipulative trick of Ben's.  Nothing else makes sense to me.

But I have another question.  Jack's a smart guy right?  Why would Jack ever believe that the sub is the only way off the island?  I agree it might be the only way off and back on the island, but why isn't Jack demanding the use of the Yacht, which he's been on, to get off the island?
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: scrod on March 27, 2007, 12:56:05 AM

But I have another question.  Jack's a smart guy right?  Why would Jack ever believe that the sub is the only way off the island?  I agree it might be the only way off and back on the island, but why isn't Jack demanding the use of the Yacht, which he's been on, to get off the island?
That certainly should be next requst, but we haven't seen it since it was confiscated,  Hopefully it wasnt moored next to the sub :(
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: puff6962 on March 27, 2007, 12:00:41 PM
The sub is the only way off because only a submarine has a fencer valve.  It's all about ball bearings boy.  Now get me some windex and some 10W-40!
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: goober on March 27, 2007, 12:47:28 PM
Hehe

Fletch Rulez!  :D
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: the JoshMeister on April 04, 2007, 06:35:09 PM
My big question last night was:
Why is the submarine the only way off the island?

Why can't they just take one of the boats?

Any thoughts or ideas about this?

Do they have to travel through underwater channels to get back and forth?

Curt Yanko and I talked about this on the Black Rock Podcast.  Here's a link to the MP3 (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-21826/TS-13279.mp3).  The whole podcast episode is an hour and a half, but the part that's relevant to this thread starts at about 18 minutes, 0 seconds into the show.  Here are my show notes (http://thelostmeister.blogspot.com/2007/03/man-from-tallahassee-josh-guest-cohosts.html) which include a summary of that part of the discussion.
Title: Re: Why is the submarine the only way off the island?
Post by: LostGirlDeb on April 09, 2007, 04:20:41 PM
My big question last night was:
Why is the submarine the only way off the island?

Why can't they just take one of the boats?

Any thoughts or ideas about this?

Do they have to travel through underwater channels to get back and forth?

Curt Yanko and I talked about this on the Black Rock Podcast.  Here's a link to the MP3 (http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-21826/TS-13279.mp3).  The whole podcast episode is an hour and a half, but the part that's relevant to this thread starts at about 18 minutes, 0 seconds into the show.  Here are my show notes (http://thelostmeister.blogspot.com/2007/03/man-from-tallahassee-josh-guest-cohosts.html) which include a summary of that part of the discussion.

Thanks I will check it out :D