Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x12 => Topic started by: jules778 on March 18, 2007, 04:19:05 PM

Title: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jules778 on March 18, 2007, 04:19:05 PM
I decided to make a poll I wanted to see the concensus!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 18, 2007, 05:22:02 PM
I voted YES!  :)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jugdish on March 18, 2007, 05:24:29 PM
You know I voted YES!!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: mindsparkle on March 18, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
We need more voters...
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on March 18, 2007, 07:37:53 PM
Since I have been a proponent of the multiple universe theory, I voted yes, with the caveat that he did also die.  Make sense?
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: kelvinlives on March 18, 2007, 08:40:36 PM
How did I vote?
What is my current name?
 ;)

Christian LIVES!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: Nancy Drew on March 18, 2007, 09:08:20 PM
I voted a maybe.  I am  not totally on the bandwagon with this theory.  Of course, by voting "maybe" I realize I chickened out on either being right or wrong when the theory is proved one way or another, but I still can't get past the fact that Jack ID'd him at the morgue.  I can, however, wrap my mind around the fact that Dharma and Hanso are so huge that people could be involved in it in all walks of life.  That even a mortician could be fooled in some way that the man was dead, or that he could have been in on some attempt to make Christian seem dead to the world.  If Christian is alive, but knew he was going away, that would make him going to Austrailia to see Claire understandable.  (To say Good-bye).  Hanso could be into some re-animation project, though too, along with their life-expectancy project.  They could be bringing people back to life, like having a Pet Cemetary, or something.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: scrod on March 18, 2007, 09:27:55 PM
I think the only person you have to hurdle in faking Christian's death is Jack.  He is highly unlikely to give him a full exam in the morgue - a doctor may be the easiest one to fool!

Why is he still alive?  How the hell should I know?  Just know that he is.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 18, 2007, 09:58:32 PM
I think the only person you have to hurdle in faking Christian's death is Jack.  He is highly unlikely to give him a full exam in the morgue - a doctor may be the easiest one to fool!

Why is he still alive?  How the hell should I know?  Just know that he is.
SCROD!  My MAN!  I didn't know you're on our team!  lol

You have to remember, also, that Jack wasn't looking @ Christian as a doctor looks @ a patient, but as a son looks @ a father who he already believes is dead.  It was his emotions driving his thinking @ that point, & he could have easily missed anything awry.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: MichiganFan on March 18, 2007, 11:25:23 PM
Christian on the island initially seemed to be an incarnation of the smoke monster. Hie appeared and disappeared, plus there was a sound of the ice in the glass when he was running through the jungle. Christian being alive now would seem to conflict with how he was presented earlier. I voted for dead. Explain the earlier vision and I might become a believer.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: scrod on March 18, 2007, 11:40:12 PM
There were visions of Walt that would seem to be the smoke monster, so there is some precedent for live people represented by smokie.  Probably other examples I am too lazy to think of right now.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: LouE68 on March 19, 2007, 12:35:50 AM
I think the only person you have to hurdle in faking Christian's death is Jack.  He is highly unlikely to give him a full exam in the morgue - a doctor may be the easiest one to fool!

Why is he still alive?  How the hell should I know?  Just know that he is.
Good question to ponder, if Christian is still alive...why is he still alive...what are the motives for faking his death?
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: scrod on March 19, 2007, 12:44:19 AM
I think the only person you have to hurdle in faking Christian's death is Jack.  He is highly unlikely to give him a full exam in the morgue - a doctor may be the easiest one to fool!

Why is he still alive?  How the hell should I know?  Just know that he is.
Good question to ponder, if Christian is still alive...why is he still alive...what are the motives for faking his death?
Given a choice, I think I would rather fake my own death than actually die, but that's just me.  Also allows him to avoid the long security lines at the airport and customs. ;)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: Ladybug on March 19, 2007, 01:01:07 AM
I voted a maybe.  I am  not totally on the bandwagon with this theory.  Of course, by voting "maybe" I realize I chickened out on either being right or wrong when the theory is proved one way or another, but I still can't get past the fact that Jack ID'd him at the morgue.  I can, however, wrap my mind around the fact that Dharma and Hanso are so huge that people could be involved in it in all walks of life.  That even a mortician could be fooled in some way that the man was dead, or that he could have been in on some attempt to make Christian seem dead to the world.  If Christian is alive, but knew he was going away, that would make him going to Austrailia to see Claire understandable.  (To say Good-bye).  Hanso could be into some re-animation project, though too, along with their life-expectancy project.  They could be bringing people back to life, like having a Pet Cemetary, or something.
i agree.  i can't make up my mind.  i don't think they could bring him back to life, but i'm starting to believe he might have never been dead.  but i don't really think tptb will go there.  i don't think claire and jack will ever know of their connection, and if christian IS alive, they will eventually find out.  so i don't know.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 19, 2007, 01:20:54 AM
There were visions of Walt that would seem to be the smoke monster, so there is some precedent for live people represented by smokie.  Probably other examples I am too lazy to think of right now.
I know I might be shooting myself in the foot by saying this, but I do not believe that Smoky was responsible for Walt's appearances, based on Klugh's questions to Michael on S2E22.

Quote
MS. KLUGH: Did Walt ever appear in a place he wasn't supposed to be? You say he was half way around the world -- did you see him?
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on March 19, 2007, 04:37:09 AM
I voted yes, he's alive.  He and Jack have a fence to mend, not to mention the problems with Claire.  If Christian is dead then Jack and Claire will never know they are half-sibs, so why did the writers even mention it?  Claire doesn't even know Christian's name!  He's alive!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: WhatThe on March 19, 2007, 06:45:11 AM
I voted "No". Christian is dead in my eyes because:

1) They showed him as dead.
2) There isn't a reason given for him to want to fake his own death.
3) We already had Locke's father faking HIS own death. To use that twist twice in the same show would be lame.
4) The police found him in an alley; the examining doctors did tests on his body and discovered he had a hugely high blood alcohol level; either both the police and the doctors were in on the fake death, or Christian really did die.
5) They actually show Christian evaporating into thin air while Jack was chasing him in the jungle. Kinda gives the impression of him being a hallucination.

I do, though, believe that Christian was murdered.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: thebeann on March 19, 2007, 08:14:59 AM
I voted no. Jack also "saw" Christian when he (Jack) was sleep-deprived. And, we know Smokey likes to manifest into people (possibly things, animals) seemingly from people's memories (like Eko's brother, possibly Kate's horse).
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: kelvinlives on March 19, 2007, 08:27:03 AM
Everyone seems to forget the girl that drowned the Eko investigated.
Her father was the same guy that told Claire to go to the States.

If Christian is dead AND his body was in the casket: Where did it go?
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: eelpie62 on March 19, 2007, 09:02:43 AM
There were visions of Walt that would seem to be the smoke monster, so there is some precedent for live people represented by smokie.  Probably other examples I am too lazy to think of right now.

But Bea implies that Walt is someone who knows the answer to the Firesign Theatre question "how can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all?".
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 19, 2007, 09:49:34 AM
Everyone seems to forget the girl that drowned the Eko investigated.
Her father was the same guy that told Claire to go to the States.

If Christian is dead AND his body was in the casket: Where did it go?

Same place Yemi's body went.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 19, 2007, 12:32:48 PM
I voted yes, he's alive.  He and Jack have a fence to mend, not to mention the problems with Claire.  If Christian is dead then Jack and Claire will never know they are half-sibs, so why did the writers even mention it?  Claire doesn't even know Christian's name!  He's alive!
I believe that the Others know this info & will reveal it to one or the other of them if they should need "motivation."

Also- I'm thinking that Jack has his dad's wallet from the hotel room in Australia, so he would have a photo ID for Claire to see if there was a question.  I know it may be reaching... :-\ :)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: kelvinlives on March 19, 2007, 02:41:14 PM
Everyone seems to forget the girl that drowned the Eko investigated.
Her father was the same guy that told Claire to go to the States.

If Christian is dead AND his body was in the casket: Where did it go?

Same place Yemi's body went.

Yes Goober, where is that? And what is down with the bodies?
Until we find out that they bodies are place lovingly in a special place by the Island/Smokie, then we can't rule out that Christian's body was not there because he is not dead. Now if Jack didn't put the body in the casket, it would be a different story. We don't know the whole story, and just assume that he was able to get the body on the plane at the last minute.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: Wishbone on March 19, 2007, 04:03:59 PM
I don't think he's alive. There are other ways for Jack and Claire to discover their connection - just like Sawyer made his connection to Jacks dad.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 20, 2007, 09:15:38 AM
Everyone seems to forget the girl that drowned the Eko investigated.
Her father was the same guy that told Claire to go to the States.

If Christian is dead AND his body was in the casket: Where did it go?

Same place Yemi's body went.

Yes Goober, where is that? And what is down with the bodies?
Until we find out that they bodies are place lovingly in a special place by the Island/Smokie, then we can't rule out that Christian's body was not there because he is not dead. Now if Jack didn't put the body in the casket, it would be a different story. We don't know the whole story, and just assume that he was able to get the body on the plane at the last minute.

Umm. Dude that makes no sense... ???

Just because the body is gone he must be alive???

Specious reasoning.

Maybe he's alive, maybe he ain't, right now the evidence overwhelmingly points towards worm-food methinks.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: kelvinlives on March 20, 2007, 09:58:13 AM
Goober I said you can't rule it out. I never said he has to be alive because you can't find the body.

I wished people would read what other people write instead of just repeating that something doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jugdish on March 20, 2007, 10:05:35 AM
The only damning evidence of Christina being dead is that Jack saw his body in the morgue. Tough to get around but I can with some hollywood magic. GIve him some drugs to lower his breathing and bloodpressure. Jack only looked at him for about 10 seconds tops and he broke down. So he could have been fooled.

I also believe the Christian on the island are visisons from dehydrated Jack. Not christian running through the jungle.

Reasons he is alive.

1) Airline worker was argueing that Jack did not have the documentation to get the body on the plane. But the casket was on the plane. How did it get on the plane? Well an empty caket does not need documentation. No body was in the casket so it was put on the plane.

2) Suspecious hotel room, with the cigarettes and medicine and the wallet. All clues to the truth. Very cryptic clue in Jacks question of who would leave their wallet behind.

3) The producers saying that if you die on the island, you stay dead, Christian did not die on the island, he is alive

4) would make for a great story line.

5) Christian is so involved in getting people on that plane and on the island. Jack, Claire, anna ... he is very involved in this drama unfolding.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: Bacon on March 20, 2007, 11:56:13 AM
I agree with Jugdish on this.  There are too many reasons that Christian could be alive.  Look at some of the things Hanso studied, cryogenics, life extension.....not to mention that there were bottles of Hydralazine (which lowers blood pressure) in Christians hotel room when Jack searched it.  I guess only time will tell, but I dont think we have seen any real proof that he is dead!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: JBRam on March 20, 2007, 11:59:11 AM
I think we have seen real proof that he is dead (Jack saw him in the morgue).

We have NOT seen real proof he is alive. However, we do have some really good speculation points.

LOST is generally going to show us the truth. Until I see Christian alive, I am going to believe he is dead.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 20, 2007, 02:02:53 PM
The only damning evidence of Christina being dead is that Jack saw his body in the morgue. Tough to get around but I can with some hollywood magic. GIve him some drugs to lower his breathing and bloodpressure. Jack only looked at him for about 10 seconds tops and he broke down. So he could have been fooled.

I also believe the Christian on the island are visisons from dehydrated Jack. Not christian running through the jungle.

Reasons he is alive.

1) Airline worker was argueing that Jack did not have the documentation to get the body on the plane. But the casket was on the plane. How did it get on the plane? Well an empty caket does not need documentation. No body was in the casket so it was put on the plane.

2) Suspecious hotel room, with the cigarettes and medicine and the wallet. All clues to the truth. Very cryptic clue in Jacks question of who would leave their wallet behind.

3) The producers saying that if you die on the island, you stay dead, Christian did not die on the island, he is alive

4) would make for a great story line.

5) Christian is so involved in getting people on that plane and on the island. Jack, Claire, anna ... he is very involved in this drama unfolding.
Juggy- are you sure there were cigarettes? ???

& do you know why I'm asking? 8)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: Wishbone on March 20, 2007, 05:13:55 PM
There were definitely cigarettes - and I don't know why you're asking
(but I'm not Juggy) :D
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jules778 on March 20, 2007, 05:18:16 PM
cigrette that was smoking in the pearl station right?   Good Idea
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 20, 2007, 05:33:00 PM
cigrette that was smoking in the pearl station right?   Good Idea
You got it, jules. :)  Very interesting. :)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: darinfic on March 20, 2007, 05:58:14 PM
i voted yes. i can't get past the name christian shepherd. is it an allusion to jesus? i don't think he died and came back, but i do think he faked his death. perhaps ana-lucia being a bodyguard was meant a little more literally. she was an alibi in that she witnessed him going to drink himself to death, thus giving him an out.

also, the name shepherd is key in that he is most likely (in my mind) a recruiter for the others. he was integral in getting ana and jack on the flight, and less directly help set in the motions for claire.

i just finsihed reading the third policeman as well, and really like the quantam theory speculation. notice the others seem to always give choices, increasing reality "splits"
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 21, 2007, 09:30:14 AM
Goober I said you can't rule it out. I never said he has to be alive because you can't find the body.

I wished people would read what other people write instead of just repeating that something doesn't make sense.


(A) You need to switch to decaf.

(B) This was your sentence:

"Until we find out that they bodies are place lovingly in a special place by the Island/Smokie, then we can't rule out that Christian's body was not there because he is not dead."

Besides being a grammatical wreck, it makes very little actual sense. Sounds to me like you are arguing that he is (or could be) alive. I fail to see how Christian's body being missing from the coffin is evidence of that. Yemi is gone also,... is he alive?

I did read your post many times. I simply could not understand what your point was. It sounded then, and now, that you were stating that Christian was alive and that your evidence was that his body was gone. Yet you were not arguing the same for Yemi, whose body also went missing. Thus I was confused.

Please refrain from jumping to conclusions about what I did and did not read or do. I do this for a living, I'm actually pretty good at reading and understanding what other people write.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: scrod on March 21, 2007, 10:05:13 AM
Yemi is gone also,... is he alive?


I know you are splitting hairs and being sarcastic, but for the edification of our younger viewers, we saw Yemi's body in a state that we could readily determine that he was deceased.  What with the missing flesh and all.

The same cannot be said for Christian.  The missing body is point that leads us to think that he may be alive.  Same is true of Kelvin.  The lack of a body introduces some doubt in the thought process.  In the next week or two we will likely have the same dilemma concerning Mikhail.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 21, 2007, 11:36:59 AM
Correct.

My point all along has been that the fact that Christian's body went missing means absolutely nothing thus far. Yemi's body is gone, as is Kelvin's. So that in and of itself is not very strong evidence.

Occam's Razor states that the simplest (least complicated) solution is usually the most correct one.

Utilizing that, Christian is most likely dead since all of the available evidence points to that conclusion. He may very well be alive, but I don't see the evidence for it and nobody has come up with a very convincing argument yet. There is much "jumping to a conclusion" rather than a systematic, logical argument in support of Christian's survival.

It may very well be that he is alive, however I don't think so. It has also been postulated that he is HIM, or Jacob, or one of the Others. I don't buy that either. If Locke and the others are too flawed to make it onto the list, then is a Drunk OK??? Anger and weakness are disqualifiers for Otherville membership, but being a Drunk who fathers a child out of wedlock and treats his wife and son as poorly as Christian did makes him a candidate for not just membership, but LEADERSHIP. If this turns out to be the case, then I would say that the writers of this show would lose mucho credibility.

Too contradictory IMHO.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 11:39:31 AM
Hey I thought we already did this!
Of course he is alive
Don't we have a list or something somewhere with people that agree?
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: a_dot_out on March 21, 2007, 11:52:16 AM
I voted 'maybe' but lean closer to 'yes'.

For the record, my Magic-8 ball agrees.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: scrod on March 21, 2007, 11:54:43 AM
Correct.

My point all along has been that the fact that Christian's body went missing means absolutely nothing thus far. Yemi's body is gone, as is Kelvin's. So that in and of itself is not very strong evidence.

Occam's Razor states that the simplest (least complicated) solution is usually the most correct one.

Utilizing that, Christian is most likely dead since all of the available evidence points to that conclusion. He may very well be alive, but I don't see the evidence for it and nobody has come up with a very convincing argument yet. There is much "jumping to a conclusion" rather than a systematic, logical argument in support of Christian's survival.

It may very well be that he is alive, however I don't think so. It has also been postulated that he is HIM, or Jacob, or one of the Others. I don't buy that either. If Locke and the others are too flawed to make it onto the list, then is a Drunk OK??? Anger and weakness are disqualifiers for Otherville membership, but being a Drunk who fathers a child out of wedlock and treats his wife and son as poorly as Christian did makes him a candidate for not just membership, but LEADERSHIP. If this turns out to be the case, then I would say that the writers of this show would lose mucho credibility.

Too contradictory IMHO.
But sometimes leadership demands qualities from the rank and file that it does not possess itself - and not always in a reasonable way.

And while I'm on the subject - thanks Florida!

Remember Occam's Razor is only one tool. 

If we rely on evidence, we have seen Christian with our own eyes walking around the island at a point in time after his supposed death, wearing a suit that he would have been wearing in the coffin and the actual coffin is empty.  It would be reasonable to conclude that our previous information (from the mortician) may have been faulty and/or purposely tampered with to intentionally mislead us.  Jack would be unreliable due to his mental state, in addition I do not believe he gave him a thorough (or even cursory) examination to ensure he was dead.  He accepted the information he was given.

For motive, Christian had growing debt, a dwindling professional reputation and adult children experiencing great difficulty on 2 continents.  The time to 'disappear' and start over would be now, faking a death and taking an assumed identity could be part of that. 

Or (for the purposes of our story) he could have possessed unusual skill or information that would lead Mittlewerk/Dharma to recruit him - necessitating his disappearance.  Also would permanently stop his pain in the ass son from chasing around looking for him.  IF that is the plan, that part didn't work out so well.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 21, 2007, 12:03:11 PM
Correct.

My point all along has been that the fact that Christian's body went missing means absolutely nothing thus far. Yemi's body is gone, as is Kelvin's. So that in and of itself is not very strong evidence.

Occam's Razor states that the simplest (least complicated) solution is usually the most correct one.

Utilizing that, Christian is most likely dead since all of the available evidence points to that conclusion. He may very well be alive, but I don't see the evidence for it and nobody has come up with a very convincing argument yet. There is much "jumping to a conclusion" rather than a systematic, logical argument in support of Christian's survival.

It may very well be that he is alive, however I don't think so. It has also been postulated that he is HIM, or Jacob, or one of the Others. I don't buy that either. If Locke and the others are too flawed to make it onto the list, then is a Drunk OK??? Anger and weakness are disqualifiers for Otherville membership, but being a Drunk who fathers a child out of wedlock and treats his wife and son as poorly as Christian did makes him a candidate for not just membership, but LEADERSHIP. If this turns out to be the case, then I would say that the writers of this show would lose mucho credibility.

Too contradictory IMHO.
But sometimes leadership demands qualities from the rank and file that it does not possess itself - and not always in a reasonable way.

And while I'm on the subject - thanks Florida!

Remember Occam's Razor is only one tool. 

If we rely on evidence, we have seen Christian with our own eyes walking around the island at a point in time after his supposed death, wearing a suit that he would have been wearing in the coffin and the actual coffin is empty.  It would be reasonable to conclude that our previous information (from the mortician) may have been faulty and/or purposely tampered with to intentionally mislead us.  Jack would be unreliable due to his mental state, in addition I do not believe he gave him a thorough (or even cursory) examination to ensure he was dead.  He accepted the information he was given.

For motive, Christian had growing debt, a dwindling professional reputation and adult children experiencing great difficulty on 2 continents.  The time to 'disappear' and start over would be now, faking a death and taking an assumed identity could be part of that. 

Or (for the purposes of our story) he could have possessed unusual skill or information that would lead Mittlewerk/Dharma to recruit him - necessitating his disappearance.  Also would permanently stop his pain in the ass son from chasing around looking for him.  IF that is the plan, that part didn't work out so well.

However we also saw Kate's Horse, Dave, Yemi, etc. So that is not reliable evidence either.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 21, 2007, 12:04:10 PM
Hey I thought we already did this!
Of course he is alive
Don't we have a list or something somewhere with people that agree?

14 say Yes
19 say NO
7 maybes
2 who cares
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 12:21:23 PM
Hey I thought we already did this!
Of course he is alive
Don't we have a list or something somewhere with people that agree?

14 say Yes
19 say NO
7 maybes
2 who cares

LOL Goober-I could have sworn we had a thread with a "list" somewhere else is what I was saying  
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jugdish on March 21, 2007, 12:26:25 PM
Hey I thought we already did this!
Of course he is alive
Don't we have a list or something somewhere with people that agree?

14 say Yes
19 say NO
7 maybes
2 who cares

LOL Goober-I could have sworn we had a thread with a "list" somewhere else is what I was saying  

It is in lost talk or speculations.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jugdish on March 21, 2007, 12:38:28 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy

This list!!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 12:45:27 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy

This list!!
that could be it except I am not on it and I am pretty darn sure I asked you to add me
so no...that CANNOT BE IT!! ;)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jugdish on March 21, 2007, 12:46:21 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl (AKA Debs)
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 12:48:25 PM
Now THAT looks like the right list to me!!
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: scrod on March 21, 2007, 01:24:38 PM
Correct.

My point all along has been that the fact that Christian's body went missing means absolutely nothing thus far. Yemi's body is gone, as is Kelvin's. So that in and of itself is not very strong evidence.

Occam's Razor states that the simplest (least complicated) solution is usually the most correct one.

Utilizing that, Christian is most likely dead since all of the available evidence points to that conclusion. He may very well be alive, but I don't see the evidence for it and nobody has come up with a very convincing argument yet. There is much "jumping to a conclusion" rather than a systematic, logical argument in support of Christian's survival.

It may very well be that he is alive, however I don't think so. It has also been postulated that he is HIM, or Jacob, or one of the Others. I don't buy that either. If Locke and the others are too flawed to make it onto the list, then is a Drunk OK??? Anger and weakness are disqualifiers for Otherville membership, but being a Drunk who fathers a child out of wedlock and treats his wife and son as poorly as Christian did makes him a candidate for not just membership, but LEADERSHIP. If this turns out to be the case, then I would say that the writers of this show would lose mucho credibility.

Too contradictory IMHO.
But sometimes leadership demands qualities from the rank and file that it does not possess itself - and not always in a reasonable way.

And while I'm on the subject - thanks Florida!

Remember Occam's Razor is only one tool. 

If we rely on evidence, we have seen Christian with our own eyes walking around the island at a point in time after his supposed death, wearing a suit that he would have been wearing in the coffin and the actual coffin is empty.  It would be reasonable to conclude that our previous information (from the mortician) may have been faulty and/or purposely tampered with to intentionally mislead us.  Jack would be unreliable due to his mental state, in addition I do not believe he gave him a thorough (or even cursory) examination to ensure he was dead.  He accepted the information he was given.

For motive, Christian had growing debt, a dwindling professional reputation and adult children experiencing great difficulty on 2 continents.  The time to 'disappear' and start over would be now, faking a death and taking an assumed identity could be part of that. 

Or (for the purposes of our story) he could have possessed unusual skill or information that would lead Mittlewerk/Dharma to recruit him - necessitating his disappearance.  Also would permanently stop his pain in the ass son from chasing around looking for him.  IF that is the plan, that part didn't work out so well.

However we also saw Kate's Horse, Dave, Yemi, etc. So that is not reliable evidence either.
Not totally unreliable.  We also saw Walt at a point in time that he was absolutely alive.  I would discount the Dave thing, as he was seen off-island.  Remains unsolved in my mind if he was the continued manifestation of Hurley's brain or part of the island thing.  Even for Yemi, the only evidence that he is dead is that a necklace was found in a plane that apparently left Africa with him in it.  Those bones coulda been anybody  (ok,ok don't get yer panties in a bundle, I know it was him, just playing the other side of the issue)

Unfortunately, we would like to have corroborating witnesses.  With the exception of the Walt siting, I believe all these things were only one person at a time.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: airdudei on March 21, 2007, 02:36:34 PM
Christian is alive and well, and wouldn't it be awesome to see him in the next Jack flashback.
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: jules778 on March 21, 2007, 03:04:49 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl (AKA Debs)

I am adding myself to the list

starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl (AKA Debs)
Jules778
Title: Re: Since there seems to be a disagreement..
Post by: goober on March 21, 2007, 04:13:40 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy

This list!!

Doh!

I did not even know that existed.

LOL