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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x12 => Topic started by: jules778 on March 17, 2007, 05:41:07 PM

Title: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jules778 on March 17, 2007, 05:41:07 PM
I put this on here b/c I wanted to see what everyone else thought about Christian's last visit to see Claire.

I said that I think that Christian came to visit Claire around the time Claire went to see her mom to tell her she was pregnant. I think that Claire's mom must have died soon after that b/c Claire had finally made her peace with her mother and her mother finally let go. Christian, of course, was upset about the death... got really drunk and went to see Claire to give some support. I think that is when he went to her aunt's house banging on the door to see her. He wanted to be there for his daughter in her time of need. Since he wasn't able to see her, went on another drinking binge where he "died" (maybe or maybe not).
 this is where I think One of two things happened.
1) if he died Jack came to get the body and thus the sequence of events happened here
2) Christian faked his death hoping Jack would come and find out what he was doing in Australia. Find out about Claire... thus possibly giving her some support. That didn't happened so we just find them on the same flight...and thus the sequence of events happened here

What do you think happened... what was your theory about the two flashbacks and did you put them together in a different way?
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on March 17, 2007, 06:36:59 PM
I think the first when Christian first came to see Claire in her aunt told him to go away was the last time he came to see her when she was young. 

I think after she got pregnant and her bf left her she stayed in the apartment they were in or lived with some friends.  Not her aunt.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: snowyjoe on March 18, 2007, 01:34:33 AM
what if claire killed christian...??? whoa,.,,, twist time..
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: Ladybug on March 18, 2007, 01:15:28 PM
i think christian decided to pull the plug on claire's mom.  he was footing the bill for how long?  quite a while.  he decided to cut off the funds, and the plug got pulled.  i don't think he neccisssarily pulled the plug, but i think that because the funds were cut off the doctors recommended it to claire and her aunt.  sort of like, "hey, she's been comatose for 5 years with no progress.  i think it's time to let her go.  plus it's going to cost you $5000 per day you keep her alive because daddy's money is no longer here."  claire's visit to her mother was her last, not only because she was going to give up the baby, but because she knew her mother was going to be gone soon.  christian came to australia to say "goodbye" to the mother, and to appologize to claire.  the aunt was even more livid with him now, and wouldn't let him see claire.  the rest is history.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jules778 on March 18, 2007, 03:13:11 PM
LB i like that theory too!
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: puff6962 on March 18, 2007, 03:38:35 PM
I think Christian was an other charged with the duty of raising a great leader.  He teaches Jack at an early age to pick his fights and later to dissociate himself from the problems of others.  I don't think that Claire was part of the plan.....but, what pushed Christian to again turn to the bottle was the finding that Claire was pregnant.  (He did return upon the death of Claire's mother).  Her pregnancy will not allow her to enter the society of the Others.  He is distraught and decides to end it.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: mindsparkle on March 18, 2007, 07:25:08 PM
I think Christian Sheperd? trashed his career with his alcoholism and estranged his son through his critical judgments of him and feeling sorry for himself decided to go where maybe he would find love... through his other family, Claire... not knowing how to find Claire he goes to the aunt's house and she sends him away... in his drunken stupor and feeling sorry for himself he continued to drink and either died from some alcohol related death or the aunt followed him and put an end to him... whether mom was still alive or not I have no idea... it wouldn't have mattered really... Christian had become pathetic
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: thwgt on March 18, 2007, 07:39:36 PM
i think christian decided to pull the plug on claire's mom.  he was footing the bill for how long?  quite a while.  he decided to cut off the funds, and the plug got pulled.  i don't think he neccisssarily pulled the plug, but i think that because the funds were cut off the doctors recommended it to claire and her aunt.  sort of like, "hey, she's been comatose for 5 years with no progress.  i think it's time to let her go.  plus it's going to cost you $5000 per day you keep her alive because daddy's money is no longer here."  claire's visit to her mother was her last, not only because she was going to give up the baby, but because she knew her mother was going to be gone soon.  christian came to australia to say "goodbye" to the mother, and to appologize to claire.  the aunt was even more livid with him now, and wouldn't let him see claire.  the rest is history.
Only problem with that is Christian wanted to "pull the plug" earlier.  If cutting off the money was all it took, seems he would have done that sooner.

I think Christian Sheperd? trashed his career with his alcoholism and estranged his son through his critical judgments of him and feeling sorry for himself decided to go where maybe he would find love... through his other family, Claire... not knowing how to find Claire he goes to the aunt's house and she sends him away... in his drunken stupor and feeling sorry for himself he continued to drink and either died from some alcohol related death or the aunt followed him and put an end to him... whether mom was still alive or not I have no idea... it wouldn't have mattered really... Christian had become pathetic
I think you're right on the money regarding his motives for the trip and the confrontation with the aunt.  Still up in the air about whether he's actually dead, but definitely leaning that way.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: kelvinlives on March 18, 2007, 08:37:13 PM
I think Jack had become as pathetic or more pathetic than Christian.
Remember Christian was trying to stay sober by going to AA, and Jack ruined that.

I think Christian pulled the plug on Claire's mum either by with holding the funds, like the OP said or by doing it himself. Then he probably did whatever caused him to end up "dead".
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: Nancy Drew on March 18, 2007, 09:24:55 PM
I think Jack was definately on the path to being as pathetic as his dad.  Are we sure that Christian's meeting he went to was an AA meeting?  It just didn't seem like one, not that I have been to AA, but I have been to a couple of family support meetings when I was younger.  They weren't usually held in 5-star hotel banquet rooms.  I have wondered ever since that episode what kind of meeting he went to.  However, I do think that Christian went to see Claire because he was being shut out by Jack.  I think he needed desperately to redeem himself to at least one of his kids.  And when it didn't happen, then he drank himself to death.  Unless Claire's mom died, regardless of having the machines helping her.  Then maybe he came to comfort Claire.  Either way, I don't think he would have pulled the funds from the medical expenses, unless he was forced to.  Actually, that could be another theory....if he wasn't working, where did his money come from??  Maybe he had to stop paying for the expenses.  Don't know, just rambling :)
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: Ladybug on March 19, 2007, 12:47:53 AM
i think christian decided to pull the plug on claire's mom.  he was footing the bill for how long?  quite a while.  he decided to cut off the funds, and the plug got pulled.  i don't think he neccisssarily pulled the plug, but i think that because the funds were cut off the doctors recommended it to claire and her aunt.  sort of like, "hey, she's been comatose for 5 years with no progress.  i think it's time to let her go.  plus it's going to cost you $5000 per day you keep her alive because daddy's money is no longer here."  claire's visit to her mother was her last, not only because she was going to give up the baby, but because she knew her mother was going to be gone soon.  christian came to australia to say "goodbye" to the mother, and to appologize to claire.  the aunt was even more livid with him now, and wouldn't let him see claire.  the rest is history.
Only problem with that is Christian wanted to "pull the plug" earlier.  If cutting off the money was all it took, seems he would have done that sooner.


christian wasn't that unfeeling to just "pull the plug" when she went into a coma.  i think he has been to see claire's mom since she has been in the hospital, other than when we saw him.  christian was at a point where his career was down the drain, he was dependent on alcohol, his son had basically disowned him, and he was probably having major financial problems because of his other problems.  i think he ran out of money to keep her alive and didn't see the point after that long.  his trip to australia with ana lucia was a last visit to claire's mom.  and claire.  ana was with him as a "body guard" because i think he 1.  wanted company (that didn't know his problems) and 2.  was probably a little scared of how claire and her aunt would react to seeing him.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: kelvinlives on March 19, 2007, 08:57:41 AM
I think that Anna Lucia was needed as a body guard because Christian was going to meet some shady people, not because he was afraid of Claire's Aunt.

Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: eelpie62 on March 19, 2007, 08:58:55 AM
Did I miss something?
The last time Christian talks to Claire it's well before (years?) she gets pregnant.
The last time we see Claire's mother is right before Claire gets on flight 815. She's still in a persitant vegatative state at that time.
And so is her mother [rimshot]...but seriously folks...[/rimshot]
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: thwgt on March 19, 2007, 11:39:39 AM
i think christian decided to pull the plug on claire's mom.  he was footing the bill for how long?  quite a while.  he decided to cut off the funds, and the plug got pulled.  i don't think he neccisssarily pulled the plug, but i think that because the funds were cut off the doctors recommended it to claire and her aunt.  sort of like, "hey, she's been comatose for 5 years with no progress.  i think it's time to let her go.  plus it's going to cost you $5000 per day you keep her alive because daddy's money is no longer here."  claire's visit to her mother was her last, not only because she was going to give up the baby, but because she knew her mother was going to be gone soon.  christian came to australia to say "goodbye" to the mother, and to appologize to claire.  the aunt was even more livid with him now, and wouldn't let him see claire.  the rest is history.
Only problem with that is Christian wanted to "pull the plug" earlier.  If cutting off the money was all it took, seems he would have done that sooner.


christian wasn't that unfeeling to just "pull the plug" when she went into a coma.  i think he has been to see claire's mom since she has been in the hospital, other than when we saw him.  christian was at a point where his career was down the drain, he was dependent on alcohol, his son had basically disowned him, and he was probably having major financial problems because of his other problems.  i think he ran out of money to keep her alive and didn't see the point after that long.  his trip to australia with ana lucia was a last visit to claire's mom.  and claire.  ana was with him as a "body guard" because i think he 1.  wanted company (that didn't know his problems) and 2.  was probably a little scared of how claire and her aunt would react to seeing him.
Am I remembering incorrectly?  Didn't he try to convince Claire that her mother shouldn't be kept alive?  Not sure of the timeline, but this was still Goth-Claire and he looked to be pretty coherent so I'm assuming it was not on the same trip with Ana Lucia.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: Austruck on March 19, 2007, 01:29:15 PM
Nobody pulled the plug. If you remember, when Christian is first urging Claire to let her mother go, he distinctly says that in Australian you can't just pull the plug because it's illegal. He does go on to say that he knows of a drug combination that will do the same thing, though.

Which means, if the funds ran out or something, the hospital wouldn't just pull the plug.

Also, yes, Claire's last trip to see her mom is when she's quite pregnant, and since she ends that scene by saying, "See you later," I assume it's because she's going to be leaving Australia on Flight 815 very soon, where she is just about as pregnant as she is in that scene.

 
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: kelvinlives on March 19, 2007, 02:27:12 PM
Well with Christian dead.... Claire's mum will be too.
Unless.... He had an insurance policy with Claire or Claire's mum as a beneficiary.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: CayleysCaptive on March 19, 2007, 04:25:41 PM
Are we sure that Christian's meeting he went to was an AA meeting?  It just didn't seem like one, not that I have been to AA, but I have been to a couple of family support meetings when I was younger.  They weren't usually held in 5-star hotel banquet rooms.  I have wondered ever since that episode what kind of meeting he went to. 

The sign on the door said "Friends of Bill W." which is another way to say Alcoholics Anonymous.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: Optimus J on March 20, 2007, 01:08:58 AM
I think that Anna Lucia was needed as a body guard because Christian was going to meet some shady people, not because he was afraid of Claire's Aunt.


But Anna Lucia wasn't really a bodyguard. just a misery partner, so Christian would have someone to lean on, while taking the courage to make amends with Claire.

And Christian clearly stated that he went to Claire because he wanted to do right with "someone" because he couldn't do it with Jack.

Don't forget that Jack had just invaded his AA meeting and was mad with him.
Christian then calls Sarah Drunk in the middle of the night, in the morning he invites Lulu to Australia, meet Sawyer there, spend three days drinking in his hotel room, argue with Lindsay in the middle of the night, and is found dead from alcohol OD in the morning, when the police call Jack in USA.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: eelpie62 on March 20, 2007, 09:03:58 AM
Well with Christian dead.... Claire's mum will be too.
Unless.... He had an insurance policy with Claire or Claire's mum as a beneficiary.

No, Christian tells Claire "I'm here because it's illegal to turn off her machines, but I know of ways..."
She's still alive when last we see her and will remain that way for the forseeable or until someone else euthanises her.
Hopefully not Sawyer, he'd botch it.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: darinfic on March 20, 2007, 05:52:29 PM
i think christian is stil alive. and the issue with claire pulling the plug seems to me to be a test, perhaps relating to "the list"  claire seemed to make the right choice by keeping her mother alive. he was constantly testing jack as well, but jack didn't really seem to make any right decisions (at least at the time). christian def. seems to be a recruiter for the others. and, keeping in line with them, he always offers a choice. i'm not really sure where i'm going with this thought, but oh well. i just don't think claire ever killed her mother. she just had to leave.

sorry about the nonsensical post. i'm much better in a dialogue than a direct posting.

Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: JBRam on March 20, 2007, 05:55:06 PM
I don't think that Par Avion showed the last time that Christian tried to meet Claire. He came back with Ana-Lucia to see Claire a while later.

Question: Why did Christian need a bodyguard?
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 20, 2007, 09:26:24 PM
Question: Why did Christian need a bodyguard?
I think that he went to Australia, not only to see Claire, but for something DHG related.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jugdish on March 20, 2007, 11:12:51 PM
I don't think that Par Avion showed the last time that Christian tried to meet Claire. He came back with Ana-Lucia to see Claire a while later.

Question: Why did Christian need a bodyguard?

True, when he was with Claire she was not pregnant, at least she was definetly not showing that she was pregnant. So he came back at least months later with Ana and to Aunt Lindsey door.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: thwgt on March 21, 2007, 09:15:49 AM
I don't think that Par Avion showed the last time that Christian tried to meet Claire. He came back with Ana-Lucia to see Claire a while later.

Question: Why did Christian need a bodyguard?

True, when he was with Claire she was not pregnant, at least she was definetly not showing that she was pregnant. So he came back at least months later with Ana and to Aunt Lindsey door.
He was not with blonde Claire at all, was he?  According to the boyfriend flashback (1-10, Raised by Another), Claire had already lost the Goth look before she got pregnant.  I think the meeting in the tattoo parlor was pretty soon after the accident.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: Eballs on March 21, 2007, 11:56:31 AM
This is a little bit off topic but I want to get back to something Puff said earlier.  How Christan was charged by Dharma to raise a great leader.  I love this theory, I don't necessary believe it but I think this is a theory that can be backed up by the relationship between Jack and his father.

We see Christan constantly putting Jack down.  Making Jack fight harder and harder for his fathers love and attention.  Christan also is there to give Jack little peptalks when Jack is scared or nervous (when Jack gets married, when Jack loses a patient etc...).  Most of all he makes Jack think for himself and what is best for everyone.  Even ratting out his own father for being a drunk, this was the final stage of his training.  This proved that Jack is his own man and no ties no matter family, friend, or foe will make Jack sway in what he believes is right (which is extremely important for a leader to have that ability). 

Then when Sawyer sees Christian in the bar, Christian tells Sawyer how proud he was of Jack and how he could never call and tell him.  Is it because he couldn't handle telling his son that or was it that he wasn't allowed too? 

Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jugdish on March 21, 2007, 12:31:13 PM
This is a little bit off topic but I want to get back to something Puff said earlier.  How Christan was charged by Dharma to raise a great leader.  I love this theory, I don't necessary believe it but I think this is a theory that can be backed up by the relationship between Jack and his father.

We see Christan constantly putting Jack down.  Making Jack fight harder and harder for his fathers love and attention.  Christan also is there to give Jack little peptalks when Jack is scared or nervous (when Jack gets married, when Jack loses a patient etc...).  Most of all he makes Jack think for himself and what is best for everyone.  Even ratting out his own father for being a drunk, this was the final stage of his training.  This proved that Jack is his own man and no ties no matter family, friend, or foe will make Jack sway in what he believes is right (which is extremely important for a leader to have that ability). 

Then when Sawyer sees Christian in the bar, Christian tells Sawyer how proud he was of Jack and how he could never call and tell him.  Is it because he couldn't handle telling his son that or was it that he wasn't allowed too? 



Love this! I believe it is all true.
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 12:36:02 PM
I think Jack was definately on the path to being as pathetic as his dad.  Are we sure that Christian's meeting he went to was an AA meeting?  It just didn't seem like one, not that I have been to AA, but I have been to a couple of family support meetings when I was younger.  They weren't usually held in 5-star hotel banquet rooms.  I have wondered ever since that episode what kind of meeting he went to.  However, I do think that Christian went to see Claire because he was being shut out by Jack.  I think he needed desperately to redeem himself to at least one of his kids.  And when it didn't happen, then he drank himself to death.  Unless Claire's mom died, regardless of having the machines helping her.  Then maybe he came to comfort Claire.  Either way, I don't think he would have pulled the funds from the medical expenses, unless he was forced to.  Actually, that could be another theory....if he wasn't working, where did his money come from??  Maybe he had to stop paying for the expenses.  Don't know, just rambling :)
It was an AA meeting because they had the 12 steps in front of everybody to see.
Of course it may have been some secret Dharma meeting "posing" as an AA meeting though... :P
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jugdish on March 21, 2007, 12:37:01 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy

Here was the last list of who believes Christian is alive. Add your name if you want to say I told you so!
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 12:51:00 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl  

Here was the last list of who believes Christian is alive. Add your name if you want to say I told you so!

sigh......you keep forgetting me
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jugdish on March 21, 2007, 12:54:42 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl  

Here was the last list of who believes Christian is alive. Add your name if you want to say I told you so!

sigh......you keep forgetting me
I told people to add themselves. Welcome to the list
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: LostGirlDeb on March 21, 2007, 12:57:08 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl  

Here was the last list of who believes Christian is alive. Add your name if you want to say I told you so!

sigh......you keep forgetting me
I told people to add themselves. Welcome to the list
I know....sigh.....but I should have already been there from months ago.....sigh......  ;)
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: jules778 on March 21, 2007, 03:12:12 PM
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl  

Here was the last list of who believes Christian is alive. Add your name if you want to say I told you so!

sigh......you keep forgetting me
I told people to add themselves. Welcome to the list
I know....sigh.....but I should have already been there from months ago.....sigh......  ;)


Adding to the list
starflier23
Crazy stuff
Juggy
Princess Leia
airdude
snowyjoe
Des8
E-Rich
Lost from the start
GJ
Jackreallylovesjuggy
Lostgirl
Jules778
Title: Re: Christian's last visit to Claire
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 21, 2007, 03:24:22 PM
This is a little bit off topic but I want to get back to something Puff said earlier.  How Christan was charged by Dharma to raise a great leader.  I love this theory, I don't necessary believe it but I think this is a theory that can be backed up by the relationship between Jack and his father.

We see Christan constantly putting Jack down.  Making Jack fight harder and harder for his fathers love and attention.  Christan also is there to give Jack little peptalks when Jack is scared or nervous (when Jack gets married, when Jack loses a patient etc...).  Most of all he makes Jack think for himself and what is best for everyone.  Even ratting out his own father for being a drunk, this was the final stage of his training.  This proved that Jack is his own man and no ties no matter family, friend, or foe will make Jack sway in what he believes is right (which is extremely important for a leader to have that ability). 

Then when Sawyer sees Christian in the bar, Christian tells Sawyer how proud he was of Jack and how he could never call and tell him.  Is it because he couldn't handle telling his son that or was it that he wasn't allowed too? 
Great post. :)  Achara saw these qualities in him, as well.