Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x07 => Topic started by: sledgeweb on February 07, 2007, 11:38:40 PM

Title: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: sledgeweb on February 07, 2007, 11:38:40 PM
I'm sure there will be some discussion on this... that was freaky. Poor Karl is fried. I caught DeGroot at the end, but none of the other images seemed particularly interesting... will take a second look after the show. That must have been the screen cap moment I was anticipating, but at first glance, I don't think there is a whole lot there... we'll see.

Anyone catch anything interesting on the first pass?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LouE68 on February 08, 2007, 12:06:22 AM
That was super trippy, I didn't catch anything...I think I was mesmerized too...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2007, 12:07:59 AM
The comment about Jacob. God loves you like he loves Jacob

SOmewhere there is suppose to be anagram that refers to adam and eve. Don't know where that is.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 12:13:34 AM
wasn't it "God loves you as he loves Jacob"?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2007, 12:19:00 AM
Picky Picky
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ChellyKins on February 08, 2007, 12:19:47 AM
Picky Picky

 :D
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: airdudei on February 08, 2007, 12:22:11 AM
I was kinda like Sawyer during that bit. What a way to kill somebody! Them people are worse than Jigsaw from the Saw movies.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: esque0 on February 08, 2007, 12:24:10 AM
I was kinda like Sawyer during that bit. What a way to kill somebody! Them people are worse than Jigsaw from the Saw movies.
They weren't trying to kill him; they were trying to brainwash him.  Killing him would be counterproductive.  They wouldn't have a hold on Alex.  Might as well experiment on him.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2007, 12:24:59 AM
Trying to kill or train him to be part of their cult. I thought it was brainwashing activity.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: airdudei on February 08, 2007, 12:28:29 AM
Damn he looked almost dead to me.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 12:32:36 AM
Picky Picky
Well when you're dealing with anagrams ;D Anyways, you can't get "Adam" with like.

Trying to kill or train him to be part of their cult. I thought it was brainwashing activity.
Most definately. However, Juliet did say that Ben would kill him if she left.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Point Place WI on February 08, 2007, 12:34:01 AM
See I was wondering were I could get a pair of those trippy glasses.... You know you all wanted a pair.  
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: dot136 on February 08, 2007, 12:39:40 AM
wasn't it "God loves you as he loves Jacob"?

It was "God loves you as He loved Jacob"
I just paused it on my recorder
I wonder if the past tense means anything.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 12:41:48 AM
Thanks, Dot.

Jacob was a Biblical character that God "loved" and actually renamed as "Israel." He became the father of the nation of Israel that is in existence today.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LouE68 on February 08, 2007, 12:43:05 AM
See I was wondering were I could get a pair of those trippy glasses.... You know you all wanted a pair.  
I actually have a pair!
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: dot136 on February 08, 2007, 12:43:32 AM
I was watching the sequence frame by frame, and you can see the image of Alvar Hanso. The one from the Lost Experience where he's standing at the window. It's not far after the "Jacob" message.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LouE68 on February 08, 2007, 12:44:31 AM
wasn't it "God loves you as he loves Jacob"?

It was "God loves you as He loved Jacob"
I just paused it on my recorder
I wonder if the past tense means anything.
I think the past tense thing is just biblical talk....
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: dcnole on February 08, 2007, 12:46:01 AM
The past tense is interesting. Jacob is the guy who made the "list" talked about in the fall.  He appears to be the guy 1 step up on the food chain from Ben, but we don't really know for sure. I assume there is an intentional connection in using his name.  But the past tense makes you wonder what they're getting at.  Maybe Jacob is dead and Ben is trying to carry out his post-mortem wishes.  Like a cult figure who died and his followers are left trying to follow his lists, etc.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: dot136 on February 08, 2007, 12:48:43 AM
Also, after they take the glasses off of Karl and just before Alex grabs his face, you can see a man with a beard reflected on Karl's chair. I wonder if he's anybody.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 08, 2007, 12:54:48 AM
I was watching the sequence frame by frame, and you can see the image of Alvar Hanso. The one from the Lost Experience where he's standing at the window. It's not far after the "Jacob" message.
i too saw the hanso photo.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
The past tense is interesting. Jacob is the guy who made the "list" talked about in the fall.  He appears to be the guy 1 step up on the food chain from Ben, but we don't really know for sure. I assume there is an intentional connection in using his name.  But the past tense makes you wonder what they're getting at.  Maybe Jacob is dead and Ben is trying to carry out his post-mortem wishes.  Like a cult figure who died and his followers are left trying to follow his lists, etc.
Either this, or they were referring to Biblical Jacob, or they were referring to something Jacob had done and God still loved him after he did it.

Sounds Cultish to me...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2007, 12:57:52 AM
They are saying that Jacob is a holy figure and you want to follow him so god will love you.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 12:59:46 AM
I'd like to see the entire segment (shots of the screen anyways) slowly or frame by frame...

There has to be some interesting stuff there.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 08, 2007, 01:00:30 AM
i know who jacob the Biblical character is, but i think the jacob they are refrencing is someone on the island or associated with the others.  i think jacob=him.  maybe.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: dcnole on February 08, 2007, 01:02:10 AM
I'd like to see the entire segment (shots of the screen anyways) slowly or frame by frame...

There has to be some interesting stuff there.
I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

Second: "Everything Changes"

Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 08, 2007, 01:03:08 AM
I'd like to see the entire segment (shots of the screen anyways) slowly or frame by frame...

There has to be some interesting stuff there.
I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

Second: "Everything Changes"

Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"
that guy was degroot
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 01:04:24 AM
Have you seen the TLE Fragments put together? There are a lot of links to it scattered around here... Did he look like the announcer for this video? That person was Hanso back in the 80s or something.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: mindsparkle on February 08, 2007, 02:31:31 AM
The whole thing with Carl is very "A Clockwork Orange!!" 

Interestingly it's about a teenager named Alex that is very violent and eventually gets caught... and is offered a chance to redeem himself, he submits to an experimental therapy.  He's drugged and exposed to pictures of extreme violence and unable to look away, his eyes are held open with clamps...  anyway, it's an interesting book... kinda creepy though...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Sunflower on February 08, 2007, 03:45:02 AM
Mindsparkle, you are just so smart and amaze me with every post :)  It was very disturbing, I guess Carl couldn't think about escaping could he.  You all may know this already, but why is he being punished/held captive?  Is it because of Alex?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ofiedafne on February 08, 2007, 03:50:40 AM
Kinda silly thought could he mean that carl and alex should have children? So they may populate the island.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Sunflower on February 08, 2007, 03:54:22 AM
Why would he seperate them then?  I don't think so personally.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Maxor127 on February 08, 2007, 06:07:06 AM
I think the screen cap moment was probably the Jacob thing.  The producers said in their podcast that Jacob is an important name and to look for it in coming episodes and they seemed to hint that he's the head of everything.  It's purposely meant to have a dual meaning both biblical and relating to this mysterious "leader."
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 08, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Hi I found this on the BR while waiting for the site to come up and thought you guys might find this interesting too
http://www.theblackrock.org/df/ForumsPro/viewforum/f=81.html

and if you are not able to get to the link here is a direct quote from Astro on BR
~~~~quote~~~~~
Okay, lostintranslation actually found this site, but I wanted to go ahead and post it.

online.sfsu.edu/~rone/...tsteps.htm

Scroll down to the Basic Teachings of Buddha then to number 3 The Law of Cause and Effect.
It gives a quote from buddhism:
"The kind of seed sown
will produce that kind of fruit.
Those who do good will reap good results.
Those who do evil will reap evil results.
If you carefully plant a good seed,
You will joyfully gather good fruit."
Dhammapada

All of these things were a part of the video Carl was being forced to watch. In addition, the brainwashing video also said "God loves us like he loved Jacob"

I think its interesting that the video seemed to show teachings from both Buddhism and the Bible. A cross of Eastern and Western philosophies. Sorta like Aldous Huxley's Island. Click here for Wikipedia
~~~end of quote~~~

I went to the site mentioned and need to go back
I think there may be more clues
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: apriori on February 08, 2007, 12:07:32 PM
I'd like to see the entire segment (shots of the screen anyways) slowly or frame by frame...

There has to be some interesting stuff there.
I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

Second: "Everything Changes"

Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"

I suppose I'll stop lurking and toss in my two cents.
The third statement, "We are the causes of our own suffering" is extremely Buddhist, especially because of the use of the word "suffering". (The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism go something like 1. Living is Suffering 2. Our desires cause our suffering 3. Cessation of desiring will cause the cessation of suffering 4. The way to stop desiring is to follow the eightfold path)

The "God loves you as He loved Jacob" line is certainly Jewish or Christian, but I can't figure anything out about the other lines. Is there a chance that these are all related to different religions?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: mindsparkle on February 08, 2007, 01:51:39 PM
Everything changes and everything in the universe is on time... is a common phrase by new-agers, those interested in considering alternative religions/spirituality... and especially buddism... very much a part of eastern thought and practice...


God loves you as he loved Jacob -- obviously Jacob is someone to be revered and to be like Jacob woud be the closest you can get to obtaining God's love?  Were there limitations to God's love for Jacob or was Jacob loved unconditionally?  All we can know is that Jacob is very important... stating the obvious, I know... I'm processing...LOL
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Sunflower on February 08, 2007, 01:59:50 PM
Jacob was very special to God and named his nation after him.  There is also the famous story of Jacob wrestling with God and the ladder going up to heaven (Jacob's Ladder).  Jacob on the island as the leader could draw some parrells.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: nothingbutsky on February 08, 2007, 02:02:14 PM
Does anyone know what the music was?
What was the significance, if any? Maybe just to keep him awake?
Wouldn't verbal messages have more of a brainwashing effect?

Could it have been Driveshaft???
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: lyrasdaemon on February 08, 2007, 02:09:47 PM
Has anyone tried anagrams with "god loves you..."  Some interesting words right off the bat:  solve, absolve, bold, cave, dove...    ???
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: uofapiglet on February 08, 2007, 02:24:08 PM
Like mindsparkle mentioned earlier, the whole scene is very Stanley Kubrick's "A ClockworK Orange"... It's actually a form of extreme psychological behavioral treatment called 'aversion therapy' but basically it's just some sort of visual (flashing images) and other sensory exposure (e.g. the loud techno music) that a subject is exposed to in order for them to change their behavior. In the Kubrick movie it was used as a method to deter the main character 'Alex' from violence and rape. It's often mistaken for brainwashing because of it's short term effects and the fact that it is very graphic - they keep your eyes open even if you are tired just to get the images embedded in your waking thoughts and preferably your subconsciouness. Aversion therapy is actually still around today but not so grandiose, for example, there's this foul tasting stuff that you can put on your nails to stop biting them, or some AA groups have different methods of making the taste of alcohol seem so gross that prevent alcoholics from drinking. 

I don't know if the Others consider it punishment, but it was definitely a way for them to control Karl and get him to act appropriately in their society. So maybe the question we should all be really asking, besides what are those images or what is the significance of those sayings is,  WHAT DID KARL DO TO GET THE AVERSION THERAPY?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: tonysee200x on February 08, 2007, 02:30:48 PM
It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: apriori on February 08, 2007, 02:46:38 PM
Like mindsparkle mentioned earlier, the whole scene is very Stanley Kubrick's "A ClockworK Orange"... It's actually a form of extreme psychological behavioral treatment called 'aversion therapy' but basically it's just some sort of visual (flashing images) and other sensory exposure (e.g. the loud techno music) that a subject is exposed to in order for them to change their behavior. In the Kubrick movie it was used as a method to deter the main character 'Alex' from violence and rape. It's often mistaken for brainwashing because of it's short term effects and the fact that it is very graphic - they keep your eyes open even if you are tired just to get the images embedded in your waking thoughts and preferably your subconsciouness. Aversion therapy is actually still around today but not so grandiose, for example, there's this foul tasting stuff that you can put on your nails to stop biting them, or some AA groups have different methods of making the taste of alcohol seem so gross that prevent alcoholics from drinking. 

I don't know if the Others consider it punishment, but it was definitely a way for them to control Karl and get him to act appropriately in their society. So maybe the question we should all be really asking, besides what are those images or what is the significance of those sayings is,  WHAT DID KARL DO TO GET THE AVERSION THERAPY?

Actually it was a book ten years before it was a movie.
I looked up "godlovesyouashelovedaaron" in a few anagram finders online but it's way too long to be ran through any of them and even if it did you'd have tons of messages. And, as I think somebody brought up before, you can't get "Adam" out of that.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: sledgeweb on February 08, 2007, 02:48:28 PM
It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.


One of the first thoughts I had, was whether this room could be similar to the room Walt was threatened with back in Season 2.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: uofapiglet on February 08, 2007, 02:55:15 PM
I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

1) First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

2) Second: "Everything Changes"

3) Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

4) Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

5) Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"

Thanks for posting the quotes from the flashing images dcnole... :)

1) I think Lostgirl (aka Debs) pretty much explained this one with regards to the Buddhist philosophies. There's referrences made to Dharma and I even think that the photomosaics in between the "everything changes part" and before that dolls looked like the Dharma BAGUA symbol/logo. I'll even add that the quote also has some allusion to the "Adam and Eve" bible story because their demise was caused by a fruit (apple) from a tree that they were warned was not 'good'.

2) Talk about an understatement... after this episode lots of things are about to change. The guard, Aldo, was even reading Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" outside of the prison chamber which has some referrences to cosmology, math, and evolution - in a way, the progress of change with regards to man's existence on earth.

3) I loved this line because it deals with so many themes from the show: suffering, redemtion, purgatory (sorry I killed a kitten Pandy), evolution, the framework of time, etc. First we are shown images of old/ancient Roman coins to one 1921 Epluribus Unum coin to cds to a compass and so on... it gave me the sense of circular theory, life as a cycle, alpha et omega, sun/moon - day/night, time in clockwork motion, one gigantic circle, whatever... I have yet to develop this theory so pardon if it sound really stupid and a gross over-analysis... :) --- Second, if "WE" are the causes of our own suffering, does that mean hell as other people? It reminded me Sartre's play "No Exit" where hell is how we deal with our realtionships to others and the whole survival with others or alone ordeal... live together, die alone right? --- Lastly, it's interesting that the word suffering would be associated with loads of dead fish and a cockroach.

4) One word, JACOB... I'm not going to go into this in detail, maybe another thread... religious referrences always stem some form of theoretical argument about who is Jacob and who his HIM and is Jacob = HIM... I have no freakin idea man... :P

5) "Think about - your life"? Again, what did Karl do that was so bad as to deserve all this aversion therapy and why is his life important? I mean, if he did something extraordinarily 'bad', why didn't they just kill him and get it over with instead of Alex making some desperate attempt to rescue him only to let him go and have Sawyer and Kate take him back to their island?

The end... Sorry it's long again, can't help it... :D
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: uofapiglet on February 08, 2007, 02:58:09 PM
It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.


One of the first thoughts I had, was whether this room could be similar to the room Walt was threatened with back in Season 2.

Hi sledge! :D

I wondered about that whole facility too... There are lots of queries about why people are considered "pecial" and if by chance this happened to be the same place they kept Walt and the other flight survivors that were taken from the tail section.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: uofapiglet on February 08, 2007, 03:01:34 PM
Like mindsparkle mentioned earlier, the whole scene is very Stanley Kubrick's "A ClockworK Orange"... It's actually a form of extreme psychological behavioral treatment called 'aversion therapy' but basically it's just some sort of visual (flashing images) and other sensory exposure (e.g. the loud techno music) that a subject is exposed to in order for them to change their behavior. In the Kubrick movie it was used as a method to deter the main character 'Alex' from violence and rape. It's often mistaken for brainwashing because of it's short term effects and the fact that it is very graphic - they keep your eyes open even if you are tired just to get the images embedded in your waking thoughts and preferably your subconsciouness. Aversion therapy is actually still around today but not so grandiose, for example, there's this foul tasting stuff that you can put on your nails to stop biting them, or some AA groups have different methods of making the taste of alcohol seem so gross that prevent alcoholics from drinking. 

I don't know if the Others consider it punishment, but it was definitely a way for them to control Karl and get him to act appropriately in their society. So maybe the question we should all be really asking, besides what are those images or what is the significance of those sayings is,  WHAT DID KARL DO TO GET THE AVERSION THERAPY?

Actually it was a book ten years before it was a movie.
I looked up "godlovesyouashelovedaaron" in a few anagram finders online but it's way too long to be ran through any of them and even if it did you'd have tons of messages. And, as I think somebody brought up before, you can't get "Adam" out of that.

Welcome to the boards, apriori, glad you put your two cents in...

Yup, it was a book by Anthony Burgess, I think, before Kubrick made the movie...

And I don't know why people are trying to get an anagram out of that, I think the significance of the quote is just to bring up Jacob... I saw that someone posted mad information about the story of Jacob and Esau (the biblical twins) on the investigations page... Cuz I don't get 'Adam' either... I thought that the main anagram was for "Mittelos" which rearranged was "lost time"...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Creflo on February 08, 2007, 03:10:29 PM
I posted this last night and it seems to have vanished...sorry if you've read it already.

(Biblical) Jacob was a bad twin.  He fathered Benjamin.

In "A Clockwork Orange", what Alex was exposed to is called The Ludovico Technique.

(http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/images/clockwork_big.jpg)

The music being played in Alex's case became important later because it associated the nausea with his favorite composer
("Ludwig Von").  Karl probably likes techno.

I think Karl's crime was probably being in love with the boss' daughter.  For this, he may have made some poor choices such as being out after curfew, entering restricted areas, or using DHARMA's name in vain.


Oh, and did anyone notice one image of a face that was only visible as the camera faced AWAY from the screen?  It was reflected against Karl or something.  I'll pull it up later when possible.

Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 08, 2007, 06:11:47 PM
I'd like to see the entire segment (shots of the screen anyways) slowly or frame by frame...

There has to be some interesting stuff there.
I went through it in slow mo. None of the images jumped out at me except that as they're carrying Carl out, just as the room goes out of view, suddenly the film cuts to a bearded man in what looks like a science lab.  He's sitting at a lab bench looking down at some sort of piece of equipment. I didn't recognize him. It's possible it's Hanso, or someone else we've seen. Hopefully we can get a screen cap.  Beyond that, the images seemed generic (though it's possible they have some sort of combined meaning).  There were 5 total written statements. 

First: "Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

Second: "Everything Changes"

Third: "We are the causes of our own suffering"

Fourth: "God loves you as He loved Jacob"

Fifth: "Think About [slide changes] Your Life"

I suppose I'll stop lurking and toss in my two cents.
The third statement, "We are the causes of our own suffering" is extremely Buddhist, especially because of the use of the word "suffering". (The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism go something like 1. Living is Suffering 2. Our desires cause our suffering 3. Cessation of desiring will cause the cessation of suffering 4. The way to stop desiring is to follow the eightfold path)

The "God loves you as He loved Jacob" line is certainly Jewish or Christian, but I can't figure anything out about the other lines. Is there a chance that these are all related to different religions?
The first quote is a Christian idea. In the new testament, Jesus talks about the good tree bearing good fruit (and a bad tree bearing bad fruit).
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Creflo on February 08, 2007, 09:49:44 PM
The face I was referring to is surely DeGroot.

A 3 second clip is on its way.

I'll rework it.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 08, 2007, 11:04:10 PM
your link took me to some terrible loop that was very hard to get out of.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 09, 2007, 11:45:21 AM
It seems like there was a bunch of these rooms going down the hallway. I wonder if this is where the Tailies kids are being kept?

Maybe Walt did not get this treatment because he was “special”.


One of the first thoughts I had, was whether this room could be similar to the room Walt was threatened with back in Season 2.
i wondered the same thing.  maybe walt was kept in it BECAUSE he was special.  they wanted to wipe his memories (brain wash him) so that he would think what THEY wanted him to think, therefore couldn't/wouldn't harm them with his thoughts.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: firemanandlostfan on February 09, 2007, 12:52:04 PM
It is pretty obvious to me that Carl is the typical "bad boy" that Ben does not want his daughter to be associated with.  First in the Season opener they have him in the cage by Sawyer and then after the failed escape attempt it was the "Happy room" for reprograming.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: uofapiglet on February 09, 2007, 01:05:41 PM
It is pretty obvious to me that Carl is the typical "bad boy" that Ben does not want his daughter to be associated with.  First in the Season opener they have him in the cage by Sawyer and then after the failed escape attempt it was the "Happy room" for reprograming.

I totally agree, but I wonder what he did that would make them put him in the "happy room". I mean if he's so integral to their community why did they let him escape with Kate&Sawyer, if they threatened Alex they would kill him if she didn't stay on Alcatraz... And in that case why didn't they just kill him from the start, if Ben is so against Karl and Alex being together? Someone brought up the theory that Karl might be a sleeper or spy... but I'm not exactly sure that's the case... However, I definitely think there is an important reason as to why Karl is still alive and why he was put in the room to be brainwahsed to begin with... those images and sayings had an ultimate behavioral purpose, I'm sure...

Has anyone considered that maybe they exposed him to some subliminal messages during the Ludovico sequence, what do you think?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 09, 2007, 01:08:58 PM
i don't think karl is a "bad" boy.  i think he and alex want to be together.  ben (and juliet) are just trying to keep them apart, and are going to do what it takes to do that. 
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2007, 01:15:37 PM
Juliette does not like everything that is going on with the losties. She knows what they are doing to Carl and does not like it. She knows Ben can forgive her for letting Carl go, he is not that important, but Ben would not forget letting Alex go. SO Juliette made the decision on Carl but will not cross the line with ALex
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 09, 2007, 02:45:52 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting that this is a Romeo and Juliet situation? (Karl and Alex)
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2007, 03:15:39 PM
no
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 09, 2007, 03:27:38 PM
no
oh.

I do.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2007, 03:29:26 PM
I don't, they are teenagers with a disapproving dad. Very conmmon
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 09, 2007, 03:40:18 PM
I don't, they are teenagers with a disapproving dad. Very conmmon
i agree jug.  it's just to common.  i just wonder if there is an UNCOMMON reason as to why he dissapproves.  ie.  he doesn't want them to reproduce, alex won't be his "little girl" anymore, maybe karl knows something he doesn't want alex to know or vice versa, etc.  who knows.  but i think there is a bigger REASON as to why they need to be apart, i don't find it interesting that they are the only 2 teens (or at least that we have seen) and they want to be together.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: miketrapasso on February 09, 2007, 04:56:46 PM
This seems unlikely, and unfourtunatly I cannot check it myself because I apparently have trouble setting a DVR.  But several people have mentioned that you can see a picture of a man reflected on Karl as Sawyer is helping him out of the chair.  When this came on the screen, both my father and I said: "Was that Osama bin Laden?"  Sounds crazy, I know, but it really looked like him from what I can remember.  Am I alone on this one?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Kosmetas on February 09, 2007, 05:02:23 PM
They have the same genetic code..... that is why they must be kept apart!  You know brother and sister.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Ladybug on February 09, 2007, 05:23:45 PM
This seems unlikely, and unfourtunatly I cannot check it myself because I apparently have trouble setting a DVR.  But several people have mentioned that you can see a picture of a man reflected on Karl as Sawyer is helping him out of the chair.  When this came on the screen, both my father and I said: "Was that Osama bin Laden?"  Sounds crazy, I know, but it really looked like him from what I can remember.  Am I alone on this one?
it was degroot.
http://lost.cubit.net/indexView.php?id=86 (http://lost.cubit.net/indexView.php?id=86)
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 09, 2007, 05:49:53 PM
They have the same genetic code..... that is why they must be kept apart!  You know brother and sister.
I doubt it, but it is a possiblity. We have no idea where Carl came from and he seems to be the same age as Alex. Maybe Danielle had two children (twins) or maybe Carl was the son of someone else on the scientists' crew. I don't know if I agree, but I see how it could be done.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: miketrapasso on February 09, 2007, 05:50:53 PM
I don't mean the shot as they are walking out.  I mean the image that reflects onto Karl's face as he is sitting in the chair.  And if that is what you mean, than thank you for your help.

Oh yes. That is DeGroot. Thanks for banishing that ridiculous idea from my head!
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Creflo on February 09, 2007, 10:45:37 PM
OK.  I think I finally have the clip of the reflected image worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/v/LEzTFA8po5I

It's DeGroots without the goggles he wears in the later clip.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: wlykyoti on February 09, 2007, 11:33:00 PM
Hello this is my first post so forgive me if I missed this someplace but I found this on YouTube and found it interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwWhM8Xb_oQ

Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 09, 2007, 11:48:31 PM
Hello this is my first post so forgive me if I missed this someplace but I found this on YouTube and found it interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwWhM8Xb_oQ


"Only fools are enslaved by time and space"

Yikes. THANKS for that, Wlykyoti. That was... very useful and freaky.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Wojodojo on February 10, 2007, 08:49:44 AM
When the screen said everything changes, I thought of Jin telling Hurley in EVERYONE HATES HUGO "Everything is going to change". Could these be connected?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 10:48:05 AM
When the screen said everything changes, I thought of Jin telling Hurley in EVERYONE HATES HUGO "Everything is going to change". Could these be connected?
Possibliy. Good thinking... However, it WAS Hurley's dream... Dreams are difficult to interpret, especially on the island. What exactly was the meaning of "Everything changes"?

Change has been a very major theme of the show
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Pandora on February 10, 2007, 10:59:58 AM
Hello this is my first post so forgive me if I missed this someplace but I found this on YouTube and found it interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwWhM8Xb_oQ


Thanks! I was just coming on to post about this, but you beat me to it... saw it myself this morning, too.  It's very creepy.  This is a comment about it on lostpedia:

The voice of a woman repeating "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" can be heard in the reversed version of the brainwashing video. This hidden clue may be another Buddhist reference: "The wise know how to use time and space perfectly; they lead free and harmonious lives. Fools are enslaved by time and space; they are busy running around all day. Wise or foolish, the difference is obvious."
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 11:24:34 AM
So it's definately a Buddhist thing...

We have quite a mix of religions in this show, don't we?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: mindsparkle on February 10, 2007, 05:08:23 PM
It was also a recording that DarkUFO made and I have a lot of respect for him and his site... he isn't easily fooled and seems to do a through research of stuff he gets...

so that was the sound to the brainwashing video... sounded more like the plane crash... but it's backwards, what do I know...

Very interesting piece... with all the Buddhist references and eastern thought and manner, I wonder if the more biblical associations are just there to throw us off the trail...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 09:24:23 PM
 First time post....don't really know you to copy and paste previous comments yet, but I wanted to give my 2 cents on why Alex and Carl can't be together.  I don't think it is a disapproving father thing.  I don't think any of the Others are allowed to sexually reproduce..whether it be because of genetic similarities or because of the fertility experiment.  Why waste time with pregnancy the old fashioned way?  Colleen and Danny were a couple, but the kiss seemed more platonic, no?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ChellyKins on February 10, 2007, 09:26:18 PM
Great to have ya Cowboy! And yes, the kiss was a bit shallow pecking. Good thoughts.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: snowyjoe on February 10, 2007, 09:31:04 PM
the thing about degroot...is that now the lost TV show is introducing Hanso-Degroot... where as before... they were never mentioned...only DHARMA.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 09:38:03 PM
Thanks Chellykins.

Now I'm also wondering if Kate and Sawyer were allowed to "do it" because Kate will be the control in the experiment.  Don't know why they need one, but just a thought...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ChellyKins on February 10, 2007, 09:40:44 PM
Yea Cowboy...if you look around (which sucks cuz everyone is so freakin smart here that there are millions of theories and threads) you'll see they talk about the Kate/Sawyer pregnancy and stuff.

*sigh* This show will be the death of me...lol
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: snowyjoe on February 10, 2007, 09:41:24 PM
i reackon... when it ends i think my family might find me dead...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 09:42:06 PM
Hi cowboypants and Welcome
I also think that Kate and Sawyer were "set up" to mate.  Still not sure why
Maybe Kate will turn up preggers soon?  
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 10:01:22 PM
Lostgirl,

Maybe.  I also like the whole theory that Kate might be infertile.  But, I can't make it all fit together.

My head hurts...
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 10:04:01 PM
Kate Infertile?  I didn't think of that at all LOL
She has mentioned to Sun that she has taken a pregnancy test before so unless something happend after that......
But I do beleive that Sawyer and Kate were put there in the cages across from each other (kate in a dress etc.) so they could "get it on"  Just not sure what for yet
Yes my head hurts too LOL
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: daisyrain on February 10, 2007, 10:07:00 PM
I do think Kate will end up pregnant. Maybe you can get pregnant before the island starts to affect your uterus?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 10:08:43 PM
I thought since it seemed like her test was negative, and because several people have posted theories that she might be the woman in the xray with the 70 year old uterus, that maybe she was infertile.  Maybe I'm over-thinking...Dunno.  
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 10:10:15 PM
Or maybe its the "others" that are infertile because of some experiment that had happend in the past with Dharma.
Didn't Juliette elude or say something to Jack, that they were part of Dharma but that was a lon time ago
so yeah i think whatever went on back then has something to do with the infertility issues if there are indeed infertility issues with the others  
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ChellyKins on February 10, 2007, 10:13:55 PM
I thought since it seemed like her test was negative, and because several people have posted theories that she might be the woman in the xray with the 70 year old uterus, that maybe she was infertile.  Maybe I'm over-thinking...Dunno.  


;D I said it was Kate too ;D

I don't have a flippin clue..this show loves to torture our minds. lol
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 10:18:11 PM
First time post....don't really know you to copy and paste previous comments yet, but I wanted to give my 2 cents on why Alex and Carl can't be together.  I don't think it is a disapproving father thing.  I don't think any of the Others are allowed to sexually reproduce..whether it be because of genetic similarities or because of the fertility experiment.  Why waste time with pregnancy the old fashioned way?  Colleen and Danny were a couple, but the kiss seemed more platonic, no?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.
To quote a person's post, just click the "Quote" button on the upper-right corner of the post.

Good point in that... I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole fertility issue...

I thought since it seemed like her test was negative, and because several people have posted theories that she might be the woman in the xray with the 70 year old uterus, that maybe she was infertile.  Maybe I'm over-thinking...Dunno. 
I don't think that there's a possiblity of any of our LOSTies being the person in the MRIs. That's all speculation, but I really don't see how it's gonna work out.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 10:18:52 PM
I agree that the at least some of the Others are infertile, too.  
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 10:21:15 PM
Sorry guys I'm not buying that Kate is the one with the 70 yr old uterus  ;D
As far as I'm concerned the 70yr old uterus doesn't have to belong to anyone that we know.  It was just something that they showed her to get her attention
I could be wrong... :D
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 10:21:23 PM
First time post....don't really know you to copy and paste previous comments yet, but I wanted to give my 2 cents on why Alex and Carl can't be together.  I don't think it is a disapproving father thing.  I don't think any of the Others are allowed to sexually reproduce..whether it be because of genetic similarities or because of the fertility experiment.  Why waste time with pregnancy the old fashioned way?  Colleen and Danny were a couple, but the kiss seemed more platonic, no?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.
To quote a person's post, just click the "Quote" button on the upper-right corner of the post.

Good point in that... I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole fertility issue...

I thought since it seemed like her test was negative, and because several people have posted theories that she might be the woman in the xray with the 70 year old uterus, that maybe she was infertile.  Maybe I'm over-thinking...Dunno. 
I don't think that there's a possiblity of any of our LOSTies being the person in the MRIs. That's all speculation, but I really don't see how it's gonna work out.

Thanks for the quote help!  Eventually, I think (hope) I would have figured that one out :)
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ChellyKins on February 10, 2007, 10:25:13 PM
Sorry guys I'm not buying that Kate is the one with the 70 yr old uterus  ;D
As far as I'm concerned the 70yr old uterus doesn't have to belong to anyone that we know.  It was just something that they showed her to get her attention
I could be wrong... :D

U can't disagree with me!  >:(

Hehehe  ;D
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: ChellyKins on February 10, 2007, 10:26:27 PM
First time post....don't really know you to copy and paste previous comments yet, but I wanted to give my 2 cents on why Alex and Carl can't be together.  I don't think it is a disapproving father thing.  I don't think any of the Others are allowed to sexually reproduce..whether it be because of genetic similarities or because of the fertility experiment.  Why waste time with pregnancy the old fashioned way?  Colleen and Danny were a couple, but the kiss seemed more platonic, no?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.
To quote a person's post, just click the "Quote" button on the upper-right corner of the post.

Good point in that... I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole fertility issue...

I thought since it seemed like her test was negative, and because several people have posted theories that she might be the woman in the xray with the 70 year old uterus, that maybe she was infertile.  Maybe I'm over-thinking...Dunno. 
I don't think that there's a possiblity of any of our LOSTies being the person in the MRIs. That's all speculation, but I really don't see how it's gonna work out.

Thanks for the quote help!  Eventually, I think (hope) I would have figured that one out :)


Join us in community lounge (an area way down at the bottom of the swls page lol)....lots of folks there that will give you tips and pointers. And give an introduction for yourself too.
 :)
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 10:29:32 PM
Sorry guys I'm not buying that Kate is the one with the 70 yr old uterus  ;D
As far as I'm concerned the 70yr old uterus doesn't have to belong to anyone that we know.  It was just something that they showed her to get her attention
I could be wrong... :D
I agree with you Debs, but I have a feeling that it is someone in the Other's camp. Maybe Colleen or someone we haven't met yet. Or, it's possible that we haven't met this person and we never will: maybe she died.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: COWBOYPANTS on February 10, 2007, 10:35:47 PM
I will look for the Lounge, ChellyKins...I get "LOST" on this site a lot, though.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 10:37:17 PM
We'll be waiting for you. If you need help on getting there, just let me know.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: LostGirlDeb on February 10, 2007, 10:38:49 PM
I will look for the Lounge, ChellyKins...I get "LOST" on this site a lot, though.

Hey we all do! I STILL do!!
The loung is a bit easier and its all fun, not much Lost talk :D
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: JBRam on February 10, 2007, 10:43:22 PM
I will look for the Lounge, ChellyKins...I get "LOST" on this site a lot, though.

Hey we all do! I STILL do!!
The loung is a bit easier and its all fun, not much Lost talk :D
If you want Lost Talk, go to the Lost Talk Board! lol
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: marie108 on February 12, 2007, 12:53:04 PM
There are a lot of Buddhism type quotes during the video: 'Everything Changes' suggests the Buddhist view of Impermanence, Ultimate Truth, as does the planting seeds stuff. Its all Karma - plant a good seed, and get good fruit - do good & get good, what goes around, comes around, etc. And of course the Buddhist Statue.
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Wishbone on February 12, 2007, 04:12:29 PM
When you are trying to get a subliminal message across it is often added in backwards - does anyone remember the fuss in the early nineties about subliminal backwards messages being added to heavy metal records (or am I just old). Anyway, it is a way of getting something into people subconciously (sp). Very interesting though.

I don't see how the x-ray of the 70 year old uterus could be Kate since it was shown to Juliette 3 years earlier.

Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: uofapiglet on February 12, 2007, 05:01:09 PM
Hello this is my first post so forgive me if I missed this someplace but I found this on YouTube and found it interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwWhM8Xb_oQ


Thanks! I was just coming on to post about this, but you beat me to it... saw it myself this morning, too.  It's very creepy.  This is a comment about it on lostpedia:

The voice of a woman repeating "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" can be heard in the reversed version of the brainwashing video. This hidden clue may be another Buddhist reference: "The wise know how to use time and space perfectly; they lead free and harmonious lives. Fools are enslaved by time and space; they are busy running around all day. Wise or foolish, the difference is obvious."

Thanks for posting all that stuff on Buddhism and subliminal messaging guys... I had a feeling there was something else beneath the crazy images and blasting techno music... It just made the whole brainwashing sequence even more interesting...

"Only fools are enslaved by time and space" - It really puts a lot of things in perspective huh?
Title: Re: The Brainwashing Fun Time Room
Post by: Nancy Drew on April 06, 2007, 07:42:54 PM
I didn't read through all the posts on this thread to see if it was brought up, but didn't this scene remind you of the chamber that the amusement park guy get locked in in the newer version of the movie "House on Haunted Hill"?  It was the same type of mechanism, for brainwashing, only it was more antique than this method.  But the guy had to wear goggles, was strapped down, the whole works.  I don't remember if any audio was playing, but the room literally started spinning and then these images started to show up.  It eventually made him lose consciousness. 

I just thought it was worth sharing.  It was one of those things where if I didn't post it, it would have drove me crazy!!