Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x04 => Topic started by: Gordon Shumway on October 25, 2006, 11:04:55 PM

Title: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Gordon Shumway on October 25, 2006, 11:04:55 PM
Its how they get between the islands undetected.  Makes sense now.  The situation was Colleen getting shot.  Sorry if I'm master of the obvious.
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: BlackrockBob on October 25, 2006, 11:06:13 PM
I don't understand how Des didn't see the other island... Unless it was hidden due to the EM field.

So Ben has a sub. I guess that Ethan and Goodwin were dropped off and had to run to get to the Losties.
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: Point Place WI on October 25, 2006, 11:10:47 PM
I don't understand how Des didn't see the other island... Unless it was hidden due to the EM field.

So Ben has a sub. I guess that Ethan and Goodwin were dropped off and had to run to get to the Losties.

Good Point and also Danielle or Micheal Walt Sawyer and Jin....they should have been able to see it on a blue bird day when they set sail.
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: JBRam on October 25, 2006, 11:30:06 PM
I think that the original OTHERs' camp was on the Island, not Alcatraz.

Probably Des did see the second island, but didn't really care. He just wanted to get away.

M-W-S probably were on the opposite side of the island from Alcatraz, therefore wouldn't be able to see it. ESPECIALLY if Alcatraz is "under the camera" in the wide shot of the island that we got in 3x01. The Losties would be on a completely opposite side of the island than Alcatraz.

Of course, someone might come up with a theory that Alcatraz is a mobile island... I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on October 25, 2006, 11:41:34 PM
Niether one of the islands is called Alcatraz he just says the island they are on is twice the size of alcatraz.    I dont think that is the island that they are on   i think everyone is on the same island and that is just a way to keep sawyer contained.  No one has ever seen that island because it is at a point where the others keep the losties away from.      remember them telling them not to ever cross the line
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: bhn on October 25, 2006, 11:44:51 PM
it does make sense, now here is the big question, is the village with the houses and such on the prison island or the main camp/original island?
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: JBRam on October 25, 2006, 11:48:40 PM
Niether one of the islands is called Alcatraz he just says the island they are on is twice the size of alcatraz.    I dont think that is the island that they are on   i think everyone is on the same island and that is just a way to keep sawyer contained.  No one has ever seen that island because it is at a point where the others keep the losties away from.      remember them telling them not to ever cross the line
Yes, I know. I'm just calling it Alcatraz so that it's obvious which Island I was referring to.
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: Gordon Shumway on October 25, 2006, 11:53:49 PM
I'd say the island's name is Pala...

At sea level the curvature of the earth limits the range of vision to 2.9 miles. The formula for determining how many miles an individual can see at higher levels is the square root of his altitude times 1.225. Thus on a clear day at 1,000 feet a person with normal vision can see 39 miles; at 10,000 feet, 123 miles; at 25,000 feet, 194 miles.

Kinda shoots down the theory that the island is out of range at sea level.
Title: Re: The Sub
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on October 25, 2006, 11:57:27 PM
one more thing about them being on two different islands is   how did the bears get accross the water.    bears were in the cages but now with the losties        i dont think they can swim the ocean          but then again they are polar bears living with no snow  so who knows really.



and can who ever started this thread change the name to someting about the two islands
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: scrod on October 26, 2006, 12:10:51 AM
I'd say the island's name is Pala...

At sea level the curvature of the earth limits the range of vision to 2.9 miles. The formula for determining how many miles an individual can see at higher levels is the square root of his altitude times 1.225. Thus on a clear day at 1,000 feet a person with normal vision can see 39 miles; at 10,000 feet, 123 miles; at 25,000 feet, 194 miles.

Kinda shoots down the theory that the island is out of range at sea level.
That would be true if the other island were at sea level, but it is obviously got some elevation.  What matters is not just your height, but also the height of the object you are looking at.  Therefore, they could see it from quite a distance away, but didn't. 

The crash site island is quite large, absolutely possible they have not been on that side of the island that has a view of 'Pala'.   Might be why the Others controlled their access to it.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: witness1111 on October 26, 2006, 12:16:14 AM
one more thing about them being on two different islands is   how did the bears get accross the water.    bears were in the cages but now with the losties        i dont think they can swim the ocean          but then again they are polar bears living with no snow  so who knows really.



and can who ever started this thread change the name to someting about the two islands

actually, last week someone posted some info about polar bears and it turns out they are excellent swimmers with quite a range.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: San Diego Johnny on October 26, 2006, 02:27:01 AM
It's simple to believe that the part of the crash island that faces the small island is territory that the Losties have not explored.  Remember Danielle said she has never even seen the others, so I doubt she's seen the island.  Also, if the raft was going in the opposite direction, they'd never see the other island.  Finally when Walt and Michael left, they were told to follow a compass setting of 325º, which if my calculations are correct is north north westward, which would not put him near the small island from the Pala pier if the small island is other than north westward.

Edit: compass setting corrected
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: WhatThe on October 26, 2006, 02:35:49 AM
The actual Alcatraz is not very large...even in the San Francisco bay it doesn't stand out all that much. With a fog you'd never even know it's there. I think the "Alcatraz" they're on now seemed much closer to the actual island everyone else is on simply because of how they chose to shoot the scene (which was probably an error on their part, not quite thinking it all the way through)...in reality that island, if seen by any of the crash survivors, would look like a speck of a rock and in no way would indicate that anything close to civilization would be found there.

Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: demra on October 26, 2006, 02:36:29 AM
one more thing about them being on two different islands is   how did the bears get accross the water.    bears were in the cages but now with the losties        i dont think they can swim the ocean          but then again they are polar bears living with no snow  so who knows really.



and can who ever started this thread change the name to someting about the two islands

polar bears are excellent swimmers and can swim for very long distances
as witness pointed out  
i think it is 2  islands  and the sub was used to travel between them
the Others camp with the huts is on the same island as the plane crash



Johnny  the heading that michael  was told to follow was 325  not 235

not sure if it was a typo or if you had it wrong  
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: HurleyBird on October 26, 2006, 02:43:42 AM
Like someone in of the other posts stated.  Could be that once the EMP went off it took down a forcefield that was protecting the other island.  Dont mean to sound " Star Trekish", but it could be a possibility.  Because Des would have definately seen it if he had been circling the island for a few weeks.  A point brought up by a friend of mine.  So they have been there for 70 days now, and not one person has tried walking around the island ???  That would be one of my first things to do after a plain crash, although, maybe not after hearing the monster and trees being taken down.....
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 05:17:18 AM

Of course, someone might come up with a theory that Alcatraz is a mobile island... I doubt it.

Very funny JB.  Is that a dig at me and my "floating Island just like Alcatraz" theory?  I'm so happy that Ben mentioned Alcatraz because I'm hoping it leads to a revelation that the island floats around and can't be pin-pointed exactly.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Optimus J on October 26, 2006, 05:36:44 AM
one more thing about them being on two different islands is   how did the bears get across the water.    bears were in the cages but now with the losties        i dont think they can swim the ocean          but then again they are polar bears living with no snow  so who knows really.



and can who ever started this thread change the name to someting about the two islands
Perhaps "the incident" have none to do with the swam station. But with the the bears escaping the hydra station to the island. Even thus freeing the sharks as diversion in the process.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 07:01:41 AM
Polar bears are very good swimmers.  They spend most of their time in the ocean.  Fishing.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Perseus on October 26, 2006, 08:50:36 AM
And I suppose the escaping bears hijacked the sub to get to the BIG island.

Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: lostfromthestart on October 26, 2006, 09:13:43 AM
I think the sub is also a time machine and the others are from the future.  In order to gain Jack's confidence, they brought back video of the Red Sox winning the series in some distant time frame, saying it was 2004 and making a special connection with him due to his fixation on the Red Sox.  In truth, the Sox never won the series, and we have all been conned by the others as well.

Oh... and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: kkehoe5 on October 26, 2006, 10:56:09 AM
Any thoughts that maybe "sub" stands for somthing along the lines of the repomen party. Did he say "the sub" or "sub is back" like a nickname for the leader of the repomen? I just didn't catch this last night and am throwing out some ideas.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: ozman776 on October 26, 2006, 11:08:01 AM
i remember everyone leaving on the "boat" when they hijacked it...so when did they have time to unload everyone from the sailboat back onto the submarine... and why would they if they were using motor power when they left the dock..seems from the vantage point that ben took sawyer to that the islands are maybe 2-3 miles apart max... with a critically injured woman, it seems more likely that they would just motor the sail boat back to hydra... leaving me to disagree that the sub was part of the recon mission and that it belongs to the patch guy aka "HIM"!!!
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: E-Rich on October 26, 2006, 11:08:20 AM
Polar
one more thing about them being on two different islands is   how did the bears get accross the water.    bears were in the cages but now with the losties        i dont think they can swim the ocean         

Polar Bears are big time swimmers....so them getting to a new island is not a problem.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: jugdish on October 26, 2006, 11:09:27 AM
An island was very visible at the end of season 2 at the Pala dock. You could see it when Michael drove the boat away. There are island marked on danielles map also. They knew of island but that knoweldge is of no use to them.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on October 26, 2006, 12:40:51 PM
The island showed when Michale toook off in the oldbeat up boat was chalked up to a conitnuity error as that island really does exist.Pandy even posted pics of the actual island off Oahu.In other shots of Michael taking off can't see the island.

Why did our guys not see this island when taking off in raft was it because electric magnetic field was still up?

 So now second island visible but if go to map on blast door the zooological experiments took place on main island.......

Why would they need the boat if have a submarine?
An nothing else works on this island not even defibilatrators....

 So now if can see this island wouldn't the large island thet not even god could see be showing upon satelittes everywhere?

Nice they can invent subs and extra islands to advance their plotline....
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: DaddyBeast on October 26, 2006, 01:13:34 PM
and why are the Others on that island anyway?

Maybe they go to Pala to work, and they live on the Island (hence the ferry).

I think the little Other village is on the Island because Ben sent Ethan to the crash site on foot.

Maybe funky mask guy is on the Island because it somehow keeps him alive.  If the Island didn't help Locke and Rose, then we still need to see what did help them.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: jodeci on October 26, 2006, 01:29:24 PM
Like someone in of the other posts stated.  Could be that once the EMP went off it took down a forcefield that was protecting the other island.  Dont mean to sound " Star Trekish", but it could be a possibility.  Because Des would have definately seen it if he had been circling the island for a few weeks.  A point brought up by a friend of mine.  So they have been there for 70 days now, and not one person has tried walking around the island ???  That would be one of my first things to do after a plain crash, although, maybe not after hearing the monster and trees being taken down.....
sayid did attempt to walk around and map the island back in season one.   he found the cable from the jungle into the water, followed the cable and ended up being caught in one of rousseau's traps.  but no one ever finished mapping the whole island
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Ladybug on October 26, 2006, 02:06:44 PM
one more thing about them being on two different islands is   how did the bears get accross the water.    bears were in the cages but now with the losties        i dont think they can swim the ocean          but then again they are polar bears living with no snow  so who knows really.



and can who ever started this thread change the name to someting about the two islands
maybe the others moved the bears when they released them.  would you want to live on an island inhabited by human eating polar bears?  especially ones you have had in captivity and experimented on?  i think not.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Jordanoth on October 26, 2006, 02:37:08 PM
where did this whole em field obscures vision theory come up? sounds a bit silly..

also silly: floating islands..

id also like to say that there being a second habitated island WASN'T the surprise it was the fact that they were ON that second island with nowhere to go.. we already knew the hydra station was the 'underwater hatch' and there was a lot of confusion as to how it could have been in the others nice little village and still be so close to the oceanside where ben was serving breakfast.. now we know it was in a completely different location..

there was also speculation as to why the others were so dry when they hyjacked sayid's boat, now we know it was cos they came out of a submarine..
i remember everyone leaving on the "boat" when they hijacked it...so when did they have time to unload everyone from the sailboat back onto the submarine... and why would they if they were using motor power when they left the dock..seems from the vantage point that ben took sawyer to that the islands are maybe 2-3 miles apart max... with a critically injured woman, it seems more likely that they would just motor the sail boat back to hydra... leaving me to disagree that the sub was part of the recon mission and that it belongs to the patch guy aka "HIM"!!!


couldnt they have just left a coupla others in the sub?

i would also like to commend dharma on their fantastic choice of location for the zoological research.. this location would ensure that any problems with the animals wouldnt mess with the research being done on the island.. and would pose no threat to the personnel..

Possible breaches in the shark holding tanks? well see i guess
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Socrates on October 26, 2006, 03:41:48 PM
Could the Hydra station be the sub itself?  I feel like I saw the Hydra station logo somewhere near the cages too, so I could be mistaken.  Just a thought I had.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Ladybug on October 26, 2006, 04:13:00 PM
Could the Hydra station be the sub itself?  I feel like I saw the Hydra station logo somewhere near the cages too, so I could be mistaken.  Just a thought I had.
if the hydra station is the sub, and juliette, benry, and jack are in the hydra, then wouldn't they be in the sub?  so why would benry come tell juliette the sub was there if they were IN the sub?
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Socrates on October 26, 2006, 04:17:17 PM
Good point.  I will rewatch this scene.  Just thinking about the sub and the hydra station this morning brought this thought to mind.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 04:37:51 PM
where did this whole em field obscures vision theory come up? sounds a bit silly..

also silly: floating islands..


Jordanoth, Why are floating islands silly?  In the San Francisco Bay there is a floating island.  It's called Alcatraz Island and was the site of a prison for many years.  Of all the things Ben could have said to Sawyer to explain the island's size and all the analogies he could have used, he picked Alcatraz, a floating island.  There's a reason for that.  I believe that one of the reasons the island is so hard to find is that it drifts.  We shall see..... 

Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Socrates on October 26, 2006, 04:47:03 PM
Alcatraz is a floating island?  I have lived in San Francisco for 8 years now and haven't seen the island move at all.  Are you possibly thinking of man-made islands...like treasure island (also in San Francisco Bay...were an old Navy Base used to be located)?
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 04:54:16 PM
Alcatraz is a floating island.  It has been anchored somewhat.  The fact that it floats causes problems for even the most experienced yacht racers in SF Bay because the currents are different around a floating island than they are around solid land.  Here's what I posted previously about it:

OK.  I've been searching the internet and found out that floating islands do exist in the real world.  They can be natural or man-made.  Alcatraz Island in San Francisco's Bay is a floating island.  Here's an exerpt from an article I found on yacht racing written by Gary Mull (BAY & DELTA YACHTSMAN, April 1995 issue, pages 70 ‑ 76):

"It was in the great storm of 1772 that the Spanish discovered that the promontory on which they had built their fort was not attached to the mainland, but actually seemed to be what is called now in geological circles a floating island. In fact, they had built their fort on what apparently was a large pumice plug, blown loose at some time from a volcano in some gigantic eruption. There are theories that the volcano in question is Mount Rainier, which was certainly far more active in prehistoric times than it is today.

Pumice, as everyone knows, is a fairly light, very porous rock having a density of just about 58 pounds per cubic foot, or a little more than 10 percent lighter than seawater. In other words, this stone can actually float, as is usually demonstrated in high school physics class. In fact, as it turns out, what we call Alcatraz Island is not an island at all, but a very large hunk of some prehistoric eruption which is composed mainly of pumice at its core but, of course, with crusts of heavier igneous rocks in its shell. It isn’t as buoyant as a ping-pong ball, but it is buoyant enough, as the Spaniards discovered in the 1772 storm, when the waves washed what we now call Alcatraz Island off the beach and moved it farther east, even closer to the Bay entrance.

Luckily, for some reason, it seems fairly stable in its present “upright” position, and the Spanish fort was not damaged, although the garrison was pretty shaken psychologically to find themselves winding up six miles further east at the end of the storm."


So what if Crap-hole Island was formed when an undersea volcano spat out a ginormous chunk of pumice with an iron core many eons ago?  And birds brought seeds to the island in their droppings?  And the currents and winds washed sand up onto the shores?  It could happen.....


Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Socrates on October 26, 2006, 05:10:18 PM
Interesting.  Thanks SOL.  I will have to investigate this.  Lived here all this time and had no idea.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 07:50:49 PM
Ben mentioned a tour.  Maybe you could take the tour.  I'll bet it's interesting.  Another artcle by Gary Mull, which I can't find now, mentioned that since 9/11 the custodians of Alcatraz have begun to deny that it floats.  He suspected that the denial might have something to do with maintaining the security of the island, but I don't get it.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: misspensinger on October 26, 2006, 08:07:03 PM
I remember discussing floating islands prior to this last season.  Below are a few links:
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=890.msg6304#msg6304 The mysterious island
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=1466.msg27490;topicseen#msg27490  LOL, I guess you and I were the ones discussing it SOL
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 08:12:38 PM
Yep.  That was us.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Socrates on October 26, 2006, 08:29:46 PM
I've been on the Alcatraz tour and no one mentioned the floating part.  Just talked about the history of the island's use (i.e. military base, prison, indian occupation, etc.).  Still, I am intrigued by your floating comments SOL.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: JBRam on October 26, 2006, 08:41:38 PM
Could the Hydra station be the sub itself?  I feel like I saw the Hydra station logo somewhere near the cages too, so I could be mistaken.  Just a thought I had.
Sledge has a pic in the Gallery for the Hydra logo seen in epi 3x01. It appeared next to Sawyer's cage on something that looked like a ?pipe.

Alcatraz is a floating island.  It has been anchored somewhat.  The fact that it floats causes problems for even the most experienced yacht racers in SF Bay because the currents are different around a floating island than they are around solid land.  Here's what I posted previously about it:

OK.  I've been searching the internet and found out that floating islands do exist in the real world.  They can be natural or man-made.  Alcatraz Island in San Francisco's Bay is a floating island.  Here's an exerpt from an article I found on yacht racing written by Gary Mull (BAY & DELTA YACHTSMAN, April 1995 issue, pages 70 ‑ 76):

"It was in the great storm of 1772 that the Spanish discovered that the promontory on which they had built their fort was not attached to the mainland, but actually seemed to be what is called now in geological circles a floating island. In fact, they had built their fort on what apparently was a large pumice plug, blown loose at some time from a volcano in some gigantic eruption. There are theories that the volcano in question is Mount Rainier, which was certainly far more active in prehistoric times than it is today.

Pumice, as everyone knows, is a fairly light, very porous rock having a density of just about 58 pounds per cubic foot, or a little more than 10 percent lighter than seawater. In other words, this stone can actually float, as is usually demonstrated in high school physics class. In fact, as it turns out, what we call Alcatraz Island is not an island at all, but a very large hunk of some prehistoric eruption which is composed mainly of pumice at its core but, of course, with crusts of heavier igneous rocks in its shell. It isn’t as buoyant as a ping-pong ball, but it is buoyant enough, as the Spaniards discovered in the 1772 storm, when the waves washed what we now call Alcatraz Island off the beach and moved it farther east, even closer to the Bay entrance.

Luckily, for some reason, it seems fairly stable in its present “upright” position, and the Spanish fort was not damaged, although the garrison was pretty shaken psychologically to find themselves winding up six miles further east at the end of the storm."


So what if Crap-hole Island was formed when an undersea volcano spat out a ginormous chunk of pumice with an iron core many eons ago?  And birds brought seeds to the island in their droppings?  And the currents and winds washed sand up onto the shores?  It could happen.....


VERY interesting...I'd like to see this carried out on the show, actually...
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: scrod on October 26, 2006, 08:58:19 PM
Would there be any other unique properties to a floating piece of volcanic sputum?

Speaking totally out of my butt, I can't imagine the island with that elevation actually floating.  Displacing that much dirt and rock with bouyant pumice would take a lot of pumice!
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: dcnole on October 26, 2006, 09:03:20 PM
Could the Hydra station be the sub itself?  I feel like I saw the Hydra station logo somewhere near the cages too, so I could be mistaken.  Just a thought I had.
My guess is that the Hydra station has entrances on both islands, with an underwater tunnel connecting them.  This would explain how Jack, Sawyer and Kate could get to the 2nd island without knowing they had gone to a new island (hearing a boat, hearing the engines of a submarine, getting the sensation of being on the water).  It would also explain how Goodwin and Ethan could get from the second island to the main island so quickly when dispatched by Benry on the day of the crash, if we assume (as I believe we should) that the main Others village is on this second island.  And since we know Jack's cell is under water, presumably, it's located in section off of the tunnel portion of the Hydra station, located under the span of water that Sawyer viewed seperating the two islands.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: scrod on October 26, 2006, 09:18:13 PM
I wonder if that tunnel thing is the case DCNOLE, the only issue would be using a sub to sneak over to the dock and on the boat would be more plausible to escape detection from Sayid's fire.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: esque0 on October 26, 2006, 09:24:53 PM
My guess is that the Hydra station has entrances on both islands, with an underwater tunnel connecting them.  This would explain how Jack, Sawyer and Kate could get to the 2nd island without knowing they had gone to a new island (hearing a boat, hearing the engines of a submarine, getting the sensation of being on the water).  It would also explain how Goodwin and Ethan could get from the second island to the main island so quickly when dispatched by Benry on the day of the crash, if we assume (as I believe we should) that the main Others village is on this second island.  And since we know Jack's cell is under water, presumably, it's located in section off of the tunnel portion of the Hydra station, located under the span of water that Sawyer viewed seperating the two islands.

They could have just blindfolded them, put them on a boat, and taken them to Island2.  The Losties already believed the Others were using boats to travel from one part of the main Island to the other, so that's what they would assume was happening to them.  They would have no reason to believe they were being taken to a completely different island.

As for Otherville, if you believe it's on Island2, then you also need to believe not only that Ben was lying about the size of the island (since even just the valley containing Othersville is bigger than twice the size of Alcatraz), but that the Tailies didn't notice the huge island within sight of their crash site, and the land connecting Otherville with the Tailie site in the 3.1 long-shot was an optical illusion planted by the producers to trick us. 
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Gordon Shumway on October 26, 2006, 09:38:10 PM
Can a floating island support a sand beach?  Seems to me the sand would eventually erode off (rain, etc.) and with no connection to the sea floor, it wouldn't be replaced.  Or, am I overthinking this?  I don't recall Alcatraz having a sand beach.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 09:40:36 PM
Would there be any other unique properties to a floating piece of volcanic sputum?


The most interesting thing about it is that the currents cause yachts/boats to run aground.  Even seasoned yacht racers have problems with the currents around Alcatraz.  I'm wondering if the currents around Craphole Island would cause boats to sail in a circle around it?  Or get shipwrecked?  I dunno.  Another interesting note came from a magazine called Latitude 38.  They had mentioned that Alcatraz floats, and then started getting emails from Homeland Security asking them not to mention it.  

Here's a quote from their letters section:

EVERYONE THINKS I'M CRAZY

I've been reading Latitude for several months now, and came across the article about Alcatraz being an anchored, floating island that moves around a little with the wind and tide. But when I mention it to people, everyone thinks I'm crazy. Could you point me to any information that may help me better persuade my friends and co-workers?

A side note, I have recently started crewing on a couple of boats in the midwinters, and it's been a great learning experience. I'm also learning about wooden boats. But I'll always remember that my first sailing experiences on the Bay were aboard Credit and Shadow.

Brian Valle
Tiburon

Brian - As we mentioned previously, because Alcatraz is every bit as important a landmark as the Golden Gate Bridge and Disneyland, the fact that it's a floating island has become a significant Homeland Security issue. The plans for the anchoring system have long been removed from the Internet, and Howard Hughes' involvement with the reanchoring of the island after the attack on Pearl Harbor was deleted from the movie The Aviator. We'd say more, but we've already received a couple of cryptic emails with government URLs that simply read, "Shut up or Gitmo!" We've got nothing more to say, because while we hope to return to Cuba some day, we want it to be on our boat at Baracoa, not in a cell at Guantanamo. So just keep telling yourself, "I'm sane, everyone else is nuts." It works for us.


Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: JBRam on October 26, 2006, 09:42:25 PM
Not having been to LA or Alcatraz, I can't say for sure, but every picture I've seen had a rocky cliff-like beach...
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: dcnole on October 26, 2006, 09:44:16 PM
My guess is that the Hydra station has entrances on both islands, with an underwater tunnel connecting them.  This would explain how Jack, Sawyer and Kate could get to the 2nd island without knowing they had gone to a new island (hearing a boat, hearing the engines of a submarine, getting the sensation of being on the water).  It would also explain how Goodwin and Ethan could get from the second island to the main island so quickly when dispatched by Benry on the day of the crash, if we assume (as I believe we should) that the main Others village is on this second island.  And since we know Jack's cell is under water, presumably, it's located in section off of the tunnel portion of the Hydra station, located under the span of water that Sawyer viewed seperating the two islands.

They could have just blindfolded them, put them on a boat, and taken them to Island2.  The Losties already believed the Others were using boats to travel from one part of the main Island to the other, so that's what they would assume was happening to them.  They would have no reason to believe they were being taken to a completely different island.
Of course they could have just taken them on the boat blindfolded.  That's why I said my theory was a guess, not an authoritative conclusion.  We know they were blindfolded. And we know the Others have boats (although they did give the one boat we've seen to Michael).  So it's possible they just loaded them up.  But it would a little weird for Sawyer to be so surprised by what he saw if he had known he had ridden on a boat trip to get to where he was being held.  On the other hand, if he had thought that he had walked from the dock to the cage, you could understand his shock.  Thus my theory.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 09:48:35 PM
When we see our Losties for the first time at the Hydra station, they are all just waking up and have puncture wounds on the inside of their elbows.  We've been assuming they had blood drawn from their arms, but what if instead they had been drugged and taken to the island while unconcious?  They wouldn't know how they got there at all.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: dcnole on October 26, 2006, 09:55:58 PM
When we see our Losties for the first time at the Hydra station, they are all just waking up and have puncture wounds on the inside of their elbows.  We've been assuming they had blood drawn from their arms, but what if instead they had been drugged and taken to the island while unconcious?  They wouldn't know how they got there at all.
Definitely possible and I thought about this at first. But then I began to wonder why the Others would have gone through the stunt of putting those burlap bags back on their heads (right at the very end of the season 2 finale) if they were just going to inject them with a knockout drug 2 minutes later and carry their unconscious bodies onto a boat.  Sure seemed like they were using the bags in same way we saw them use them on Jack in this last episode--to move them from one place to another by foot without revealing where they were going. 

Still, you could definitely be right.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: misspensinger on October 26, 2006, 10:01:35 PM
When we see our Losties for the first time at the Hydra station, they are all just waking up and have puncture wounds on the inside of their elbows.  We've been assuming they had blood drawn from their arms, but what if instead they had been drugged and taken to the island while unconcious?  They wouldn't know how they got there at all.
Yes, I find this very plausible.  Also, they could have used the bags as a fear tactic too.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 10:21:11 PM
The bags could be to discourage them from fighting.  If you can't see you can't hit and you can't run.  That's the premise behind pepper spray.  It temporarily blinds you so you can't fight.  Your opponent can just get out of your way.  Bags or blindfolds would work the same way.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 26, 2006, 10:24:57 PM
Ben told Sawyer that the island they are on is roughly twice the size of Alcatraz.  Alcatraz is 12 acres, so the island is about 24 acres.  That's not very big at all.  It's quite small for a settlement that doesn't even take up the whole island......  My yard is an acre and a quarter and only has one little house on it.  Very tiny.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: dcnole on October 27, 2006, 12:08:53 AM
The bags could be to discourage them from fighting.  If you can't see you can't hit and you can't run.  That's the premise behind pepper spray.  It temporarily blinds you so you can't fight.  Your opponent can just get out of your way.  Bags or blindfolds would work the same way.
But they were already bound and on their knees. It's not like they bagged them on the run.  I don't really see how they could fight from that position any more or less with a bag on their head.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 27, 2006, 12:42:03 AM
As long as the Losties stay on their knees there's no problem.  But how do you transport three people without getting them up off their knees?  And once they're up they can kick their captors.  Unless they can't see them.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: JBRam on October 27, 2006, 12:44:57 AM
Well, if they're leading them by the hand, they can guess at where they are, no?
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Jordanoth on October 27, 2006, 05:53:36 AM
perhaps floating islands are a possibility, and i admit not overly silly..

i dont thinks so, but it is not silly..
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 27, 2006, 06:46:04 AM
Thanks, Jordanoth.  Not as silly as egg-laying deer, anyway.  It's just a theory, but I thought it was really interesting that Ben mentioned Alcatraz.  I started a new thread about Other Island under Lost Talk.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Creflo on October 27, 2006, 09:58:24 AM
While we're divergring...

Alcatraz has already been the target of a terrorist attack:

"In 1969, a group of American Indians from many different tribes, calling themselves United Indians of All Tribes (many were relocated to the Bay Area under the federal Termination program), occupied the island, and proposed an education center, ecology center, and cultural center. According to the occupants, in a Sioux treaty the government conceded that all retired, abandoned, or out-of-use federal land must be returned to the Native people from whom it was acquired. During the occupation, several buildings were damaged or destroyed, including the recreation hall, Coast Guard quarters, and the Warden's home. A number of other buildings (mostly apartments) were destroyed by the U.S. Government after the occupation had ended. After 18 months of occupation, the government forced them off. But the end of Termination and the new policy of self-determination were established in 1970 as a direct result of the occupation."
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Ladybug on October 27, 2006, 11:00:17 AM
Not having been to LA or Alcatraz, I can't say for sure, but every picture I've seen had a rocky cliff-like beach...
{whisper}jb, alcatraz is in san francisco{:)}
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Ladybug on October 27, 2006, 11:04:52 AM
i am fascinated with all the information about alcatraz.  i never knew it was a floating island, and i am a bit obsessed with it.  (and don't know why)

i have been thinking about the idea of the underwater tunnel.  i like it.  it connects the 2 islands, it explains how ethan and goodwin were able to get to the losties "by foot", and it explains the underwater hatch (sort of).
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Kimbagrl on October 27, 2006, 12:25:41 PM
I don't think they're (jackkatesawer) are on a separate island at all. I think Benfry was showing Sawer a hologram. He's conning him. If there was another island, wouldn't the Losties have seen it? Or, at least, Sayid, Jin and Sun would have when they were sailing around.   
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Ladybug on October 27, 2006, 12:27:26 PM
it is possible the losties have not seen the island, if the one they are on is big enough, and they have been on the other side.  i don't understand how DANIELLE hasn't seen the other's other island.  she has been there for 16 years.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: msdoran on October 27, 2006, 12:56:07 PM
Just as an FYI, when they sent the party out to intercept the boat that Sayeed's group was on they said they were going to the Galaga, and I wondered what they were talking about. That was confirmed in this week's episode when the sub was mentioned, so using logic the sub's name is Galaga. So, who is ready to check for the meaning of that name? besides the obvious great 1980's video game tie in?
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: demra on October 27, 2006, 01:11:39 PM
i am fascinated with all the information about alcatraz.  i never knew it was a floating island, and i am a bit obsessed with it.  (and don't know why)

i have been thinking about the idea of the underwater tunnel.  i like it.  it connects the 2 islands, it explains how ethan and goodwin were able to get to the losties "by foot", and it explains the underwater hatch (sort of).


i had the thought too about a tunnel between islands
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Creflo on October 27, 2006, 02:39:27 PM
I hate to feed into a really hoakey premise, but if you review the shot of Ben and Sawyer with the Lost island in the background, it does look kinda blue-screened.  However, that's probably because they couldn't get exactly the shot they wanted, so they used special effects.

Also, there is a weird lighting rig near some rocks right as they get to the cliff, before they show the alleged hologram shot.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Gordon Shumway on October 27, 2006, 05:03:00 PM
I don't think the islands are floating.  Nor do I believe that there is any dome over the islands.  However, I do believe the island could have been invisable to radar and microwaves due to what ever was going on with the Swan station and the electro magent.  It sounds similar to the anouncement that scientists were able to bend light waves to make an object appear invisable.

See this article: <a href> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061019-invisible-cloak.html?source=rss </a>

Now that the Swan has been destroyed, I think the island can be found by radar.  Compasses will now act normally as well.

Also, if in fact the island is found to be floating, I submit to you that they are connected (and thus the same island) and that there is a relatively shallow channel in between them - the tip of the iceberg as it were.  If they are both floating independantly they'd eventually drift apart.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Socrates on October 27, 2006, 06:43:16 PM
Can a floating island support a sand beach?  Seems to me the sand would eventually erode off (rain, etc.) and with no connection to the sea floor, it wouldn't be replaced.  Or, am I overthinking this?  I don't recall Alcatraz having a sand beach.

This is true....there is no "beach" on Alcatraz island.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: jugdish on October 27, 2006, 10:19:39 PM
I don't think the islands are floating.  Nor do I believe that there is any dome over the islands.  However, I do believe the island could have been invisable to radar and microwaves due to what ever was going on with the Swan station and the electro magent.  It sounds similar to the anouncement that scientists were able to bend light waves to make an object appear invisable.

See this article: <a href> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061019-invisible-cloak.html?source=rss </a>

Now that the Swan has been destroyed, I think the island can be found by radar.  Compasses will now act normally as well.

Also, if in fact the island is found to be floating, I submit to you that they are connected (and thus the same island) and that there is a relatively shallow channel in between them - the tip of the iceberg as it were.  If they are both floating independantly they'd eventually drift apart.

If this is true than the show will be over soon. Scientist would be very interested in a huge island the just appeared with vegetation that is centuries old. I think it is still hidden, how you ask, no friggin idea.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: jugdish on October 27, 2006, 10:20:43 PM
I don't think they're (jackkatesawer) are on a separate island at all. I think Benfry was showing Sawer a hologram. He's conning him. If there was another island, wouldn't the Losties have seen it? Or, at least, Sayid, Jin and Sun would have when they were sailing around.  

They have old medical equipment(paddles) but have a hologram. We saw the island at the end of season 2 on the pala dock as Michael drove away. It was plan as day.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Shadowcrest on October 27, 2006, 11:21:01 PM
Hello ,
  I am new to these forums .
But I have to say reading these pages is soooo fun !!!
Anyways ...In season 2 when Syid wanted Desmonds boat to help Jack, Desmond says to him , You going to see the Hostiles...So does this imply that Desmond in fact has seen this other island ? Or that he has just come into contact some how with others on the island ?

  Also The Main island is where I belive the Others main camp to be...its a huge huge island, and its also huge enough to not explore all of it . When it comes to the french woman.she may not have explored that part of the island ."Others" Scareing her into staying in one section of the island . In the 1st episode of this season you can clearly see how big the island is...what we do not see is the left hand said of the island...could this be where the 2nd island is ? I think the Hydra is on the 2nd island..Bring the bears and sharks in do tests on them and take them back to the main island to let them be.. Therefor they would need something as in a sub to travel back and forth . Its a Huge island !!!


 
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Austruck on October 28, 2006, 01:20:30 AM
Couple of things to clear up that I'm noticing getting mentioned (and re-mentioned) in this thread:

-- Everyone assumes that seeing a small second island would, like, change things for the Losties. Essentially it would have changed nothing for them to see the other island. So, perhaps they've known about it but it hasn't been relevant to them.

-- Danielle did know about the second island. There are several tiny islands on the map.

-- In fact, at least one of the tiny islands is so far around the main island where the Lostie's camp is that there's no way it could be seen by the Losties on a normal day.

-- If the Hydra Others traveled by sub from the Hydra to the Pala Ferry Dock, then this is the side of the island that faces the smaller island. And the only Losties who know about this whole side of the huge island are the ones who have come in closer contact with the Others (Sayid, Jin, Sun ... Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Michael, Hurley).

-- SO, if the Losties haven't seen the island before now, at this point only Hurley could tell them about it because he's the only one who's made it all the way back to camp.

-- But again, is it even relevant to them?

-- The Hydra station is merely a satellite station for the Others, not where their main quarters are. Their bungalows are on the main island.

-----

I think the Lost writers give us a lot of little answers to things, pieces that *really do* fit in the puzzle, but so much overthinking and nitpicking has resulted that we can't even see the obvious stuff:

-- The "sub" really is a submarine. We're overthinking it to think he might have meant something else. The writers gave us a small piece of the puzzle with that reference, and we somehow want to hack it to pieces and throw it back to them and say, "Nope, we don't want that piece. It fits too well."

-- They really are on a second island. Again, a piece of the puzzle. It explains some things. Let it! Don't fight it all the time.

-- Same with things like Ben's x-ray, etc.

I lurk here quite a bit and post some of the time. I find it amusing to read how many people will shred an entire good plot development to the point where it doesn't make any sense any more. It's like we're all convinced that everything is cryptic to the point of confusion, so we refuse to accept any "help" from the scriptwriters.

:)

I just LOVE this show, though, don't you?? One step forward, two steps back. LOVE it.   ;D
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: jugdish on October 28, 2006, 01:27:34 AM
Austruck great post. I have posted on about 5 threads about them seeing the island on the Pala dock and on danielles maps. I also agree that seeing a small island near them would be important. If anyone normal lived on the island they would of come to help the plane crash victums.

I also agree that some things are what they are. They are on a different island, they have a sub and they want Jack to operate on someone.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: demra on October 28, 2006, 01:30:34 AM
I don't think the islands are floating.  Nor do I believe that there is any dome over the islands.  However, I do believe the island could have been invisable to radar and microwaves due to what ever was going on with the Swan station and the electro magent.  It sounds similar to the anouncement that scientists were able to bend light waves to make an object appear invisable.

See this article: <a href> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061019-invisible-cloak.html?source=rss </a>

Now that the Swan has been destroyed, I think the island can be found by radar.  Compasses will now act normally as well.

Also, if in fact the island is found to be floating, I submit to you that they are connected (and thus the same island) and that there is a relatively shallow channel in between them - the tip of the iceberg as it were.  If they are both floating independantly they'd eventually drift apart.


I disagree that the island is now visable because of the swan implosion
i think it was momentarily visible  but that the natural magnetic anomaly will keep it from being seen easily by normal means

altho your theory about using the magnetic field to aid in hiding the island  does sound promising

we still are not sure what the original " incident " was that cause the construction of the swan station and the protocol for the button to be pushed every 108 minutes

if i remember correctly the island was used by slave traders because it was hard to find and therefore a safe harbor

Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: jugdish on October 28, 2006, 01:31:52 AM
All excellent points demra and very true.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Wishbone on October 28, 2006, 02:50:02 PM
I believe there are 2 islands and it wasn't a hologram type trick - Sawyer had to climb a big hill before he could see it so from lostie island it will just look like a big mound of rock and grass, nothing to get excited about from their point of view - particluarly as there looks to be a few of these little islands from Danielles map.

Not convinced about the submarine though - we did sort of see a car in episode one so maybe there is a tunnell connecting the islands and this is how they travel to it.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: Optimus J on October 28, 2006, 03:14:01 PM
Hmmmmm... And if the magnetic anomaly is discharged, the island didn't lost it's protecting field?
According to Ben, no. He saw the discharge, and still said Sayid would sail in circles.
But again, We haven't even 48 hours since the discharge, and the the two guy in the pole who detected it could be assembling the team of Widmore to get there while the magnetic anomaly doesn't recharge.
About the second Island, everyone is forgetting that the people on pearl station are instructed to use the docks "Pala Ferry" to go to the barracks. Why they have to use a dock to go sleep? There must be a Submarine yes, as the current transportation.
We have to remember that the others might have used the pearl station to attract Mike, since the cameras on the swan are linked to the monitors there. And by them they could control the moves of everyone in the Swan, sending "Walt's messages" right on time.
Title: Re: The Sub and Two Islands
Post by: mindsparkle on October 28, 2006, 03:22:46 PM
Excellent post by Austruck on page 5, definitely worth reading...