Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 3 => Episode 3x01 => Topic started by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 05, 2006, 07:07:03 PM

Title: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 05, 2006, 07:07:03 PM
Did anybody else notice that Tom said to Sawyer that it took two hours for 'the bears' to figure out getting the fish biscuit thingy?

I'd love to know if he meant polar bears or normal bears. Either way, they must have been quite clever to figure out that strange puzzle.

The cages really surprised me because there were tonnes of them (when Sawyer tried to run away, he was running along the back of them) but I couldn't really tell if they had been out of use for a long time or not. We only saw the one polar bear before - there must have been more at some point in the past?

Also, does anybody think Kate's cage was different from Sawyers?

Sorry - tonnes of questions. Apologies if they have already been covered but I didn't see any threads mentioning these things so I thought I'd put one together...
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: sledgeweb on October 05, 2006, 07:15:36 PM
We actually saw two polar bears. The one Sawyer kills, and the one that attacks Walt.

The orientation film talks about zoological research, and it appears the Hydra station is very similar to a zoo. Those cages behind Sawyer as he is running you mention look a lot like cages that monkeys or birds would be in. The cages Sawyer and Kate are in are obviously for large animals. In particular, the cage Sawyer was in was intended to promote behavioral cooperation (one bear had to press a lever while another bear pulled a different lever). Jack was in the same station, but in an area intended for aquatic research on species such as sharks and dolphins and sea horses.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 05, 2006, 07:20:03 PM
You're right Sledge - fanx I had forgotten about the other one.

In fact, it hadn't even crossed my mind that they would have more than one bear in the cage that Sawyer was in! That is even more interesting! I hope we get a better look at Kates cage next week - it will be interesting to see what other activities each cage promotes...

I noticed specifically the 'bed' that Jack was on had lots of holes that I would assume would be for water to drain away?  
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Foxyschic on October 05, 2006, 07:20:51 PM
Interesting, that Juliette said this used to be an experimental station.  But Tom had actually seen the bears complete the puzzle in two hours? Hmmm...interesting connection to are the others part of Dharma thread.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: kissinggabriela on October 05, 2006, 08:46:37 PM
Dont Polar Bear cages usually have water sections included with them?  Could that mean there is some connection to the water section of the Hydra station?

For what it's worth, the polar bear's Latin name is Ursus maritimus, which means "sea bear" and shows up on the blast door...
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Michelle13 on October 05, 2006, 09:00:58 PM
At the zoo here the polar bears have caves and such to hide out in but the main part of their area is a huge pool to play in...so I don't know that the bears would be kept in a small cage like this one then walked over to the water areas...but it's something to think on!  ;D
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: LostGirlDeb on October 05, 2006, 09:12:06 PM
Interesting, that Juliette said this used to be an experimental station.  But Tom had actually seen the bears complete the puzzle in two hours? Hmmm...interesting connection to are the others part of Dharma thread.
Hey that is an excellent point!! what gives with this weird time line?
unless Juliet was also part of the past that she was refering to.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: LostGirlDeb on October 05, 2006, 09:16:57 PM
At the zoo here the polar bears have caves and such to hide out in but the main part of their area is a huge pool to play in...so I don't know that the bears would be kept in a small cage like this one then walked over to the water areas...but it's something to think on!  ;D

Hmmm That is true Chelle.. I just went to the zoo this summer too.
hmmm so maybe the cages were not for our polar bears or they were teaching the polar bears to be different in some way..I mean they are on a tropical Island so that is not the ideal habitat for a Polar bear to begin with.

I love Sawyer to death (he is my main man) but he did remind me of a curious monkey while he was trying to figure out the gizmo in the cage (cracked me up) :P
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Michelle13 on October 05, 2006, 09:35:02 PM
Sawyer friggin cracked me UP!!!!!!!!!! when he won the prize ...the music playing and him orchestrating...LMAO Good times, good times.

Good point, polar bears on tropical island...watering hole in different area stuff...again, something to think on!  ;)
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Pandora on October 06, 2006, 02:26:15 AM
Dont Polar Bear cages usually have water sections included with them?  Could that mean there is some connection to the water section of the Hydra station?

For what it's worth, the polar bear's Latin name is Ursus maritimus, which means "sea bear" and shows up on the blast door...

Yeah, polar bears spend a lot of time in the water in a natural environment... but then again, their natural environment wouldn't be a tropical island either, so I guess they won't be simulating any good humane enclosure for 'normal' polar bears... :) 

PLP, I was somewhat confused also by the whole cage scene, and why they should make it so complicated for the bears to get their food... as in, if they were being trained for something particular.  Also, on what exactly it was that threw Sawyer backwards... whether or not that was an electric shock, or what.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on October 06, 2006, 03:01:24 AM
diffinately looked like a shock to me a very large one at that
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: sledgeweb on October 06, 2006, 03:06:47 AM
Yeah, polar bears spend a lot of time in the water in a natural environment... but then again, their natural environment wouldn't be a tropical island either, so I guess they won't be simulating any good humane enclosure for 'normal' polar bears... :) 

PLP, I was somewhat confused also by the whole cage scene, and why they should make it so complicated for the bears to get their food... as in, if they were being trained for something particular.  Also, on what exactly it was that threw Sawyer backwards... whether or not that was an electric shock, or what.

Sawyer's cage was obviously set up to reward cooperative behavior in animals. Why this is being studied is an interesting question. I'm not sure how encouraging the bears to work together translates into furthering the Dharma Initiative...
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Desmond8MyPopRocks on October 06, 2006, 03:34:56 AM
It's a classic Skinner Box and is common in studying animal behavior--particularly as it relates to reasoning abilities, ability to recognize  pictures rather than words (visual v. audial simuli.  It is nothing more than a testing facility--and perhaps was set up to test stimuli in an environment where electromagnetism is so prevalent a factor--something that couldn't be measured on the mainland.

This isn't Ozzie and Harriet's zoo, folks.

It also does not surprise me to stick humans into a Skinner Box situation, particularly since this was done with animals-rats-during the early 30s, and after 34, ultimately human Skinner Box tests were conducted by the Nazi Hitler regime during WW II.

Mark my words, the Stockholm Syndrome will come out of this for one of our Losties--history has a way of repeating itself and ultimately, according to human research conducted during the Third Reich's time, people are conditioned the same as animals, or can be, depending upon if you can break their free will, that being the key.  You break them to the point of hopelessness and renew a sense of "being" by instilling the values or thought processes of survival you want your subject to exhibit.

Animals have no way of discerning what "free will" is, but people do.  When this revelation was revealed during the early 40s, the experiment was furthered to include humans and the psychological experiments were directly related to how to alter human "free will."

The results later were disected, studied and used by some incredibly depraved people over time and hence used as "mind control" techniques for not only various militaries the world over (Pol Pot for one), but for every pretty bright fringe nutball who wanted to kidnap someone and turn them into a slave.  One of the most notorious cases was the "SLA Hearst" case in the 70s, but ultimately carried over into mainstream psycho society and would be used for years to come on various hostages or kidnap victims.  One of those most notorious cases was that of some freak in Red Bluff CA who kidnapped a very young woman in the 70s and used the same techniques on her, turning her into a human slave.  and she loved him because she knew nothing else.

It's an incredibly intricate process, but the fact that TheOthers seem to be headed down this path is--depraved, and it shows that they're not only highly intelligent, but they know their psychology, and are willing to use it to further whatever purpose it is they have to fulfill.

eeeeeeeek.
cheers
*Des8
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: MaxsDad on October 06, 2006, 04:55:48 PM
It's a classic Skinner Box and is common in studying animal behavior--particularly as it relates to reasoning abilities, ability to recognize  pictures rather than words (visual v. audial simuli.  It is nothing more than a testing facility--and perhaps was set up to test stimuli in an environment where electromagnetism is so prevalent a factor--something that couldn't be measured on the mainland.

This isn't Ozzie and Harriet's zoo, folks.

It also does not surprise me to stick humans into a Skinner Box situation, particularly since this was done with animals-rats-during the early 30s, and after 34, ultimately human Skinner Box tests were conducted by the Nazi Hitler regime during WW II.

Mark my words, the Stockholm Syndrome will come out of this for one of our Losties--history has a way of repeating itself and ultimately, according to human research conducted during the Third Reich's time, people are conditioned the same as animals, or can be, depending upon if you can break their free will, that being the key.  You break them to the point of hopelessness and renew a sense of "being" by instilling the values or thought processes of survival you want your subject to exhibit.

Animals have no way of discerning what "free will" is, but people do.  When this revelation was revealed during the early 40s, the experiment was furthered to include humans and the psychological experiments were directly related to how to alter human "free will."

The results later were disected, studied and used by some incredibly depraved people over time and hence used as "mind control" techniques for not only various militaries the world over (Pol Pot for one), but for every pretty bright fringe nutball who wanted to kidnap someone and turn them into a slave.  One of the most notorious cases was the "SLA Hearst" case in the 70s, but ultimately carried over into mainstream psycho society and would be used for years to come on various hostages or kidnap victims.  One of those most notorious cases was that of some freak in Red Bluff CA who kidnapped a very young woman in the 70s and used the same techniques on her, turning her into a human slave.  and she loved him because she knew nothing else.

It's an incredibly intricate process, but the fact that TheOthers seem to be headed down this path is--depraved, and it shows that they're not only highly intelligent, but they know their psychology, and are willing to use it to further whatever purpose it is they have to fulfill.

eeeeeeeek.
cheers
*Des8
:o that was good.....
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 06, 2006, 05:35:52 PM
Wow!! I really am impressed - I don't know what to say!!!!  
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 06, 2006, 09:41:16 PM
I thought we already knew this from the Blast door map.. "Accelerated de-terrorialisation through gene therapy and extreme climate change" so this all sorta just filled in the blanks of an idea that has already been introduced to us.

How does this have to do with the Dharma initiative? we know from the swan orientation film that they were researching zoology, and from the sri lanka video that they were there to change the  numerical factors of the equation to stave off the end of the world.. So i would suggest that the  different areas of the research on the island represent the different factors on the island.

How does zoology have to do with mankinds demise? well ill just throw a couple of guesses out there. how fast large mammals and fish can react to extreme climate change would be important to know if they were planning for a nuclear winter, or a nuclear summer (i dont even know if that even exists), or how it effects food reproduction, or trying to simulate the human bodies ability to acclimatise.

thats all i have to say about that
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 06, 2006, 09:58:51 PM
diffinately looked like a shock to me a very large one at that
What is a large shock for Sawyer may be a smaller one for a ?polar bear.

Yeah, polar bears spend a lot of time in the water in a natural environment... but then again, their natural environment wouldn't be a tropical island either, so I guess they won't be simulating any good humane enclosure for 'normal' polar bears... :) 

PLP, I was somewhat confused also by the whole cage scene, and why they should make it so complicated for the bears to get their food... as in, if they were being trained for something particular.  Also, on what exactly it was that threw Sawyer backwards... whether or not that was an electric shock, or what.
It seems pretty obvious that the Dharma people weren't (?aren't) really concerned about humanitarianism in their "zoos." The experiments (to be completed in only two hours) must have been performed on very hungry polar bears. Bears aren't especially known for their intelligence.

I'm curious what other animals have been tested. Sledge said that some of the cages looked like they were used for birds? What about that Hurley bird?
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on October 07, 2006, 02:36:16 AM
What is a large shock for Sawyer may be a smaller one for a ?polar bear.
It seems pretty obvious that the Dharma people weren't (?aren't) really concerned about humanitarianism in their "zoos." The experiments (to be completed in only two hours) must have been performed on very hungry polar bears. Bears aren't especially known for their intelligence.

I'm curious what other animals have been tested. Sledge said that some of the cages looked like they were used for birds? What about that Hurley bird?

yes  the shock was designed for a much larger animal  like the polar bears that are on the island
and bears are known for being very smart JB  polar bears will track and hunt their pray for days
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Michelle13 on October 07, 2006, 10:43:13 AM
and bears are known for being very smart JB  polar bears will track and hunt their pray for days

Kinda like a long con huh??  ;)
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Desmond8MyPopRocks on October 07, 2006, 03:31:38 PM
Kinda like a long con huh??  ;)

Chelle
LOL..... nice going--and right-ie-oh

cheers
*Des8
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Michelle13 on October 07, 2006, 04:20:25 PM
Chelle
LOL..... nice going--and right-ie-oh

cheers
*Des8


sneaky ain't i? lol....
Title: Other
Post by: JBRam on October 07, 2006, 10:45:30 PM
What is a large shock for Sawyer may be a smaller one for a ?polar bear.
It seems pretty obvious that the Dharma people weren't (?aren't) really concerned about humanitarianism in their "zoos." The experiments (to be completed in only two hours) must have been performed on very hungry polar bears. Bears aren't especially known for their intelligence.

I'm curious what other animals have been tested. Sledge said that some of the cages looked like they were used for birds? What about that Hurley bird?

yes  the shock was designed for a much larger animal  like the polar bears that are on the island
and bears are known for being very smart JB  polar bears will track and hunt their pray for days
Really? It seems if bears were really smart, they'd find there food in less than a week... lol jk

Yes, you're right.. I keep forgetting we're talking about polar bears here. Polar bears are actually quite intelligent, but it seems like the bears in my area are more of the dumb variety.

And since I don't like in Alaska, we don't have polar bears.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 08, 2006, 06:45:34 AM
I thought this had been merged but I can't see the other thread on this one...? How does that work then?  
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Pandora on October 08, 2006, 06:53:19 AM
I thought this had been merged but I can't see the other thread on this one...? How does that work then?  

Sorry for the confusion, PLP :)  Was never trying to merge your thread, but another short one into yours (by a newer member)... but then I decided that it was better merged into the Hydra station thread instead, since yours is about the actual contraption of the bear feeding device.... so I took it out again.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 08, 2006, 06:56:28 AM
I thought this had been merged but I can't see the other thread on this one...? How does that work then?  

Sorry for the confusion, PLP :)  Was never trying to merge your thread, but another short one into yours (by a newer member)... but then I decided that it was better merged into the Hydra station thread instead, since yours is about the actual contraption of the bear feeding device.... so I took it out again.

No worries at all Pandora, I wasn't questionning you, I was just a bit confused as I half expected to see posts from both threads in the one thread (is that right!?). If you want to merge it, you go ahead, if not, that's cool too. We all completely trust you and you do a great job!

p.s. hope you are well!  ;D
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Pandora on October 08, 2006, 07:02:36 AM
PLP: hehe, trying to keep the moving to a minimum but yeah, sometimes it happens :)

It seems pretty obvious that the Dharma people weren't (?aren't) really concerned about humanitarianism in their "zoos." The experiments (to be completed in only two hours) must have been performed on very hungry polar bears. Bears aren't especially known for their intelligence.

Heh, oh, my crack about "humane" enclosures was more sarcasm about the fact that this was all performed on a tropical island (pretty hot for polar bears)... that's all :)  Wasn't really making a statement about their technique.

And on my confusion... it was more about the reason they would target polar bears in the first place.  There's much easier animals to observe and train for this kind of behavior... so why choose a large, aggressive carnivore that is hard to maintain on a desert island?  They could study this in smaller apes or rodents, for instance....
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Dave on October 09, 2006, 12:03:35 PM
Hmm - I wonder if the cages were there to study or to train/assess the bear's level of intelligence. For some reason the logo as seen on the shark in Season 2 has got me thinking a bit... especially considering the latest picture in the Investigation section here on Lost.Cubit - we know from the blast door that DI was involved in manipulating the polar bear's climate through gene therapy. That along with 'branding' the shark makes me think that perhaps the end goal was the marketing of these animals as security systems/real biological weapons? Think of Hanso's weapons dealing past (if I'm remembering correctly) & the need to make & study 'smart' animals...
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 09, 2006, 12:18:00 PM
I had an elaborate and rather funny theory (in hindsight) on the underwater hatch a while back.. i thought it would good for a laugh for you guys to see it in light of what we have seen now..

http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/11/sharks-and-underwater-hatches/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/11/sharks-and-underwater-hatches/)

make sure you dont laugh too hard or ill get ya
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 09, 2006, 05:37:16 PM
Nice one! I went to comment but it wouldn't let me...?
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 09, 2006, 06:17:30 PM
Are polar bears smart enough to recognize that a knife and fork symbolize food?  I laughed when I saw those on the big button.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 09, 2006, 08:26:16 PM
Nice one! I went to comment but it wouldn't let me...?

yeah i stopped going there.. the site is pretty unstable.. keeps crashing, my theories' ratings got wiped along with a hundred others.. and there you go, here i am
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: mindsparkle on October 10, 2006, 02:01:30 AM
Are polar bears smart enough to recognize that a knife and fork symbolize food?  I laughed when I saw those on the big button.

This made my sides hurt from laughing... I never even caught on... great eye Sweet Old Lady... awesome catch!
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 10, 2006, 03:06:59 AM
hehe maybe the next test makes them actually try to USE a knife and fork!!  ;D
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 10, 2006, 09:20:02 AM
Nice one! I went to comment but it wouldn't let me...?

yeah i stopped going there.. the site is pretty unstable.. keeps crashing, my theories' ratings got wiped along with a hundred others.. and there you go, here i am

Well, I'm glad in a way as we get the benefit of your opinions and not them!  
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 10, 2006, 09:20:36 AM
Are polar bears smart enough to recognize that a knife and fork symbolize food?  I laughed when I saw those on the big button.

This made my sides hurt from laughing... I never even caught on... great eye Sweet Old Lady... awesome catch!

Soooo true and soooo funny!!! LOL!!!
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 10, 2006, 09:28:52 AM
Nice one! I went to comment but it wouldn't let me...?

yeah i stopped going there.. the site is pretty unstable.. keeps crashing, my theories' ratings got wiped along with a hundred others.. and there you go, here i am

Well, I'm glad in a way as we get the benefit of your opinions and not them!  

heres the other two (remaining) theories that are on that site if youre interested..
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/oct/03/magnet-and-valenzetti-and-othe/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/oct/03/magnet-and-valenzetti-and-othe/)
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/15/danielle-and-disease/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/15/danielle-and-disease/)

alot of its probably been rehashed here much too often but it still makes for an interesting read.. (i think)
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: jugdish on October 10, 2006, 10:07:39 AM
I really like the first theory about the magnets.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 10, 2006, 10:52:19 AM
I really like the first theory about the magnets.

thanks jug.. from you thats high praise..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on October 10, 2006, 12:48:51 PM
dont  they use symbols like the knife and fork  in training chimps and other primates too

it seems that they would begin to recognize they symbols as something related to food  but not as an actual knife and fork
kind of an international symbol of food

not sure why they would do tha tbut  it is just a thought as to why they are painted on the button

;D
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Evilrabbit on October 10, 2006, 05:24:46 PM
hehe maybe the next test makes them actually try to USE a knife and fork!!  ;D

Maybe they're trying to make the bears smarter so they can be the others' butlers, and set the table for their meals. They used polar bears because the white fur looks better against the black-and-white tuxedo than brown fur. That's why Juliet burned her muffins, because the bears didn't show up to set the table, so she knew the book club would have nothing to eat the muffins with, so she just let them burn.

Seriously, though, I do think the Dharma research is intended to make the bears smarter as well as resistant to the warm climate, and the food setup is to test which treatments work best. That means there must be alot more bears than we've seen, because I think you'd need alot of treatments and at least two bears for each. The purpose of this experiment? Maybe once they figure out what works on bears they'll do the same on humans and create the evil genius army.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 10, 2006, 05:46:31 PM
Also, remember that these bears aren't just your average Jungle Polar Bears. They didn't just pull them from the ocean before stuffing them in the cage. They first trained them to understand that the fork/knife meant dinner and that "Warning" meant zap. So they knew that they need to get dinner.

You get hungry bears together, and they'll eventually get what they need. Just go to any Maine campsite.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 11, 2006, 03:40:07 AM
Also, remember that these bears aren't just your average Jungle Polar Bears. They didn't just pull them from the ocean before stuffing them in the cage. They first trained them to understand that the fork/knife meant dinner and that "Warning" meant zap. So they knew that they need to get dinner.

You get hungry bears together, and they'll eventually get what they need. Just go to any Maine campsite.

yeah i guess i just assumed that there would have been previous work on the bears before sawyers cage.. like the cage we see is one stage in a long line of tests...

maybe at the end they get their graduate diploma
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Sweet Old Lady on October 11, 2006, 03:53:04 AM
The way the bear cage experiment is set up suggests that in order to get the food the two (or more) bears have to cooperate with each other.  Watch again to see how Sawyer managed to get his fish biscuit.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 11, 2006, 03:57:26 AM
to what purpose.... are polar bears pack animals?? i dont think so.. maybe that is what is meant by de-terratorialisation.. teaching them to relax and get along..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Dave on October 11, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
Given that we have seen two of the most agressive/powerful creatures on earth used by DI (polar bears and sharks), I'm thinking that perhaps DI was working to develop true biological weapons/security systems. Given Hanso's weapons trading past, it kinda makes sense. Imagine being able to sell (smart!) polar bears to jungle warlords to patrol their compounds!
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 11, 2006, 10:56:27 AM
maybe the true goal is domestication.. with their eventual application as humungous gaurd dogs
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: LostGirlDeb on October 11, 2006, 12:40:02 PM
Nice one! I went to comment but it wouldn't let me...?

yeah i stopped going there.. the site is pretty unstable.. keeps crashing, my theories' ratings got wiped along with a hundred others.. and there you go, here i am

Well, I'm glad in a way as we get the benefit of your opinions and not them!  

heres the other two (remaining) theories that are on that site if youre interested..
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/oct/03/magnet-and-valenzetti-and-othe/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/oct/03/magnet-and-valenzetti-and-othe/)
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/15/danielle-and-disease/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/15/danielle-and-disease/)

alot of its probably been rehashed here much too often but it still makes for an interesting read.. (i think)


GREAT THEORIES!!
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 11, 2006, 12:42:09 PM
Nice one! I went to comment but it wouldn't let me...?

yeah i stopped going there.. the site is pretty unstable.. keeps crashing, my theories' ratings got wiped along with a hundred others.. and there you go, here i am

Well, I'm glad in a way as we get the benefit of your opinions and not them!  

heres the other two (remaining) theories that are on that site if youre interested..
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/oct/03/magnet-and-valenzetti-and-othe/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/oct/03/magnet-and-valenzetti-and-othe/)
http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/15/danielle-and-disease/ (http://www.lost-theories.com/theories/2006/sep/15/danielle-and-disease/)

alot of its probably been rehashed here much too often but it still makes for an interesting read.. (i think)


GREAT THEORIES!!

im glad i shared em now.. ive been getting great feedback.. hopefully i will have the chance to write some in the upcoming ep sections..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 11, 2006, 04:12:35 PM
to what purpose.... are polar bears pack animals?? i dont think so.. maybe that is what is meant by de-terratorialisation.. teaching them to relax and get along..
As far as I know, Polar bears are extraordinarily solitary animals. Putting two together would normally cause huge fights. However, if they had to work together to get their food...

Good thoughts here!
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on October 15, 2006, 01:07:08 AM
don't they keep polar bears togethers in zoos

you are right about them being solitary  in the wild
but like any bear they will be around each other if the food supply allows it ( trash dumps campgrounds salmon runs etc )

but they don't work together to achieve goals ( that i know of anyway ) so if they had to do so to get the food they could smell ( it has been shown they can smell what is inside a can by the minute traces left from the canning process)
that would be a huge step i think
to what ends  i think we will need a Dharma backstory  to say for sure
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 15, 2006, 10:15:45 PM
I agree... I don't know how they got the bears to cooperate, but I suppose they could train them...

HOWEVER, Tom said that it took the bears 2 hours to figure it out, which suggests without outside help.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on October 15, 2006, 10:29:32 PM
what good would the conditioning training be if they had outside help

???
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 15, 2006, 10:47:22 PM
good point... I don't know how it only took them two hours...
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 16, 2006, 10:45:30 AM
it wasnt their first test... it was one in a series..

that would explain their adaptability.. and their familiarity with buttons/switches and icons..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on October 16, 2006, 05:05:51 PM
Maybe they were already taught to recognise knives and forks at that stage then?  
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 16, 2006, 07:23:59 PM
Probably they already knew most of those switches and also the warning sound. Also, they probably knew the fanfare meant they succeeded.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 16, 2006, 07:56:41 PM
the test would be fatally difficult if it was the first one, used on initiate bears..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 16, 2006, 11:10:20 PM
I don't think fatally... But they would definately take much longer than two hours.

If you mean the shock, it wasn't powerful enough to hurt the bears as much as it did Sawyer.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 18, 2006, 05:54:14 AM
i would say it would be fatal actually.. buttons? if you put a polar bear in a room and closed the door without locking it.. it would die.. it wouldnt be able to figure out to turn the knob...
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on October 18, 2006, 06:58:24 PM
Are you sure about that? I think a bear would be able to figure it out... Cats and dogs can.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on October 18, 2006, 10:36:45 PM
only if it had some association the patterns of human devices.. how would it associate pressing buttons to trigger food?? doesnt make sense.. on top of that the shocking device would deter repeated attempts..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Zeke on October 31, 2006, 05:05:24 AM
What a time for sport psychology to step up (this theory has nothing to do with sport though :S lol The Operant Conditioning Theory was proposed by a psychologist called Skinner. Now this guy did some work with rats (rat lovers my not like this so much) and he put a rat in a box with a lever and an electrical grid on the floor. Now that had to pull the lever in order to get the food and if he did something wrong then it would recieve and electrical shock (like sawyer). 

this is a picture of the skinner experiment but i think that sawyers cage was a more complicated version of this. The idea behind the box is that the rat/polar bear would learn on how to get the food without being punished (electric shock) and therefore conditioning the rat/polar bear.
(http://iws2.ccccd.edu/lipscomb/16_week_course/images/Skinner_Box.jpg)

Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PrincessLeia on October 31, 2006, 04:24:50 PM
What a time for sport psychology to step up (this theory has nothing to do with sport though :S lol The Operant Conditioning Theory was proposed by a psychologist called Skinner. Now this guy did some work with rats (rat lovers my not like this so much) and he put a rat in a box with a lever and an electrical grid on the floor. Now that had to pull the lever in order to get the food and if he did something wrong then it would recieve and electrical shock (like sawyer). 

this is a picture of the skinner experiment but i think that sawyers cage was a more complicated version of this. The idea behind the box is that the rat/polar bear would learn on how to get the food without being punished (electric shock) and therefore conditioning the rat/polar bear.
(http://iws2.ccccd.edu/lipscomb/16_week_course/images/Skinner_Box.jpg)



this was really my 1st thought when I saw the cage with the buttons, etc.  I'm surprised it hasn't come up before now(, but I haven't taken the time to read all of the millions of other posts, so maybe it has.  :))
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Zeke on October 31, 2006, 06:03:37 PM
I didn't bother either Leia, id just learnt about it in Sports Psychology yesterday so i thought i may as well put my new found knowledge to the test :D
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Michelle13 on October 31, 2006, 10:03:16 PM
I gotta give props to a buddy that goes by the name Desmond8MyPopRocks. She started the skinner box conversation in another thread, just don't know where it's at to lead ya there. It was quite a long explanation of it all. Good posting tho!!!
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on November 06, 2006, 09:11:54 AM
ive been hearing the words skinner box since the first ep of season three over and over again.. i agree, the first thing i thought of when i saw sawyer pressing those buttons i thought of that movie.. secret of nimh with the smart rats..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on November 19, 2006, 02:00:54 PM
we have been talking about Lost being a skinner box  type experimant sence i started posting here

but it always helps to have  the visual  ;)
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: jugdish on November 19, 2006, 10:27:21 PM
Don't think it is a skinner box, something to throw us off the track.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PrincessLeia on November 19, 2006, 11:40:57 PM
the whole island or the cage, Jugdish?

Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on November 20, 2006, 10:56:20 AM
there is no spoon..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PrincessLeia on November 20, 2006, 04:17:11 PM
spoon  ???

Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: JBRam on November 20, 2006, 06:20:50 PM
Matrix.
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PrincessLeia on November 20, 2006, 07:31:02 PM
sorry, guys.  I know the spoon on the Matrix, but I'm still not getting the point.  ???  lol  Am I totally dense or what?  Help me out...throw me a bone! 
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: demra on November 21, 2006, 01:12:05 AM
matrix spoon = island  skinner box
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PrincessLeia on November 21, 2006, 03:27:31 AM
alrighty then...apparently I need to go back & watch the Matrix again.  lol

Please carry on without me.  I'll try to catch up later.   :-[
 :)
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on November 21, 2006, 05:10:44 AM
i was just trying to be random.. sorry to confuse, yes demra understood me..
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: PrincessLeia on November 21, 2006, 05:12:03 AM
ok...ok...you don't have to patronize me.  lol  ;)
Title: Re: Clever Bears (?) and their cages...
Post by: Jordanoth on November 21, 2006, 05:13:05 AM
im too young to be able to patronise people.. so i dont :)