Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 2 => Episode 2x23 => Topic started by: Zeke on May 29, 2006, 12:49:41 PM

Title: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: Zeke on May 29, 2006, 12:49:41 PM
If Kelvin was out fixing Desmonds boat everytime he went out "exploring" then how did he know where each of the hatches were etc. Also Kelvin was going out without tools (or so we presume) so how was he putting the boat back together on his own. I think Kelvin was in with the "others" and was setting Desmond up. The obvious question that springs to mind is that why is he building the boat if hes an "other" and my answer is that he wanted Desmond to find the boat (he said it himself..."I wandered if you had the stones to follow me" so he obviously wanted/expected him to) to make desmond see/feel as if they were in a snow globe. Kelvin (at least i expect) fixed the compass he could have rigged it so he went round in a wide circle and eventually found the island again. Or at least thats what i think.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Goldmund on May 29, 2006, 02:04:32 PM
I was wondering the same thing. First of all, how did kelvin get the boat in that little bay if it was in such bad condition? I bet the others little tug boat thing could have done the job. Kelvin also obviously knew Des was following him there, so why would he lead Des to his boat? Another thing is we know Kelvin is a trained military guy, are we suppose to believe Des could take him out so easily? Even if it was a supposed accident. It seems like Kelvin was just leading him on the whole time.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: NoraCharles on May 29, 2006, 02:24:24 PM
I'm on the fence about this one myself. (whether Kelvin is/was with the Others or not)

Kelvin could be one of the others, but if he was, why did the Others leave the boat for Desmond to find once he got the Losties to take over pushing the button? It was 44 days, since the plane crashed (and he killed Kelvin) until they finally got into the hatch to meet Desmond. You'd think the Others would have moved the boat to their top secret location.

Desmond was military trained too, so I don't see him as an underdog with his fight with Kelvin.

As for Kelvin 'fixing up the boat', odd that it took him 3 years to do so - wasn't that the amount of time he and Desmond were together? (or was it 2 years? anyway, that's a long time to work on a boat, no?)

Kelvin's "Goodbye" was what triggered Desmond to follow him on that day, so he could have been leading Desmond, but why? Just to get him away from the hatch to crash a plane? I don't get that.

Like I said, LOL, I'm still on the fence about this one.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on May 29, 2006, 03:32:02 PM
Desmond was on the island three years you were right Nora. :)
Okay Kelvin did bow and make a sarcastic commnet about he he works for the almighty Dharma,like he's not pleased at a about workinf for them. I'd like to know why he left CIA Ops to work for Dharma and/or was there some other job in between..
but from what Kelvin said Rudinsky did most ofthe drawings on the map blast ddoor.And odd after three years he never showed them to Desmond.
Kelvin referred toThe Others as hostiles. Why? he told Desmond so little why even tel him this?Desmond showed he was a good follower and wasn't going to leave The Hatch.Did Kelvin have a falling out wit the others or did he really consider them hostile?
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: demra on May 30, 2006, 02:25:25 AM
I'd like to know why he left CIA Ops to work for Dharma and/or was there some other job in between..

 according to Kelvin " Because people followed my orders "
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: AmazonMonkey on May 30, 2006, 08:52:16 AM
I'd like to know why he left CIA Ops to work for Dharma and/or was there some other job in between..

 according to Kelvin " Because people followed my orders "


After your a spook and you 'retire', what else is there but a job that will make you disspear?
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: BlackrockBob on May 30, 2006, 09:30:54 AM
Personally, I think the others are Dharma/Hanso. They appear to be scientists and they are on the island, it does seem to fit.

I think Kelvin either works for Dharma/Hanso or a counter group.
The others (Fenry/Mr. Friendly, etc) might be a counter group.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Bones on May 30, 2006, 10:03:15 AM
Personally, I think the others are Dharma/Hanso. They appear to be scientists and they are on the island, it does seem to fit.

I think Kelvin either works for Dharma/Hanso or a counter group.
The others (Fenry/Mr. Friendly, etc) might be a counter group.


This is the big question.  Are the others and hanso/dharma/widmore related?  Could be different story lines coming together or could be one big evil group.  I am beginning to agree with you black rock; I think that they are separate groups but like all other personal speculation...who knows?
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: demra on May 30, 2006, 12:16:03 PM
I'd like to know why he left CIA Ops to work for Dharma and/or was there some other job in between..

 according to Kelvin " Because people followed my orders "


After your a spook and you 'retire', what else is there but a job that will make you disspear?

Right on
Dharma recruiter " Mr Kelvin how does spending a year or so on a nice tropical island sound . Lots of sun and surf , allthe mac and cheese you can eat and a nice air conditioned house in the shady trees not far from the beach , does that sound good Mr Kelvin ? "
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: jugdish on May 30, 2006, 12:21:49 PM
HE said that he was recruited by dharma to work on craphole island. The job just sucked!
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Bones on May 30, 2006, 12:44:10 PM
HE said that he was recruited by dharma to work on craphole island. The job just sucked!

I don't know about that!  All the mac and cheese you can eat!
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: jugdish on May 30, 2006, 11:20:27 PM
The mac and cheese was a bonus.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: validkeys on May 30, 2006, 11:50:55 PM
If you think about 'the list' that the others made for Michael. It was obviously the big troublemakers less Hurley who they sent back like the wounded sheep he always is. Pre-Lostie landing on craphole Isle, experiments lasted roughly 8 weeks. The losties have been on the Island for roughly 8 weeks. What if the experiment is being hindered by the troublemakers (walt, michael, sawyer, jack and kate?) These guys obviously do not accept their position on the Island. With the experiments in the hatches appearing to be regarding the length of time people will accept something because they are told to, and the trouble makers seemingly not accepting their circumstances, perhaps they are moving these people out. Which brings me to my point. Des was on the Island for 3 years doing exactly as he was told without asking many quesitons. perhaps they wanted him off the Island. His experiment was done...but he wouldnt leave, so they lead him to his boat to get him out of there. Des accepted his station on the Island where Kate, Jack etc.. are not Therefore, Kelvin works alongside 'the hostels'
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: WhatThe on May 31, 2006, 02:32:35 AM
If you think about 'the list' that the others made for Michael. It was obviously the big troublemakers less Hurley who they sent back like the wounded sheep he always is. Pre-Lostie landing on craphole Isle, experiments lasted roughly 8 weeks. The losties have been on the Island for roughly 8 weeks. What if the experiment is being hindered by the troublemakers (walt, michael, sawyer, jack and kate?) These guys obviously do not accept their position on the Island.

What, exactly, are Michael, Sawyer, Jack and Kate's positions on the island? What is it they were supposed to be doing that they're not doing?


Quote
With the experiments in the hatches appearing to be regarding the length of time people will accept something because they are told to, and the trouble makers seemingly not accepting their circumstances, perhaps they are moving these people out. Which brings me to my point. Des was on the Island for 3 years doing exactly as he was told without asking many quesitons. perhaps they wanted him off the Island. His experiment was done...but he wouldnt leave, so they lead him to his boat to get him out of there. Des accepted his station on the Island where Kate, Jack etc.. are not Therefore, Kelvin works alongside 'the hostels'

Your logic lost steam there. Desmond wanted out of the hatch in the worst way, but was ordered to stay inside. If they wanted him off the island they would have done what they did with Micheal: provided him his boat and directions on how to make it back to civilization. Not to mention that nobody from Dharma or Hanso or ANYONE has come by to tell them what they SHOULD be doing. So it's not like Kate, Jack and Sawyer purposefully decided not to follow orders or stay in their place.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: demra on May 31, 2006, 02:36:46 AM
I would agree with WhatThe you theory is a very leaky bucket
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on May 31, 2006, 09:24:16 PM
Sawyer never pushed the buttons.kate did I thin konce but wouldn't swear by it. Whay not take Sayid he's a troublemaker or .....would he recognize Kelvin.....and howwould they know that?
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: LovinLost on June 02, 2006, 07:52:57 PM
It is obvious by Kelvin's statement that after he left the miltary he joined the Dharma Project, so we can assume he was working for Dharma.  His comment about the Others being "hostiles" may indicate (1) that the Others are NOT of part of the Dharma project or (2) they are a totally separate group of people we do not even know about yet or (3) the Others are now called Hostiles because they once worked for Dharma but after the incident turned against the program and now believe themselves to be the good guys trying to save everyone else from the horrendous results of the Dharma experiments/incident. 
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: goober on June 02, 2006, 08:16:18 PM
It is obvious by Kelvin's statement that after he left the miltary he joined the Dharma Project, so we can assume he was working for Dharma.  His comment about the Others being "hostiles" may indicate (1) that the Others are NOT of part of the Dharma project or (2) they are a totally separate group of people we do not even know about yet or (3) the Others are now called Hostiles because they once worked for Dharma but after the incident turned against the program and now believe themselves to be the good guys trying to save everyone else from the horrendous results of the Dharma experiments/incident. 

YES! I still stick by my hypothesis that the "Others" were once Dharma-ites that defected or broke off from the original group. However, there do not appear to be any "Bad-Guys" left on the island.... Hmmm. I guess that Kelvin was the only one left and needed to be replaced, so Desmond was "sent" (or got "sucked in"). Perchance that is why the 815 survivors were brought onto the Island in the first place. To replace Desmond. Desmond had been at it for a bit over Three years. Anybody know how long Kelvin was at it by himself?   :-\
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on June 04, 2006, 10:32:20 PM
Almost 44 days, season one ended at 44 days. Season two total for both season was 63 days.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on June 04, 2006, 10:33:26 PM
Any way we can mere this topicon kelvin with the other two on him, kelvin the smoker and I think third one was called Is kelvins still alive as all same themes.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: demra on June 07, 2006, 12:24:10 PM
It is obvious by Kelvin's statement that after he left the miltary he joined the Dharma Project, so we can assume he was working for Dharma.  His comment about the Others being "hostiles" may indicate (1) that the Others are NOT of part of the Dharma project or (2) they are a totally separate group of people we do not even know about yet or (3) the Others are now called Hostiles because they once worked for Dharma but after the incident turned against the program and now believe themselves to be the good guys trying to save everyone else from the horrendous results of the Dharma experiments/incident. 

you forgot one that makes total sense Dharma just told Kelvin that the other people were hostile so he would not explore to much around the island

loud POP as your baloon bursts
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Zeke on June 08, 2006, 04:40:45 PM
Kelvin maybe working for dharma (in which the others are part of, stay with me i have a theory) and part of what the experiment is to see what a complete stranger (desmond) does when put on the spot. So, along comes desmond (the perfect guinea pig for dhamra). Kelvin is told to firstly tell Desmond the fate of the world is in his hands (pushing the button), secondly tell Desmond there are "hostiles" on the island (put some fear into him...hostiles are the scientists of dharma IMHO) then make him find out theres a boat on the island (i think kelvins dead from this but he wasnt meant to). Now dhamra have a perfect experiment, does desmond a) stay there pushing the button every 108 minutes, b) try and get help from sed "hostiles" or c) run and hope kelvin was bluffing.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: AmazonMonkey on June 08, 2006, 04:50:30 PM
Kelvin maybe working for dharma (in which the others are part of, stay with me i have a theory) and part of what the experiment is to see what a complete stranger (desmond) does when put on the spot. So, along comes desmond (the perfect guinea pig for dhamra). Kelvin is told to firstly tell Desmond the fate of the world is in his hands (pushing the button), secondly tell Desmond there are "hostiles" on the island (put some fear into him...hostiles are the scientists of dharma IMHO) then make him find out theres a boat on the island (i think kelvins dead from this but he wasnt meant to). Now dhamra have a perfect experiment, does desmond a) stay there pushing the button every 108 minutes, b) try and get help from sed "hostiles" or c) run and hope kelvin was bluffing.

And since he is trying to regain his honor and get back Penny... OF COURSE he is going to save the world and keep pushing the button... because he needs to a) save the world so he can get back Penny, and b) come back a healed man who regained his honor.   Its the ulimate catch 22, and after what he is been through his conviction is the button.   NOW were they setting him up specifically?  Because if this theory is true and I like it... he is not a very good control group becuase of his deperation and love leading him.   Take someone else, like Charlie... put the button and the heroine on the island and eventually he will probably get all DarthCharlie F the button and take the H... so really they got the cream off the top when they found Desmond... BUT then again he did run once he thought the computer was broken.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: jugdish on June 09, 2006, 10:58:42 AM
Because if you don't push the button bad sht happens.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on June 09, 2006, 12:29:51 PM
Quote
DarthCharlie
yes Amazon Monkey :) :) another Darth Vader charlie believer.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: demra on June 10, 2006, 12:13:50 PM
Ok first  off i still think Kelvin is dead  that being said
He did say he was working for Dharma so lets just take that as fact for this post 

ok  now   he is told when he is first posted to the Swan that the Island is infected so he need to wear the suit and that there are hostiles  ( native's ?  , would help explain the costumes ) so he believes what he is told  then starts to slowly learn the truth from Radzinsky and by the time Desmond shows up he just wants off the island but still believes that the button does need to be pushed so he trains Desmond  keeping up the original lies about the Hostiles and the Infection to aid him in keeping Des in the hatch so he can fix the boat and get off the island   
then Des spots the rip in the suit and follows Kelvin confronts him and bop's his head accidently on the rocks and kills him

so to sum up it flows in makes sence and it follows the evidence we have with only a few assumptions



ok  Bash away  ;D
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: scrod on June 10, 2006, 02:17:27 PM
So I guess we need to step further back and ask - How did Radzinski get to know so much?  What made him curious about finding other installation?

Otherwise, I can't disagree with anything you wrote. 
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: demra on June 10, 2006, 05:18:26 PM
scrod my friend  i think you have made a good point  What did make Radzinsky curious about the rest of the island
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma
Post by: Pandora on June 10, 2006, 06:34:27 PM
The title of this thread always confused me.  :)  Kelvin very clearly works for DHARMA, he even said so in Desmond's flashback, and that's why he knows the snowman password, and wears a DHARMA jumpsuit.

After reading it, I think what is meant is that "Kelvin must be a DHARMA insider who knows more than he's saying" or "Kelvin is in league with the Others"?  In other words, that he was more than just a lowly button pusher who didn't know anything about the big picture, as he claimed to Desmond.  Going to just edit the title, ok. :)  Zeke, if I'm misinterpreting your meaning, just let me know, ok...
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on June 10, 2006, 10:19:38 PM
Ths one of three topics on Kelvin hence confusion on topic title, I think.
Okay Demra, Kelvin also told Desmond -the only thing he really told him- was about the fail safe key. So Kelvin  did believe that much.But by his to me Kelvin had no more use of as he put it the almighty  Dharma.
But as for Radinsky, maybe  he also figured out there was nothing wrong with the island and went exploring while Kelvin pushed the button. Maybe he told Kelvin everything he learned.
Or after awhile they took turns exploring the island.
 But what still puzzles me with Radinsky and Kelvin both there,why on  blast door map does it say only 108 minutes to get to Arrow Hatch. It implies one can't make it there and back. But what if some one else is there to push the button?
Was there a time before Kelvin arrived? OR was it a warning for whomever went to the Arrow hatch, they would have to get back in time before the 108 mintues were up,or did they know someone was  there to push it?
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: scrod on June 10, 2006, 11:24:58 PM
Kelvin worked for Dharma, I guess the question is how much did he learn from 'legitimate' means and how much did he learn from snooping around?  Certainly the Pearl hatch was a good hike away, as was the staff.  There would likely be some way to have pre-knowledge of other hatches, woudl be very difficult (dangerous) to wander aimlessly just looking to see what is out there. 

If he was that good a spook and had time on his hands, perhaps he knew even more about where the hostiles went and what they did than was put on the map.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on June 11, 2006, 01:38:03 AM
But it was Radinsky as far as we know who did most of the exploring, mapping.Kelvin pickd up the mantle so to speak.pearlwasn'ttaht far , twas the Arrow that was the farthest. But he did know  a lot more than he ever told Desmond.I am in the he's dead group,but would love to know his back story.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: demra on June 11, 2006, 02:11:19 AM
Ths one of three topics on Kelvin hence confusion on topic title, I think.
Okay Demra, Kelvin also told Desmond -the only thing he really told him- was about the fail safe key. So Kelvin  did believe that much.But by his to me Kelvin had no more use of as he put it the almighty  Dharma.
But as for Radinsky, maybe  he also figured out there was nothing wrong with the island and went exploring while Kelvin pushed the button. Maybe he told Kelvin everything he learned.
Or after awhile they took turns exploring the island.
 But what still puzzles me with Radinsky and Kelvin both there,why on  blast door map does it say only 108 minutes to get to Arrow Hatch. It implies one can't make it there and back. But what if some one else is there to push the button?
Was there a time before Kelvin arrived? OR was it a warning for whomever went to the Arrow hatch, they would have to get back in time before the 108 mintues were up,or did they know someone was  there to push it?

If it takes 108 min to get to the arrow ther would have to be someone at the hatch to push the button  and it was probably a warning to anyone who would try it alone that it could  not be done  alone

there are a umber of reasons that Radzinsky could have gotten corious abot the rest of the island  maybe he found the camears  or ripped his suit while outside or even captured a hostile

and we still can't be sure just how much Kelvin really told Desmond  remember our losties don't share info very freely  maybe no one has asked the right questions yet
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: jugdish on June 13, 2006, 12:07:37 AM
Pure boredom would make one curious of the island.
Title: Re: Kelvins must work for dharma (as an insider)
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on July 06, 2006, 01:46:57 PM
guess they aren't bored enough yet