Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x16 => Topic started by: relient k on May 24, 2010, 05:27:37 PM

Title: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: relient k on May 24, 2010, 05:27:37 PM
So, let me get this straight, Hurley is the new Jacob, Desmond and Ben are his assistants, Sawyer, Kate, Lapidus, Claire, Miles, and Richard either crashed, or landed safely and lived out there lives.

The alternate time line is after they all died, and them getting together/getting ready for the moving on to the afterlife?

Sound right?

BTW- LOVED the finale, quite the Titanic ending. Really Bitter sweet.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 24, 2010, 05:29:52 PM
Yep. You got it.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: Maxor127 on May 24, 2010, 05:33:27 PM
Here's a new thought... so Boone and Charlie and Ana Lucia and anyone who died over the course of the show and appeared as ghosts (especially to Hurley) and probably weren't the MIB, how come they were aware of everything when they appeared as ghosts, and then in the sideways, they're suddenly unaware of everything and are sucked into the illusion?
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostlady on May 24, 2010, 05:42:25 PM
In the sideways they don't know they are dead. Then they are 'awakened' and realize everything. I am guessing when they are dead there is a part of them that knows they are dead (their spirit) and that who is appearing to Hurley and others?
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostfan777 on May 25, 2010, 11:52:08 AM
Here's a new thought... so Boone and Charlie and Ana Lucia and anyone who died over the course of the show and appeared as ghosts (especially to Hurley) and probably weren't the MIB, how come they were aware of everything when they appeared as ghosts, and then in the sideways, they're suddenly unaware of everything and are sucked into the illusion?

I took it to mean that the ATL is their LAST stop before moving on for good.  In other words, Charlie (for example) dies for real on the island.  His spirit/ghost remains so that he can appear to Hurley and do what he needs to do.  He is aware because he hasn't moved on to the ATL yet.  Eventually, he does move on to the ATL/purgatory/waiting life, where he no longer remembers the events of his life until everyone has gathered and he is awakened again, ready to let go and move on one last time.  Christian said the most important part of their lives was the time they spent together, which is why they need to 'live' in the ATL until everyone has passed over.  The folks missing from this group, the ones who are not ready, are still waiting for those that were most important in their own lives.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: sonofsuns34 on May 25, 2010, 12:14:57 PM
I really want to see the Adventures of Hurley and Ben!!!
I am glad they left things up to our imagination and didn't wrap up every little plot point.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostlady on May 25, 2010, 01:40:57 PM
Here's a new thought... so Boone and Charlie and Ana Lucia and anyone who died over the course of the show and appeared as ghosts (especially to Hurley) and probably weren't the MIB, how come they were aware of everything when they appeared as ghosts, and then in the sideways, they're suddenly unaware of everything and are sucked into the illusion?

I took it to mean that the ATL is their LAST stop before moving on for good.  In other words, Charlie (for example) dies for real on the island.  His spirit/ghost remains so that he can appear to Hurley and do what he needs to do.  He is aware because he hasn't moved on to the ATL yet.  Eventually, he does move on to the ATL/purgatory/waiting life, where he no longer remembers the events of his life until everyone has gathered and he is awakened again, ready to let go and move on one last time.  Christian said the most important part of their lives was the time they spent together, which is why they need to 'live' in the ATL until everyone has passed over.  The folks missing from this group, the ones who are not ready, are still waiting for those that were most important in their own lives.

That is a great theory and explains  why Ana Lucia didn't remember Hurley when she was in the Alt. She wasn't ready yet. When Hurley got stopped by her in season 4 she was a ghost and did remember him. Thanks!
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostfan777 on May 25, 2010, 02:22:52 PM
Here's a new thought... so Boone and Charlie and Ana Lucia and anyone who died over the course of the show and appeared as ghosts (especially to Hurley) and probably weren't the MIB, how come they were aware of everything when they appeared as ghosts, and then in the sideways, they're suddenly unaware of everything and are sucked into the illusion?

I took it to mean that the ATL is their LAST stop before moving on for good.  In other words, Charlie (for example) dies for real on the island.  His spirit/ghost remains so that he can appear to Hurley and do what he needs to do.  He is aware because he hasn't moved on to the ATL yet.  Eventually, he does move on to the ATL/purgatory/waiting life, where he no longer remembers the events of his life until everyone has gathered and he is awakened again, ready to let go and move on one last time.  Christian said the most important part of their lives was the time they spent together, which is why they need to 'live' in the ATL until everyone has passed over.  The folks missing from this group, the ones who are not ready, are still waiting for those that were most important in their own lives.

That is a great theory and explains  why Ana Lucia didn't remember Hurley when she was in the Alt. She wasn't ready yet. When Hurley got stopped by her in season 4 she was a ghost and did remember him. Thanks!

This is a perfect example of a small detail that, if they tried to explain it in the show, would have been tedious to watch.  I actually winced when Hurley asked Michael, "So the whispers are dead people who can't move on?".  This isn't "Blue's Clues", folks, sometimes it's better if they leave some things to our imagination.  We may have different opinions about what we see, but at least we're using our brains.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: RM on May 25, 2010, 03:35:39 PM
So, let me get this straight, Hurley is the new Jacob, Desmond and Ben are his assistants, Sawyer, Kate, Lapidus, Claire, Miles, and Richard either crashed, or landed safely and lived out there lives.

Ajira plane -- (Lapidus, Sawyer, Kate, Claire, aging Richard, Miles) arrive in Guam with lots of explaining to do. [But Penny's out there and Ben has his off-Island network to help with some cover story, I guess.  Explaining Claire and Sawyer being alive, after the original cover story said they were dead, is a problem.  Explaining what happened to everyone else on Ajira 316 is a problem.  Explaining Richard and Miles, who weren't on 815 or 316, is a problem.]

Jack -- dead; (is/isn't a Smoke Monster?)

Hurley -- the new Jacob.

Ben -- given eternal life to be the new Richard?  or just gets to be the once-and-future leader of the Others?

Desmond -- alive non-Smokey; Hurley will let him return to the real world (on the Elizabeth?) and live happily ever after with Penny and son Charlie.

Bernard, Rose and Vincent -- "retired" on the Island.

Aaron -- raised by his grandmother, reunited with Claire.

Ji Yeon -- orphaned, raised by his grandmother.

Walt -- grows up off-Island (special?)

Cindy, Zack, Emma -- did any of the residual Others survive out in the woods, or did MIB kill them all?

?Any leftover people from Widmore's sub?

Eloise -- still alive in L.A. at the LampPost.

------

Am I forgetting anybody?

Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostlady on May 25, 2010, 03:41:35 PM
So, let me get this straight, Hurley is the new Jacob, Desmond and Ben are his assistants, Sawyer, Kate, Lapidus, Claire, Miles, and Richard either crashed, or landed safely and lived out there lives.

Ajira plane -- (Lapidus, Sawyer, Kate, Claire, aging Richard, Miles) arrive in Guam with lots of explaining to do. [But Penny's out there and Ben has his off-Island network to help with some cover story, I guess.  Explaining Claire and Sawyer being alive, after the original cover story said they were dead, is a problem.  Explaining what happened to everyone else on Ajira 316 is a problem.  Explaining Richard and Miles, who weren't on 815 or 316, is a problem.]

Jack -- dead; (is/isn't a Smoke Monster?)

Hurley -- the new Jacob.

Ben -- given eternal life to be the new Richard?  or just gets to be the once-and-future leader of the Others?

Desmond -- alive non-Smokey; Hurley will let him return to the real world (on the Elizabeth?) and live happily ever after with Penny and son Charlie.

Bernard, Rose and Vincent -- "retired" on the Island.

Aaron -- raised by his grandmother, reunited with Claire.

Ji Yeon -- orphaned, raised by his grandmother.

Walt -- grows up off-Island (special?)

Cindy, Zack, Emma -- did any of the residual Others survive out in the woods, or did MIB kill them all?

?Any leftover people from Widmore's sub?

Eloise -- still alive in L.A. at the LampPost.

------

Am I forgetting anybody?



Other than Daniel and Charlotte still in the Alt world--I think you got everybody!
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: jamesl on May 25, 2010, 04:09:30 PM
So, let me get this straight, Hurley is the new Jacob, Desmond and Ben are his assistants...


Hurley changed the rules and somehow sent Desmond home to be with his family where he lived happily ever after
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: nomteticus on May 26, 2010, 11:29:00 PM
It's actually quite sad that nobody cared for the 815 children that were with Cindy. They were children, for Christ's sake! Hero-Jack didn't give a s**t about them when he staged the coup planned by Sawyer, ditching them and leaving them to be bombed by Widmore. Flocke of all people was nicer to the kids then all our "beloved" losties. How can you not care if children live or die and still be the good guy?
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostlady on May 27, 2010, 09:10:10 AM
If they weren't killed by Widmore's bombs then you know Hurley got them safely off the island. He's one of the good guys for sure!
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 27, 2010, 10:56:36 AM
It's actually quite sad that nobody cared for the 815 children that were with Cindy. They were children, for Christ's sake! Hero-Jack didn't give a s**t about them when he staged the coup planned by Sawyer, ditching them and leaving them to be bombed by Widmore. Flocke of all people was nicer to the kids then all our "beloved" losties. How can you not care if children live or die and still be the good guy?

OMG. Still? Jack was resposible from saving all humanity. Including the children. MiB was nice to the people that served him purpose. Please stop with this drivel about MiB being better than Jack. The Kids weren't on the beach that got bombed. They probably went rushing back into the forest to await a new leader. When Hurley stepped up he probably gave them a choice, but they probably chose to stay because their parents had been killed, and they were closer to Cindy than anyone else. They probably spawned a new batch of Others to help Hurley out.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: Madam P on May 28, 2010, 06:35:35 PM
It's actually quite sad that nobody cared for the 815 children that were with Cindy. They were children, for Christ's sake! Hero-Jack didn't give a s**t about them when he staged the coup planned by Sawyer, ditching them and leaving them to be bombed by Widmore. Flocke of all people was nicer to the kids then all our "beloved" losties. How can you not care if children live or die and still be the good guy?

OMG. Still? Jack was resposible from saving all humanity. Including the children. MiB was nice to the people that served him purpose. Please stop with this drivel about MiB being better than Jack. The Kids weren't on the beach that got bombed. They probably went rushing back into the forest to await a new leader. When Hurley stepped up he probably gave them a choice, but they probably chose to stay because their parents had been killed, and they were closer to Cindy than anyone else. They probably spawned a new batch of Others to help Hurley out.

I think Nomteticus has a good point -- I also thought it was really odd of Jack (well, all of them actually) to seemingly not care about the kids.  And it is a fact shown on the show that Flocke/MIB was nice to the kids.  I agree that MIB was very practical and focused on his purpose, but if people weren't getting in his way, he left them alone.  He left Rose and Bernard alone, and it seems like he was prepared to leave Cindy and the kids alone.  It would make sense that he had a soft spot for orphaned children.  He told them to stick with him because he was certain he was going to win, and he perhaps didn't want them in the other camp in case he had to "go Smokey" and would be unable to winnow out the innocents, like when he "cleansed the Temple."

And as we have debated before, I still think it's stretching it to say Jack saved all of humanity.  We still don't know what that darned light was, or what it would do. 

Your "probablys" are good thoughts.  I hope they're right -- Rose and Bernard could become adoptive grandparents then maybe.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: CaseyMac on May 28, 2010, 07:18:54 PM
If the kids had stayed behind in the Temple, they would have been killed by MIB along with everyone else. MIB didn't care about anyone that followed along with him. He was completely self centered in his desire to leave the Island. I mean he pulled the whole, "Oh I'm sorry Ben, I forgot to tell you the island would be at the bottom of the ocean when I promised it to you."

Thats what made MIB the villian, to manipulate or destroy anything that got in his way to reach his goal of leaving the island.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 29, 2010, 11:34:19 AM
Yeah I guess showing the world as we could see it crumbling away is not a good enough indicator as to what would happen if the light went out. Also you really think MiB would have made a spot on the Boat For Cindy and the kids? Maybe thats what he was waiting for at the ladder. Waiting for the kids to meet him at the cliff. Yeah, no. MiB was perfectly content with letting the kids sink to the bottom of the ocean with the rest of the people he "Cared" about from the temple. 
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: CastawayCayley on May 29, 2010, 12:06:07 PM
I agree that if Cindy and the kids had stayed in the Temple they would have been killed in a heartbeat.

But a small point: Zach and Emma's parents were not killed in the initial crash. They were traveling alone and were to be met in LA by their mom. So they have living family elsewhere. In my version of events up inside my brain, Hurley sends them home with Desmond.

ETA: Now I see they said on the popup "LA X" that the parents were killed. So is that revisionist history by the show writers or a mistake by the popup writers?
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: lostlady on May 29, 2010, 03:14:41 PM
I agree that if Cindy and the kids had stayed in the Temple they would have been killed in a heartbeat.

But a small point: Zach and Emma's parents were not killed in the initial crash. They were traveling alone and were to be met in LA by their mom. So they have living family elsewhere. In my version of events up inside my brain, Hurley sends them home with Desmond.

ETA: Now I see they said on the popup "LA X" that the parents were killed. So is that revisionist history by the show writers or a mistake by the popup writers?

I remember when they were being pulled out of the water by Eko after the crash the girl was crying and asking where her mom was. I seem to remember that the mom was on board. I don't have the DVD's (I am waiting to buy them all at once in blu-ray) so I could be wrong.........

In any case if they did survive the morters, Hurley sent them home! They got a big pay out from Oceanic and are very happy and rich now!
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: Madam P on May 29, 2010, 04:48:29 PM
If the kids had stayed behind in the Temple, they would have been killed by MIB along with everyone else. MIB didn't care about anyone that followed along with him.

I agree that they would've been killed if they'd stayed behind.  But then why did he make the offer for anyone who wanted to, to come with him?  Why didn't he just leave them all in there and kill them all?  Why give them a chance?

I know you guys will laugh me off the face of the earth, and that's perfectly OK, but yeah, I can see him taking the kids on the boat with him to leave the island.  If they'd still been there with him, I can see it as a possibility.  Would he risk losing his one-chance-in-a-thousand-years-at-escape to go back and look for them to bring them with him?  No, I don't think so -- as you said, escape was his primary goal.  But if they'd been there with him, yes I think he might've taken them along.

Yeah I guess showing the world as we could see it crumbling away is not a good enough indicator as to what would happen if the light went out.

Nope!  Not for me!   :)  To me, it showed that the Island was collapsing, but I don't see where that means that the entire world as we know it would collapse also.  But your sarcasm is duly noted.   ;)

Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: CastawayCayley on May 29, 2010, 07:02:00 PM
I agree that if Cindy and the kids had stayed in the Temple they would have been killed in a heartbeat.

But a small point: Zach and Emma's parents were not killed in the initial crash. They were traveling alone and were to be met in LA by their mom. So they have living family elsewhere. In my version of events up inside my brain, Hurley sends them home with Desmond.

ETA: Now I see they said on the popup "LA X" that the parents were killed. So is that revisionist history by the show writers or a mistake by the popup writers?

I remember when they were being pulled out of the water by Eko after the crash the girl was crying and asking where her mom was. I seem to remember that the mom was on board. I don't have the DVD's (I am waiting to buy them all at once in blu-ray) so I could be wrong.........

In any case if they did survive the morters, Hurley sent them home! They got a big pay out from Oceanic and are very happy and rich now!

I looked up the transcript from The Other 48 Days.
Zach screams for his sister in the water so Eko goes in after her. Ana Lucia gives her CPR and when she wakes up they have this conversation:

[Emma spits up water and regains consciousness.]
ANA LUCIA: Good, let it out. You okay?
EMMA: Where's my mom?
ANA LUCIA: I don't know.
EMMA: She's meeting us in Los Angeles.

And then from The Other Woman:

BEN: I wanna thank you for how wonderful you've been with Zack and Emma.
JULIET: They're really sweet kids. (Chuckles) Ben, they've been asking me about their mother in Los Angeles. I'm not really sure what to say.
BEN: They'll stop asking in time.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: CaseyMac on May 29, 2010, 07:36:34 PM
If the kids had stayed behind in the Temple, they would have been killed by MIB along with everyone else. MIB didn't care about anyone that followed along with him.

I agree that they would've been killed if they'd stayed behind.  But then why did he make the offer for anyone who wanted to, to come with him?  Why didn't he just leave them all in there and kill them all?  Why give them a chance?

I know you guys will laugh me off the face of the earth, and that's perfectly OK, but yeah, I can see him taking the kids on the boat with him to leave the island.  If they'd still been there with him, I can see it as a possibility.  Would he risk losing his one-chance-in-a-thousand-years-at-escape to go back and look for them to bring them with him?  No, I don't think so -- as you said, escape was his primary goal.  But if they'd been there with him, yes I think he might've taken them along.

My theory on why he recruited some people from the Temple was simply to get some numbers. He didn't seem too surprised when Widmore got there, but even if he had no clue about Widmore, he still was going to have to deal with the candidates in which case the larger his camp is, the better. He didn't seem to give 2 craps when his "people" were getting shelled by Widmore.

Also, I can't really agree with you that he would have brought Emma and Zach along if he had the chance. I'm not laughing at the idea, because we've all had our theories. I think the only way they would have come along is if they were already on the plane or boat or whatever MIB planned to take. MIB didn't care what the consequences were if he left the Island, which is what made him the villian.
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: Madam P on May 31, 2010, 02:57:54 PM
If the kids had stayed behind in the Temple, they would have been killed by MIB along with everyone else. MIB didn't care about anyone that followed along with him.

I agree that they would've been killed if they'd stayed behind.  But then why did he make the offer for anyone who wanted to, to come with him?  Why didn't he just leave them all in there and kill them all?  Why give them a chance?

I know you guys will laugh me off the face of the earth, and that's perfectly OK, but yeah, I can see him taking the kids on the boat with him to leave the island.  If they'd still been there with him, I can see it as a possibility.  Would he risk losing his one-chance-in-a-thousand-years-at-escape to go back and look for them to bring them with him?  No, I don't think so -- as you said, escape was his primary goal.  But if they'd been there with him, yes I think he might've taken them along.

My theory on why he recruited some people from the Temple was simply to get some numbers.

I thought about that at first, too, but then I thought "What does he need numbers for?  Maybe one person (like Sayid or Claire) to run errands, but he's invincible.  It's not like he needs somebody to watch his back so he doesn't get shot or something."  I dunno... 

I re-watched it Saturday night, with the pop-ups (which didn't add much, really.)  But one thing interesting that I missed before was that after MIB told Ben "Oops, I left out that little part about the island being underwater," he added "With that being said, you're still welcome to come along with me on my boat when I leave." 
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: CaseyMac on May 31, 2010, 03:57:14 PM
If the kids had stayed behind in the Temple, they would have been killed by MIB along with everyone else. MIB didn't care about anyone that followed along with him.

I agree that they would've been killed if they'd stayed behind.  But then why did he make the offer for anyone who wanted to, to come with him?  Why didn't he just leave them all in there and kill them all?  Why give them a chance?

I know you guys will laugh me off the face of the earth, and that's perfectly OK, but yeah, I can see him taking the kids on the boat with him to leave the island.  If they'd still been there with him, I can see it as a possibility.  Would he risk losing his one-chance-in-a-thousand-years-at-escape to go back and look for them to bring them with him?  No, I don't think so -- as you said, escape was his primary goal.  But if they'd been there with him, yes I think he might've taken them along.

My theory on why he recruited some people from the Temple was simply to get some numbers.

I thought about that at first, too, but then I thought "What does he need numbers for?  Maybe one person (like Sayid or Claire) to run errands, but he's invincible.  It's not like he needs somebody to watch his back so he doesn't get shot or something."  I dunno... 

I re-watched it Saturday night, with the pop-ups (which didn't add much, really.)  But one thing interesting that I missed before was that after MIB told Ben "Oops, I left out that little part about the island being underwater," he added "With that being said, you're still welcome to come along with me on my boat when I leave." 

I thought about that too, if he is invincible, why would he need numbers? I think it's because his hands were tied when it came to the candidates. According to Jacob's rules, he couldn't touch them. Also, in regards to Widmore, having more troops should have come in handy, but they got owned when Widmore's crew decided to take Jin. When MIB got back, he kind of had a "Are you freaking serious? How could you let that happen?" reaction.

Also, his whole little game with Ben there kind of reminded me of Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back. (surprise) Vader had struck a deal with Lando to trick and trap Han, Leia, and Luke. Then when Vader decided to alter the deal, Lando protested, and Vader responded with the classic "I've altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." Meaning they never really had much of a deal in the first place. I think the same is true with MIB and Ben. He basically said to Ben, "Look you buggy-eyed punk. I just changed the deal, you better hope I don't change it again , or I'll toss you like your guy-liner buddy."
Title: Re: So it's left to our imagination
Post by: Madam P on May 31, 2010, 04:38:21 PM
He basically said to Ben, "Look you buggy-eyed punk. I just changed the deal, you better hope I don't change it again , or I'll toss you like your guy-liner buddy."

You know, if he'd actually said that line, that would've TOTALLY made it into "Best Lines of the Series, Ever."   ;D