Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x15 => Topic started by: Holland34 on May 19, 2010, 04:17:52 AM

Title: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: Holland34 on May 19, 2010, 04:17:52 AM
Seemingly, the rules were set in place that Ben and Widmore couldn't harm one another.  Is it possible that Ben shot Widmore in an effort to actually save him?  If Ben believed that Locke was about to kill Widmore, Ben shoots him knowing that he can't actually kill him but preventing Locke from hurting Widmore, and thus actually sparing him. (Possibly allowing Widmore to play a part in the end-game.)
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 04:30:50 AM
Holland, you have a way of coming up with some really cool ideas. Always impressive. If I was to play devil's advocate, I would say that the rules between Ben and Widmore were different than Jacob's rules. Jacob's rules couldn't be broken, but we saw Widmore break his and Ben's rules by killing Alex.

But it would be cool to see Widmore show up at a time where all hope seemed lost...I kind of think thats going to be Miles' job in the finale though.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: jkbeaulieu on May 19, 2010, 06:28:44 AM
Widmore is dead.  Ben killed him in revenge for Alex.  When Ben first sees Widmore, he has that look like - "You? I never thought I would get the chance to cap you."  But my only hesitation is it seems Ben tries to kill Widmore before he can reveal the truth about Desmond.  Seems Ben may have been trying to thwart Smokey more than kill Widmore lat out.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 19, 2010, 07:58:40 AM
Crack pot theory of the day: Jacob made it so Widmore and the Others couldn't kill Alex, it was against the rules. Keamy kills Alex much like the same way MiB used ben to kill Jacob. It was just a loophole and neither Widmore or MiB are responsible for their deaths.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 19, 2010, 08:46:44 AM
I didn't even think of Ben killing Widmore to protect the island from Smokey. Hmmmmm. I like that idea better than him going back to bad Ben.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: bfth on May 19, 2010, 09:13:38 AM
Immediately thought that Ben was trying to do good by killing Widmore.  (overall good that is).  He didn't want Widmore to tell Smokey what Smokey needed to know.  I'm thinking in the end, Ben IS a good guy.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: Thomas on May 19, 2010, 09:56:43 AM
Immediately thought that Ben was trying to do good by killing Widmore.  (overall good that is).  He didn't want Widmore to tell Smokey what Smokey needed to know.  I'm thinking in the end, Ben IS a good guy.

Agreed.  Ben seemed like he wanted to silence Widmore before he could help Locke.   Now he's staying close, pretending he wants to help, but hoping to set Locke up for the kill.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: Mommainternet on May 19, 2010, 10:39:45 AM
Immediately thought that Ben was trying to do good by killing Widmore.  (overall good that is).  He didn't want Widmore to tell Smokey what Smokey needed to know.  I'm thinking in the end, Ben IS a good guy.

This was my immediate thought, also.  Because he stopped him just in time. 
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: BobBX542 on May 19, 2010, 11:55:35 AM
Seemingly, the rules were set in place that Ben and Widmore couldn't harm one another.  Is it possible that Ben shot Widmore in an effort to actually save him?  If Ben believed that Locke was about to kill Widmore, Ben shoots him knowing that he can't actually kill him but preventing Locke from hurting Widmore, and thus actually sparing him. (Possibly allowing Widmore to play a part in the end-game.)

I see where the thought is going, but I think you are taking the wrong path to it. Look at when Michael tried killing himself. He tried the car, but ended up being saved with virtually no permanent damage done. Then he tries the gun, and it doesn't fire. I think that the rule that says Ben can't kill Widmore, doesn't mean he can shoot him multiple times, and he is okay, but rather the gun wouldn't have worked. Whatever rule there was in place somehow dissolved.

Holland, you have a way of coming up with some really cool ideas. Always impressive. If I was to play devil's advocate, I would say that the rules between Ben and Widmore were different than Jacob's rules. Jacob's rules couldn't be broken, but we saw Widmore break his and Ben's rules by killing Alex.

But it would be cool to see Widmore show up at a time where all hope seemed lost...I kind of think thats going to be Miles' job in the finale though.

I don't know if I'm going to be the unpopular guy for saying this, but Widmore didn't kill Alex. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Keamy wasn't there on the island because of Widmore, but honestly, Widmore didn't kill her.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: lostlady on May 19, 2010, 11:57:56 AM
Yes, Widmore hired keamy and probably didn't realize what a mercenary type of guy he was. Widmore had nothing to do with Alex's death except for the fact he sent Keamy. That wasn't Widmore's plan. His plan was to capture Ben--alive.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: winterfog on May 19, 2010, 12:05:37 PM
Why were Widmore and the nerd-chick just sitting there in the closet?  Weren't they supposed to be escaping, something that appears Miles knows how to do well.  Or were they playing decoy so that Miles could escape unnoticed and unfollowed?  It just surpised me when MiB opened the secret closet and those two were just standing there waiting, I thought they'd be gone.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: BobBX542 on May 19, 2010, 12:23:31 PM
Why were Widmore and the nerd-chick just sitting there in the closet?  Weren't they supposed to be escaping, something that appears Miles knows how to do well.  Or were they playing decoy so that Miles could escape unnoticed and unfollowed?  It just surpised me when MiB opened the secret closet and those two were just standing there waiting, I thought they'd be gone.

I think they were just there hiding. For some reason (I haven't the slightest idea why) Widmore didn't think Ben would betray him.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: MachThree on May 19, 2010, 12:37:59 PM
Seemingly, the rules were set in place that Ben and Widmore couldn't harm one another.  Is it possible that Ben shot Widmore in an effort to actually save him?  If Ben believed that Locke was about to kill Widmore, Ben shoots him knowing that he can't actually kill him but preventing Locke from hurting Widmore, and thus actually sparing him. (Possibly allowing Widmore to play a part in the end-game.)
Its a great theory but I don't think so.  We've seen so far that when you can't do something, if you try to do it, you get stymied and snookered.  I.E. Keamy trying to kill Michael, and his gun jams (or Michael trying to kill himself, and the gun jams).  I don't think Ben actually shooting Widmore would save him.  If it were meant to be that Ben cannot kill Widmore, then gun wouldn't have fired.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 04:48:19 PM
Why were Widmore and the nerd-chick just sitting there in the closet?  Weren't they supposed to be escaping, something that appears Miles knows how to do well.  Or were they playing decoy so that Miles could escape unnoticed and unfollowed?  It just surpised me when MiB opened the secret closet and those two were just standing there waiting, I thought they'd be gone.

I think they were just there hiding. For some reason (I haven't the slightest idea why) Widmore didn't think Ben would betray him.

Yeah, I think that was one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. There is no way to outrun the smoke. If MIB had wanted to catch up to Miles, or knew he was running, Miles would have been toast.

I don't know if I'm going to be the unpopular guy for saying this, but Widmore didn't kill Alex. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Keamy wasn't there on the island because of Widmore, but honestly, Widmore didn't kill her.

Actually, I get what you are saying. Widmore didn't directly kill Alex kinda like MIB didn't directly kill Jacob. Also, it's unlikely that Widmore gave explicit orders to kill Alex, it was just Keamy getting the job done by any means necessary.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: opgelost on May 20, 2010, 02:27:41 PM
Widmore said Jacob visited him and he knew the purpose now.
Than Smoky tells him that he is going to kill Penny when he leaves the island and
Widmore immediatly tells him all the secrets.
Doesn't sound like he firmly believed in Jacob, sounds like he believed that MIB would win
and leave the place and kill Penny.
Why bother about Penny if you believe that the world will end and everyone will cease to
exist if MIB leaves the island. Penny would be gone anyway?
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: BobBX542 on May 20, 2010, 04:30:19 PM
Widmore said Jacob visited him and he knew the purpose now.
Than Smoky tells him that he is going to kill Penny when he leaves the island and
Widmore immediatly tells him all the secrets.
Doesn't sound like he firmly believed in Jacob, sounds like he believed that MIB would win
and leave the place and kill Penny.
Why bother about Penny if you believe that the world will end and everyone will cease to
exist if MIB leaves the island. Penny would be gone anyway?

Because it's his daughter Opie. Come on, have a heart. LOL
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: sillysab on May 20, 2010, 06:23:21 PM
But it would be cool to see Widmore show up at a time where all hope seemed lost...I kind of think thats going to be Miles' job in the finale though.
Yes... Mile's may find out what Widmore knows from Jacob since he can talk to the dead.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 20, 2010, 09:57:41 PM
But it would be cool to see Widmore show up at a time where all hope seemed lost...I kind of think thats going to be Miles' job in the finale though.
Yes... Mile's may find out what Widmore knows from Jacob since he can talk to the dead.

Wow! I totally didn't even think of that. I was just kinda thinking that Miles probably had the C4 and the walkie talkie, but combine with being able to find out what Widmore had planned....nice work sillysab!
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: BobBX542 on May 21, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
But Miles isn't the one that can communicate with them in that way. He only gets a sense about the person.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: lostlady on May 21, 2010, 10:50:10 AM
But Miles isn't the one that can communicate with them in that way. He only gets a sense about the person.

He can 'hear' their last thoughts and since Widmore was in the process of explaining his message to MIB when he was killed, Miles will be able to hear it too.
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: LouE68 on May 21, 2010, 09:32:15 PM
Widmore, like all the others has a new job....and its pushing up daisies....
Title: Re: Is Widmore dead?
Post by: Madam P on May 22, 2010, 08:06:09 AM
Immediately thought that Ben was trying to do good by killing Widmore.  (overall good that is).  He didn't want Widmore to tell Smokey what Smokey needed to know.  I'm thinking in the end, Ben IS a good guy.

Agreed.  Ben seemed like he wanted to silence Widmore before he could help Locke.   Now he's staying close, pretending he wants to help, but hoping to set Locke up for the kill.

Agreed and agreed.  There is no more "bad Ben."  However, if he can help the cause by offing Widmore just in time to prevent info-sharing, then that's just icing on the cake for Ben.  Because whether or not Widmore actually pulled the trigger on Alex, as far as Ben's concerned he's guilty as sin.  Ben couldn't manage to kill Penny, but he could manage this.

For some reason (I haven't the slightest idea why) Widmore didn't think Ben would betray him.

I think Widmore has moved on and is preoccupied with this immediate goal of saving the world or whatever it is that he thinks he's doing; he has temporarily forgotten that he was responsible for the death of someone's daughter.  He makes the mistake of assuming that Ben has done the same thing -- he thinks "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and that Ben is on the anti-MIB side.  Well, the enemy part might be true, but the friend part, not so much.  He underestimated Ben's love for Alex.   And Ben always has a plan.

But Miles isn't the one that can communicate with them in that way. He only gets a sense about the person.

He can 'hear' their last thoughts and since Widmore was in the process of explaining his message to MIB when he was killed, Miles will be able to hear it too.

I like this. 
 

I really liked how quickly and coolly Ben said "Because he doesn't get to save his daughter."  It felt like the old Ben, coming up with an 'excuse' that is not only quite plausible but so quick like that!  Smooth, smooth.  You can never tell if he's lying or not.  It really seemed to placate Flocke who was about to get all testy about "why'd you do that?"