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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x15 => Topic started by: razzle-dazzle on May 19, 2010, 12:59:28 AM

Title: Richard Lives!
Post by: razzle-dazzle on May 19, 2010, 12:59:28 AM
I just had to do it.
He's not dead. A little Smokie toss, can't take him out.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 02:17:48 AM
I hope you are right, because he totally just got Boba Fetted.

edit: Here I am thinking I'm original and Roman122 beat me to it.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Holland34 on May 19, 2010, 04:11:51 AM
Agreed.  It would be just too weird of an ending for Richard if that was it.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 04:17:20 AM
It is how Illana went out.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Holland34 on May 19, 2010, 04:20:15 AM
Yeah, but Ilana wasn't a part of the core group.  I think Richard has moved into that group and to have him killed like that would be a little weird.  The other difference for Ilana is that her death left no doubt.  They didn't even show Richard's body after he was "Boba Fetted" (to stay with the theme.)
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 04:25:40 AM
True, you make a good point about Illana. But Sayid kinda went out in the same way. Although it could be said he was dying from the inside out for awhile before he went boom.

I won't be 1 bit shocked to see Richard again, either as a ghost or surviving the toss.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 19, 2010, 07:30:00 AM
It is how Illana went out.

Not quite, Illana and Sayid exploded and Richard was pushed off screen. Tina Fey had her throat cut, Widmore was shot like 4 times. If it not shown on screen or there is no body, then there is no death.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 19, 2010, 08:53:23 AM
I really hope they would have more consideration for Richard. If they were going to kill him they should have done it better. IMO I don't think he is dead. I hope he shows up right at the end when everyone has given up on him  :D
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: bfth on May 19, 2010, 09:07:36 AM
If he's dead...what did he die for?  ;)
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: vickilynn on May 19, 2010, 10:00:52 AM
I think Smokey just swept him off stage for a minute. Although, like I said on chat last night, Richard lived for a very long time and wanted to die at the end of it all but couldn't - maybe it was so swift just to punctuate that he is finally "released" and can be with his wife?
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: lostfan777 on May 19, 2010, 11:55:53 AM
I really hope they would have more consideration for Richard. If they were going to kill him they should have done it better. IMO I don't think he is dead. I hope he shows up right at the end when everyone has given up on him  :D

Eko was one of my favorite characters way back and I hated how he went out!  Richard was another one for me.  I've lost track of who MIB was able to kill and who he couldn't, but Richard was definitely afraid of him in past scenes (the famous 'run away in mid-sentence' scene comes to mind'), so maybe he had something to fear.  I hope not, lame ending for an epic character.  :-\
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: lostlady on May 19, 2010, 12:00:06 PM
Richard always had fear when confronted with danger so I beleive he knew he could die. Smokey probably would know too if he was able to be killed so wouldn't have even bothered with Richard if he didn't think he could kill him.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 19, 2010, 12:01:55 PM
He would have bothered with him if he needed him out of the way to get to Ben.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: lostandfree on May 19, 2010, 12:04:09 PM
I think he's dead.  I think that's just where they are at this point...killing everyone off that they don't need.  I just can't believe they did that to Richard.  He was one of my favorites and I really wanted him to live to the end.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: *MaZ* on May 19, 2010, 02:36:17 PM
Not dead. I don't think Jacob's "curse" is off just because Jacob is dead. Ricardo can't die, Jacob made is so.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 02:48:27 PM
Partly why I think Richard was dead, is that it created a hell of alot of suspense in that scene. While I was watching it, I'm thinking, "If they killed Richard like that, is Ben a goner now too?" Ben sitting down on the porch (as boring as that sounds) was one of the biggest edge of my seat moments in Lost ever! Even when MIB sat down next to him, I was just waiting for him to plunge that knife in his chest. Excellent suspense!

Also, didn't MIB tell Richard that he wouldn't give him another chance to join him? Richard denied, and he's been hiding from him ever since.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: lostlady on May 19, 2010, 02:50:17 PM

Also, didn't MIB tell Richard that he wouldn't give him another chance to join him? Richard denied, and he's been hiding from him ever since.

Very true! Richard had his chance....
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Madam P on May 20, 2010, 04:22:39 PM
It is how Illana went out.

Not quite, Illana and Sayid exploded and Richard was pushed off screen. Tina Fey had her throat cut, Widmore was shot like 4 times. If it not shown on screen or there is no body, then there is no death.

I used that same argument for why I thought Lapidus was still alive, and I got laughed off the stage.

I think Richard is dead.  (I know, I know... same as Lapidus and I think Lapidus is alive, but... I think Lapidus might still have a purpose *fly the plane* and I can't think of one for Richard.)  As soon as Richard said "I'm going to go out there and talk to him -- he wants me to join him" I said to hubby "Uh, oh.  Richard is toast."
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 20, 2010, 04:40:25 PM
oh my goodness I thought if anyone had my back on this one it was you Madam P!!! Richard can't be dead!!!
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Madam P on May 20, 2010, 04:42:24 PM
LOL -- sorry, Suzanne!  But really, what else can Richard do?  He told us he doesn't know anything about the "island mysteries." 
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: razzle-dazzle on May 20, 2010, 04:45:37 PM
But Jacob made Richard to never die. I can't see how that can happen unless Jacob's powers are active only as long as he was alive.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 20, 2010, 04:49:03 PM
But Jacob made Richard to never die. I can't see how that can happen unless Jacob's powers are active only as long as he was alive.


Well, perhaps Richard wouldn't die of old age or disease, but he could be killed from a bullet, dynomite explosion, or being thrown across the island by a column of smoke that goes ticka ticka when it's mad.

If you are right, and Richard can't die under any circumstances, then we might see him walking around with his neck all twisted up like Meryl Streep in 'Death Becomes Her'.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Madam P on May 20, 2010, 04:49:24 PM
But Jacob made Richard to never die. I can't see how that can happen unless Jacob's powers are active only as long as he was alive.

That.

Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: WhatThe on May 20, 2010, 05:14:24 PM
I think he's dead.  I think that's just where they are at this point...killing everyone off that they don't need.  I just can't believe they did that to Richard.  He was one of my favorites and I really wanted him to live to the end.

LOL -- sorry, Suzanne!  But really, what else can Richard do?  He told us he doesn't know anything about the "island mysteries." 

Yep, Richard is dead. There's only one episode left and we're STILL debating who is "really" dead and who isn't lol. Richard's dead. Widmore's dead. Lapidus is dead. If nothing else, this season is showing that the writers aren't too concerned about giving completed story arcs and heroic "save the day" endings to the audience's most beloved characters. They just kill them off and move on.

And as was stated above, Richard--when all is said and done--was really a nobody in the grand scheme of things. He didn't know exactly why all of the stuff was occurring and seemed pissed the eff OFF that Jacob died before he could be filled in...when he heard Ilana say that Jacob told her to follow Richard because he would know what to do, Richard just gave an incredulous laugh, like saying "You've gotta be kidding...I don't know squat." And Richard's plan that he came up with was--ta daaa--to blow up the plane. That's a plan anybody could have come up with (in fact Widmore DID come up with it as well lol). The icing on the cake was having Richard killed off quickly and unceremoniously, as if he were little more than an extra with a few lines of dialog. The Mysterious and enigmatic Richard ended up being just another guy and held little importance in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: lostlady on May 20, 2010, 05:16:52 PM
I think he's dead.  I think that's just where they are at this point...killing everyone off that they don't need.  I just can't believe they did that to Richard.  He was one of my favorites and I really wanted him to live to the end.

LOL -- sorry, Suzanne!  But really, what else can Richard do?  He told us he doesn't know anything about the "island mysteries." 

Yep, Richard is dead. . The Mysterious and enigmatic Richard ended up being just another guy and held little importance in the grand scheme of things.

So true. *cries a little*
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 20, 2010, 05:32:22 PM
I think he's dead.  I think that's just where they are at this point...killing everyone off that they don't need.  I just can't believe they did that to Richard.  He was one of my favorites and I really wanted him to live to the end.

LOL -- sorry, Suzanne!  But really, what else can Richard do?  He told us he doesn't know anything about the "island mysteries." 

Yep, Richard is dead. . The Mysterious and enigmatic Richard ended up being just another guy and held little importance in the grand scheme of things.

So true. *cries a little*

I don't know about that. Richard played a pretty vital role in alot of the major events on the Island. I mean just because he didn't have all the answers doesn't mean he was "just another guy".

Also, the fact that Richard, and some of the other main characters are dying off in the way they are I think actually creates a tremendous amount of suspense. Alot of times in movies, even though a main character might be in dire peril, deep down we know they will be ok. I mean when you watch Superman, do you ever honestly think Superman is going to die? No. So while there is some suspense, it always reaches a glass ceiling.

Now in Lost...they've made it clear that nobody is safe, which adds an infinite amount of suspense. I mean how many of you were on the edge of your seat when Flocke and Ben were sitting on the porch after Richard got tossed? I have a feeling this finale is going to be one of the most intense television experiences I've had...not to hype it up too much.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: WhatThe on May 20, 2010, 06:17:07 PM
I don't know about that. Richard played a pretty vital role in alot of the major events on the Island. I mean just because he didn't have all the answers doesn't mean he was "just another guy".
Other than taking Ben into the temple as a child, I can't really think of any "major events" that Richard play a role in. He was around during some major events but he didn't really play a vital role. I suppose you could say that helping Kate and Sayid survive Keamy's team was a major event...but you'd like to think that Richard's duties were more important than simply being a hired gun lol.


Quote
Also, the fact that Richard, and some of the other main characters are dying off in the way they are I think actually creates a tremendous amount of suspense. Alot of times in movies, even though a main character might be in dire peril, deep down we know they will be ok. I mean when you watch Superman, do you ever honestly think Superman is going to die? No. So while there is some suspense, it always reaches a glass ceiling.

Now in Lost...they've made it clear that nobody is safe, which adds an infinite amount of suspense. I mean how many of you were on the edge of your seat when Flocke and Ben were sitting on the porch after Richard got tossed? I have a feeling this finale is going to be one of the most intense television experiences I've had...not to hype it up too much.

The problem I had with Richard's death wasn't so much the manner in which it happened, but instead that nothing of real substance occurred before it happened. In the Richard-centric episide Richard finally accepts that he needs to do what his dead wife told him he needed to do (via Hurley), and that's keep MiB from leaving the island. They made it seem as if his finally coming around and finally taking the lead in stopping Smokie was a significant and important event. Alright, Richard!

But as we now see, it wasn't significant and important, and neither was he...he really was just "another guy" who came up with a rather easy and generic plan of action, again one that any of the survivors could have just as easily come up with themselves. It didn't require Richard's experience and enlightenment as Jacob's right-hand man for 150 years...Arnzt would have come up with the same freakin' plan lol. I wish I had felt as if some very real solution died right along with Richard...that his death meant that whatever they needed to do they can now no longer do...that Richard's extremely unique experience and role with Jacob was providing the survivors--and the show--with some MUCH needed knowledge as to how to stop MiB. At least that way his death would not only be sudden, but would make me feel as if the Losties are in even deeper sh!t than they were before. But I felt none of that. Richard's death didn't really effect anything.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 20, 2010, 10:26:23 PM
I wish I had felt as if some very real solution died right along with Richard...that his death meant that whatever they needed to do they can now no longer do...that Richard's extremely unique experience and role with Jacob was providing the survivors--and the show--with some MUCH needed knowledge as to how to stop MiB. At least that way his death would not only be sudden, but would make me feel as if the Losties are in even deeper sh!t than they were before. But I felt none of that. Richard's death didn't really effect anything.

I see what you mean. The best stories are always the ones where the writer get his characters into the worst possible situation, and then gets them out of it. What you are talking about is similar to what I loved about the old A-Team. (I mean that in a good way) Basically in each A-Team, they would form a plan, then something would mess up the plan and there would be that "oh sh!t" moment. Then they would improvise some solution and win the day.

However, it's a little different in Lost here, and for me it's working. If Richard had a plan, then we the audience would know that there is a way to beat MIB and this is how, yada yada. However, even going into the finale, we have no idea how to beat this guy, only that our Losties need to figure out a way to do it. That creates a hell of alot of tension. At some point in this episode, likely when it looks like all hope is lost, somebody is going to say something to the effect of "I have an idea" and we won't know what it is, but that moment, when/if it happens, will be supercool, because we will finally see somebody with a real plan of killing MIB and winning the day.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: WhatThe on May 21, 2010, 12:23:53 AM
I wish I had felt as if some very real solution died right along with Richard...that his death meant that whatever they needed to do they can now no longer do...that Richard's extremely unique experience and role with Jacob was providing the survivors--and the show--with some MUCH needed knowledge as to how to stop MiB. At least that way his death would not only be sudden, but would make me feel as if the Losties are in even deeper sh!t than they were before. But I felt none of that. Richard's death didn't really effect anything.

I see what you mean. The best stories are always the ones where the writer get his characters into the worst possible situation, and then gets them out of it. What you are talking about is similar to what I loved about the old A-Team. (I mean that in a good way) Basically in each A-Team, they would form a plan, then something would mess up the plan and there would be that "oh sh!t" moment. Then they would improvise some solution and win the day.

However, it's a little different in Lost here, and for me it's working. If Richard had a plan, then we the audience would know that there is a way to beat MIB and this is how, yada yada. However, even going into the finale, we have no idea how to beat this guy, only that our Losties need to figure out a way to do it.

I think they still could have had that, though, even with Richard coming up with a much better plan than "We gotta blow up the plane". Lost could have treated it like it treats everything else, and only give vague clues to what Richard's plan consists of...

Richard: "We'll need a rope, some C4 explosives, some duct tape and a CD player. That's the only way to stop MiB from leaving the island."

Hurley: "Dude...why?"

Richard: "You wouldn't understand it even if I tried to explain it to you..."

Hurley: "Dude."

Then, later, Richard gets killed right as they're getting the CD player that Hurley brought with him and was always listening to during Season 1. The Losties--and the audience--still don't know what Richard's plan was, but both the characters and us the viewers spend countless hours and create dozens of threads trying to determine what those 4 items have to do with conquering the evil that is Smokie.


Quote
That creates a hell of alot of tension. At some point in this episode, likely when it looks like all hope is lost, somebody is going to say something to the effect of "I have an idea" and we won't know what it is, but that moment, when/if it happens, will be supercool, because we will finally see somebody with a real plan of killing MIB and winning the day.

My fear is that the "plan" someone comes up with is going to be incredibly basic--like Kate throwing dynamite down the hole when Smokie was dragging Locke down into it--and I'll find myself thinking "Wait...so all it took to defeat Smokie was THAT?" lol.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Madam P on May 21, 2010, 10:34:49 AM
Richard's death didn't really effect anything.

Richard ended up basically serving the purpose of a red-shirt (like Widmore and even Jin/Sun/Sayid.)  As they say in "Galaxy Quest" -- they had to die to prove the situation is serious. 

I wish I had felt as if some very real solution died right along with Richard...that his death meant that whatever they needed to do they can now no longer do...that Richard's extremely unique experience and role with Jacob was providing the survivors--and the show--with some MUCH needed knowledge as to how to stop MiB. At least that way his death would not only be sudden, but would make me feel as if the Losties are in even deeper sh!t than they were before. But I felt none of that. Richard's death didn't really effect anything.

I see what you mean. The best stories are always the ones where the writer get his characters into the worst possible situation, and then gets them out of it. What you are talking about is similar to what I loved about the old A-Team. (I mean that in a good way) Basically in each A-Team, they would form a plan, then something would mess up the plan and there would be that "oh sh!t" moment. Then they would improvise some solution and win the day.

However, it's a little different in Lost here, and for me it's working. If Richard had a plan, then we the audience would know that there is a way to beat MIB and this is how, yada yada. However, even going into the finale, we have no idea how to beat this guy, only that our Losties need to figure out a way to do it.

I think they still could have had that, though, even with Richard coming up with a much better plan than "We gotta blow up the plane". Lost could have treated it like it treats everything else, and only give vague clues to what Richard's plan consists of...

Richard: "We'll need a rope, some C4 explosives, some duct tape and a CD player. That's the only way to stop MiB from leaving the island."

Hurley: "Dude...why?"

Richard: "You wouldn't understand it even if I tried to explain it to you..."

Hurley: "Dude."

Then, later, Richard gets killed right as they're getting the CD player that Hurley brought with him and was always listening to during Season 1. The Losties--and the audience--still don't know what Richard's plan was, but both the characters and us the viewers spend countless hours and create dozens of threads trying to determine what those 4 items have to do with conquering the evil that is Smokie.


Quote
That creates a hell of alot of tension. At some point in this episode, likely when it looks like all hope is lost, somebody is going to say something to the effect of "I have an idea" and we won't know what it is, but that moment, when/if it happens, will be supercool, because we will finally see somebody with a real plan of killing MIB and winning the day.

My fear is that the "plan" someone comes up with is going to be incredibly basic--like Kate throwing dynamite down the hole when Smokie was dragging Locke down into it--and I'll find myself thinking "Wait...so all it took to defeat Smokie was THAT?" lol.


Great post.  LOL.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 21, 2010, 03:12:56 PM
I wish I had felt as if some very real solution died right along with Richard...that his death meant that whatever they needed to do they can now no longer do...that Richard's extremely unique experience and role with Jacob was providing the survivors--and the show--with some MUCH needed knowledge as to how to stop MiB. At least that way his death would not only be sudden, but would make me feel as if the Losties are in even deeper sh!t than they were before. But I felt none of that. Richard's death didn't really effect anything.

I see what you mean. The best stories are always the ones where the writer get his characters into the worst possible situation, and then gets them out of it. What you are talking about is similar to what I loved about the old A-Team. (I mean that in a good way) Basically in each A-Team, they would form a plan, then something would mess up the plan and there would be that "oh sh!t" moment. Then they would improvise some solution and win the day.

However, it's a little different in Lost here, and for me it's working. If Richard had a plan, then we the audience would know that there is a way to beat MIB and this is how, yada yada. However, even going into the finale, we have no idea how to beat this guy, only that our Losties need to figure out a way to do it.

I think they still could have had that, though, even with Richard coming up with a much better plan than "We gotta blow up the plane". Lost could have treated it like it treats everything else, and only give vague clues to what Richard's plan consists of...

Richard: "We'll need a rope, some C4 explosives, some duct tape and a CD player. That's the only way to stop MiB from leaving the island."

Hurley: "Dude...why?"

Richard: "You wouldn't understand it even if I tried to explain it to you..."

Hurley: "Dude."

Then, later, Richard gets killed right as they're getting the CD player that Hurley brought with him and was always listening to during Season 1. The Losties--and the audience--still don't know what Richard's plan was, but both the characters and us the viewers spend countless hours and create dozens of threads trying to determine what those 4 items have to do with conquering the evil that is Smokie.


Quote
That creates a hell of alot of tension. At some point in this episode, likely when it looks like all hope is lost, somebody is going to say something to the effect of "I have an idea" and we won't know what it is, but that moment, when/if it happens, will be supercool, because we will finally see somebody with a real plan of killing MIB and winning the day.

My fear is that the "plan" someone comes up with is going to be incredibly basic--like Kate throwing dynamite down the hole when Smokie was dragging Locke down into it--and I'll find myself thinking "Wait...so all it took to defeat Smokie was THAT?" lol.


I think you've been watching too much MacGruber lately. lol

My main point really was if anybody knew how to defeat MIB, it would take the suspense we feel right now down a notch. The fact that not even Jacob knew puts MIB in that "invincible villian" catagory, and I've always said the key to every good movie is a good villian and good music. When it comes time to actually take him out...I'll be on the edge of my seat.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: Folly529 on May 21, 2010, 05:38:31 PM
A little late to the conversation . . . but piping up anyway!

Review:  We spent one of the last hours of Lost on Richard's backstory - establishing his importance, his immortality, his relationship to Jacob and MiB and the Island. 

And then they summarily kill him off before he can play out his part in the story?  Yes, he was part of the blow up gang and said he didn't know about the Island's mysteries, but I have to believe that the Island isn't done with him.

I think we'll see him again in the finale.
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: LouE68 on May 22, 2010, 08:50:47 PM
It is how Illana went out.

Not quite, Illana and Sayid exploded and Richard was pushed off screen. Tina Fey had her throat cut, Widmore was shot like 4 times. If it not shown on screen or there is no body, then there is no death.
after rewatching, he was kind of pushed and thrown up in the air
Title: Re: Richard Lives!
Post by: CaseyMac on May 23, 2010, 03:09:31 AM
A little late to the conversation . . . but piping up anyway!

Review:  We spent one of the last hours of Lost on Richard's backstory - establishing his importance, his immortality, his relationship to Jacob and MiB and the Island. 

And then they summarily kill him off before he can play out his part in the story?  Yes, he was part of the blow up gang and said he didn't know about the Island's mysteries, but I have to believe that the Island isn't done with him.

I think we'll see him again in the finale.

I hope you are right, even if we just get him in ghost form.

And I kind of agree with what you said about all that we saw in Ab Aeterno, then all of a sudden woosh, he's gone. However, I think it's impotant to note that maybe part of the reason he died was because he split away from Hurley, Jack, etc. If Richard had more "faith" in Hurley's gut feeling, maybe he'd still be alive, maybe not.