Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x14 => Topic started by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 12:03:21 AM

Title: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 12:03:21 AM
There seems to be a bit of debate on this idea, so I thought it would be cool to put it to a poll, and I guess collect the debate into one place.

1 school of thought seems to be that since we saw MIB's body, that means he is dead. The Smoke Monster is not MIB, but only uses his form occasionally. Plain and simple.

The other school of thought is that since Jacob could not kill MIB, then there is no way for MIB to die at that moment, so if he didn't die, then he must of changed into, or become part of Smokey.

Personally, I'm in the metamorphasis camp. As a bit of foreshadowing evidence, I'd like to remind people of this thread that was started back in Ab Aeterno titled Butterfly (http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10681.0.html)

Thank you for voting, and putting in your 2 cents.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: LouE68 on May 13, 2010, 12:08:55 AM
What if I think Jacob killed his brother back at the cave, then what was left of his brother morphed into Smokey...he has all of Jacobs brothers mind and thought, but not his soul...not his essence...Just like he had Lockes last thoughts, he has the idea Jacobs Bro had, get off the island...but he has no reason why he wants off...just, thats the last thought he had...so it's kind of both...and more...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: jinfan on May 13, 2010, 12:16:07 AM
I am under this impression because I think fake mom..well, lied
about being their mother
aboutletting him leave(to Jacob about MIB)
about nothing across the sea,etc.
mingled with other unwordable by me type thoughts
(not SURE MIB was dead and not just knocked out by Jacob)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: Barringer on May 13, 2010, 12:22:53 AM
I think it's pretty clear the writers intended for Jacob's brother to be the smoke monster. The episode is billed as explaining "Locke's motivations." If the smoke monster is merely taking the form of Jacob's brother and the form of Locke, then the episode failed in this, because the smoke monster didn't appear until the final five minutes of the episode, and there is no explanation about it or its motivations. We learn a lot about Jacob's brother and his motivations, though; if he merely died and his form was adopted by the smoke monster, it seems a waste to delve into his character. That's just from the storytelling standpoint.

Within the actual story itself, we're told that the brothers cannot hurt each other, hence the necessity of the loophole. The smoke monster tells Richard that Jacob took "[his] body, [his] humanity." Jacob's brother wants to go home; the smoke monster tells Ben it wants what John Locke didn't: to go home.

And in an interview I read with Lindelof and Cuse today, Cuse says:

"We wanted to explain why the Man in Black had behaved the way that he does, and to show that like a lot of other characters on the show, he's the victim of very bad parenting. To reduce him to just a supernatural force, as opposed to a person, was not our intent. "Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are."

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/exclusive-interview-lost-producers-damon-lindelof-and-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea

It just doesn't seem to make much sense to me to try to separate the smoke monster and Jacob's brother into separate entities. It's needlessly complex, and really makes the episode worse, because the episode is about Jacob and his brother; the smoke monster doesn't figure into it as a separate entity, and if it were a separate entity, the episode offers zero insight into its motivations or purpose. Something bad happened to Jacob's brother when he was thrown into the light by Jacob, and now he's the smoke monster.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 01:52:15 AM
Yeah, I agree Barringer. Why would they spend all that time giving us the MIB backstory and then just kill him at the end? It's like here, all this stuff we spent the whole episode showing you...now toss it out the window. That just is hard for me to swallow.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: Barringer on May 13, 2010, 02:26:55 AM
To be honest, I think this whole confusion arose out of poor (or at least unclear) writing. The writers wanted to tie Jacob's brother and mother with the two skeletons found in the caves, so they had to have the brother's body reappear after Jacob tossed him into the cave in order for it to turn into a skeleton.

Would we be having these "The man in black isn't the smoke monster, the smoke monster is just taking his form" theories if his body never reappeared, and instead Jacob just threw him into the cave, and the smoke monster came out? Doubtful.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostjava on May 13, 2010, 08:34:29 AM
Actually I think the writers were clever because they kept it ambiguous so we wouldn't know (hopefully we will).

I think the MIB was dead.  His body going into the cave released smokey.  When smokey came flying out, the body was push out of the cave too.  Just my thinking at this time.  Of course, that's subject to change as I continue to contemplate the episode.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on May 13, 2010, 10:26:48 AM
Yeah, I agree Barringer. Why would they spend all that time giving us the MIB backstory and then just kill him at the end? It's like here, all this stuff we spent the whole episode showing you...now toss it out the window. That just is hard for me to swallow.

What if it was just to reveal Jacobs backstory,

We did see more of Jacob than MIB in this episode.

Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostlady on May 13, 2010, 10:51:12 AM
The writers have said (yesterday)that MIB = Smokey so I am going with this theory.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 11:07:27 AM
The writers have said (yesterday)that MIB = Smokey so I am going with this theory.

This
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostfan777 on May 13, 2010, 12:34:40 PM
MIB Lives!  Entering the light causes a fate 'worse than death'.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 12:48:04 PM
THANK YOU for making this ...ive noticed a few threads now are debating this so one place should help....
im not going to attach others qoutes to challenge so heres my take on MIB being DEAD....

* body on branch lifeless found by jacob
* ceremonial burial in caves with his fake mom and stones
* existence of smokey Prior to MIB floating into the cave of light
* some say light was extenguished after mib entered and smokey left ( not as far as i can see from this screen cap)
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1549-566.html  click it to enlarge
* ben using smokey to attack merc's under jacobs orders (ben was team jacob)
* smokey/alex telling ben under temple he killed her (smokey just using another dead body)
 more to come as i wrack my brain to gather more from other episodes... but i am under the impression this episode was to show how jacob was the chosen one and how alone against a creature he released he has struggled to now find his replacement....
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 12:54:00 PM

* existence of smokey Prior to MIB floating into the cave of light

* ben using smokey to attack merc's under jacobs orders (ben was team jacob)

The first one just seems to be making things up

As for the second point there, it has been argued, by me, that Ben was under the impression that MiB was using the cabin and it can be argued that Ben only THOUGHT he was team Jacob.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: beanblog on May 13, 2010, 01:04:03 PM
Yeah - it seems to me that all major signs point to MIB undergoing a transformation into smokie... which is apparently a fate worse than death.  Of course, if I had the choice between dying and turning in to giant nano-swarm of electromagnetic interference that can read minds, fly, and chose my own appearance/form, I think I'd go with option 2 :)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 01:06:31 PM
not made up.... what is a fate worse than death that jacob and fake mom speak of.... somewhere we are not shown that jacob is told of a smoke monster... some claim that fake mom even used smokey to wipe out a village like how ben used it on the mercs... some say smokey has been heard prior to mib having his head smashed in by fake mom in the donkey wheel cavern...
BUT
to start a new question, are we now to believe smokey instantly came into existence the second MIB floated into his cave "UNWILLINGLY"... unconscious and pushed on his way by jacob??? thats like saying i wonder if the water in the swimming pool is cold by shoving your mate in first to see if they scream "its so cold"... i know a dumb example...

my point is.... i could jump easily on the team MIB/SMOKEY bandwagon if TPTB had just shown him going in on his own curiosity .... but to be unconscious and tossed in as a punishment... how can that instantly create a smoke monster that never existed before hand????
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: jinfan on May 13, 2010, 01:07:32 PM
 
 
* smokey/alex telling ben under temple he killed her (smokey just using another dead body)
 I agree with MIB=dead, however I have always thought Flock did NOT know this happened, so it could not have been smokie as Alex(my 2 cents)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 01:11:19 PM
to qoute jacob prior to him cracking mibs head on a rock and setting him down the rapids into the hole...

Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"
tosses him down on a rock and MIB floats in unconsious (possibly dead)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 01:14:50 PM
on a side note.... i also believe we are shown a snippet of MIB's life to satisfy who is adam and eve...for those who feel we arent shown all this info about MIB just to have him die at the end of the epsiode.....
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 02:08:58 PM
my point is.... i could jump easily on the team MIB/SMOKEY bandwagon if TPTB had just shown him going in on his own curiosity .... but to be unconscious and tossed in as a punishment... how can that instantly create a smoke monster that never existed before hand????

Whats really funny is, if MIB walked in on his own, I would have an easier time believing he was dead.

Thats because my main sticking point, and the thing that simply is the firewall for me believing MIB died is this. Jacob cannot kill MIB and MIB cannot kill Jacob. We've already seen the huge Rube Goldberg-esque plan that MIB had to do to kill Jacob, so it's impossible for me to accept that Jacob was able to kill MIB. Now, I've heard it argued that Jacob didn't directly kill him, it was the creek that pushed him in the cave. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me. It's like that Richard/Jack scene back at the Black Rock, it wouldn't have been them killing themselves, it's the dynomite. Or the classic NRA joke, guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

My point is, thats just splitting hairs. Jacob tossed MIB in the cave, so MIB couldn't have been killed there.

Now, as for Jacob's reactions after that, well, what do you expect. He sees his brother's body and assumes, like some of you, that he is dead. So he gives him a burial. What Jacob doesn't know at that point, but obviously figures out later, is that MIB morphed into Smokey, cast off his body like a cocoon, and that is why MIB needed a loophole in order to kill Jacob.

So, to use a Star Wars analogy (surprise), MIB turning into Smokey, is alot like Anakin turning into Darth Vader. Instead of being more machine than man (Vader), he is more Smoke than man now. He didn't die, he just changed.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on May 13, 2010, 02:19:07 PM
I was sure that the Brother was dead and gone, and the Smoke is the evil of the world after I watched the episode.  AND THEN I come on here and become all persuaded.  It's just a few simple things.

1. Momma Bear made it so that they can't kill each other.
2. Fate worse than death.  Worse than, not a fate OF death.
3. Smoke/MIB disgruntled anger with Jacob.  He stole my humanity, betrayed me, trapped me.

Someone made a good point early on...it was Jacob's intention to have his brother go into the Light.  If Jacob was...I dunno, standing by the stream washing that hard man body of his off and saw his Brother floating towards the Light he would be innocent of brother's fate.  But forcefully thrusting him into the light, TELLING him to leave pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 03:55:29 PM
its all cool... you hold the ACE which is:-
TPTB said smokey is MIB.... kinda like they told us no time travelling
you also hold the qoute of " crazy momma said we cant hurt/kill each other...

and i agree it wasnt jacobs INTENTION to kill him.... i assume his words said prior to pushing IB down the hole
Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"

i am to assume he felt MIB would be transported OFF the island , much like we know anyone who turns the donkey wheel can NEVER return... oh thats right, ben and dead locke returned.... funny how the producers say stuff and contradict themselves....

MIB up till the day he went into the hole is DEAD...
fake MIB
fake locke
Fake Yemmi
Fake Christian
Fake alex
Fake horsie

is all weve seen since....

smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: Barringer on May 13, 2010, 04:00:39 PM
How is Darlton telling us that Jacob's brother is the smoke monster the night after the episode airs at all comparable to them claiming there wouldn't be time travel back during season 1 or 2, and then reneging on that three years later, presumably after they changed their minds?

Are you saying they changed their minds after they wrote and aired the episode? Or are just lying to the audience?
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:09:33 PM
i just read my first apparent pod cast... but during the "is christian alive or dead " debates way back when i remember someone saying that TPTB settled the issue once and for all by standing thier ground that he was absolutely dead.... didnt do much for most who then screamed LIE when he popped up off island, and has been seen in the cabin and at dharmaville... as a ghost ..it seemed or now we find out an apparition of smokey.... regardless, they want to put rumors or wrond delusions to bed and yet reshow scenes such as jacob saying you want to LEAVE... then GO... the scene is whats rattled the sabres... like i said

it would have made ABSOLUTE sense that MIB is SMOKEY if he disobeyed his mum and went into the light himself, and as a consequence, was jeckyl and hyded into smokey.... NOT by his brother knocking him out and pushing him in against his WILL... only to find out it doesnt transport you away...it actually transforms you into a killing machine/security device...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:11:28 PM
smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

I'm sorry, you know that how? Are you "special" in that you just know things?

Now I think it might be possible for Mother to have been able to turn into a smoke monster considering the devastation that she did to the well and the village looked alot like what Locke did to the Temple. But that would just mean she was a different smoke monster. Do I have any evidence to back that up? None at all. It's purely a hyothesis.

But Barringer brings up a really good point. There is a difference between changing your mind as a writer years later and saying something not only immediately after an episode, but several times during the episode itself. Hell, MIB's last words in the episode were something like "You can't kill me. Mother made it that way." It's hard to just turn a blind eye to that.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:16:41 PM
Im sorry you know smokey didnt exist before the person went into the light...wow you know everything huh????

who killed all MIBs family/friends in less than 24 hours and covered up a 1000 +sq foot hole??? momma bear who have we seen do this before??? "
SMOKEY!!!!!!!!!!!
im assuming as you are...
you seem to know so much... please inform me how a smokey creature with HOLES/tunnels everywhere just happened to form in 5 seconds of air time after MIb entered the hole....
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:17:41 PM
it would have made ABSOLUTE sense that MIB is SMOKEY if he disobeyed his mum and went into the light himself, and as a consequence, was jeckyl and hyded into smokey.... NOT by his brother knocking him out and pushing him in against his WILL... only to find out it doesnt transport you away...it actually transforms you into a killing machine/security device...

I take it the exact opposite. I think it would be easier to believe MIB is dead if he just walked in there because Jacob didn't kill him then. I don't think the INTENTION of going in the cave has any bearing on anything at all. It certainly was never mentioned by anyone.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:18:02 PM
oh so we now have diffenrent "levels" of smokey monsters... how convenient..
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:20:39 PM
either way MIB is dead.... the only debate should be...is his SOUL still alive...cause that body in the caves sure looked like him when jacob had his mock funeral.... so how can a soul/person still be alive once it leaves the body??? how can it still think/act on its own in a new body/apparation?

MIB is smokeys costume...nothing more... to say MIB as weve come to know him this epsidoe is exactly as he would be if still alive is whats wrong.... MIB is dead and shown dead as evidenced in the adam and eve scene...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 04:20:52 PM
smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

I'm sorry, you know that how? Are you "special" in that you just know things?

Now I think it might be possible for Mother to have been able to turn into a smoke monster considering the devastation that she did to the well and the village looked alot like what Locke did to the Temple. But that would just mean she was a different smoke monster. Do I have any evidence to back that up? None at all. It's purely a hyothesis.

But Barringer brings up a really good point. There is a difference between changing your mind as a writer years later and saying something not only immediately after an episode, but several times during the episode itself. Hell, MIB's last words in the episode were something like "You can't kill me. Mother made it that way." It's hard to just turn a blind eye to that.

Yeah I love it when Blind eyes are so obviously turned to things. I've done it before, we all have, but this evidence is glaring now. Oz I appreciate your fervor, but you are fighting a losing battle. For TPTB to coyley (sp) say there won't be any time travel even though they knew there probably would, is one thing. This is the end game. This is not going to be the time where they show one thing so clearly, regardless of the fact that a small subset of people may not grasp it, and then immediately reinforce it through interview, and have it all be misdirection. Not the time for that anymore. If you want to keep fighting the fight I can't stop you, but it's kind of like trying to chop down the biggest tree in the forest with... a herring.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostfan777 on May 13, 2010, 04:24:06 PM
its all cool... you hold the ACE which is:-
TPTB said smokey is MIB.... kinda like they told us no time travelling
you also hold the qoute of " crazy momma said we cant hurt/kill each other...

and i agree it wasnt jacobs INTENTION to kill him.... i assume his words said prior to pushing IB down the hole
Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"

i am to assume he felt MIB would be transported OFF the island , much like we know anyone who turns the donkey wheel can NEVER return... oh thats right, ben and dead locke returned.... funny how the producers say stuff and contradict themselves....

MIB up till the day he went into the hole is DEAD...
fake MIB
fake locke
Fake Yemmi
Fake Christian
Fake alex
Fake horsie

is all weve seen since....

smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke... it can immitate him but they are 2 different beings...

So, some of us have assumed that because we were told MIB and Jacob couldn't kill each other, that MIB didn't die.  Maybe we're fools to believe what we're told because of the contradictions you pointed out.  But you're making an assumption also to support what you got from the episode, only your assumption isn't even based on anything we've been told or shown.  Nowhere was it ever said that the smoke was ALWAYS with the light.  The only sign that it MAY have been there before would be the devastation at MIB's camp, the filled-in well and fallen tree, etc.  But again, there was no indication that it was Smokie.  And it sure seemed to me that after 30+ years on the island, Jacob looked pretty surprised to see it in action.  I think it was his first appearance.  The tunnels and all might have come later or they might be natural formations (running water tends to do that), but in that scene, it flew out of the cave into the trees, that's it.  Put me on the side of MIB=Smokie, TPTB said last week (in a no-longer spoiling spoiler) that this episode would show us how the smoke monster was 'created'.  I find it hard to believe they would outright lie at this point in the story.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:24:53 PM
as i said..you hold the ace..... much like "is christian really dead" people used it as a trump card....

reread the article again... as smug as TPTB are in it... they can and have said whatever it is that comes to mind and have /will change it again... having 3 episodes left doesnt allow them a PASS...

as i have stated... for clarity purposes...why have this in the scene

Jacob
"You want to find the light"
"you want to LEAVE this place BROTHER"
"Then GO"

Why have him thrown down the hole against his WILL

why make it so GREY!
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 04:28:31 PM
as i said..you hold the ace.....

Yes WE hold the Ace. The Ace beats a fake 7 of Spindles any day of the Week!  ;)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:30:28 PM
Oh i cant deny having the actual creators come by after the airing to answer the question is a great point for MIB=Smokey...
it does very little for me.... and as ive stated... if MIB went in on his own free will, then the story is sealed...

but why the dragging his brother to the light
why the uncounsiousness, cause you know he would have fought like a dog not to go in there from his mommas bed time story...
why the line "you want to LEAVE this PLACE brother"... Then GOOOOOO
why the discarded remains... hell we havent even found christians remanins yet....

i agree that when we have seen MIB up until this epsiode... it was smokey in his human form... but thats how he can actually speak.... he cant talk as the smoke monster , so they show him as someone from 1000's of years ago... hell he tricked me when he was in christians form... i was on the christian lives bandwagon forever... no body = alive... body = dead
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:31:00 PM
Im sorry you know smokey didnt exist before the person went into the light...wow you know everything huh????

who killed all MIBs family/friends in less than 24 hours and covered up a 1000 +sq foot hole??? momma bear who have we seen do this before??? "
SMOKEY!!!!!!!!!!!
im assuming as you are...
you seem to know so much... please inform me how a smokey creature with HOLES/tunnels everywhere just happened to form in 5 seconds of air time after MIb entered the hole....

No thats my point. I don't know 1 way or the other. So I'm not going to say definitively "smokey has been around since the "light" has been around.... so MIB can not BE the smoke" and use it as evidence to support my theory.

As to your questions, my thoery is that there are not hole and tunnels all over. There is just the 1. There is no temple yet. There is no room with vent holes and hyroglyphics. They all have not been built yet.

Also, yeah, it's just a guess that Mother could turn into a smoke monster also, and that it was a completely different smoke monster. It was an ability that she had, so when she died, no more of that smoke monster. Then when MIB gets tossed into the cave, he gets the ability to turn into a smoke monster also, but is a completely different smoke monster. I don't have a shred of evidence to back that up, so I put it in my "hair brained theory" file.

Am I right? Who the hell knows? But these are really side arguements to the main point. The idea that MIB is not dead because Jacob can't kill him.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:32:48 PM
Do you believe that Jacob Knew the outcome of sending MIB into the light????
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:36:26 PM
Do you believe that Jacob Knew the outcome of sending MIB into the light????

Nope. He just knew what Mother told him. It's a fate worse then death. Jacob also knew what his Brother told him about his plan to get off the Island using the light. So it may have been just a situation of throwing his words back at him. I don't think Jacob knew exactly what would happen by throwing his brother in the light, only that he couldn't kill him.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:38:01 PM
ive rewatched the episode over and i dont see how or why showing a PURGE of MIB's family/friends can be at the hands of a single 130lb woman.... nor would the hole be covered in without the use of mechanical devices be possible in such a short period... so using what the shows given us, which is smokeys devestation/ tree felling and burrowing... 1+1= smokey did it...

now take the shootout at the plane when bullets dont harm him and sayids stabbing him in the heart 1+1 = Smokey cant die (momma did)

Momma bear wasnt smokey!!!!!!

Smokey existed before MIB went into the light

yes MIB is Fused with smokey but only in his human features and memories ( nothing from that point is NEW)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:39:30 PM
Smokey Killed MIB, much like the pilot.... Trauma... ( hence jacob didnt kill him)

Mibs body was found however far away by Jacob... DEAD... he even had a very moving funeral
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:43:07 PM
ive rewatched the episode over and i dont see how or why showing a PURGE of MIB's family/friends can be at the hands of a single 130lb woman.... nor would the hole be covered in without the use of mechanical devices be possible in such a short period... so using what the shows given us, which is smokeys devestation/ tree felling and burrowing... 1+1= smokey ...

now take the shootout at the plane when bullets dont harm him and sayids stabbing him in the heart 1+1 = Smokey cant die

Momma bear wasnt smokey

Smokey existed before MIB went into the light

yes MIB is Fused with smokey but only in his human features and memories ( nothing from that point is NEW)

I agree, Mother, in her human form could not do the devastation that we saw, which is why I have my 2 smoke monters theory. As for Smokey being immortal...I don't think we've seen everything on that. Jacob could only be killed in a very specific way, so perhaps Mother could only be killed in a very specific way also.

Basically, this show has to have an end game, and I'm leaning it towards Smokey being stopped...permanently. (i.e. killed)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 04:43:32 PM
Oh i cant deny having the actual creators come by after the airing to answer the question is a great point for MIB=Smokey...
it does very little for me.... and as ive stated... if MIB went in on his own free will, then the story is sealed...

but why the dragging his brother to the light
why the uncounsiousness, cause you know he would have fought like a dog not to go in there from his mommas bed time story...
why the line "you want to LEAVE this PLACE brother"... Then GOOOOOO
why the discarded remains... hell we havent even found christians remanins yet....

i agree that when we have seen MIB up until this epsiode... it was smokey in his human form... but thats how he can actually speak.... he cant talk as the smoke monster , so they show him as someone from 1000's of years ago... hell he tricked me when he was in christians form... i was on the christian lives bandwagon forever... no body = alive... body = dead

Okay to your middle point about the struggle draggin him to the Light, He wanted to damn his brother to a fate worse than death and I'm sure MiB would not go willingly, so he forced him there.

The Body was thrown out so TPTB could put someone central to the show's mythology as Adam and Eve. They have gone on record saying MiB is the Smoke Monster I think three times now and their story hasn't changed. When you are debating against a stance that holds, as you put it, a trump card, sometimes the best thing to do is to get on board because they hold a Trump card for a reason. (psst...they are usually right)

ive rewatched the episode over and i dont see how or why showing a PURGE of MIB's family/friends can be at the hands of a single 130lb woman.... nor would the hole be covered in without the use of mechanical devices be possible in such a short period... so using what the shows given us, which is smokeys devestation/ tree felling and burrowing... 1+1= smokey ...

now take the shootout at the plane when bullets dont harm him and sayids stabbing him in the heart 1+1 = Smokey cant die

Momma bear wasnt smokey

Smokey existed before MIB went into the light

yes MIB is Fused with smokey but only in his human features and memories ( nothing from that point is NEW)

So in a show that incorporates time travel and immortality and a mysterious light, you are in disbelief that a 130 lb woman, who happens to have the powers bestowed as the Protector of the island (Which may include a skill remarkably similar to telekenesis) could knock her son out for a few hours and kill a small village of people armed with nothing more than spears? Yeah I am willing to take the Leap that this is exactly what happened.

Smokey Killed MIB, much like the pilot.... Trauma...

Mibs body was found however far away by Jacob... DEAD... he even had a very moving funeral

Once again directly goes against what we have IMPLICITLY been told.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:45:46 PM
Basically, this show has to have an end game, and I'm leaning it towards Smokey being stopped...permanently. (i.e. killed)
OR contained Under water....
.......................
jacob wasnt a smokey monster so his death was very human like... kill shot to the heart!
Mib was killed from Trauma of falling from a great height to a great distance away...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:46:13 PM
Smokey Killed MIB, much like the pilot.... Trauma... ( hence jacob didnt kill him)

Mibs body was found however far away by Jacob... DEAD... he even had a very moving funeral

See, thats what I said about the NRA joke, guns don't kill people, bullets kill people. It's a lame arguement. And yes, the body was discarded, much like how a butterfly discards it's cocoon.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:50:13 PM
Ok maybe this clears it up a bit....

I AGREE SMOKEY = MIB for the purposes of a visual / narrating end to what "smokey" wants...
I DO NOT AGREE that like some evil super power whos dipped in plutonium and comes out with super human powers to take on spiderman and rule the world.... as what smokey is and wants will never be known at this late stage...

Errors that allow for grey area..... Flocke telling jack he was christian.... so we can assume he plays any dead character, including MIB... it doesnt mean it IS MIB... im not debating what ive/youve seen... im defending MIB never being this violent as a HUMAN form... so why start the second he is thrown down a waterfall into the light???
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 04:53:17 PM
Smokey Killed MIB, much like the pilot.... Trauma... ( hence jacob didnt kill him)

Mibs body was found however far away by Jacob... DEAD... he even had a very moving funeral

See, thats what I said about the NRA joke, guns don't kill people, bullets kill people. It's a lame arguement. And yes, the body was discarded, much like how a butterfly discards it's cocoon.

As much as I love this debate pulling me ever closer to my goal stated back in '06 about being a 4 Star, I think this is another case of someone just NOT getting it. Sometimes people are just so concerned about whether or not their very first instinc was correct that they neglect the clear-as-day proof right in front of them. Oz has even acknowledged that TPTB have said MiB=The Smoke and yet still wants to argue that its not. The reasoning is not very sound at all, and I am ot sure what else can be said to try to talk him off the insanity ledge.  SMOKEY WANTS WHAT MIB WANTS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME PERSON! (that is a very stressing tone as if talking to a deaf person) just so no one thinks I am yelling.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:53:55 PM
im more or less leaving it as this thread to set up team MIB camp.... cause all the other ones are fairly the same issue...

the question above so brilliantly stated is

MIB was killed in the cave by Jacob    = DEAD.. no breaths, no eating, no drinking, no thoughts, no desires....
MIB metamorphisized into Smokey = coocooned into a new life form, and now has the powers to beat up anyone he likes...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 04:55:53 PM
im defending MIB never being this violent as a HUMAN form... so why start the second he is thrown down a waterfall into the light???

Like when he stabbed Mother in the back? *cough*
Then technically, we didn't see him be violent after that, even as Smokey. I mean a butterfly doesn't violently shed it's cocoon, to continue the metaphor. But after hundreds, then thousands of years, you will start to do anything to get off the Island. And I think thats the main thing to take away from that episode as we head into the finale. MIB will do anything, no matter the consequences, to get off the Island.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 04:56:10 PM
Yes ive acknoledged TPTB saying MIB=SMOKEY... as the ace in the hand comment referred.... luckily ive had a few 2 pair hands that have trumped aces so i can carry on and not fold....

Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 05:00:05 PM
goood point...he stabbed his mother in the back.... as we can assume most murders like this are because they cant face the person they love so they attack from behind as to not be swayed from the outcome desired....

what would have been your reaction by the way if your ticket off the rock was SLAUGHTERED and burned, your head was smashed against a rock.... no one is to know how many cracks of the head have ended in death when someone simply wanted to knock someone out... im assuming his rage and attack on her was based upon his attempted murder by psycho mommie...

and waking up to find his lifes work BURIED..and all alone to know he's never leaving because someone who KILLED his mother says so...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 05:05:01 PM
im more or less leaving it as this thread to set up team MIB camp.... cause all the other ones are fairly the same issue...

the question above so brilliantly stated is

MIB was killed in the cave by Jacob    = DEAD.. no breaths, no eating, no drinking, no thoughts, no desires....
MIB metamorphisized into Smokey = coocooned into a new life form, and now has the powers to beat up anyone he likes...



I'm going to make a little edit here to make you right....

MiB was Thrown into the cave by Jacob, But because Jacob Can't kill his brother because it is against the rules MiB now = Smoke Monster.

MiB IS the Smoke Monster. Anything posted about this exact topic should follow this line of thought otherwise I will deem it WRONG.  ;D

If you want an MiB camp thats fine, but know thatby supporting MiB you are supporting every bit of him. The Man he was before all the good was magnetically ripped from him, and after when all that is left is a shapeshifting column of black smoke.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 05:09:10 PM
Oh thats fine...look back a few episodes when i started are you a team Locke/team jack fan....

ive been a locke supporter from day one... so i know im in a minority...

but i know that locke wants to STAY on the island, so the confusion of this smoke thing wanting off makes it hard to sit thru some epsiodes... im all for smokey locke kicking some tail... but i also am aware its not REALLY locke doing it... just a really goood chameleon ation...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 05:12:08 PM
Oh thats fine...look back a few episodes when i started are you a team Locke/team jack fan....

ive been a locke supporter from day one... so i know im in a minority...

but i know that locke wants to STAY on the island, so the confusion of this smoke thing wanting off makes it hard to sit thru some epsiodes... im all for smokey locke kicking some tail... but i also am aware its not REALLY locke doing it... just a really goood chameleon ation...

Yeah Locke really doesn't want to stay anywhere these days except in his coffin. Locke is still dead. MiB is impersonating Locke like he has done with multiple people, but the first form he took was the one most familiar to him and that was his own.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 13, 2010, 05:31:07 PM
I gotta say im sure smokey was someone before MIB... as jacob being the only other person on the island he's used MIB's face as a way to communicate with him, and to voice his dead brothers concern of leaving... we cant truely believe that momma (who came to the island by accident) was the First protector of the light... someone had to be there to show her the ropes and the rules... so if she wasnt first and smokey im assuming is the opposite of light must have have a few dead bodies to use...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 05:55:01 PM
I gotta say im sure smokey was someone before MIB... as jacob being the only other person on the island he's used MIB's face as a way to communicate with him, and to voice his dead brothers concern of leaving... we cant truely believe that momma (who came to the island by accident) was the First protector of the light... someone had to be there to show her the ropes and the rules... so if she wasnt first and smokey im assuming is the opposite of light must have have a few dead bodies to use...

Except Smokey didn't exist until Jacob threw MiB into the Light and now he has two things to protect against. That is his conundrum. He has two problems, both of which can be solved by the opposite means.

1: Keep people away from the Light. People will still land there by accident (Henry Gale, Claudia, etc.) but rarely will there be a group capable of threatening the light.

2: Keep your brother (MiB) on the island because all the good was sucked out of him and now all that is left is pure evil. Not a problem until you realize that he will always be searching for a way to kill you. With that known you need to find yourself a replacement before he DOES kill you and has nothing left to keep him on the island. So you figure you will find a bunch aof candidates and see if any of them will take up your stead when you are killed, in the process giving MiB the loophole he was so searching for.

It's a daunting task. Goes into the whole balance thing to. To objectives whose means wirk directly against one another.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 06:13:29 PM
goood point...he stabbed his mother in the back.... as we can assume most murders like this are because they cant face the person they love so they attack from behind as to not be swayed from the outcome desired....

what would have been your reaction by the way if your ticket off the rock was SLAUGHTERED and burned, your head was smashed against a rock.... no one is to know how many cracks of the head have ended in death when someone simply wanted to knock someone out... im assuming his rage and attack on her was based upon his attempted murder by psycho mommie...

and waking up to find his lifes work BURIED..and all alone to know he's never leaving because someone who KILLED his mother says so...

I agree with you there. I had considerably more sympathy for MIB after that part. And also, it seems that Mother may have even been baiting MIB to kill her in the first place, or at least saw it coming. "Go get firewood, Jacob."

But then we get into a more philisophical question of, "When is murder justified?" and well, we could debate that forever.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: goober on May 13, 2010, 06:30:18 PM
With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud  ;)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 06:40:52 PM
With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud  ;)

But Jacob couldn't see Claudia. So it's not like the times we've seen Smokey manifest as a dead person.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: goober on May 13, 2010, 06:51:11 PM
With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud  ;)

But Jacob couldn't see Claudia. So it's not like the times we've seen Smokey manifest as a dead person.

Huh? Who saw Christian besides Jack? Locke saw him with Claire and again with the Donkey wheel, but not with anyone else. Who saw Yemi besides Eko? Who saw Dave besides Hurley?... I think that smokey can appear w/o someone else seeing him... other than the target that is. Illana asked Ben who he was talking to when smokey appeared to him while he was digging his grave.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 07:03:42 PM
With ozman

Smokey existed before Jacob and his brother arrived.

Smokey played the part of Claudia... seducing Jacob's brother away from Jacob and his mother

We have seen smokey imitate dead people all through the series

The Darkness (smokey) has been wanting to be released since the beginning of time, Jacob's brother just shared the same goal of getting off the island

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people... note how Jacob could not see Claudia, but his brother could

Just thinkin' out loud  ;)

But Jacob couldn't see Claudia. So it's not like the times we've seen Smokey manifest as a dead person.

Huh? Who saw Christian besides Jack? Locke saw him with Claire and again with the Donkey wheel, but not with anyone else. Who saw Yemi besides Eko? Who saw Dave besides Hurley?... I think that smokey can appear w/o someone else seeing him... other than the target that is. Illana asked Ben who he was talking to when smokey appeared to him while he was digging his grave.

Well, Young MIB could see Claudia because he is "special". Kind of in a way that I'd assume Hurley is "special" in being able to see dead people. As far as Smokey appearing other times...Jack can't see dead people, Eko can't see dead people, and everybody who is seeing UnLocke (except Hurley) can't see dead people.

Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think Illana asked Ben who he was talking to. She just looked over at him. But her not seeing UnLocke at the time can be explained quite simply in that he was behind some bushes.

Finally, I'm not 100% sure Dave was MIB. In fact, my guess is that he wasn't, since we've seen a bunch of times where Hurley was the only one who could see someone.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 07:26:39 PM

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people...


Remember Sawyer saw young Jacob too. It appears that the glowing apparitions there appear to Candidates. Or so I imagine.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: MetalAir1 on May 13, 2010, 07:28:51 PM
I think Smokey was held by the light in some sort of jail, when Jacob throw his brother down to the light, maybe his body felt upon the glass "bottle" or whatever kept Smokey there, and freed him. But as MIB was bad cause he killed his "mother", Smokey killed him and took his body for its use, like other dead people on the island.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 13, 2010, 07:54:47 PM

Hurley seems to be the only one that can see 'real' dead people...


Remember Sawyer saw young Jacob too. It appears that the glowing apparitions there appear to Candidates. Or so I imagine.

Now that we know the identity of the kid, the fact that Sawyer saw him is one of the real head scratchers for me right now.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 14, 2010, 01:00:29 AM
I think Smokey was held by the light in some sort of jail, when Jacob throw his brother down to the light, maybe his body felt upon the glass "bottle" or whatever kept Smokey there, and freed him. But as MIB was bad cause he killed his "mother", Smokey killed him and took his body for its use, like other dead people on the island.


Okay since this is such a complicated chain of events to happen in a couple of seconds, when do you think they are going to explain this Mouse Trap chain of events?
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostfan777 on May 14, 2010, 10:49:14 AM
Why do I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over?  Maybe because I'm typing the same thing over and over!

The purpose of Mother being there (and probably others before her) was to protect the light, making sure no one finds it because most people would not be able to resist the temptation of its power.  MIB showed us from that first scene, by the excitement on his face, that he was hooked at first sight.  Mother said that to go into the light would be worse than death and that if someone were to try to gain too much of the light, it could go out forever, on the island and everywhere.  We saw what happened when MIB's body, voluntarily or not, entered the cave.  If the smoke monster existed before that moment, wouldn't Mother have told Jacob that keeping it on the island was also part of his duties?  She didn't tell him about the smoke because it was 'created' only then after she was dead.  She had never seen the consequences of someone entering the light because she had successfully kept it from happening before.  The creation of smokie itself, ironically, was what Jacob was supposed to be avoiding by keeping people out of the cave in the first place! (Nice job Jake, and on your first day!)  Bottom line, MIB wanted to 'use' the power of the light for his own benefit, exactly what Mother had warned them about.  With Jacob's help (again, thanks bro), MIB got just what he wanted, only it was more than he bargained for.

One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?  I know we have seen things on this show that we were told we wouldn't see (ATL's, time travel); in fact I wouldn't have been surprised if aliens landed also before it was all over, but the 'rules' about who can kill and be killed and who can't are a plotline from THIS SEASON.  And Mother told us THIS WEEK that these guys couldn't kill each other.  It isn't something they said years ago that they've abandoned since.  They just gave us these rules.  To say Jacob killed MIB at the cave would be ignoring two plot points they gave us in this very episode!  Sorry again for the repetition, but Smokey is MIB and MIB is Smokey.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 14, 2010, 11:08:08 AM
Why do I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over?  Maybe because I'm typing the same thing over and over!

The purpose of Mother being there (and probably others before her) was to protect the light, making sure no one finds it because most people would not be able to resist the temptation of its power.  MIB showed us from that first scene, by the excitement on his face, that he was hooked at first sight.  Mother said that to go into the light would be worse than death and that if someone were to try to gain too much of the light, it could go out forever, on the island and everywhere.  We saw what happened when MIB's body, voluntarily or not, entered the cave.  If the smoke monster existed before that moment, wouldn't Mother have told Jacob that keeping it on the island was also part of his duties?  She didn't tell him about the smoke because it was 'created' only then after she was dead.  She had never seen the consequences of someone entering the light because she had successfully kept it from happening before.  The creation of smokie itself, ironically, was what Jacob was supposed to be avoiding by keeping people out of the cave in the first place! (Nice job Jake, and on your first day!)  Bottom line, MIB wanted to 'use' the power of the light for his own benefit, exactly what Mother had warned them about.  With Jacob's help (again, thanks bro), MIB got just what he wanted, only it was more than he bargained for.

One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?  I know we have seen things on this show that we were told we wouldn't see (ATL's, time travel); in fact I wouldn't have been surprised if aliens landed also before it was all over, but the 'rules' about who can kill and be killed and who can't are a plotline from THIS SEASON.  And Mother told us THIS WEEK that these guys couldn't kill each other.  It isn't something they said years ago that they've abandoned since.  They just gave us these rules.  To say Jacob killed MIB at the cave would be ignoring two plot points they gave us in this very episode!  Sorry again for the repetition, but Smokey is MIB and MIB is Smokey.

The bold part made me laugh, the rest made me thankful that there are more people around to type the very same points I feel I keep typing.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostlady on May 14, 2010, 11:20:06 AM
Why do I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over?  Maybe because I'm typing the same thing over and over!

The purpose of Mother being there (and probably others before her) was to protect the light, making sure no one finds it because most people would not be able to resist the temptation of its power.  MIB showed us from that first scene, by the excitement on his face, that he was hooked at first sight.  Mother said that to go into the light would be worse than death and that if someone were to try to gain too much of the light, it could go out forever, on the island and everywhere.  We saw what happened when MIB's body, voluntarily or not, entered the cave.  If the smoke monster existed before that moment, wouldn't Mother have told Jacob that keeping it on the island was also part of his duties?  She didn't tell him about the smoke because it was 'created' only then after she was dead.  She had never seen the consequences of someone entering the light because she had successfully kept it from happening before.  The creation of smokie itself, ironically, was what Jacob was supposed to be avoiding by keeping people out of the cave in the first place! (Nice job Jake, and on your first day!)  Bottom line, MIB wanted to 'use' the power of the light for his own benefit, exactly what Mother had warned them about.  With Jacob's help (again, thanks bro), MIB got just what he wanted, only it was more than he bargained for.

One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?   I know we have seen things on this show that we were told we wouldn't see (ATL's, time travel); in fact I wouldn't have been surprised if aliens landed also before it was all over, but the 'rules' about who can kill and be killed and who can't are a plotline from THIS SEASON.  And Mother told us THIS WEEK that these guys couldn't kill each other.  It isn't something they said years ago that they've abandoned since.  They just gave us these rules.  To say Jacob killed MIB at the cave would be ignoring two plot points they gave us in this very episode!  Sorry again for the repetition, but Smokey is MIB and MIB is Smokey.

EXACTLY!!!
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: ozman776 on May 14, 2010, 01:00:41 PM
Im going alllllll the way back to season 3? when they give 'colleen " a viking funeral to possibly show and maybe start a list of whom Smokey can and cant use as a body....
if we are to now believe that smokey can assume the likeness of any DEAD person, then maybe the others knew of this and deliberately made it impossible for smokey to infiltrate/trick/mind F&^% with them by coming back as colleen...

reason for the post is to highlight that TPTB are the ones who allow grey to exist by revealing that smokey was not only MIB.. but also Christian...Yemmi...Locke etc

and if "IT" can play the part of soooo many characters..then whats to say "IT": isnt playing the part of MIB...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: BurkRoyer on May 14, 2010, 07:48:12 PM
We know that people still exist on the island, even when there body is lifeless (and buried).  Hurley sees them.  And Locke told Jake that they didn't lose his his father... they only lost his body.  Why is it so hard to accept that a person can still exist without a body.  Most religions believe this.  So why can't smokey be the MIB without his body...
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 14, 2010, 11:49:48 PM
Im going alllllll the way back to season 3? when they give 'colleen " a viking funeral to possibly show and maybe start a list of whom Smokey can and cant use as a body....
if we are to now believe that smokey can assume the likeness of any DEAD person, then maybe the others knew of this and deliberately made it impossible for smokey to infiltrate/trick/mind F&^% with them by coming back as colleen...

reason for the post is to highlight that TPTB are the ones who allow grey to exist by revealing that smokey was not only MIB.. but also Christian...Yemmi...Locke etc

and if "IT" can play the part of soooo many characters..then whats to say "IT": isnt playing the part of MIB...

Because they came out and said that IT is MiB. And they have told us in the Ep that Jacob can't Kill MiB. I fully believe your point about Colleen, but MiB IS Smokey. No two ways about it. This is not just another person he is impersonating. He is the one who used to have a body, Used to have a crazy Mother. MiB was saying this about himself, not John Locke.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 15, 2010, 01:09:44 AM
We know that people still exist on the island, even when there body is lifeless (and buried).  Hurley sees them.  And Locke told Jake that they didn't lose his his father... they only lost his body.  Why is it so hard to accept that a person can still exist without a body.  Most religions believe this.  So why can't smokey be the MIB without his body...

Dude, you just said in 3 lines what I havn't been able to express in at least a dozen posts. You always have a way of knocking it out of the park. Well said.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: Holland34 on May 15, 2010, 04:53:35 AM
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and their explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: opgelost on May 15, 2010, 07:52:02 AM
I post this again, because it has so much of Lost in it.
The picture of Anubis feeding Smoky as an offer, Smoky taking the form of other people and the hurleybird,
a part of the dead person stays with the body, that's why Smoky has the memories of Christian and Locke,
Smoky never be named by his mother or Jacob, Smoky as the shadow.

http://www.philae.nu/akhet/KaBa.html
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 15, 2010, 01:21:35 PM
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 18, 2010, 05:48:02 PM
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

I finally got around to listening to the last official Lost podcast with Darlton, and they did kind of address this issue. Unfortunately for me and my theory/arguement, in the podcast, they seemed to suggest that Jacob didn't directly kill MIB. It was more Jacob just throwing him in the water and whatever happened in the cave is seperate. So basically, they indicated that it was highly likely that MIB did die in the cave. Of course they don't come out and say it directly, but after listening to them...I'm not as convinced as I was before.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 18, 2010, 07:01:15 PM
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

I finally got around to listening to the last official Lost podcast with Darlton, and they did kind of address this issue. Unfortunately for me and my theory/arguement, in the podcast, they seemed to suggest that Jacob didn't directly kill MIB. It was more Jacob just throwing him in the water and whatever happened in the cave is seperate. So basically, they indicated that it was highly likely that MIB did die in the cave. Of course they don't come out and say it directly, but after listening to them...I'm not as convinced as I was before.

I guess I need to listen to this again, because I got the opposite out of it. I feel like it would go directly against most of the things they have stated in the past about the rules and death. In Meet Kevin Johnson, Michaels wouldn't have killed himself, the bullet would have. Stuff like that. The bomb in the sub would have gone off because MiB didn't kill them, the bomb did. Stuff like that. I don't know. I am sticking to MiB = Smokey.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 18, 2010, 07:35:51 PM
For what it's worth, my answer is "yes" (but it doesn't seem to be an option).

I don't think it is cut and dry either way.  Is Locke dead?  Darlton has stated unequivocally yes.  However, there is someone walking around in his body with his memories.  Does that actually make him Locke?  Presumably not.  In the same way, Smokie could have taken over MiB body and thoughts.  While Darlton has said that MiB and Smokie are one in the same, that was always in the context of what we had known to that point.  As viewers, we've only know the post-fall down into the cavern MiB who, when he takes a human form, clearly is Smokie.  There's been no need to try and address it otherwise before this episode.  Even at that, they are currently calling him Locke.  Not Flocke.  Not MiB.  Not Esau.  Just Locke (and there explanation is that it's just easier for reference sake.)

To address at least one concern that this will bring up:
- There is nothing to say that Jacob killed his brother, rather the actual fall into the cavern took care of that.  Splitting hairs?  Yep... but it falls into the same gray area of Flocke putting the bomb on the sub with all the candidates when he couldn't kill them.  (Even this will spark argument, so I will leave it at that.)

Now, here's why I'm not completely on board that MiB and Smokie aren't the same.  Stealing Lostfans quote, "One last point, if MIB was instantly killed by an existing smoke monster, how in the world is that a fate 'worse than death'?"  I think that is also a very compelling question.  Another reason is that the story actually gets fairly convoluted if its not MiB.  If not, where did Smokie originally come from?

Being that the cave held both "life" and "death" (according to the murderous "Mom"), the light could have killed MiB while creating a new form that took on much of MiB's essence.  Does that actually make it MiB or something new?  Not sure that it matters.  (Hence my answer of "Yes".)

Yeah I get a kick out of all the "Jacob didn't kill him" Arguments. I get the reference to the bomb on the boat, but that had the interference of another person. If Sawyer hadn't pulled the wires, the bomb would not have gone off. So take Sawyer out of the equatin and your reasoning falls apart because the bomb wouldn't have killed them.

As for TPTB saying they were one in the same, this interview came immediately after Across the Sea aired. They were saying this in the context of us actually seeing Smokey "Created", which apparently is how they described the occurrence with the light.

I finally got around to listening to the last official Lost podcast with Darlton, and they did kind of address this issue. Unfortunately for me and my theory/arguement, in the podcast, they seemed to suggest that Jacob didn't directly kill MIB. It was more Jacob just throwing him in the water and whatever happened in the cave is seperate. So basically, they indicated that it was highly likely that MIB did die in the cave. Of course they don't come out and say it directly, but after listening to them...I'm not as convinced as I was before.

I guess I need to listen to this again, because I got the opposite out of it. I feel like it would go directly against most of the things they have stated in the past about the rules and death. In Meet Kevin Johnson, Michaels wouldn't have killed himself, the bullet would have. Stuff like that. The bomb in the sub would have gone off because MiB didn't kill them, the bomb did. Stuff like that. I don't know. I am sticking to MiB = Smokey.

I was expecting one answer in the podcast, but they left me scratching my head. I'm still leaning more towards MIB = Smokey also, but now I'm not as sure as I was before. Perhaps its one of those cases where 2 things are equally true...like MIB died in the cave, but was reborn as Smokey. Mother did mention rebirth.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 19, 2010, 04:04:54 AM
OK after "What They Died For" I'm back 100% in the MIB = Smokey camp. The whole scene with Jacob, although I'm sure someone can argue it differently, put the final seal on it for me. I may still be proven wrong in the end, but I'm sticking with MIB = Smokey.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostfan777 on May 19, 2010, 10:06:16 AM
OK after "What They Died For" I'm back 100% in the MIB = Smokey camp. The whole scene with Jacob, although I'm sure someone can argue it differently, put the final seal on it for me. I may still be proven wrong in the end, but I'm sticking with MIB = Smokey.

Exactly, Jacob talked about the monster as if it were his brother and that he 'did this to him'.  No question in my mind, MIB=Smokie.  The cave holds life, death and rebirth.  What more do we want?  MIB's body died and his spirit was reborn as Smokie.  He is the dark, and the light is the....uh.... light!
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: Holland34 on May 19, 2010, 01:29:44 PM
OK after "What They Died For" I'm back 100% in the MIB = Smokey camp. The whole scene with Jacob, although I'm sure someone can argue it differently, put the final seal on it for me. I may still be proven wrong in the end, but I'm sticking with MIB = Smokey.

Exactly, Jacob talked about the monster as if it were his brother and that he 'did this to him'.  No question in my mind, MIB=Smokie.  The cave holds life, death and rebirth.  What more do we want?  MIB's body died and his spirit was reborn as Smokie.  He is the dark, and the light is the....uh.... light!
I think this is where I am at... the rest of the debate is semantics. (Not meaning that in a bad way.)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: lostfan777 on May 19, 2010, 01:55:27 PM
OK after "What They Died For" I'm back 100% in the MIB = Smokey camp. The whole scene with Jacob, although I'm sure someone can argue it differently, put the final seal on it for me. I may still be proven wrong in the end, but I'm sticking with MIB = Smokey.

Exactly, Jacob talked about the monster as if it were his brother and that he 'did this to him'.  No question in my mind, MIB=Smokie.  The cave holds life, death and rebirth.  What more do we want?  MIB's body died and his spirit was reborn as Smokie.  He is the dark, and the light is the....uh.... light!
I think this is where I am at... the rest of the debate is semantics. (Not meaning that in a bad way.)

Of course not, I would never suggest you are anti-semantic!   ;D
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: LostinLock on May 21, 2010, 04:55:04 PM
Sorry if this has been said but don't have time or patience to read back.

Jacob's brother is dead he was not dead when he went into the cave he was passed out.  The mother said never to go in there (for a reason) as we see when the smoke monster comes out. It took whatever life force it needed before disposing of the physical being.  Ergo the body on the trees.

So the physical body of Jacob's brother is gone, but Cerebus lives on and uses what it needs to achieve it's goal.  The answer will be provided in the final hours of the show.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 21, 2010, 09:55:21 PM
Sorry if this has been said but don't have time or patience to read back.

Jacob's brother is dead he was not dead when he went into the cave he was passed out.  The mother said never to go in there (for a reason) as we see when the smoke monster comes out. It took whatever life force it needed before disposing of the physical being.  Ergo the body on the trees.

So the physical body of Jacob's brother is gone, but Cerebus lives on and uses what it needs to achieve it's goal.  The answer will be provided in the final hours of the show.

But that kind of goes against what Mother said that going in there would be a "fate worse than death". Therefore MIB is not dead, therefore MIB=Cerberus.

Then again, Jacob and Mother could be wrong, and you could be right.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: Holland34 on May 22, 2010, 03:37:13 AM
In re-watching this week's episode again tonight, one of the things that jumped out at me was Locke's answer about why he doesn't fly everywhere... he likes the feeling of his feet on the ground similar to when he was alive.  That definitely implies that MiB and Smokie really are one and the same.  Obviously, I am not perfectly convinced, but I have been mostly swayed.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: LostinLock on May 22, 2010, 04:59:40 AM
Sorry if this has been said but don't have time or patience to read back.

Jacob's brother is dead he was not dead when he went into the cave he was passed out.  The mother said never to go in there (for a reason) as we see when the smoke monster comes out. It took whatever life force it needed before disposing of the physical being.  Ergo the body on the trees.

So the physical body of Jacob's brother is gone, but Cerebus lives on and uses what it needs to achieve it's goal.  The answer will be provided in the final hours of the show.

But that kind of goes against what Mother said that going in there would be a "fate worse than death". Therefore MIB is not dead, therefore MIB=Cerberus.

Then again, Jacob and Mother could be wrong, and you could be right.
Well it is a fate worse than death.  I think the confusion lies in the fact that there was a physical being and that is gone and layed to rest in the caves.  So my implication that he is dead is to the physical part that is dead , but what came out of the depth of the light and island is Cerebus/Smokey and in it contains Jacob's brother. 

Remember that bodies had to be buried and it links back to Cerebus and taking them and possibly using them.
 

Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 23, 2010, 02:53:33 AM
Well if anyone watched the re-airing of the pilot episode today, about 4-5 times throughout the episode, the pop-ups said that the smoke monster was MIB. I know I've argued about the validity of the pop-ups, but when something is reapeated that many times, I think they mean what they say. The smoke monster is MIB.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: LouE68 on May 23, 2010, 02:59:52 AM
Well if anyone watched the re-airing of the pilot episode today, about 4-5 times throughout the episode, the pop-ups said that the smoke monster was MIB. I know I've argued about the validity of the pop-ups, but when something is reapeated that many times, I think they mean what they say. The smoke monster is MIB.
Just like smokey = MIB TPTB also stated MIB = Locke..to them...even though they are different personas/characters....they are still the same antagonist...if we can safely call him the antagonist...=)
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: CaseyMac on May 23, 2010, 05:02:10 AM
Well if anyone watched the re-airing of the pilot episode today, about 4-5 times throughout the episode, the pop-ups said that the smoke monster was MIB. I know I've argued about the validity of the pop-ups, but when something is reapeated that many times, I think they mean what they say. The smoke monster is MIB.
Just like smokey = MIB TPTB also stated MIB = Locke..to them...even though they are different personas/characters....they are still the same antagonist...if we can safely call him the antagonist...=)

Hold on a sec, Tex. Let's not compare apples or oranges here. If TPTB said MIB=Locke, it was before the big reveal at the season finale that made our brains explode. In fact, I don't think they ever said MIB was Locke. They likely only called the Ajira Locke, "Locke".

On the other hand, they have already shown the backstory of MIB. Unless there is going to be a major 180 after what they just showed us a couple episodes ago, I really don't think you can compare the 2.
Title: Re: Is MIB dead or Smokey?
Post by: LostinLock on May 23, 2010, 08:59:12 AM
Actually the enhanced episode stated what I have been saying over and over again.   The Smoke Monster is Jacob's brother.  He has taken the form of Locke and he did that to achieve his goals to date.  Smoke Monster even stated why he took that body.

Locke is dead his form is being used as a housing for the smoke monster.

Not to hard to understand as it has been told us over and over. ;)