Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x14 => Topic started by: MachThree on May 12, 2010, 03:49:24 AM

Title: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: MachThree on May 12, 2010, 03:49:24 AM
I gotta say, this episode was not very good, and since it was (apparently) such a key episode in the series, that gave us (non)-answers to a lot of questions, and probably the only answer's we're getting, man... its not a happy time to be a Lost fan, IMHO...

a) the script and the acting felt awkward, especially the beginning before Jacob and MiB grew up - I can't blame them in a way, how to tell this sort of epic nature of the whole show in 42 minutes, but maybe it was just a bad idea to tell this part of the story this way.

b) Jacob's predecessor is just some semi-insane woman who steals babies, murders their mother and refuses to offer any good explanation for anything.  Honestly, we really know little more than we did before about the nature of the island and it seems that any hope of this being answered is gone.

c) the heart of the island is just a pool of light, and we weren't really told in any meaningful way what it is
  - life, death, or whatever, that's so bloody ambiguous it would have been better not to have been told about it.  Its also just plain silly, IMHO.

d) Jacob killed his brother, or condemned him to a fate worse than death (I'm not even sure) simply because he wanted to leave the island.  No reason given by Jacob's "mother" as to why she won't let him leave.  I think its a huge mistake not to detail this.

e) The frozen donkey wheel is just some sort of device no-name MiB wants to couple to the light source to allow him to leave the island.  Why the light or the donkey wheel would let him do that or work in that way, totally unexplained.  How he figured that out or why he thought that?  Totally unexplained.

f) Jacob's "mom" destroys the village of the pre-Others, and destroys MiB's tunnel to the light source.  Meaning the frozen donkey wheel was buried before it was completed.  So how did it get completed?

g) If the "pre-Others" are so evil and bad or what not, and the island needs protecting from them, why did "mom" wait 30+ years to kill them?

h) The "rules" between Jacob and MiB are simply that they can't kill each other, for no other reason that "mom" "made it that way".  Why did mom make it that way, and don't we deserve a better explanation than that?  Yeesh.

i)  Did MiB really become the smoke monster, or did (as someone posted in another thread) Jacob release the bad energy under the island by throwing MiB's unconcious body in there?  Therefore smokey is not really Jacob's brother?

j) The "flashbacks" to Jack, Kate and Locke in the cave felt like Darlton manifesting a need to rub it in to the audience that "hey, we knew what we were doing all along, see?"  What, the audience wouldn't have gotten the significance of Jacob burying "mom" and MiB in the cave with the black and white stones unless they shoved a flashback in our face?  Worse, the whole idea that this proved anything in terms of who knew what, when, feels like a stretch.  I know Darlton have admitted that specifics were not known that early, and that while they had some ideas, it didn't really get detailed out until after season 1, but even beyond that, they could have had anyone be buried in those caves and said they knew it all along, didn't have to be "mom" and MiB.   

k) there were interviews with Darlton after the Candidate how they were bragging like "ok, after tonight no one should have any doubt that MiB is freaking evil".  After "Across The Sea", they did a 180 - they make Jacob seem like little more than a unloved, naive jerk who kills his brother in a rage, and MiB comes off as almost sympathetic in this episode.  MiB is pissed off at "mom" for all the right reasons, wants to explore the world and learn more than just what he can see on the Island and what "mom" tells him.  Meanwhile, Jacob is too blinded by his mother and his lack of worldly experience to see things as they really are.  Which makes little sense because he's intelligent enough to feel "mom" loves him less than his brother.  Its Jacob who ought to have animosity towards "mom" a lot more than MiB.   

Anyhow, sorry for the long rant.  I am a huge Lost fan, just very unhappy with this episode.  We'll see how it goes, but I fear this is sadly the episode where Lost might have jumped the Dharma Shark for real.    Here's hoping I'm wrong and that the last two episodes are better.  I'll still be watching, we've come too far now not to.       
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 04:21:47 AM
a) I'll have to just agree to disagree. I thought the acting was brilliant by all 3 of the main characters this episode.

b) whoever, or whatever 'Mother' is...she's much more than just some crazy baby stealer. I mean, would have have felt better if they said she was from Krypton? Personally, I think any detailed explaination they could have given on who exactly she is other than the Protector of the Island would have been a disappointment.

c) The Cave is like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, if you describe it as something so great it is beyond words, then you have to leave it at that. The intangible has the ability to be exponentially greater than the tangible. Case in point: Midichlorians in Star Wars. Giving an explaination of the Force in that way took alot away from it.

d) Jacob condemned his brother to a fate worse than death because he killed 'Mother'. Jacob may have been acting in a very human way in getting justice or revenge the only way he knew how...but he is human.

e) How the donkey wheel works...see Midichlorians. (But I do agree that it's pretty amazing how somebody figured that out)

f) The Donkey Wheel appearantly gets made later, either by MIB or the next group of people to the Island.

g) Why wait 30 years? She only killed them once they tried to tap into the light of the Island. It was her job to protect it, and she did exactly that.

h) We'll have to figure out the reason why for the rules on our own it seems. I mean, it can be explained as simply more than a plot device, just havn't figured it out yet, but someone will.

i) I'm not buying the theory that Smokey is not MIB. MIB told Richard that Jacob took his body, well we just saw how that happened.

j) Yeah, the flashbacks at the end were a little heavy handed, then again, they played just enough of the scene to have Locke show up, which was pretty cool.

k) I agree with you a bit, that this episode actually creates more sympathy for MIB, however, 'Mother' never got a chance to explain to MIB anything because he broke the cardinal rule of trying to tap into the light. Then when 'Mother' corked that plan, he killed her. Alot of people seem to just accept that as being ok, but if she was the one with answers...then you ask her questions. You don't stab her in the back, both literally and symbolically.

P.S. My only disappointment is that they drop this crazy episode on us, then we only have 1 more before the finale. These last few hours are going to be at a pretty furious pace.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Barringer on May 12, 2010, 04:39:18 AM
I thought the writers tried fairly hard to imply without outright stating that the smoke monster is Jacob's brother, and not just a pre-existing entity taking his form, with it telling Richard that Jacob took its body, the mother saying she made it so they can't kill each other, and her explaining that you don't die if you go into the light, but something worse happens.

I also thought it made sense that she killed the village when she did. She asked the man in black if the other people had seen the light, and when he told her they had and had ideas about using it, that's when she knew she had to kill them. It also seemed like she didn't *want* to kill them, but knew she had to.

This thing about the protector of the island protecting this light actually makes sense in light of the truce between the hostiles and DHARMA. I was reading over it on Lostpedia, and one of Richard's conditions:

"If the DHARMA Initiative digs or drills any more than ten meters into the ground, even in their designated territory, the truce is violated."
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: WhatThe on May 12, 2010, 04:58:58 AM
a) the script and the acting felt awkward, especially the beginning before Jacob and MiB grew up - I can't blame them in a way, how to tell this sort of epic nature of the whole show in 42 minutes, but maybe it was just a bad idea to tell this part of the story this way.
Couldn't agree more. From a series that has given us some amazing acting in characters of Ben and Locke (just for starters), the two kids and the insane "mom" were incredibly weak. And while I understand them speaking in English for the sake of the viewing audience, they ended up sounding like they were from Toledo lol. Even when they spoke Latin, it came off as incredibly fake. They should have hired an actress who could have spoken with an accent a little less banal than the one they hired.


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b) Jacob's predecessor is just some semi-insane woman who steals babies, murders their mother and refuses to offer any good explanation for anything.  Honestly, we really know little more than we did before about the nature of the island and it seems that any hope of this being answered is gone.

Agree there, too.


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c) the heart of the island is just a pool of light, and we weren't really told in any meaningful way what it is
  - life, death, or whatever, that's so bloody ambiguous it would have been better not to have been told about it.  Its also just plain silly, IMHO.

Also agree here. I would have preferred not being shown the light peeking out through the rocks and the glow from the cave, etc, etc. When I saw the cave for the first time I literally said out loud "Well, this looks stupid" lol.


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d) Jacob killed his brother, or condemned him to a fate worse than death (I'm not even sure) simply because he wanted to leave the island.  No reason given by Jacob's "mother" as to why she won't let him leave.  I think its a huge mistake not to detail this.

Actually, Jacob killed his brother because his brother killed their mother. And because Jacob apparently has one hell of a temper lol. And I assumed that the "mother" wouldn't let them leave because she needed them there to be the next island protectors, and thought that convincing them that nothing else outside of the island existed would make keeping them there easier.


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e) The frozen donkey wheel is just some sort of device no-name MiB wants to couple to the light source to allow him to leave the island.  Why the light or the donkey wheel would let him do that or work in that way, totally unexplained.  How he figured that out or why he thought that?  Totally unexplained.

Yeah, that NEEDED an explanation other than the incredibly generic explanation of "These guys found areas on the island where metal acts different...so they dug holes, saw the light, and now want to make a teleportation device from it." What, was the ship that wrecked full of physicists or something?


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f) Jacob's "mom" destroys the village of the pre-Others, and destroys MiB's tunnel to the light source.  Meaning the frozen donkey wheel was buried before it was completed.  So how did it get completed?

g) If the "pre-Others" are so evil and bad or what not, and the island needs protecting from them, why did "mom" wait 30+ years to kill them?

Agree with both, again. My only response would be that "mom" actually did not do all of that, and that she summoned Somkie like Ben did a few seasons ago.


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h) The "rules" between Jacob and MiB are simply that they can't kill each other, for no other reason that "mom" "made it that way".  Why did mom make it that way, and don't we deserve a better explanation than that?  Yeesh.

Yeah, I'm guessing that mom "made it" so that they couldn't hurt each other by making them both candidates. But when Jacob's brother joined the tribe of crash survivors, he lost his "candidate" status, and thus the rules between him and Jacob were no longer valid. So in my eyes, "mom" didn't actually do anything herself to make it so that they can't hurt each other, but she knew that making them both candidates to take her place would cause that to happen. Or something. I don't know lol.


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i)  Did MiB really become the smoke monster, or did (as someone posted in another thread) Jacob release the bad energy under the island by throwing MiB's unconcious body in there?  Therefore smokey is not really Jacob's brother?

I believe it's the latter, especially after the talk MiB had with Jack:

JACK: Look just like him.

LOCKE: Does it bother you?

JACK: No, what bothers me is I don't have any idea what the hell you are.

LOCKE: Sure you do.

[Jack kneels.]

JACK: Why John Locke?

LOCKE: Because he was stupid enough to believe that he'd been brought here for a reason. Because he pursued that belief until it got him killed. And because you were kind enough to bring his body back here in a nice wooden box.

JACK: He had to be dead before you could look like him.

LOCKE: That's right.


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j) The "flashbacks" to Jack, Kate and Locke in the cave felt like Darlton manifesting a need to rub it in to the audience that "hey, we knew what we were doing all along, see?"  What, the audience wouldn't have gotten the significance of Jacob burying "mom" and MiB in the cave with the black and white stones unless they shoved a flashback in our face?  Worse, the whole idea that this proved anything in terms of who knew what, when, feels like a stretch.  I know Darlton have admitted that specifics were not known that early, and that while they had some ideas, it didn't really get detailed out until after season 1, but even beyond that, they could have had anyone be buried in those caves and said they knew it all along, didn't have to be "mom" and MiB.   

Agree here, too lol. The flashback to Jack and Kate in the cave was completely unnecessary, and actually made the moment a little less potent. It's weird, because many times the show offers next to zilch in the way of solid, dependable answers to things...and then here they go overboard beating us over the head to announce "SEE THAT? THAT'S ADAM AND EVE, FOLKS! DID YOU CATCH THAT? HUH? DID YOU?" lol...

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k) there were interviews with Darlton after the Candidate how they were bragging like "ok, after tonight no one should have any doubt that MiB is freaking evil".  After "Across The Sea", they did a 180 - they make Jacob seem like little more than a unloved, naive jerk who kills his brother in a rage, and MiB comes off as almost sympathetic in this episode.  MiB is pissed off at "mom" for all the right reasons, wants to explore the world and learn more than just what he can see on the Island and what "mom" tells him.  Meanwhile, Jacob is too blinded by his mother and his lack of worldly experience to see things as they really are.  Which makes little sense because he's intelligent enough to feel "mom" loves him less than his brother.  Its Jacob who ought to have animosity towards "mom" a lot more than MiB.   

Good point, and I didn't like how they said "Locke's motives become clearer" as a teaser for this episode. You mean all he REALLY wants to do is take a vacation? lol...What, if he does leave the island is MiB gonna show up in Disneyland wearing a Goofy cap and riding the Pirates Of The Carribean ride? He just wants to have a 2nd chance at a childhood his crazy mother denied him?

Both Jacob and Widmore have given the intense impression that MiB leaving the island spells incredible doom for the entire human race. It would have been nice if we got a peek into this flashback episode as to why that is.

Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2010, 07:56:20 AM
Maybe since MiB went into the Spring of Light, Smokey is carrying the "Light of the island" and if he leaves the light will go out? C.J. Craig Mother did say bad things would happen if the light went out.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: lostlady on May 12, 2010, 08:01:24 AM
Maybe since MiB went into the Spring of Light, Smokey is carrying the "Light of the island" and if he leaves the light will go out? C.J. Craig Mother did say bad things would happen if the light went out.

That is a good explaination. It would have only taken one or two lines of dialogue to put something like that into the show last night. I don't know why they didn't answer such an important question
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: muggle_born on May 12, 2010, 08:18:00 AM
Yeah, the kids did all right in their acting--they are only kids, after all, but the lady from West Wing was downright terrible, and I usually like that actress.  The glowing light was lame not only in its inherent lameness that none of us needs to explain to each other, but insomuch that in the third to last episode it's brought in out of the blue that the island is the source of all... everything in the entire, what... universe?  There's a little bit of that light inside every man?  I could have loved this episode.  I still enjoyed watching this backstory, but it seemed poorly done.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: DharmaCakes on May 12, 2010, 08:39:00 AM
YUP! I feel incredibly let down.

I thought that even though we were getting “answers” they weren’t even questions I cared about anymore. Part of mythology is NOT knowing why, so I'm suspecting I will not be satisfied with the ending. It all felt very contrived to me.

I kinda liked how they were showing who Adam and Eve were... but why have they begun treating the audience as if we're morons. It was really lame to show the clips of Jack and Kate finding them. I mean come on! Like we didn't all remember that scene as he was placing them there? If your mind didn't flash to that scene as you saw MIB doing that, you aren't a true fan. Now after 5 years the show is going to start treating the viewers like morons, I'm insulted!  Part of the brilliance of the show is that (unlike most shows) it credits its audience with intelligence. So that upset me (if you can't tell)!

I’m not going to stop watching now... I'm still giving the show until the end. I've come this far, I'm not going to give up now. Just lower my expectations maybe.... Think maybe they're just trying to make it so that the idea of the show coming to an end is easier to swallow?? :)
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: thebeann on May 12, 2010, 09:27:52 AM
I'm going with CaseyMac on this one. I thought it was a great episode and some key things answered. And how can you talk about the acting with people like Emily DeRavin on the show? She sucks! The only actress worse than her is Maggie Grace and by the power of Greystone we were thankfully relieved of that mess early on.

The best thing about this episode is that they brought us back to the skeletons in Season 1, which reassured me that D & C had a master plan all along. Yeah, they probably made up some stuff, but the core plot remains intact. Down to Locke and Walt playing backgammon with black and white stones....
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2010, 09:31:04 AM
I think the acting of the kids was fine. They were trying to protray innocent children who were ignorant to the world around them. "A ship, whats that?" "There is nothing across the sea"
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: bfth on May 12, 2010, 09:43:09 AM
Husband turned to me last night and said, "Did I just waste 6 years of my life?"

Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 12, 2010, 09:52:54 AM
I understand they wanted to give a background of these 2 characters they introduced to us, but I would have rather watched an episode that showed Dharma finding and setting up on the island and how they came to be. They were such a huge part of the show and it seems like TPTB just forgot about them. I don't get that at all. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: james_sawyer on May 12, 2010, 09:58:01 AM
feels like i'm the only person who liked this episode  . ::)
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Writers_Strike on May 12, 2010, 10:13:56 AM
feels like i'm the only person who liked this episode  . ::)

I  liked it too, why show how Dharma got set up? That will not tells us what the island is and where smokey came from. They already showed us Dharma in '77 building and drilling, how much more do you want?
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 10:34:06 AM
I thought the writers tried fairly hard to imply without outright stating that the smoke monster is Jacob's brother, and not just a pre-existing entity taking his form,

OR, it is a page from Fringe - when something comes from one universe, it must trade places with the something from the "other side."  MIB was "traded" for smokie in the tunnel/universe of light?
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 11:06:11 AM
I agree with the feeling disappointed camp.

To me this episode took great lengths to walk us to the conclusion that the Jacob - MIB relationship was not as simple as good versus evil:  it is innocence versus knowledge (the more accurate Garden of Eden conflict).  That just means that the motivation for these two for this whole season (up to last night's episode) was a straw man.  Now, maybe that was worth the journey, but I was never in the simple good versus evil camp, so knew SOMETHING like this had to be coming.  In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.

It was 40 minutes to explain who "Adam and Eve" were. 

It was the use of another layer of questions to answer our current questions.  At this point, why give mysteries (who was Jacob and MIB's Mother - and when did she have Juno?) to answer mysteries (Who are MIB and Jacob).  Leave the original mystery that was a better mystery because it was dealing with central characters; don't substitute a new mystery that now includes characters we do not have an investment in at this hour.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 11:18:47 AM
I feel SEMI let down. I liked the answers we got, but am okay with those we didn't get. Wish they would have shown the Donkey wheel set up before filling the hole. I am okay with the ambiguity about the light, and the other ambiguities, because I think they are going to leave the rest of it up to us while giving up bits and pieces of answers as we go forward. I think they did as good a job as they could have of giving us all the answers we DID get without making it sound like Neo was talking to The Architect.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: sillysab on May 12, 2010, 11:28:02 AM
glowing light, equivalent to glowing orb of Alias fame... should have known all along this show was going no where fast.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: MachThree on May 12, 2010, 11:57:27 AM
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 01:13:13 PM
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 

Does the distinction between starting with evil motives and developing evil actions need to be made.  I don't thing MIB's original motives are intrinsically evil, but the actions taken of late seem awful.

I prefer the concept of sympathetic over pure good/evil when thinking of Jacob ad MIB. 

All the focus on MIB being evil has left out the other half of that discussion:  why are we saying Jacob is good?  What good things has he done?
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: MachThree on May 12, 2010, 01:28:41 PM
All the focus on MIB being evil has left out the other half of that discussion:  why are we saying Jacob is good?  What good things has he done?

I think that's also what many of us have been saying for a while now.  Why is it good vs evil, instead of two other opposite concepts (fate / destiny  vs. free will, for example)?  Has Jacob done anything good?  Not as far as I can tell - he brings people to the island more or less against their will, for one thing.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Geronimo Jackson on May 12, 2010, 01:29:02 PM
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 

Does the distinction between starting with evil motives and developing evil actions need to be made.  I don't thing MIB's original motives are intrinsically evil, but the actions taken of late seem awful.

I prefer the concept of sympathetic over pure good/evil when thinking of Jacob ad MIB. 

All the focus on MIB being evil has left out the other half of that discussion:  why are we saying Jacob is good?  What good things has he done?

I think we will see an evil side of Jacob there have already been hints.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Maxor127 on May 12, 2010, 02:02:01 PM
That's why I didn't read much into what they said about MIB.  I was confident that he'd have a sympathetic backstory.  All they were really saying with that comment is that MIB is the bad guy.  He's the villain of the show.  The antagonist.  In fact, in the podcast where they talk about it, they say Locke is bad... he's the antagonistic force.  They never use the word evil.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 02:17:34 PM
i agree we are going to be left with two sides of a chess board here. Depending on which side you are on the other side is evil.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
That's why I didn't read much into what they said about MIB.  I was confident that he'd have a sympathetic backstory.  All they were really saying with that comment is that MIB is the bad guy.  He's the villain of the show.  The antagonist.  In fact, in the podcast where they talk about it, they say Locke is bad... he's the antagonistic force.  They never use the word evil.

This is a very well stated opinion, and it's the one that I agree with. Just because he has a sympathetic backstory does not mean that he can't be the "bad guy" of the story. Heck, should I feel sorry for Hitler because he was failed in art school? Of course not. Granted I have more sympathy for MIB now than I did before, but it just adds more depth to his character. He's not just a 1 dimensional pure evil bad guy.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 12, 2010, 03:39:29 PM
I have to say after all this discussion and debate this episode is getting better for me. Still not blown away, but with all the ideas and theories out there I am more impressed :D
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: MachThree on May 12, 2010, 03:44:20 PM
That's why I didn't read much into what they said about MIB.  I was confident that he'd have a sympathetic backstory.  All they were really saying with that comment is that MIB is the bad guy.  He's the villain of the show.  The antagonist.  In fact, in the podcast where they talk about it, they say Locke is bad... he's the antagonistic force.  They never use the word evil.

This is a very well stated opinion, and it's the one that I agree with. Just because he has a sympathetic backstory does not mean that he can't be the "bad guy" of the story. Heck, should I feel sorry for Hitler because he was failed in art school? Of course not. Granted I have more sympathy for MIB now than I did before, but it just adds more depth to his character. He's not just a 1 dimensional pure evil bad guy.
Certainly, in any given story, the protagonists can be "evil" and the antagonists can be "good" - lots of good shows have done this to one degree or another  - The Shield, The Sopranos, The Wire, Prison Break.  

At this point, if MiB is the story's antagonist, and Jacob the or one of the protagonists, I'm fine with that.  But I'm certainly not convinced MiB is evil or Jacob is good, after last night its even more murky.  Not that it needs to be clear, necessarily.  Maybe Darlton just ought not give interviews where they tell us what we should be thinking.  
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Madam P on May 12, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
I have to say after all this discussion and debate this episode is getting better for me. Still not blown away, but with all the ideas and theories out there I am more impressed :D

Me, too, Suzanne.  I feel like I agree with just about every post on this thread, so I don't know if I feel let-down or not!   ;D

I definitely agree that Darlton ought not to give any more interviews until it is over.  That whole "you ought to be able to see now that MIB/Flocke is very very bad and has to be stopped" -- well, that just doesn't feel right to me now.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 05:19:16 PM
In a show defined by its twists, that new twists come is not all that surprising - we have been taught to question all assumptions - people who were surprised that MIB is not all bad just have not been paying attention to the structure of the show.
Actually, many of us, including myself (read some of my past posts) have been saying for a while this season that Jacob/MiB is not as clear cut as good vs. evil.  So I'm not at all surprised that this turned out to be the case.  What DOES surprise me is the way Darlton handled it outside the show - that interview they did with Doc Jensen after The Candidate last week basically saying "See?  If you don't think MiB is pure evil now that he's just killed 3 main characters, you're an idiot!"

If Darlton want to misdirect the audience within the context of the show, I'm cool with that.  For them to go out of their way to do it outside of the show, then pull the rug out from underneath it a few days later, I think is bush-league. 

Yeah I don't think that they did that at all. I still think MiB is the antagonist of the show. We are seeing very clearly that different choices lead to very different people. Here we have the story of two brothers, one loved more than the other. In the present day we are watching as one member goes around fending and thinking only of himself. He thinks people are inherently bad and corrupt. The other brother has grown into a person with a more forgiving take on people. He has watched them at their most vulnerable and their greatest times and knows that inside all people are capable of good.

In the interview they were labeling the Antagonist of the show, and that hasn;t changed. All that has changed is our view on his backstory.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: PMMJ on May 12, 2010, 05:39:29 PM
I think we will see an evil side of Jacob there have already been hints.

Like dragging ships-ful of people to the island and to their deaths, just to prove a point to his brother?
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 05:41:30 PM
I think we will see an evil side of Jacob there have already been hints.

Like dragging ships-ful of people to the island and to their deaths, just to prove a point to his brother?

Yeah, but I am not ready to call this "Evil" until we figure out how the SideLinetm ties in. If as a "Thanks for Playing" You get a new and largely improved life, then I can't say that drafting people into service for the well being of all mankind is evil
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: jkbeaulieu on May 12, 2010, 09:04:55 PM
Just a sad attempt to connect dots with a lame story, a tunnel of light?  Really?  Donkey wheels to manipulate the source of life and death?  Seems there is no real need to even try anymore.  After all, if the people don't like it so what.  We already got rich off of product.

Good? Evil? Jacob? Smokey? Who cares anymore.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 09:19:57 PM
Just a sad attempt to connect dots with a lame story, a tunnel of light?  Really?  Donkey wheels to manipulate the source of life and death?  Seems there is no real need to even try anymore.  After all, if the people don't like it so what.  We already got rich off of product.

Good? Evil? Jacob? Smokey? Who cares anymore.

Because with skies turning purple, magic mirror lighthouses, and islands going bloop, there should be perfectly scientific explainations for all that? Personally, I really liked how they showed that heart of the island, but didn't say something silly like "The core of the island is unobtanium." That would have been...how did you put it?...lame.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Madam P on May 13, 2010, 08:55:28 AM
I still think MiB is the antagonist of the show. We are seeing very clearly that different choices lead to very different people. Here we have the story of two brothers, one loved more than the other. In the present day we are watching as one member goes around fending and thinking only of himself. He thinks people are inherently bad and corrupt. The other brother has grown into a person with a more forgiving take on people. He has watched them at their most vulnerable and their greatest times and knows that inside all people are capable of good.  

The thing that's interesting about this is that the brother who thinks people are so wonderful is the the brother who didn't grow up around any people except his mom!  How can he know beans about human nature?  He's only ever seen his brother and Crazy Mom!  OK, so apparently at some point he gained the ability to hop away from the island and observe people, so maybe he did actually "live" with other people to see what was good about them.  (yet another question we didn't get answered in this eppy was how that all came about...)  And there's the Lighthouse where he did his Peeping Tom imitation.  But has he actually "lived" with people?  He seems awfully pompous and sure of himself in that beach scene, for someone who's a total loner.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 10:32:53 AM
I still think MiB is the antagonist of the show. We are seeing very clearly that different choices lead to very different people. Here we have the story of two brothers, one loved more than the other. In the present day we are watching as one member goes around fending and thinking only of himself. He thinks people are inherently bad and corrupt. The other brother has grown into a person with a more forgiving take on people. He has watched them at their most vulnerable and their greatest times and knows that inside all people are capable of good.  

The thing that's interesting about this is that the brother who thinks people are so wonderful is the the brother who didn't grow up around any people except his mom!  How can he know beans about human nature?  He's only ever seen his brother and Crazy Mom!  OK, so apparently at some point he gained the ability to hop away from the island and observe people, so maybe he did actually "live" with other people to see what was good about them.  (yet another question we didn't get answered in this eppy was how that all came about...)  And there's the Lighthouse where he did his Peeping Tom imitation.  But has he actually "lived" with people?  He seems awfully pompous and sure of himself in that beach scene, for someone who's a total loner.

true, and I think this is where the line gets drawn by the viewers. Do you agree with Jacob or MiB regarding Human Nature. I agree with Jacob, and maybe that is why I find his motives to be justifiable.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: Holland34 on May 16, 2010, 09:30:06 PM
Just testing to see what happens if you add a new comment to this thread.
Title: Re: Anyone else feel let down???
Post by: DizzyIzzy on May 17, 2010, 11:48:34 PM
I had to come here to have the episode explained, take that for what it is worth. Glad this site has been here to explain everything to me all these years...ya'll are great!