Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x14 => Topic started by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:08:50 AM

Title: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:08:50 AM
Just like TPTB to open up a can of worms.... and us Flocke fans get to restate our case of being trapped making us lash out...
so in tonights episode we learnt that MIB was visited by his REAL mom who showed him his people and was offered the option to stay or go.. he chose GO and even invited his brother to join him.... who BEAT THE CRAP out of him and believed his crazy mom over him... he never goes back and accepts visits from jacob as he spills his plans to leave and continually invited him to leave... but jacob continues to follow the crazy woman even after its revealed his only true family is his brother....

MIB is simply trying to leave and jacob/mommy have made it THEIR destiny to keep him from doing it... involving killing/lying and manipulation....

Sorry jacob fans... but MIB is not the BAD GUY ANYMORE!  deal with ya pre emptive cheers
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: on the island on May 12, 2010, 01:17:19 AM
Maybe I saw it different, but let's try this again:

MIB is no more Jacob's brother than he is John Locke now.  All of the back story on Jacob's brother is irrelevant to MIB as we now know him and have seen him previously.  MIB is not Jacob's brother.

Am I wrong about this? 
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:20:32 AM
he appears as jacobs brother in flesh form..seems to communicate as him and know jacobs rules..whatever the hell they are... and when not in smokey mode, seems to recall his earlier life as if its a normal childhood memory... so im assuming we can differenciate there being any difference from the original MIB and floke and smokey and whomevers form hes taken!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Maxor127 on May 12, 2010, 01:23:13 AM
And makes it hard to say that Jacob represents free will.  I've always disagreed with that argument.  I think Jacob creates the illusion of choice.  I wouldn't say MIB is good, but he's sympathetic.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:25:46 AM
put any person in an IMPRISONED state of mind and some break, others find it the reason to fight back.... MIB isnt the bad guy now, its up to jacob lovers to prove they did what they did for the best...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: on the island on May 12, 2010, 01:26:14 AM
Perhaps irrelevant was the wrong word, but whenever we have seen "Jacob's brother" since the end of this episode (S5 open, Ab Aeterno), we are seeing the smoke monster.  Just like MIB now is not John Locke, the MIB we have seen is not Jacob's brother.  He remembers Locke's past, but Locke is dead, Jacob's brother is dead.  Smokey has his own agenda - very different than Locke's agenda.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: losttill0208 on May 12, 2010, 01:26:43 AM
How can he be the good guy? Did you watch last weeks episode?

Jacobs brother started out with good intentions.. but the path he's taken has been far from good.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:30:19 AM
im under the understanding he knows ABOUT locke... knowing he was weak and his final thoughts were WHY???... but this smoke wrecking ball is MIB to the fullest.... it went into the hole human and came out an apparition... its goal is the same going in and coming out... he's simply using lockes body (which hes stuck in) as its a familiar person to the candidates who are between him and freedom...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Maxor127 on May 12, 2010, 01:30:28 AM
I guess it comes down to did the light turn MIB into Smokey and create him or did Smokey already exist down there and MIB's death somehow released him?  I'm going with MIB was turned into Smokey since his core memories and motivations and his interactions with Jacob are still the same.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: norville on May 12, 2010, 01:31:43 AM
MiB may have been a troubled and manipulated youth that grew into a bitter man, but that does not make him "good".  But the revelation of this episode was that MiB is DEAD, just like John Locke is dead, and he ultimately ended up as one of the bodies lying in the cave next to his mother.  Smokey inherited his memories, some of his feelings, just as we've seen with Locke.  But that "thing" is not MiB, and I don't think that "thing" is good either.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Maxor127 on May 12, 2010, 01:32:32 AM
How can he be the good guy? Did you watch last weeks episode?

Jacobs brother started out with good intentions.. but the path he's taken has been far from good.
I wouldn't say MIB is the good guy, but I wouldn't call him evil and Jacob is far from sympathetic.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:32:56 AM
MIB alive wanted to simply leave.. smokey mib simply wants to leave...FLOKE smokey simply wants to leave....
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: trodge on May 12, 2010, 01:33:51 AM
I guess it comes down to did the light turn MIB into Smokey and create him or did Smokey already exist down there and MIB's death somehow released him?  I'm going with MIB was turned into Smokey since his core memories and motivations and his interactions with Jacob are still the same.

He wanted to get off the island as a young man, as an adult and as a dead smoke monster man, thing...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: trodge on May 12, 2010, 02:02:07 AM
I just looked up the quotes from the first time we meet MIB when he's on the beach.

From him living with man and his observations, the comments in this first scene really make so much more sense.

MAN IN BLACK: Morning.

JACOB: Mornin'.

MAN IN BLACK: Mind if I join you?

JACOB: [Shaking his head] Please. Want some fish?

MAN IN BLACK: Thank you. I just ate.

[The Man in Black sits down not far away.]

JACOB: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.

MAN IN BLACK: I am. How did they find the Island?

JACOB: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

MAN IN BLACK: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

JACOB: You are wrong.

MAN IN BLACK: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

[The Man in Black stares at his compatriot.]

MAN IN BLACK: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

JACOB: Yes.

MAN IN BLACK: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

JACOB: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

MAN IN BLACK: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.

JACOB: Nice talking to you, too.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 02:07:14 AM
so are we to assume that the NEED to KEEP mib from ever leaving the island occured AFTER he became smokey.... (which i give more acceptance to) than it seeming as thou from the day they were born both were slated to live out LONG lives on the island until another protector/candidate was found/born unto them...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: LouE68 on May 12, 2010, 02:11:40 AM
It doesnt make MiB evil or good...but by him leaving could change things either releasing evil or ending the island, depending on what actually would happen if he gets off the island...we really still don't know....The question is, is MiB any worse than Jacob...both have used people and killed them...does the end justify the means...we really don't know yet...but one could hypothesis until we are blue in the face...we have to see in the end...does he get off island, or does it keep going, we really only have those two choices in this show...he either does or doesnt
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 02:16:21 AM
i understand the need to not let SMOKEY leave...but this fake mom made it seem like mib as a young child was to never leave..like it was either HER will, or someones whom we will never get to know now.... it played out like she found 2 children she could TEACH her ways to and when the time come ..one would take over her title as island light protector.... mib leaving her made the choice simple to hand the reighns to jacob.. and her wiping out an entire family of mib led to her demise at the hands of a NON EVIL person...

now jacob retains the leash that keeps him where he doesnt want to be and we are now watching what happens when jacobs leash is broken and he can start his final plans to leave for good....
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: nomteticus on May 12, 2010, 02:32:48 AM
I'm not sure Jacob is good, but he certainly believes he is good. His mother told him, and since he loved her more than anything and wanted her approval (he didn't even despise her for killing his real mom) he grew to believe that he was in fact protecting the island. He killed his brother by impulse, that doesn't really make him evil. Neither does his brother killing the crazy lady, it was clear that he was sorry afterwords.

I don't think that MIB is no longer Jacob's brother. In the discussiions he had with Jacob AFTER becoming Smokey he expressed the same contempt for people he did back when he was in the village and the same desire to leave. Smokey/Jacob's Brother/Locke has been very sincere (crazy mother, he wants to go home, the island doesn't need protecting) as to the ends, just not about the means (killing the candidates). I know I would kill the candidates if they told me I couldn't leave for no apparent reason.

Why wouldn't MIB's mother let him leave? I think it's because he really wanted him and not Jacob to become the new protector, and she was blinded by this. Letting MIB leave would not have been a problem, since a)there was Jacob to fill up the "sucker" position and b)Smokey wasn't unleashed. Was his mother afraid that MIB would return to the island with other people to get the light??? NEWSFLASH: Jacob is the one constantly bringing people to the island. And we saw what happens when you go into the light, so rationally speaking, why would the island need protecting??? Now I know that Egyptians believed that if they don't follow certain rituals every morning the sun won't come up (lol), but apart from that, protect it from what?
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: WhatThe on May 12, 2010, 02:41:29 AM
I think it was made somewhat obvious that Smokie "inhabits" the host body and takes on many of that same person's characteristics, and uses their memories for manipulative purposes. When he was appearing as Jacob's brother, he constantly told Jacob the same thing his real brother told him as they grew up together: "I want to leave the island". When Smokie took on Locke's form, he took on Locke's characteristics and mannerisms all in attempt to manipulate the Losties/candidates. It could be that he can only take on the form OF a candidate (Jacob's brother was a candidate, afterall).

But I think this episode only shows that Jacob's brother wasn't evil...not that the "thing" that has appeared as his brother since his death--and is now appearing as Locke--isn't evil. I think it most definitely is, and last week's episode just confirmed that fact.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 02:47:37 AM
I don'tsee how people are saying that MIB died. We have known before this episode, and it is directly said in this episode that Jacob and his brother can't kill each other.

So, with that as a basic foundation, there is no way that Jacob could have killed MIB by throwing him down the cave. However, immediately after we see MIB's dead body. Also, let's remember in Ab Aeterno, MIB tells Richard that Jacob "took his body".

So let's connect the dots. If MIB cannot be killed by Jacob, and we see the Smoke Monster emerge from the cave, then we see MIB's body, then that must mean that while MIB's body may be dead, his soul lives as the Smoke Monster. The Smoke Monster did not absorb MIB's memories, it is MIB's soul.

Thats the logic behind my theory anyway.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: nomteticus on May 12, 2010, 02:52:14 AM
Jacob's brother can't be dead, since his mother apparently made it out so Jacob could not kill him. So that would be a contradiction. And we know John Locke is dead, even though Smokey inhabits his body and has memories of him. So the only way this makes sense is that Smokey is Jacob's brother and he's not allowed to leave for the same reason that Titus-MIB wasn't allowed to leave (his mother was CRAZY). And if Jacob's brother is truly dead, please don't tell me that Jacob didn't kill him. If you throw someone into a pond, sure, the water kills him, not you, but you can say the same thing about bullets. So

1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother
2) Jacob turned MIB into Smokey, so Smokey is still his brother

"I had a crazy mother" CHECK
"I was a person" CHECK
"People are evil, corrupt" CHECK
"I want to go home" CHECK
"I can't kill you" (because of mom's curse) "and I have to find a loophole" CHECK
"I'll kill the candidates too" CHECK

edit: CaseyMac, that's just what I'm saying!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 02:54:04 AM
Jacob's brother can't be dead, since his mother apparently made it out so Jacob could not kill him. So that would be a contradiction. And we know John Locke is dead, even though Smokey inhabits his body and has memories of him. So the only way this makes sense is that Smokey is Jacob's brother and he's not allowed to leave for the same reason that Titus-MIB wasn't allowed to leave (his mother was CRAZY). And if Jacob's brother is truly dead, please don't tell me that Jacob didn't kill him. If you throw someone into a pond, sure, the water kills him, not you, but you can say the same thing about bullets. So

1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother
2) Jacob turned MIB into Smokey, so Smokey is still his brother

"I had a crazy mother" CHECK
"I was a person" CHECK
"People are evil, corrupt" CHECK
"I want to go home" CHECK
"I can't kill you" (because of mom's curse) "and I have to find a loophole" CHECK
"I'll kill the candidates too" CHECK

edit: CaseyMac, that's just what I'm saying!

/agree!!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: nomteticus on May 12, 2010, 02:59:15 AM
There is a way around this though: Jacob's brother fused with Smokey, and while Jacob's bro is not evil, Smokey is, and even if Flocke just wants to leave, he has to bring Smokey with him and will accidentally cause the end of the world. I think this is a ****ty explanation, but it would make sense.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: WhatThe on May 12, 2010, 03:04:21 AM
I don'tsee how people are saying that MIB died. We have known before this episode, and it is directly said in this episode that Jacob and his brother can't kill each other.

So, with that as a basic foundation, there is no way that Jacob could have killed MIB by throwing him down the cave. However, immediately after we see MIB's dead body. Also, let's remember in Ab Aeterno, MIB tells Richard that Jacob "took his body".

So let's connect the dots. If MIB cannot be killed by Jacob, and we see the Smoke Monster emerge from the cave, then we see MIB's body, then that must mean that while MIB's body may be dead, his soul lives as the Smoke Monster. The Smoke Monster did not absorb MIB's memories, it is MIB's soul.

Thats the logic behind my theory anyway.

Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries? lol...And who is to say Jacob killed his brother, perhaps whatever was inside the cave did so.

And since when can't Jacob kill his brother before they became protectors of the island? I know his mom said "I made it so that you can never hurt each other", but Jacob ended up beating the hell out of his brother that very same night--I'd say that qualifies as "hurting" lol. Since we know candidates can kill other candidates (Sawyer--who is a candidate--caused the death of three other candidates by pulling the wires on the bomb), Jacob killing his brother would have been a similar situation since both Jacob and his brother were pretty much "candidates" (their fake mom more or less marked them both as candidates after their births).
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:04:50 AM
There is a way around this though: Jacob's brother fused with Smokey, and while Jacob's bro is not evil, Smokey is, and even if Flocke just wants to leave, he has to bring Smokey with him and will accidentally cause the end of the world. I think this is a ****ty explanation, but it would make sense.

Good point. This may be one of those situations where 2 things are equally true. It is MIB's soul, but also the dark part of the heart of the Island which have voltron'd together to become what we know as the Smoke Monster.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:07:21 AM
Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries?

What I said was, his body is seperated from his soul. So while his body is dead, his soul still is among the living. We are more than simply the cells that make up our bodies. Like Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: WhatThe on May 12, 2010, 03:08:18 AM
1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother
That's not impossible. NOBODY can "kill" the Smoke Monster. Widmore's people were firing all kinds of bullets into him, he just walked up to them like the Terminator and killed the gunmen with ease. The only thing you can do is contain Smokie, either with the sonic fences or, in Jacob's case, with whatever means the island protector is given once he/she becomes the island's protector.

And it was never shown that Jacob couldn't kill his own brother.

Think about this for a moment: Ben killed the current island protector--Jacob--with that daggar. Jacob's brother killed the island protector at the time (his fake mom) with the same daggar. I don't think Ben was a candidate (or still a candidate) at the time he killed Jacob, so perhaps the human "MiB" was not a candidate at the time Jacob threw him into the cave...which would mean he COULD be killed by Jacob now that his "candidate" status was no longer in effect.

Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: nomteticus on May 12, 2010, 03:15:20 AM
Well if Jacob wouldn't have thrown his brotha into the caves, and instead would have just let him go, there would be noone to protect the island from. And Jacob (not Smokey) constantly brings new people to the island helping Smokey create that loophole. And he dies like a wimp. He's not a very good protector, now is he?
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: WhatThe on May 12, 2010, 03:15:32 AM
Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries?

What I said was, his body is seperated from his soul. So while his body is dead, his soul still is among the living. We are more than simply the cells that make up our bodies. Like Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

You said that you couldn't understand how anyone could say Jacob's brother was dead because Jacob and his brother "couldn't kill each other". Well, if the existence of a soul means the person isn't "really" dead, then MiB should have just stuck the daggar into Jacob himself...because we know Jacob's soul is still among the living.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:21:08 AM
Maybe it's the fact that Jacob's brother's skeleton has been in the cave for centuries?

What I said was, his body is seperated from his soul. So while his body is dead, his soul still is among the living. We are more than simply the cells that make up our bodies. Like Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

You said that you couldn't understand how anyone could say Jacob's brother was dead because Jacob and his brother "couldn't kill each other". Well, if the existence of a soul means the person isn't "really" dead, then MiB should have just stuck the daggar into Jacob himself...because we know Jacob's soul is still among the living.

No. Jacob is dead. Thats why Hurley talks to him.

The only thing that confuses me a bit about that is that Sawyer was able to see Jacob as a kid. But adult ghost Jacob could only be seen by Hurley. So if you are a ghost, you are dead. Also, Miles, who can talk to dead people in a different way, found out from dead Jacob how he died.

We know Jacob is dead.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2010, 10:15:03 AM
Think about this for a moment: Ben killed the current island protector--Jacob--with that daggar. Jacob's brother killed the island protector at the time (his fake mom) with the same daggar. I don't think Ben was a candidate (or still a candidate) at the time he killed Jacob, so perhaps the human "MiB" was not a candidate at the time Jacob threw him into the cave...which would mean he COULD be killed by Jacob now that his "candidate" status was no longer in effect.

I don't know if this will change your thought or not, but Ben did not kill Jacob with the special dagger, Dogen had that at the temple. Locke gave Ben a regular hunting knife as they were walking into the temple or sometime around then, and Ben stabbed him with that.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: james_sawyer on May 12, 2010, 10:25:23 AM
feel sad for  mib ..dude was just trying to get off the island  ::) ..but no they had to throw him into the cave turn him into a smokie .. now jacob is paying for creating the smokie in the first place











Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 11:24:40 AM
so are we to assume that the NEED to KEEP mib from ever leaving the island occured AFTER he became smokey.... (which i give more acceptance to) than it seeming as thou from the day they were born both were slated to live out LONG lives on the island until another protector/candidate was found/born unto them...

Jacob is stuck on the island because he took the deal from his "mom" and became "the light's" protector.  He was t keep people from it.  I think MIB COULD have left, but because he was a threat to the "light" mom stopped him.  Now that MIB is Smokey, is is "part of the light" (he was transformed by it so is part of it).  That means Jacob MUST now keep smokie on the island with the light as part of his mission.  The threat of letting MIB get to man is the same threat as letting man to the light - disbursement of knowledge.

It is all about knowledge versus innocence.  Jacob is innocence and MIB was knowledge.  Light is often a metaphor for knowledge, and in the most pure telling of the Garden of Eden Bible story, the thing God didn't want man to have was fruit from the tree of knowledge.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 11:35:07 AM
so are we to assume that the NEED to KEEP mib from ever leaving the island occured AFTER he became smokey.... (which i give more acceptance to) than it seeming as thou from the day they were born both were slated to live out LONG lives on the island until another protector/candidate was found/born unto them...

Jacob is stuck on the island because he took the deal from his "mom" and became "the light's" protector.  He was t keep people from it.  I think MIB COULD have left, but because he was a threat to the "light" mom stopped him.  Now that MIB is Smokey, is is "part of the light" (he was transformed by it so is part of it).  That means Jacob MUST now keep smokie on the island with the light as part of his mission.  The threat of letting MIB get to man is the same threat as letting man to the light - disbursement of knowledge.

It is all about knowledge versus innocence.  Jacob is innocence and MIB was knowledge.  Light is often a metaphor for knowledge, and in the most pure telling of the Garden of Eden Bible story, the thing God didn't want man to have was fruit from the tree of knowledge.

I like this reasoning here. I think initially the protector was protecting the island from the outside, and now he is protecting the outside from what HE created on the island.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 11:37:13 AM
And NO! MiB is not the good guy now. I don't trust any column of smoke no matter what color. Especially if it slams people into solid objects until they are dead. And as someone else succinctly put it, I don't think he's going to be showing up at DisneyLand with a pair of Goofy Ears on.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 11:41:59 AM
And NO! MiB is not the good guy now. I don't trust any column of smoke no matter what color. Especially if it slams people into solid objects until they are dead. And as someone else succinctly put it, I don't think he's going to be showing up at DisneyLand with a pair of Goofy Ears on.

"Good guy" might be a stretch for MIB.  In fact, that would also now be a stretch for Jacob.  Instead I would use the term sympathetic to describe both of them: flawed, but sympathetic.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 11:51:30 AM
Them as people absloutely. However what they have grown into represents exactly what the show is all about they started out as twins and now they find themselves at the opposite ends of good and evil because of the choices they made along the way.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 12:13:49 PM
So to clarify.... MIB isnt smokey at all becasue weve been led to believe that smokey is the "islands" security system??? which means its trying to protect the island... but MIB doesnt care about the island and only wants OFF... so if smokey is EVIl which ill agree with, then MIB is in fact not SMOKEY.... so to say MIB IS EVIL is incorrect, and i think a whole lot off (_>_) kissing needs to be started from all the people who got high and mighty claiming they have the final proof that MIB IS BAD end of story...

Assume the position folks and maybe wait till the end of the 2 minute warning before spouting of PROOF!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 12:34:04 PM
So to clarify.... MIB isnt smokey at all becasue weve been led to believe that smokey is the "islands" security system??? which means its trying to protect the island... but MIB doesnt care about the island and only wants OFF... so if smokey is EVIl which ill agree with, then MIB is in fact not SMOKEY.... so to say MIB IS EVIL is incorrect, and i think a whole lot off (_>_) kissing needs to be started from all the people who got high and mighty claiming they have the final proof that MIB IS BAD end of story...

Assume the position folks and maybe wait till the end of the 2 minute warning before spouting of PROOF!

This post doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Have you been watching the show at all? Still thinking Smokey is a "Security System". Yeah that ship sailed a while ago. Nah, I don't think there will be any position assuming. especially on the oders of someone who seems to think in such backwards logic. Smokey (IMHO) is everything Evil that was inside MiB manifested into physical form. So Yes MiB is Smokey (Now) and Yes, you are once again Wrong.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 12:39:52 PM
So you believe that SMOKEY is MIB and that they combined are EVIL.... sorry ya wrong.... WE see someone who wants OFF the island go INTO a hole and what comes out isnt him anymore.... he/smokey takes OVER a body so he can communicate in human form, but he can only take over a DEAD person whos goals/wants/needs are snuffed out when they die... do u believe that YEMMI was really yemi??? or that CHRISTIAN was really christian.... NO... they were a human form USED by smokey... so MIBS story ended many many years ago and smokeys who we are dealing with now... and to add further "proof" locke never wanted to leave the island, he was convinced to turn the donkey wheel, otherwise he'd be still running around the jungle playing with his new legs that work... so dont twist this for your satiusfaction... you started the MIB IS EVIL train... enjoy your ride..
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2010, 01:14:51 PM
IAJ-just making friends all over aren't you?? LOL Opie, Oz, who's next?? I'm on your side for the most part man. You just need to turn it down a notch.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:30:08 PM
weve never seen smokey as anything but BAD... most people have been defending MIB as tormented and jailed and PUSHED into actions that if left alone would never have occured.... try seeing what people are posting before you take the mightier than thou approach of talking DOWN to people... and yes ive watched the show.... from day 1 of the losties plane crash the smoke monster was portrayed as a security system.. not something that wants to LEAVE...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Maxor127 on May 12, 2010, 01:42:56 PM
Eh, I think MIB is Smokey.  I can live with him really just being a pillar of smoke that simply took the form of MIB, but given that Smokey's motivations seem completely inline with MIB and his experiences in this episode, I'm going with MIB was turned into the smoke monster.

As for who is good and evil, I still don't see Jacob as good.  Good and evil are a matter of perspective, and I agree MIB is sympathetic.  Some might see him as a murderer, and others might see him as doing what needs to be done to escape his unjust imprisonment.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:47:31 PM
im deducing that smoke monsters appearances as OTHER people who didnt go down the hole is what makes him a chameleon and no exclusively MIB... if it was a portion of MIB and his deep seeded wants and desires then why have him play other parts ((christian,yemmi etc))
either TPTB are cluelessly attaching smokey to others and confusing us to his true intention of being an island protector, or they screwed it all up by having him take over lockes body and rant on about wanting to leave which is what MIB has always wanted...
either way..smokeys intentions (which i agree are EVIL) are not the same as MIBS!!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 01:50:48 PM
So you believe that SMOKEY is MIB and that they combined are EVIL.... sorry ya wrong.... WE see someone who wants OFF the island go INTO a hole and what comes out isnt him anymore.... he/smokey takes OVER a body so he can communicate in human form, but he can only take over a DEAD person whos goals/wants/needs are snuffed out when they die... do u believe that YEMMI was really yemi??? or that CHRISTIAN was really christian.... NO... they were a human form USED by smokey... so MIBS story ended many many years ago and smokeys who we are dealing with now... and to add further "proof" locke never wanted to leave the island, he was convinced to turn the donkey wheel, otherwise he'd be still running around the jungle playing with his new legs that work... so dont twist this for your satiusfaction... you started the MIB IS EVIL train... enjoy your ride..

The one we had always referred to as "MiB" was, until this episode, a shortened way of saying, "The cloumn of black smoke that wants to kill all of our Losties." THAT is evil, I think we both agree on this. You are arguing on semantics and I won't do that because it gets nowhere. I will agree that MiB started his life as a troubled person who just wanted to leave, but now that he went down into the light that part of him that was "Just wanting to leave." is gone now. Its like Jack told Locke about Anthony Cooper. The Smoke that was released is the being we had always been referring to as MiB. I will continue to referto it as such with the understanding that at one time he was just a person with the same troubles as anyone else.

IAJ-just making friends all over aren't you?? LOL Opie, Oz, who's next?? I'm on your side for the most part man. You just need to turn it down a notch.

Yeah and I didn't even seek this one out. I just took a bot of offense to the tone in his posts (Yet again) so here goes. Anyone telling me to "Assume the position" needs to check themselves. Especially when they aren't making any sense or reading what I am responding with. Oh well, its going to be a long week.  ;D
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: jasond on May 12, 2010, 01:53:53 PM
1) either Jacob killed his brother by throwing him into the light, and Smokey is not his bro, but that's impossible since Jacob can't kill Brother
That's not impossible. NOBODY can "kill" the Smoke Monster. Widmore's people were firing all kinds of bullets into him, he just walked up to them like the Terminator and killed the gunmen with ease. The only thing you can do is contain Smokie, either with the sonic fences or, in Jacob's case, with whatever means the island protector is given once he/she becomes the island's protector.

And it was never shown that Jacob couldn't kill his own brother.

Think about this for a moment: Ben killed the current island protector--Jacob--with that daggar. Jacob's brother killed the island protector at the time (his fake mom) with the same daggar. I don't think Ben was a candidate (or still a candidate) at the time he killed Jacob, so perhaps the human "MiB" was not a candidate at the time Jacob threw him into the cave...which would mean he COULD be killed by Jacob now that his "candidate" status was no longer in effect.

Good point. It's like his diplomatic immunity was just revoked, but not by Murtaugh.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 01:55:55 PM
After this episode, I think it's hard to see things as Jacob = inherantly good, MIB = inherantly evil. However, it's more about who is doing good actions and who is doing evil actions.

If what 'Mother' said was right, in that if people try to take the Light of the Island, then they will destroy it, and therefore destroy that light that is in each individual, then it is alot like the fable of the golden goose. So just because MIB might be wrongly imprisoned, does that then justify him in killing this golden goose just so he can get out?

I think thats why MIB can be considered the 'badguy'. He will literally stop at nothing just so he can escape, and Jacob is like the protector or the prison guard, making sure the Light of the Island and in turn the Light of all Mankind remains safe.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 01:56:20 PM
So your now saying that MIB?SMOKEY is just your way of saying smokey when he hasnt been seen this year as anyone BUT locke.... and yet whenever YOU post its YOU saying MIB is EVIL and not decyphering for everyone else that what you really mean is Smokey/locke is evil which i imagine most who are defending MIB have been pushiong back at you about.... and you call my posts undecypherable.... maybe in your mind you knew what youve been saying... but to ATTACK others for their beliefs that the PERSON MIB isnt EVIl is just plain obtuse.... maybe your righteousness to be correct stems from a deep seeded issue we dont care to want to know and now your left hanging on to the idea that you are right if you explain it all better NOW after youve alienated the masses.... try reading a bit before your rants to get a better idea of what people are saying... may help after the shows finished and you have a life outside these walls.... just my 2 cents
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Hurley rocks dudes on May 12, 2010, 02:02:52 PM
im under the understanding he knows ABOUT locke... knowing he was weak and his final thoughts were WHY???... but this smoke wrecking ball is MIB to the fullest.... it went into the hole human and came out an apparition... its goal is the same going in and coming out... he's simply using lockes body (which hes stuck in) as its a familiar person to the candidates who are between him and freedom...
no i think flocke definitely has lockes memories because he knew that ben had killed him
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 02:09:28 PM
MIB is dead and died after crying over his mothers death... what smokey chooses to do with MIB's body is all smokey, none of whats left is MIB's true intentions... Jacob Killed MIB.. thats the story... what smokey chooses to say or do has nothing to do with MIB anymore... same as him talking as locke.... locke wanted to STAY.. smokey wants to rule the world across the sea...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 02:10:10 PM
So your now saying that MIB?SMOKEY is just your way of saying smokey when he hasnt been seen this year as anyone BUT locke.... and yet whenever YOU post its YOU saying MIB is EVIL and not decyphering for everyone else that what you really mean is Smokey/locke is evil which i imagine most who are defending MIB have been pushiong back at you about.... and you call my posts undecypherable.... maybe in your mind you knew what youve been saying... but to ATTACK others for their beliefs that the PERSON MIB isnt EVIl is just plain obtuse.... maybe your righteousness to be correct stems from a deep seeded issue we dont care to want to know and now your left hanging on to the idea that you are right if you explain it all better NOW after youve alienated the masses.... try reading a bit before your rants to get a better idea of what people are saying... may help after the shows finished and you have a life outside these walls.... just my 2 cents

Alright lets try to breath here. And maybe insert some punctuation. As for other people's intentions when they were saying "MiB" I cannot attest to them, as I am not a mind reader. For the most part I assumed that everyone was on the same page with our acronyms and when Jacob said to MiB (As Locke), "So I guess you found your loophole" I assumed we all knew MiB was impersonating John Locke. Then when Locke said to Ben, " I'm sorry you had to see me that way", I assumed everyone was on board with the fact that MiB was the Smoke Monster. If in any instance of someone debating with me they felt that I was misrepresenting their idea by assuming we were talking about the Column of Black Smoke, which I put in my posts several times, They never brought it to my attention. I would have acquiesced to the fact that MiB in his original form may have not been Evil incarnate, but became that way over the course of many years due to the choices he has made.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I've alienated the masses. There is really only one person on here I have ever had a long standing gripe with, and I think we both eventually saw each other as immovable forces. The problem I had with her wasn't even really MiB being evil. It was more the MiB is NOT David Shepherd Argument that started all that off.

I think you are getting a little to wound up and losing the point of your argument. I have agreed that MiB was born good like everyone else. When he was in his late thirties or so he was pushed into the Light out of Revenge, after he killed out of Revenge, and what came out was Evil. I will not stop referring to him as MiB simply because of that though. Take a second and let that sink in because I AM AGREEING WITH YOU (stressing not yelling).
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 12, 2010, 02:14:00 PM
Really all we are doing at this point is guessing. We don't know for sure what any of this is going to mean in the end. I think a lot of good points have been made. No need to take offense in others opinions or if they disagree with you. I mean I post some crazy ideas on here all the time and get torn apart, but it's all good.  ;D It's good healthy debate
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 02:15:49 PM
not getting wound up, you had YOUR turn last week when you posted your PROOF thread.... now MIB has been killed and whats left of him is laying as an adam and eve memorial leaves the idea that MIB is EVIL a dead issue... he killed a fake woman who raised him on untruths and selfishness... left alone to follow his path of Leaving he would have entered the real world a human who can make his own mistakes... but his head was smashed against a rock, his family and friends murdered and his lifelong goal of transporting himself off the island buried ... so in a fit of rage he killed the person rersponsible... EVIL nope... VENGENT yes.. and he died feeling bad for her death...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 02:21:14 PM
Its amazing how we take things for granted. Things like family, friends, capitalization, puncuation. Yeah I had my time last week and I got more this week too. We see that MiB started out as good, and now all the good in him has been sucked dry by the Light on the Island and has left us with only evil. MiB was forced into it by his brother, but he is nonetheless left as Evil Incarnate ;D
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: zeekloveslost on May 12, 2010, 02:21:25 PM
For the most part I assumed that everyone was on the same page with our acronyms and when Jacob said to MiB (As Locke), "So I guess you found your loophole" I assumed we all knew MiB was impersonating John Locke.

In this case, your assumption was incorrect.  Some interpreted this as The Smoke impersonating John Locke, which is different than MIB impersonating John Locke. I think that is the point that Oz was making.

Also, you're really mean to everyone. Repeatedly. You, personally, are my least favorite part of the Lost experience and I dread coming across your posts on these forums each week.  You have not only offended Opie and Oz. You are mean to most of the people you respond to.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 02:27:18 PM
you post as if your wanting people to write something about MIB you can attack... and your opinion is far different from mine...
the way i see the jacob /mib relationship was much like ben and juliet... someone being kept AGAINST there will... MIb wants off... so let him go... now i was defenately under the assumption that MIB was still alive much like jacob is, all be it like the bible where man lives to be 700+ years old somehow.. i have held onto the notion that smokey is a cerebus last resort used as a security system ( once initiated by ben by uncorking)... so whatever way you spin it, MIB is NOT Smokey... just another dead body used to further its cause...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 02:35:24 PM
For the most part I assumed that everyone was on the same page with our acronyms and when Jacob said to MiB (As Locke), "So I guess you found your loophole" I assumed we all knew MiB was impersonating John Locke.

In this case, your assumption was incorrect.  Some interpreted this as The Smoke impersonating John Locke, which is different than MIB impersonating John Locke. I think that is the point that Oz was making.

Also, you're really mean to everyone. Repeatedly. You, personally, are my least favorite part of the Lost experience and I dread coming across your posts on these forums each week.  You have not only offended Opie and Oz. You are mean to most of the people you respond to.

Yeah I know I am a jerk, but what can I say? Some people bring out the debate in me. Sorry if I offend you, but I rarely go quietly. If I disagree with someone I am going to let them know and I'll let them know why. OP and I first argued about MiB being David Shepherd which was drilled into every thread on here whether it was part of the topic or not. As for Oz, I am perfectly willing to back up why it is that I maintain that MiB is the antagonist of the show and that is all that I am doing. If you can help me find where I am "Repeatedly mean" in my responses to him BEFORE I was told to "Assume the Position" I am all ears.  Also where is it stated that I am not allowed to be offended by others and respond accordingly?
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 02:44:24 PM
MIB is NOT Smokey... just another dead body used to further its cause...

MIB is Smokey though. If it is impossible for Jacob to kill his brother, then how could he have died at the cave? He didn't. I said this on another post, but I'll repeat it here, just because we see MIB's body doesn't mean MIB is dead. His life just changed forms, much like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. The caterpillar doesn't die, it just changes form.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 02:49:33 PM
So smokey is using MIBS last Human memory... because anything new is longer his own... which is to get off the island... but Smokey is the one KILLING in masses using MIBS form...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 12, 2010, 02:54:19 PM
So smokey is using MIBS last Human memory... because anything new is longer his own... which is to get off the island... but Smokey is the one KILLING in masses using MIBS form...

Still think Casey is on to something that Jacob cannot kill his brother. So when MiB went into the Light, the Light ripped all that was good from him like a magnet, and now all that is left is the evil.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 03:02:28 PM
MIB is NOT Smokey... just another dead body used to further its cause...

MIB is Smokey though. If it is impossible for Jacob to kill his brother, then how could he have died at the cave? He didn't. I said this on another post, but I'll repeat it here, just because we see MIB's body doesn't mean MIB is dead. His life just changed forms, much like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. The caterpillar doesn't die, it just changes form.

I am more feeling after thinking about last night's episode if the whole MIB = Smokie warrants more questioning.  We saw the smoke only after MIB was pushed into the light - into the place that held something worse than death (according to fake mom).  I made the assumption that the smoke monster was MIB - somehow changed by his presence in the light - we even saw his "discarded shell" of human form left behind.  The smoke monster can take the shape of other corpses:  Jack's father, and Locke.  But is Smokie still MIB at heart?  

Jacob released the smoke monster on the island through his evil/bad/wrong actions.  Now Jacob must keep him contained on the island AND still keep people from finding the light.  However, Jacob brings people to the island - presumable as potential candidates to replace him - or to play his game with Smokie who for the purposes here "is" MIB?  It seems to me keeping Smokie locked away, and keeping people from finding the light would be much easier if Jacob would not bring people to the island.  

I take all this to mean that Jacob's job sucks - he wants to stop doing it - he would be as thankful as was Fake mom ("thank you") if he could end it.  Here is the twist:  when MIB says he badly wants to kill Jacob, we assumed that was an evil act.  Instead, couldn't it be that releasing him from the burden of guardian would be welcome as it was for FOM?  Killing Jacob is the final act of kindness he can perform - an act precluded by the covenant formed with Jacob and Fake mom with the wine.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: sobrien on May 12, 2010, 03:05:09 PM
So smokey is using MIBS last Human memory... because anything new is longer his own... which is to get off the island... but Smokey is the one KILLING in masses using MIBS form...

Still think Casey is on to something that Jacob cannot kill his brother. So when MiB went into the Light, the Light ripped all that was good from him like a magnet, and now all that is left is the evil.

How about not "evil" but untempered desire.  MIB's last desire was to leave, so that is all that remained of him?
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:09:35 PM
So smokey is using MIBS last Human memory... because anything new is longer his own... which is to get off the island... but Smokey is the one KILLING in masses using MIBS form...

Still think Casey is on to something that Jacob cannot kill his brother. So when MiB went into the Light, the Light ripped all that was good from him like a magnet, and now all that is left is the evil.

How about not "evil" but untempered desire.  MIB's last desire was to leave, so that is all that remained of him?

I like where you guys are going with this line of thought. So to bring in a Star Wars metaphor (which is a 1st for me, I know), MIB is kind of like Anakin turning into Darth Vader, where his own desire and dark side come to the surface and overpower and good that was left in him. So, I could kind of see an Obi-Wan line from Jacob talking about his brother, "He is more Smoke now than man, twisted and evil."
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 03:10:38 PM
Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:16:34 PM
Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

Good question. My theory on that is Jacob got the ability to leave the Island as soon as he took his Mother's job as protector. She clearly had some pretty special abilities, and the whole wine drinking ceremony likely passed those abilities over to Jacob. At the same time, I'm not sure Jacob can exactly come and go as he pleases because he was still tied to the Island as the protector. He could probably leave the Island, only not for any extent of time.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 03:21:47 PM
i think giving smokey human abilities to maneuver / hold things. And to show a donkey wheel that tosses you out somehwere else in the world was a fairly major MISTAKE on TPTB's part.... if they left it like the movie ghost where if you concentrate enough you can kick a can then it would leave no doubt that smokey was indeed incapacitated enough that heaving a wheel a few notches is IMPOSSIBLE, but to show smokey in human form snapping necks and holding babies and down in the FDW hole makes me and i imagine most wonder... WHY not just turn the damm wheel!!!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: BobBX542 on May 12, 2010, 03:23:59 PM
Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

I kind of had a theory, though I never posted it, because I wasn't sure where and when is appropriate, but whatever. I thought that maybe Jacob wasn't actually leaving the island, but rather he was interacting with the people via the mirror. I know it's kind of far fetched, but I mean if you're willing to go on the trip that says the guy has a magic mirror/lighthouse, then you might as well go the extra mile and believe that he is using the magic mirror in this manner.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 03:26:36 PM
i think giving smokey human abilities to maneuver / hold things. And to show a donkey wheel that tosses you out somehwere else in the world was a fairly major MISTAKE on TPTB's part.... if they left it like the movie ghost where if you concentrate enough you can kick a can then it would leave no doubt that smokey was indeed incapacitated enough that heaving a wheel a few notches is IMPOSSIBLE, but to show smokey in human form snapping necks and holding babies and down in the FDW hole makes me and i imagine most wonder... WHY not just turn the damm wheel!!!

Perhaps he has tried turning the wheel, but he didn't warp anywhere. We did see him as Christian when Locke turned the wheel, so he knew about the place. My guess is that it didn't work the same way the dynomite didn't work when Richard tried to kill himself.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on May 12, 2010, 03:27:43 PM
It seems to me like the question of good and evil is fairly moot between Jacob and his brother.  There never was really a "good" one or a "bad" one.  They were brothers who wanted different things.  That being said, the smoke is evil.  Whether it is the dark side of the scale torn from MIB in the Light, or incarnation of evil expelled by the light...the Smoke is evil.  (I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the smoke would be the evil incarnate Dogen was talking about?)  
Asking is Jacob is good or evil isn't that important for me... he is there to protect the Light of the island...a rite passed down to him from the previous protector.  
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 12, 2010, 03:29:03 PM
Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

I kind of had a theory, though I never posted it, because I wasn't sure where and when is appropriate, but whatever. I thought that maybe Jacob wasn't actually leaving the island, but rather he was interacting with the people via the mirror. I know it's kind of far fetched, but I mean if you're willing to go on the trip that says the guy has a magic mirror/lighthouse, then you might as well go the extra mile and believe that he is using the magic mirror in this manner.
I actually like this theory of him leaving via the lighthouse. I never thought of something like that. I like the idea that the Lighthouse was used for more than something than spying on people. Good Idea!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
i like this idea.... and i wish theyd have shown the lighthouse , even if it was at a distance in a few seasons back around when the sailboat ambush saw the "foot"...
but jacks sentence when arriving at the lighthouse was something to the effect of :-
"why havent we ever noticed this thing before"... meaning it was invisible to everyone until jacobs demise... leaves it as a viewing station and quite possibly could have been used to talk/interact with candidates, much like we are seeing mirrors galore in the ALT timelines, like they are remebering having conversations thru the mirrors before hand... this would be more believable than someone tapping them on the shoulder and steering them with whispers in the ear and paying for stolen mechandise...

alas im looking forward to getting my lost days back now, cause the thinking alone is getting me testy!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: lostlady on May 12, 2010, 03:31:19 PM
Will we ever find out how jacobs allowed to come and go from the island at will, yet his leash on smokey seems like he cant even cross from one island to another.... its probably the only thing i care much about anymore as the other mysteries are just going to remain debateable...

I kind of had a theory, though I never posted it, because I wasn't sure where and when is appropriate, but whatever. I thought that maybe Jacob wasn't actually leaving the island, but rather he was interacting with the people via the mirror. I know it's kind of far fetched, but I mean if you're willing to go on the trip that says the guy has a magic mirror/lighthouse, then you might as well go the extra mile and believe that he is using the magic mirror in this manner.
I actually like this theory of him leaving via the lighthouse. I never thought of something like that. I like the idea that the Lighthouse was used for more than something than spying on people. Good Idea!

That's true. It is probably something like this. Remember Jacob used to 'watch' his brother all the time. It's the same idea as 'watching' and then interacting with people through the lighthouse
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 03:32:37 PM
i think giving smokey human abilities to maneuver / hold things. And to show a donkey wheel that tosses you out somehwere else in the world was a fairly major MISTAKE on TPTB's part.... if they left it like the movie ghost where if you concentrate enough you can kick a can then it would leave no doubt that smokey was indeed incapacitated enough that heaving a wheel a few notches is IMPOSSIBLE, but to show smokey in human form snapping necks and holding babies and down in the FDW hole makes me and i imagine most wonder... WHY not just turn the damm wheel!!!

Perhaps he has tried turning the wheel, but he didn't warp anywhere. We did see him as Christian when Locke turned the wheel, so he knew about the place. My guess is that it didn't work the same way the dynomite didn't work when Richard tried to kill himself.

True but if your saying it didnt work because hes tied to the island, then locke who did turn it was a candidate tied to the island and he poofed to tansania or wherever no problem...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on May 12, 2010, 03:34:30 PM
I don't think I actually weighed in on this idea, but I don't think that Jacob's brother was bad. He just wanted to be back with his people, was mad about being lied to, and wanted to leave the island. I do think that that person is gone once the smoke monster took over. John Locke wasn't a bad person, now that his body has been taken over-whatever took him over is bad. I hope that makes sense all this debating is confusing me  :D
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: lostlady on May 12, 2010, 03:35:31 PM
I don't think I actually weighed in on this idea, but I don't think that Jacob's brother was bad. He just wanted to be back with his people, was mad about being lied to, and wanted to leave the island. I do think that that person is gone once the smoke monster took over. John Locke wasn't a bad person, now that his body has been taken over-whatever took him over is bad. I hope that makes sense all this debating is confusing me  :D

exactly! Smokey is evil! Jacob's brother and John Locke were flawed but not evil!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: ozman776 on May 12, 2010, 03:38:21 PM
I assumed that MIBs remark to jacob about his people being bad/corrupt/destructive was because he wanted to leave and his family (im assuming his dad was shipwrecked too) /friends were travelling to a new world to start a new life and just wanted to set up camp to live out days ( not look for rescue or a way off)...
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on May 12, 2010, 04:09:42 PM
I assumed that MIBs remark to jacob about his people being bad/corrupt/destructive was because he wanted to leave and his family (im assuming his dad was shipwrecked too) /friends were travelling to a new world to start a new life and just wanted to set up camp to live out days ( not look for rescue or a way off)...

It must have been quite a culture shock for him to see the settlement.  He has lived his whole life under his mother's wing.  Mom was rearing them up to be possible protectors after her reign was over.  (What did one snowman say to the other snowman?)  They lived a life that was sheltered.  It was probably surprising to see a society where people get drunk, fights break out, people fish for their own fish etc.  I guess he was so ready to see the bad in humanity (thanks, mom!) he over looked a lot of the good.  He did touch on their thirst for knowledge, their curiosity.  After what we saw it's pretty easy to see why maybe Jacob hates technology!
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: nomteticus on May 12, 2010, 07:45:27 PM
I assumed that MIBs remark to jacob about his people being bad/corrupt/destructive was because he wanted to leave and his family (im assuming his dad was shipwrecked too) /friends were travelling to a new world to start a new life and just wanted to set up camp to live out days ( not look for rescue or a way off)...

It must have been quite a culture shock for him to see the settlement.  He has lived his whole life under his mother's wing.  Mom was rearing them up to be possible protectors after her reign was over.  (What did one snowman say to the other snowman?)  They lived a life that was sheltered.  It was probably surprising to see a society where people get drunk, fights break out, people fish for their own fish etc.  I guess he was so ready to see the bad in humanity (thanks, mom!) he over looked a lot of the good.  He did touch on their thirst for knowledge, their curiosity.  After what we saw it's pretty easy to see why maybe Jacob hates technology!

Great reasoning. The best part of the episode for me is the children asking Mother "what's a ship?", "what's dead?" or "what's across the sea"?
MIB's only crime is being curious. His mother was acting almost like that Austrian psycho Fritzl (except for the raping part), keeping the kids away from the light (and I'm not talking about the cave here). The 'knowledge is bad' state of mind seems to have infected Mother and then Jacob. The episode was great at character level (that Titus guy can sure act, and his motives really made sense) but partially failed at mythological level by explaining everything with "it's magic", "you can make your own rules" etc.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: Justin on May 12, 2010, 09:36:52 PM
for the ppl that think the smoke monster is not the man in black...i disagree.
smokey still wants to leave. still cant kill jacob. sure it was taking the form of his old body in "the incident" and "ab aterno", but its still his own soul. he turned into the smoke monster.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: CaseyMac on May 12, 2010, 11:05:45 PM
for the ppl that think the smoke monster is not the man in black...i disagree.
smokey still wants to leave. still cant kill jacob. sure it was taking the form of his old body in "the incident" and "ab aterno", but its still his own soul. he turned into the smoke monster.

Well said. Remember the butterfly we saw in Ab Aeterno? Seemed a bit random at the time, but now it looks like excellent symbolism, doesn't it?
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 13, 2010, 10:36:38 AM
for the ppl that think the smoke monster is not the man in black...i disagree.
smokey still wants to leave. still cant kill jacob. sure it was taking the form of his old body in "the incident" and "ab aterno", but its still his own soul. he turned into the smoke monster.

Well said. Remember the butterfly we saw in Ab Aeterno? Seemed a bit random at the time, but now it looks like excellent symbolism, doesn't it?

Yeah I like this.
Title: Re: MIB's the GOOD GUY now...
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on May 13, 2010, 02:11:04 PM
for the ppl that think the smoke monster is not the man in black...i disagree.
smokey still wants to leave. still cant kill jacob. sure it was taking the form of his old body in "the incident" and "ab aterno", but its still his own soul. he turned into the smoke monster.

Well said. Remember the butterfly we saw in Ab Aeterno? Seemed a bit random at the time, but now it looks like excellent symbolism, doesn't it?
BAM!  Let me just pick my brains up off of the floor!