Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x08 => Topic started by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 08:13:01 AM

Title: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 08:13:01 AM
Kinda interesting how Jacob basically baptized Richard by dunking him in the water, more or less saying he was "born again" after that (since Richard thought he was already dead). And they even had Jacob giving Richard eternal life after the baptism lol.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: grizn0 on March 24, 2010, 08:26:42 AM
I don't think it was a baptism. I think he was just proving to Richard that he wasn't really dead.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 08:31:15 AM
I don't think it was a baptism. I think he was just proving to Richard that he wasn't really dead.
It was symbolism, I mean. Jacob "baptized" Richard by dunking him in the water, made Richard feel like he was actually alive after believing he was really dead ("born again"). And then gave him eternal life. It's not a coincidence, trust me lol :).
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: taki1379 on March 24, 2010, 08:31:37 AM
Yeah. Baptisim is alot less abrasive.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 08:34:12 AM
Yeah. Baptisim is alot less abrasive.
It.
Was.
Symbolism lol.

Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lostjava on March 24, 2010, 08:42:44 AM
I don't think it was a baptism. I think he was just proving to Richard that he wasn't really dead.

Exactly.  Richard thought he was dead and in hell.   Jacob was proving to him that he could die, thus alive and not in hell.  It was a dramatic way to prove a point. 

Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 08:54:41 AM
I don't think it was a baptism. I think he was just proving to Richard that he wasn't really dead.

Exactly.  Richard thought he was dead and in hell.   Jacob was proving to him that he could die, thus alive and not in hell.  It was a dramatic way to prove a point. 

Oh, sheesh lol. Ok, read this from a TV critic from the Los Angeles Times about last night's episode:

"...the Island is not Hell, and the people on it are not dead, as Jacob proves when he practically baptizes Richard to show him he's still alive. (And, notice, once Richard is done being baptized, he's reborn as a servant of his new lord. Hmmm.)"

Again...as I said in the OP: it's interesting how Jacob "basically baptizes" Richard. I can't be the only one here who caught the symbolism lol.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Writers_Strike on March 24, 2010, 08:56:37 AM
I didn't want to start a new topic so I'll post it here.

Ricardo has been on the island (off the ship) for a day and knows more then all the others combined. He knows how the Black Rock got to the middl eof the jungle, what happened to the statue, where Jacob lives, that MiB is Smokey, what Jacobs role on the island is, Jacob brought him and others before him to the island for a galactic test, why he hasn't aged in 150 years, who was captain of the Black Rock. I am sure there is more this is all I can think of. It took the rest of the islanders 5 seasons to get the knowlege Richard received in 1 day.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 09:02:32 AM
I didn't want to start a new topic so I'll post it here.

Ricardo has been on the island (off the ship) for a day and knows more then all the others combined. He knows how the Black Rock got to the middl eof the jungle, what happened to the statue, where Jacob lives, that MiB is Smokey, what Jacobs role on the island is, Jacob brought him and others before him to the island for a galactic test, why he hasn't aged in 150 years, who was captain of the Black Rock. I am sure there is more this is all I can think of. It took the rest of the islanders 5 seasons to get the knowlege Richard received in 1 day.
Which probably explains why he was always so calm lol :)
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lostjava on March 24, 2010, 09:05:07 AM
Ricardo has been on the island (off the ship) for a day and knows more then all the others combined.

I guess you've got to meet the right peopole at the right time.

Oh, sheesh lol. Ok, read this from a TV critic from the Los Angeles Times about last night's episode:
Again...as I said in the OP: it's interesting how Jacob "basically baptizes" Richard. I can't be the only one here who caught the symbolism lol.

I think you're reading too much into it.  But of course, you are welcome to your view points, since there are many to be had in the world of Lost.  But I still just think he was proving a point, nothing more.  And it was probably more effective than beating him with a rock.

Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 09:21:32 AM
I think you're reading too much into it.  But of course, you are welcome to your view points, since there are many to be had in the world of Lost.  But I still just think he was proving a point, nothing more.  And it was probably more effective than beating him with a rock.
I can't see how I'm reading too much into it since Lost is pack to the brim with religious symbolism. The symbolic baptism in this case was incredibly blatant, to be honest. Not sure why this moment should be any different than the multitude of others during the show's run.

And just to be clear, it was the writers who came up with the symbolism, not Jacob lol. Jacob's intent during that moment isn't really the issue (although it could be argued successfully that Jacob's intent was indeed to have Richard "reborn", so to speak). My comment was about the writers using the symbolism of baptism to illustrate what was going on between Jacob and Richard, which I thought was pretty clever. I'm glad the TV critic saw it as well, at least. ;)
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: bluesmanjay on March 24, 2010, 09:39:10 AM
I think you're reading too much into it.  But of course, you are welcome to your view points, since there are many to be had in the world of Lost.  But I still just think he was proving a point, nothing more.  And it was probably more effective than beating him with a rock.
I can't see how I'm reading too much into it since Lost is pack to the brim with religious symbolism. The symbolic baptism in this case was incredibly blatant, to be honest. Not sure why this moment should be any different than the multitude of others during the show's run.

Dude...I got to tell you. I saw it too. The first thing I thought was, "Wow he's baptizing him, and he's now born again!"
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Writers_Strike on March 24, 2010, 09:42:46 AM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lovinlost on March 24, 2010, 10:14:24 AM
I also think it was quite interesting how closely that scene mimicked the scene where Sayid is "dipped" and held into the Temple Healing Springs.  That was my first thought when it was happening.  I have to agree, however, that symbolic baptism is very evident.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Creflo on March 24, 2010, 10:44:54 AM
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lovinlost on March 24, 2010, 10:46:57 AM
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.

Well, it's pretty tough to ignore the Biblical references when Ricardus himself was reading a Bible.  LOL
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Ladybug on March 24, 2010, 10:56:21 AM
Kinda interesting how Jacob basically baptized Richard by dunking him in the water, more or less saying he was "born again" after that (since Richard thought he was already dead). And they even had Jacob giving Richard eternal life after the baptism lol.
i'm with you.  i loved the scene.  this whole show has been filled with Biblical symbolism, we've been discussing it for years now.  last night's "baptism" (and what happened afterward) was so in your face, i don't see how anyone can dissagree with you!
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Ladybug on March 24, 2010, 10:58:02 AM
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.

Well, it's pretty tough to ignore the Biblical references when Ricardus himself was reading a Bible.  LOL
Amen!  That & how important isabella's cross was to the story.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lovinlost on March 24, 2010, 11:00:39 AM
Yes, it is symbolic Baptism.  Baptism is itself symbolic.  Many people are so resistant to any kind of Biblical reference that they refuse to acknowledge its presence, as if to do so would be some kind of admission of faith...which it is not.  This was similar to the way that many folks reacted when I started bringing up time travel after Desmond's first "Flashes before his eyes" experience...afraid that acknowledging the presence of time travel would make them a sci-fi nerd...which it doesn't.

Well, it's pretty tough to ignore the Biblical references when Ricardus himself was reading a Bible.  LOL
Amen!  That & how important isabella's cross was to the story.

Ah, yes.  The cross necklace.  I'm sorry, but Ricardus's backstory was so freakin' incredibly awesome.  I am still riding the high.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Folly529 on March 24, 2010, 11:07:22 AM
and Amen again ;D

The biblical references, the mythology references and the sci-fi riffs are all important for contextualizing the main story.

With Richard, the depth of his religiousity is an important part of his character:

I actually found it interesting that - other than the cross - Richard makes few religious references after he arrives on the Island.  I would think the character would put Jacob's explanation into his own existing religious framework.

Maybe that whole 'we have a deal' with the Devil freaked 'im out a bit!
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Ladybug on March 24, 2010, 11:10:21 AM
and Amen again ;D

The biblical references, the mythology references and the sci-fi riffs are all important for contextualizing the main story.

With Richard, the depth of his religiousity is an important part of his character:
  • he was teaching himself English using the Bible - one could do that only if one had pretty well memorized the Bible in one's native language
  • he was more anguished by the idea of not receiving absolution from the priest than he was at the prospect of execution
  • the cross was incredibly important to him

I actually found it interesting that - other than the cross - Richard makes few religious references after he arrives on the Island.  I would think the character would put Jacob's explanation into his own existing religious framework.

Maybe that whole 'we have a deal' with the Devil freaked 'im out a bit!

i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Madam P on March 24, 2010, 11:11:56 AM
What The, just for what it's worth, I immediately saw the baptism symbolism as well.  So no, you're not alone out there.   ;)
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: BobBX542 on March 24, 2010, 11:31:01 AM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Don't go around starting too many sentences with, "I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way,..." It makes the rest of us look bad.

Kinda interesting how Jacob basically baptized Richard by dunking him in the water, more or less saying he was "born again" after that (since Richard thought he was already dead). And they even had Jacob giving Richard eternal life after the baptism lol.

To tell you the truth, I at first thought it was just Jacob being dramatic, but after the whole scene was over, and I thought about, the baptism thing hit me over the head like a ton of bricks. I was actually shocked at how I could have missed it the first time around LOL.

i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.

Ladybug, please tell me this is sarcasm. Please. How can you say we don't know enough to know if he's religious or not?? He was not only reading a bible and praying, but like Folly pointed out, he was teaching him self English by reading the bible, which means he must have, at some point memorized his Spanish bible. On top of that, a Catholic Priest comes to his cell, and Richard asks for absolution and forgiveness. Then, when the priest tells him that he will go to hell because he has no time to make pennance for murder, you can see how upset Richard is. It is plainly obvious that Richard was a die hard Catholic.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Creflo on March 24, 2010, 11:36:08 AM
By "in the past" I think she meant previous episodes, not 19th century.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: vickilynn on March 24, 2010, 11:42:51 AM
I guess the scene works on both fronts. It wasn't a literal baptism though. I'm not sure Jacob is a "Christian" - to say I don't think he is part of that religion. It could have been symbolic to Richard though. I'm thinking that because Richards religion was so important to him (in the time and geography of his real life, it was very important, especially to peons) that what he sees and experiences is filtered through his belief system. I for one do not believe in a literal place called Hell, but if you do, then I can see why you would think you're in Hell after what Richard experienced.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lostandfree on March 24, 2010, 12:13:50 PM
I guess the scene works on both fronts. It wasn't a literal baptism though. I'm not sure Jacob is a "Christian" - to say I don't think he is part of that religion. It could have been symbolic to Richard though. I'm thinking that because Richards religion was so important to him (in the time and geography of his real life, it was very important, especially to peons) that what he sees and experiences is filtered through his belief system. I for one do not believe in a literal place called Hell, but if you do, then I can see why you would think you're in Hell after what Richard experienced.

It wasn't a symbolic baptism for Jacob or for Richard.  It was symbolic for us.  I don't think either of them were thinking of it this way at the time.  It was just something interesting for us to catch.

WhatThe I get you!
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: MachThree on March 24, 2010, 12:28:32 PM
I didn't want to start a new topic so I'll post it here.

Ricardo has been on the island (off the ship) for a day and knows more then all the others combined. He knows how the Black Rock got to the middl eof the jungle, what happened to the statue, where Jacob lives, that MiB is Smokey, what Jacobs role on the island is, Jacob brought him and others before him to the island for a galactic test, why he hasn't aged in 150 years, who was captain of the Black Rock. I am sure there is more this is all I can think of. It took the rest of the islanders 5 seasons to get the knowlege Richard received in 1 day.
True - but what happened I think is:

a) Jacob, over time, brings lots of people to the island, and they all die
b) Smokey declares he wants to kill Jacob and find a loophole (season 5 finale)
c) Smokey makes his first attempt at finding a loophole - a somewhat clumsy attempt where he tries to scare Ricardo straight out into killing Jacob.  The attempt fails.
d) I'm speculating, but... Smokey learns from his mistake.  The next time he has a chance to use someone else to kill Jacob, he plans it much better, is much more deliberate about it.  He doesn't just reveal himself willy-nilly, instead he plots and plans, and Jacob himself remains in seclusion, trying to not interfere and letting Ricardus do it for him.  So no one learns anything for a long time.

Oh, to heck with it.  It wouldn't have been much of a show had the 815'ers done everything in a day, would it?  I can accept a little less reality in exchange for a little more story.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: laklost on March 24, 2010, 12:45:15 PM
The most significant aspect of all this to me was to hold up next to it Dogen's trying to revive Sayid.  Was he unable to do it because Smokey had ruined the water?  Had the people at the Temple turned Jacob's act of baptizing Richard into a kind of religious rite that future candidates had to undergo?  They wouldn't know what the water would do - bring the person to life in Jacob's will or in MIB's - until the person acted.  I wonder if at one point all the water on the island was pure - and therefore life giving - but it became corruptible due to Smokey's crimes.  The people in the Temple seemed to be playing at Last Stand but it looks like the Losties are really the final checkpoint.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: infrared41 on March 24, 2010, 12:46:04 PM
The religious symbolism was so thick you couldn't see the jungle for it. There was the "baptism" which was obvious. Then there was Richard digging up and donning the cross right before Hurley comes along to make sure Richard stays on the "righteous" path. There was Isabella giving Richard the "absolution" he had sought for so long. Hell, Jacob giving Richard "eternal life" was straight out of The Bible. If people didn't see the religious symbolism last night then they were either not paying attention or they were watching CSI or whatever is on against LOST.  :)
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: SQUIRT199 on March 24, 2010, 01:14:25 PM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Don't go around starting too many sentences with, "I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way,..." It makes the rest of us look bad.


The rest of us atheists?
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: SQUIRT199 on March 24, 2010, 01:15:14 PM
I liked Sawyers line last episode

"God has nothing to do with it lady"
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Ladybug on March 24, 2010, 01:17:17 PM
i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.

Ladybug, please tell me this is sarcasm. Please. How can you say we don't know enough to know if he's religious or not?? He was not only reading a bible and praying, but like Folly pointed out, he was teaching him self English by reading the bible, which means he must have, at some point memorized his Spanish bible. On top of that, a Catholic Priest comes to his cell, and Richard asks for absolution and forgiveness. Then, when the priest tells him that he will go to hell because he has no time to make pennance for murder, you can see how upset Richard is. It is plainly obvious that Richard was a die hard Catholic.
By "in the past" I think she meant previous episodes, not 19th century.
that's exactly what i meant.  until LAST NIGHT we didn't really know much about richard's religiousness.  the original statement (made by folly) was that we haven't seen much of richard's religiouness since his arrival on the island.  i think that we, as viewers, just haven't had that side of richard shown to us.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on March 24, 2010, 01:24:41 PM
I liked Sawyers line last episode

"God has nothing to do with it lady"

I was thinking about that line last night...lots of devil talk and not much God talk. Perhaps God indeed has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 24, 2010, 01:36:40 PM
I didn't want to start a new topic so I'll post it here.

Ricardo has been on the island (off the ship) for a day and knows more then all the others combined. He knows how the Black Rock got to the middl eof the jungle, what happened to the statue, where Jacob lives, that MiB is Smokey, what Jacobs role on the island is, Jacob brought him and others before him to the island for a galactic test, why he hasn't aged in 150 years, who was captain of the Black Rock. I am sure there is more this is all I can think of. It took the rest of the islanders 5 seasons to get the knowlege Richard received in 1 day.

well mainly because he was directly connected to all those things, the black rock info and how the stature was broken and was directly told by jacob and mib their stories... it took the 815ers 5 seasons because 1) they werent looking for that info, and B) nobody was there to inform them... duh.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Writers_Strike on March 24, 2010, 01:38:01 PM
I liked Sawyers line last episode

"God has nothing to do with it lady"

I was thinking about that line last night...lots of devil talk and not much God talk. Perhaps God indeed has nothing to do with it.

I guess that depends on what God you are talking about. Jacob and the island have been there long before the Christian God had any revelance in the world. The statue probably predates Jesus by 1,000 years or more. Heck, the giant statue pays homage to an Egyptian God. So before we go on a tangent about Christian symbolism and Baptisims let's not forget about other religions that have been depicted in the show.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: IFP on March 24, 2010, 02:09:39 PM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Ahh, a "Jack" amongst us. Why do you find it so hard to believe? :)
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: grizn0 on March 24, 2010, 02:13:14 PM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Ahh, a "Jack" amongst us. Why do you find it so hard to believe? :)
Why do you find it so easy? :P
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: BadRobot64 on March 24, 2010, 02:14:23 PM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Ahh, a "Jack" amongst us. Why do you find it so hard to believe? :)
Why do you find it so easy? :P

IT NEVER WAS EASY!
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lostfan777 on March 24, 2010, 03:15:05 PM
I guess that depends on what God you are talking about. Jacob and the island have been there long before the Christian God had any revelance in the world. The statue probably predates Jesus by 1,000 years or more. Heck, the giant statue pays homage to an Egyptian God. So before we go on a tangent about Christian symbolism and Baptisims let's not forget about other religions that have been depicted in the show.

The 'Christian God' is the God of all creation, not Jesus of 2000 years ago.  Jesus himself was a Jew and 'Rabbi' and so Christians follow both the old testament of the Jews and the new testament of Christ.  Christianity is fairly new in the scheme of things, but the Christian beliefs go back much further than Jesus.

Also, the Egyptian statues and writings, as well as all the other cultural remnants on the island, are there to show us just how long the island has been there and how many cultures have occupied it in the past.  They aren't there because Jacob is from ancient Egypt, or because he is Buddhist or any other religion.  They are just remnants of those who have come and died before.

I also thought it was fitting that you used the wrong word above, 'revelance' instead of 'relevance', because I have been pushing the theory of the end of days from the CHRISTIAN book of REVELATION for years now!    ;D
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: WhatThe on March 24, 2010, 03:17:23 PM
Ok, so I'm not the only one who saw the baptism symbolism afterall lol :D...Whew.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: vickilynn on March 24, 2010, 03:40:36 PM
I guess that depends on what God you are talking about. Jacob and the island have been there long before the Christian God had any revelance in the world. The statue probably predates Jesus by 1,000 years or more. Heck, the giant statue pays homage to an Egyptian God. So before we go on a tangent about Christian symbolism and Baptisims let's not forget about other religions that have been depicted in the show.

The 'Christian God' is the God of all creation, not Jesus of 2000 years ago.  Jesus himself was a Jew and 'Rabbi' and so Christians follow both the old testament of the Jews and the new testament of Christ.  Christianity is fairly new in the scheme of things, but the Christian beliefs go back much further than Jesus.

Also, the Egyptian statues and writings, as well as all the other cultural remnants on the island, are there to show us just how long the island has been there and how many cultures have occupied it in the past.  They aren't there because Jacob is from ancient Egypt, or because he is Buddhist or any other religion.  They are just remnants of those who have come and died before.

I also thought it was fitting that you used the wrong word above, 'revelance' instead of 'relevance', because I have been pushing the theory of the end of days from the CHRISTIAN book of REVELATION for years now!    ;D
There are many gods, goddesses, images humans have set up to worship. Many of the beliefs that the Christians chose to incorporate into their religion have ancient origins.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: lostfan777 on March 24, 2010, 04:01:43 PM
I guess that depends on what God you are talking about. Jacob and the island have been there long before the Christian God had any revelance in the world. The statue probably predates Jesus by 1,000 years or more. Heck, the giant statue pays homage to an Egyptian God. So before we go on a tangent about Christian symbolism and Baptisims let's not forget about other religions that have been depicted in the show.

The 'Christian God' is the God of all creation, not Jesus of 2000 years ago.  Jesus himself was a Jew and 'Rabbi' and so Christians follow both the old testament of the Jews and the new testament of Christ.  Christianity is fairly new in the scheme of things, but the Christian beliefs go back much further than Jesus.

Also, the Egyptian statues and writings, as well as all the other cultural remnants on the island, are there to show us just how long the island has been there and how many cultures have occupied it in the past.  They aren't there because Jacob is from ancient Egypt, or because he is Buddhist or any other religion.  They are just remnants of those who have come and died before.

I also thought it was fitting that you used the wrong word above, 'revelance' instead of 'relevance', because I have been pushing the theory of the end of days from the CHRISTIAN book of REVELATION for years now!    ;D
There are many gods, goddesses, images humans have set up to worship. Many of the beliefs that the Christians chose to incorporate into their religion have ancient origins.

That was my point, kinda.  I'd say that the old testament of the Jews has the similarities to other beliefs like you said, and the Christian religions have adopted them and just added the 'newer' new testament to cover arrival of Jesus.  Jews and Christians are pretty much the same up until that point, with Jews believing a messiah is yet to come and Christians believing they 'missed the boat'.  I'm no scholar, so I'm not sure what other faiths think of Jesus, but I think at least some of them believe he existed, but was just another prophet.  This is actually how I lean myself, even though I was raised Catholic and now attend a Lutheran Church.

Getting back to the show, my original point was that the 'objects' on the island were left there by people who occupied it over the centuries and, according to Jacob, all died.  They have yet to tell us who Jacob and MIB are and what their origin is, or even what MIB's name is.  Because they haven't named him yet, I think it will be a name people will know and since this is a tv show and not an internet production, I think it will be a name that common viewers will recognize without having to run to their computers to do research.  I'm still voting for a Christian foundation to the story.  It makes the most sense to me.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: vickilynn on March 24, 2010, 04:06:38 PM
I think every belief system, every culture, incorporates light and dark (good and bad)....right? I would like to think that these forces are eternal (and they're internal, we all have both potentials) and nameless - existing before names. But I think you're right; since we have Jacob, I bet the MIB name is a christian equivalent.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: BobBX542 on March 24, 2010, 05:15:21 PM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Don't go around starting too many sentences with, "I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way,..." It makes the rest of us look bad.


The rest of us atheists?

Yes.

i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.

Ladybug, please tell me this is sarcasm. Please. How can you say we don't know enough to know if he's religious or not?? He was not only reading a bible and praying, but like Folly pointed out, he was teaching him self English by reading the bible, which means he must have, at some point memorized his Spanish bible. On top of that, a Catholic Priest comes to his cell, and Richard asks for absolution and forgiveness. Then, when the priest tells him that he will go to hell because he has no time to make pennance for murder, you can see how upset Richard is. It is plainly obvious that Richard was a die hard Catholic.
By "in the past" I think she meant previous episodes, not 19th century.
that's exactly what i meant.  until LAST NIGHT we didn't really know much about richard's religiousness.  the original statement (made by folly) was that we haven't seen much of richard's religiouness since his arrival on the island.  i think that we, as viewers, just haven't had that side of richard shown to us.

Okay, I was really hoping that it was my interpretation of what you wrote, and not ACTUALLY what you wrote, because I have always respected your opinion on here, and if you were saying what I thought you were, I was going to freak out.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Ladybug on March 24, 2010, 10:06:17 PM
I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way, I saw a guy trying to drown another to prove he wasn't dead.

Don't go around starting too many sentences with, "I guess my Atheist mind doesn't think that way,..." It makes the rest of us look bad.


The rest of us atheists?

Yes.

i think we just haven't seen richard enough in the past to know if he is religious or not, or about his religious beliefs.  he's always been a background character of sorts who just helps others' stories along.  last night was our first real view of richard as richard.

Ladybug, please tell me this is sarcasm. Please. How can you say we don't know enough to know if he's religious or not?? He was not only reading a bible and praying, but like Folly pointed out, he was teaching him self English by reading the bible, which means he must have, at some point memorized his Spanish bible. On top of that, a Catholic Priest comes to his cell, and Richard asks for absolution and forgiveness. Then, when the priest tells him that he will go to hell because he has no time to make pennance for murder, you can see how upset Richard is. It is plainly obvious that Richard was a die hard Catholic.
By "in the past" I think she meant previous episodes, not 19th century.
that's exactly what i meant.  until LAST NIGHT we didn't really know much about richard's religiousness.  the original statement (made by folly) was that we haven't seen much of richard's religiouness since his arrival on the island.  i think that we, as viewers, just haven't had that side of richard shown to us.

Okay, I was really hoping that it was my interpretation of what you wrote, and not ACTUALLY what you wrote, because I have always respected your opinion on here, and if you were saying what I thought you were, I was going to freak out.
thank you.  i don't always think my thoughts through completely, so sometimes they come of as extremely wacko.  and then again, sometimes i do think them through and they are still wacko.  ie:  no time travel, kelvin is alive, christian is alive, etc. etc.
Title: Baptism?
Post by: nomteticus on March 25, 2010, 11:38:04 PM
Do you think the writers wanted to make a subtle hint at baptism when Jacob was "drowning" Richard? He was basically "born again" after that gesture, and Jacob does seem like a Jesus/John the Baptist type of guy.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: RM on March 26, 2010, 03:51:38 AM
Yeah.  I'll say that, since my mind doesn't dwell inside that framework, that it didn't actually occur to me at the time that Jacob was "baptizing" Richard.  But now that people have pointed it out, I'm quite sure TPTB intended for the audience to notice that as a symbolic baptism right before he literally gives Richard eternal life.

Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: Adriana on March 29, 2010, 02:13:27 AM
WhatThe -- just one more nod in your direction.  The baptism and eternal life was incredibly apparent to me.

The other MAJOR Christian theme that was very apparent to me was free will vs. manipulation.  There is a difference between free will, making forced choices, and making choices while being manipulated.  When people making choices under manipulation, they THINK they are making choices of their own free will, but they are being unknowingly guided toward that very choice.  In Christianity, Jacob works much like Jesus/God does -- he shows us how it is, and gives us a choice to make.  The MIB works very much like Satan -- he tells us exactly what we want to hear to either stroke our ego, or feed our fears, to make us do exactly what he intended for us to do in the first place; he manipulates us to use us for his own purposes.

I absolutely LOVED this episode, and it actually made me appreciate and sincerely like Richard a lot; it's definitely my favorite this season.
Title: Re: Jacob Baptizing Richard
Post by: RM on March 31, 2010, 03:22:14 PM
In Christianity, Jacob works much like Jesus/God does -- he shows us how it is, and gives us a choice to make.

I won't argue this depiction of Jesus/Christianity, but I don't think it's an accurate depiction of Jacob.  He is definitely not "showing people how it is".  He is providing weird clues, leaving people to guess what they are "supposed to" do.  The main Losties don't even know what they are "candidates" for.  It's hard to choose clearly when you don't even know what it is you're choosing.