Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x06 => Topic started by: CaseyMac on March 10, 2010, 03:22:50 AM

Title: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 10, 2010, 03:22:50 AM
I'm putting this as a question to you guys, because I sure as hell don't know.

When ATL Ben is talking with his dad, and he said "We never should have left the island..." Well, I may be mistaken, but Ben and his dad didn't leave before the Incident. They were still on the Island.

So, if the timeline split then, 1.) where the Incident occurred and 'whatever happened, happened' i.e. the original timeline. Or 2.) the alternate timeline was created because of Juliet setting off the nuke and sinking the Island.

Then how is it that Ben and Roger survived, and still reminisce about how things might be better if they stayed?

Is this a clue that the sideflashes we are seeing on the alternate timeline are NOT a result of the Incident?
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: IFP on March 10, 2010, 03:34:19 AM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 10, 2010, 03:37:13 AM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.

OK, but how is the Island at the bottom of the ocean then with the Dharma village and Dharma shark swimming around? My brain hurts.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: Optimus J on March 10, 2010, 03:53:25 AM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.
Let's clear that's your opinion, not a canon fact. And one that have several flaws, as the persons who set the bomb were from the alternative future, created by the bomb.
I'm putting this as a question to you guys, because I sure as hell don't know.

When ATL Ben is talking with his dad, and he said "We never should have left the island..." Well, I may be mistaken, but Ben and his dad didn't leave before the Incident. They were still on the Island.

So, if the timeline split then, 1.) where the Incident occurred and 'whatever happened, happened' i.e. the original timeline. Or 2.) the alternate timeline was created because of Juliet setting off the nuke and sinking the Island.

Then how is it that Ben and Roger survived, and still reminisce about how things might be better if they stayed?

Is this a clue that the sideflashes we are seeing on the alternate timeline are NOT a result of the Incident?
About WHEN the island sink, I have been telling since the first episode: it couldn't be happened RIGHT AFTER the bomb. We have roughly 10 years until Danielle arrival so the island can go under the sea.
Probably it happens after the Orchid energy pocket is manipulated with the Swam pocket destroyed, according my theory.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 10, 2010, 03:59:12 AM
I'm putting this as a question to you guys, because I sure as hell don't know.

When ATL Ben is talking with his dad, and he said "We never should have left the island..." Well, I may be mistaken, but Ben and his dad didn't leave before the Incident. They were still on the Island.

So, if the timeline split then, 1.) where the Incident occurred and 'whatever happened, happened' i.e. the original timeline. Or 2.) the alternate timeline was created because of Juliet setting off the nuke and sinking the Island.

Then how is it that Ben and Roger survived, and still reminisce about how things might be better if they stayed?

Is this a clue that the sideflashes we are seeing on the alternate timeline are NOT a result of the Incident?
About WHEN the island sink, I have been telling since the first episode: it couldn't be happened RIGHT AFTER the bomb. We have roughly 10 years until Danielle arrival so the island can go under the sea.
Probably it happens after the Orchid energy pocket is manipulated with the Swam pocket destroyed, according my theory.


Nice theory! I like it, but that is kind of my point. Since LA X, we have been lead to believe thats when the timelines split. It's starting to appear that may not be the case. Which leads to the major question, wtf are we really seeing in the sideflashes? (Seems we may not have the answer yet)
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: Optimus J on March 10, 2010, 04:38:13 AM
Nice theory! I like it, but that is kind of my point. Since LA X, we have been lead to believe thats when the timelines split. It's starting to appear that may not be the case. Which leads to the major question, wtf are we really seeing in the sideflashes? (Seems we may not have the answer yet)
That's another think that have been developing on my mind at each episode. I'm really not sure they are done with time manipulation, yet.
Hugo even thought that after he saw Adam & Eve in the caves.
The bomb might be only a piece of it.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: opgelost on March 10, 2010, 02:16:04 PM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.

Thank you !!!
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: IFP on March 10, 2010, 02:26:10 PM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.
Let's clear that's your opinion, not a canon fact. And one that have several flaws, as the persons who set the bomb were from the alternative future, created by the bomb.

Yes, my opinion. But no, the alternate future was not created by the bomb, it was created by Jacob, whether by his visits to the candidates as children or something entirely different. The bomb is merely another big "splash" to preserve said timeline and further delay the universe's attempt at course-correction.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: RM on March 10, 2010, 02:31:11 PM
When did Danielle land on the Island, 1988?  In the X timeline, none of this happened apparently since Ben hasn't kidnapped Alex and she only knows him as her history teacher.  Roger Linus said he and Ben left the Island, which he regrets in the timeline and Ben X shows no bitterness towards his father.  Their relationship seems completely different, yet it was bad from the start in the original timeline because Roger blamed Ben for killing his mother at birth.

So if the X timeline cleaved from the original timeline, beginning at the Incident, the Island's sinkng has to be before 1988.  Rousseau's not crazy, just working two jobs (but apparently she's a single mother still somehow).  No Purge.  Roger Linus is alive and being cared for by his son Ben.  Ethan (Goodspeed) is off-Island.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: Holland34 on March 10, 2010, 02:31:57 PM
Keep in mind that the "butterfly effect" could have caused Ben and his dad to leave the island before the bomb went off, but still be a direct result of the bomb going off.  The reason I say this is because under a certain set of assumptions (bomb goes off, our Losties never go to the island and thus never time travel back in time... which could impact any number of events that actually occur before the bomb goes off... clear as mud?)  And IF Ben and his dad left the island before the bomb went off, then we still have no real evidence as to what caused the island to submerge (ie, it could still be the bomb's fault).
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 10, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
Keep in mind that the "butterfly effect" could have caused Ben and his dad to leave the island before the bomb went off, but still be a direct result of the bomb going off.  The reason I say this is because under a certain set of assumptions (bomb goes off, our Losties never go to the island and thus never time travel back in time... which could impact any number of events that actually occur before the bomb goes off... clear as mud?)  And IF Ben and his dad left the island before the bomb went off, then we still have no real evidence as to what caused the island to submerge (ie, it could still be the bomb's fault).

Good point. I had figured that the metaphorical butterfly flapped its wings in 1977, but taking into account the timetraveling back to the 50's...well it could have a older ripple effect than I considered. Clear as mud indeed.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on March 10, 2010, 03:54:03 PM
I have been thinking something similar to the subject of this thread, but I dont think I cant state what it is I am hinting at acurately, It seems straight in my head I just cant say it.


Which timeline is Widmore coming from?
Ben and father were on the island in both timelines so maybe widmore was before also.
there is only one timeline for them
that is the one of the past 5 seasons
the Losties crashed on the island, they found a hatch and pushed buttons, 6 got off, a few stayed on the island and flashed through time,
5 of the 6 later came back
they set off the bomb, nothing happened except they flashed 30 years into the future which is where they are now, some on the beach, some at the hydra station with Flocke

Widmore is the Widmore that was there in 1950 with Richard and the H bomb, the same Widmore that ordered Ben to kill Rousseau, the same Widmore that got kicked off the island, the same Widmore who had a daughter named Penny who had been searching for her long lost love Desmond and who picked up a signal in an arctic listening post, the same Widmore that sent Kearny to the island who later killed Ben's daughter, the same Widmore who has now found the island using the info from the arctic listening post

Yeah but what if, just what if,
After the bomb detonated they became stuck in their very own time where only people on the island were in that timeline, retaining the memories of experiences they had, things they had done, but what if, those things never actually happened, still happend to them but only in thier minds, but not what you could call the "real world". lets assume for minute that the "real world" is what we are calling the flashsidways? The bomb changed the way things happened to thier past selves, and widmore is actually from the flash sideways, ben and his dad were on the island in both timlines, and in the "real world" somehow left.
It is plausible that Widmore woudl still have been there, and still desired to return.

The other timeline thing is far fetched and I dont think I am able to put into text what I mean easily.




Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: lamporium on March 10, 2010, 05:26:44 PM
In the Season 5 episodes, did we ever see Ben and his Dad on the island after the submarine left for the last time? They could have boarded the final sub, though I also don't recall seeing any footage of that either.

Please correct me if you recall any scenes for the previous statements.

With that being said, it could very well be that Ben and his father left the island on the last submarine prior to the hydrogen bomb being set off. That would mean in the ALT timeline, Ben would have a gunshot wound he received from Sayid as a child.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 10, 2010, 05:30:50 PM
^That could be the answer. The last people we saw getting on the sub were Sawyer, Juliet, and of course Kate. I'll have to go back and see how the timing works out between that and when Roger shoots Sayid when they have the bomb, but I think the sub was already away at that point.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: opgelost on March 11, 2010, 12:55:39 PM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.
Let's clear that's your opinion, not a canon fact. And one that have several flaws, as the persons who set the bomb were from the alternative future, created by the bomb.

That doesn't matter, because in time 1977 comes before 2004. So even if they first went to 2004 to go to 1977 later, 1977 allready
happened in that timeline. Like Daniel allready was born when he went to 1977, but his mother is still pregnant. It's their present, but
the island's past.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 11, 2010, 02:32:44 PM
Absolutely - the result of the incident is the timeline where the nuke negates the energy, the swan is built, and 815 crashes. This is Jacob's manipulation to preserve the island. The flash-sideways is the ORIGINAL untampered-with timeline. No island. MIB's wet dream.
Let's clear that's your opinion, not a canon fact. And one that have several flaws, as the persons who set the bomb were from the alternative future, created by the bomb.

That doesn't matter, because in time 1977 comes before 2004. So even if they first went to 2004 to go to 1977 later, 1977 allready
happened in that timeline. Like Daniel allready was born when he went to 1977, but his mother is still pregnant. It's their present, but
the island's past.

Thats one of those time paradoxes though. Kinda like Richard giving the compass to Locke in 2007, then Locke going back in time to give the compass to Richard in 1954, then Richard giving the compass back to Locke in 2007, then....It's a paradox loop.

I guess we'll have to see how it plays out to see if the Losties not crashing in 2004 creates a paradox if they were still there in 1977.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: NoraCharles on March 11, 2010, 05:17:59 PM
Everyone is assuming that the Darhma Island that Ben's father referred to was the actual same island that everyone is still on. Could have been a completely different island in that different timeline.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 11, 2010, 05:29:26 PM
Everyone is assuming that the Darhma Island that Ben's father referred to was the actual same island that everyone is still on. Could have been a completely different island in that different timeline.

LOL true. I was kinda annoyed at the Hydra satellite island, so I'm not sure how I'd react if there was a whole other special island worthy of Dharma. I might be kinda pissed, like if the show ended and it was all a dream that Jack had.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on March 11, 2010, 05:49:57 PM
Seems to me that everyone is missing the fact that before the bomb went off they tried to get everyone off the island.  The first people to go were woman and children. 

To me if your sending away all children.  You have to say hey this kid Ben is kind of a lose canon here so we have to send him away.  And look he doesnt have a mom so lets just send his dad with him.   

Very easy to understand if you ask me.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: opgelost on March 11, 2010, 05:58:23 PM
That was in the timeline where Farraday came from the future and warned Chang for the electromagnetic energy,
because his journal told him that it would destroy the island.
I don't think Farraday was there in the other timeline too.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: CaseyMac on March 11, 2010, 06:37:54 PM
Seems to me that everyone is missing the fact that before the bomb went off they tried to get everyone off the island.  The first people to go were woman and children. 

To me if your sending away all children.  You have to say hey this kid Ben is kind of a lose canon here so we have to send him away.  And look he doesnt have a mom so lets just send his dad with him.  

Very easy to understand if you ask me.

No, you are totally right on the logic part, but I'm not 100% sure it happened. We see Roger Linus shooting Sayid, then Jack and Sayid speed away like a bat outta hell in the magical Dharma van. Then, before they get to the Swan, they are intercepted by Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate who escaped from the sub that had already left.

I'm not sure there was enough time for Roger to shoot Sayid, then get to the sub with Ben.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: MachThree on March 11, 2010, 06:50:11 PM
IIRC, the last time we saw Ben on the Island in 1977 was when Kate and Sawyer brought him to Richard, and Richard took him into the temple (or a little after that when Charles Widmore visited him after Richard brought him inside of the outer walls).  Ben presumably was to have returned back to Dharmaville somehow, so that he could grow up there and then play his part in the purge, but as of the time of the incident / jughead, he hadn't returned.

As for Roger Linus, the last time we saw him in 1977 was when he shot Sayid, which was during all the confusion over the evacuation that Pierre Chang initiated. 

So to me it seems like in one timeline (the one we know and love) the incident occurs, its bad but there's no nuclear blast in 1977, and the evacuees presumably return to the island.  In the other timeline, there was no incident, but the island somehow sinks after Ben and Roger leave for unknown reasons. 
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: IFP on March 16, 2010, 05:54:38 PM
Why do people bring up the Butterfly Effect in a story that has made it a point to introduce the concept of Course Correction?
Sure, Eloise could be wrong or lying about that, but it's come up several times in the story as a foundation of this particular story's use of time travel. Course Correction = no Butterfly Effect. Quite the opposite, really.
Title: Re: 1977 Incident didn't split the timelines?
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on March 17, 2010, 12:31:21 PM
So I am not fully on board with the idea that Dimension X is the Original untampered timeline. I can see where it is plausible, and am keeping open to the idea, but I can't see how they move from here to the Loop's origin. I can see why people think the timelines may coordinate this way, but I fail to see now where the writers can go to get the Losties back on the Island now that it is obliterated in 2004. Because according to the theory that we are seeing what is essentially a flash back to the beginning of our story, the Losties we are seeing in the flash sideways' are going to eventually find their way to the island. Some have already been touched by Jacob, and if they haven't been touched by him we have to believe that he Travelled to them AFTER the point in time where he was killed by Ben. This Theory is nice when you look at the small picture of it, but I don't think the end game is going to be one where we can point to SO many things inherently wrong with the idea of it. Again I am not ruling it out, but I think the reveal is going to be far more concrete than that. One where we can point to IT as the answer to so many of our questions.